Well water and PH level

[Alexandra]

We have got a new aquarium (46 galons). Everything is set up and
ready to put the fish in for the last 3 weeks. Unfortunately we still
keep our fish (small pond fish) in a 4 gallon tank and we have not
purchased any other new fish yet, because we cannot lower the PH level
in the big tank. We are on well water and we have installed water
softener. For our small tank we get water from our the
reverse-osmosis container. This water is very good and the PH level
is correct there (7.4), but we would not have enough of this water to
fill in the big tank. We contacted the water softening company and
they say there is not much they can do about the PH level since this
is not harmful to people. We purchased some chemicals (PH level
buffer and some other "pseudo" lowering PH level chemicals) and
nothing works. The PH level stays at 8.0
Are there any other ways of lowering the PH level of water? Is this
very bad (8.0)or just "not desirable" for gold fish (actually pond
fish)? Can you advise, please.

[Charles]

On 18 Mar 2004 13:10:59 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:

>We have got a new aquarium (46 galons). Everything is set up and
>ready to put the fish in for the last 3 weeks. Unfortunately we still
>keep our fish (small pond fish) in a 4 gallon tank and we have not
>purchased any other new fish yet, because we cannot lower the PH level
>in the big tank. We are on well water and we have installed water
>softener. For our small tank we get water from our the
>reverse-osmosis container. This water is very good and the PH level
>is correct there (7.4), but we would not have enough of this water to
>fill in the big tank. We contacted the water softening company and
>they say there is not much they can do about the PH level since this
>is not harmful to people. We purchased some chemicals (PH level
>buffer and some other "pseudo" lowering PH level chemicals) and
>nothing works. The PH level stays at 8.0
>Are there any other ways of lowering the PH level of water? Is this
>very bad (8.0)or just "not desirable" for gold fish (actually pond
>fish)? Can you advise, please.


pH of 6.5 to 8.5 is fine for goldfish. Stable pH value is important,
more so than the absolute level.

If I were you I'd use the well water before the softener, The calcium
and magnesium are better for the fish than the sodium present in
softened water.

pure RO water is very tricky, it has no buffering capacity and is not
stable, it is okay to dilute the well water, or to use if you add
proper buffering salts, but not by itself.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Geezer From Freezer]

Like Charles said RO is a no no unless adding additives.

Goldfish in a 4 Gallon did you say???

[[email protected]]

pH 8 is fine, and softened water is fine as long as you use a buffer in there...
organic dolomitic limestone ... wally world used to carry this in big bags. garden
stores may have it, but be SURE it is NOT quick lime. it should be off white with
gray flecks of stuff in it. and test it by putting it into the tank first, let it
circulate for 24 hours and check the pH make sure it isnt over 8.5. Ingrid

(Alexandra) wrote:

>We have got a new aquarium (46 galons). Everything is set up and
>ready to put the fish in for the last 3 weeks. Unfortunately we still
>keep our fish (small pond fish) in a 4 gallon tank and we have not
>purchased any other new fish yet, because we cannot lower the PH level
>in the big tank. We are on well water and we have installed water
>softener. For our small tank we get water from our the
>reverse-osmosis container. This water is very good and the PH level
>is correct there (7.4), but we would not have enough of this water to
>fill in the big tank. We contacted the water softening company and
>they say there is not much they can do about the PH level since this
>is not harmful to people. We purchased some chemicals (PH level
>buffer and some other "pseudo" lowering PH level chemicals) and
>nothing works. The PH level stays at 8.0
>Are there any other ways of lowering the PH level of water? Is this
>very bad (8.0)or just "not desirable" for gold fish (actually pond
>fish)? Can you advise, please.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Alexandra]

Charles > wrote in message >...
> On 18 Mar 2004 13:10:59 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:

> pH of 6.5 to 8.5 is fine for goldfish. Stable pH value is important,
> more so than the absolute level.
>
> If I were you I'd use the well water before the softener, The calcium
> and magnesium are better for the fish than the sodium present in
> softened water.
>
> pure RO water is very tricky, it has no buffering capacity and is not
> stable, it is okay to dilute the well water, or to use if you add
> proper buffering salts, but not by itself.


Charles,
Thank you very much for your help with this question.
We have done more testing in meanwhile and it turned out that our TDS
(Total Dissolved Solids) is high, too (about 600 ppm). Normal rating
is below 400 ppm
Would you know by any chance if this could be harmful to GF.
Thanks again for your help.
Alexandra

[Alexandra]

wrote in message >...
> pH 8 is fine, and softened water is fine as long as you use a buffer in there...
> organic dolomitic limestone ... wally world used to carry this in big bags. garden
> stores may have it, but be SURE it is NOT quick lime. it should be off white with
> gray flecks of stuff in it. and test it by putting it into the tank first, let it
> circulate for 24 hours and check the pH make sure it isnt over 8.5. Ingrid


Thank you for your help and advice.

Alexandra

[Charles]

On 24 Mar 2004 08:24:11 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:

>Charles > wrote in message >...
>> On 18 Mar 2004 13:10:59 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:
>
>> pH of 6.5 to 8.5 is fine for goldfish. Stable pH value is important,
>> more so than the absolute level.
>>
>> If I were you I'd use the well water before the softener, The calcium
>> and magnesium are better for the fish than the sodium present in
>> softened water.
>>
>> pure RO water is very tricky, it has no buffering capacity and is not
>> stable, it is okay to dilute the well water, or to use if you add
>> proper buffering salts, but not by itself.
>
>
>Charles,
>Thank you very much for your help with this question.
>We have done more testing in meanwhile and it turned out that our TDS
>(Total Dissolved Solids) is high, too (about 600 ppm). Normal rating
>is below 400 ppm
>Would you know by any chance if this could be harmful to GF.
>Thanks again for your help.
>Alexandra


My city water runs from 600 to 1000 ppm and the goldfish do fine. I
wouldn't worry about it.

I tested some water from a not very good local pet shop, it read over
2000 ppm. They must have just been making up evaporation without
doing changes.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Kodiak]

Who makes a TDS test kit?
....Kodiak

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Mar 2004 08:24:11 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:
>
> >Charles > wrote in message
>...
> >> On 18 Mar 2004 13:10:59 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:
> >
> >> pH of 6.5 to 8.5 is fine for goldfish. Stable pH value is important,
> >> more so than the absolute level.
> >>
> >> If I were you I'd use the well water before the softener, The calcium
> >> and magnesium are better for the fish than the sodium present in
> >> softened water.
> >>
> >> pure RO water is very tricky, it has no buffering capacity and is not
> >> stable, it is okay to dilute the well water, or to use if you add
> >> proper buffering salts, but not by itself.
> >
> >
> >Charles,
> >Thank you very much for your help with this question.
> >We have done more testing in meanwhile and it turned out that our TDS
> >(Total Dissolved Solids) is high, too (about 600 ppm). Normal rating
> >is below 400 ppm
> >Would you know by any chance if this could be harmful to GF.
> >Thanks again for your help.
> >Alexandra
>
>
> My city water runs from 600 to 1000 ppm and the goldfish do fine. I
> wouldn't worry about it.
>
> I tested some water from a not very good local pet shop, it read over
> 2000 ppm. They must have just been making up evaporation without
> doing changes.
> --
>
> - Charles
> -
> -does not play well with others

[Charles]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:56:56 -0500, "Kodiak" >
wrote:

>Who makes a TDS test kit?
>...Kodiak
>
There are test instruments that measure conductivity and are
calibrated to read as TDS.

A recent "Pet solutions" catalog lists part number 12516921.

http://petsolutions.com/category.asp?c=1

"Thatfishplace" has an instrument listed as a conductivity meter,
their catalog number is ME0004

http://www.thatpetplace.com/

You can also measure GH and multiply by 17.8, I think it is, to get
ppm. these are all approximations to my way of thinking, the
measurements make assumptions about the mix of minerals in solution.
I don't see how any of them would measure non-ionic dissolved
substances.

If you want to get more elaborate, Cole Parmer has lots of
instrumentation.

http://www.coleparmer.com/

Our local water company puts out an annual report which more or less
agrees with the measurements I have taken.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Kodiak]

Thanks for the links Charles.
No cheap tester using reagent drops?
Second link shows TDS meter measures from 0.0 to 14pH ????
Looks like an error.

Are you saying that TDS is closely related to GH? (Assuming most of the
dissolved
solids is Calcium and Magnesium? )
...Kodiak


"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:56:56 -0500, "Kodiak" >
> wrote:
>
> >Who makes a TDS test kit?
> >...Kodiak
> >
> There are test instruments that measure conductivity and are
> calibrated to read as TDS.
>
> A recent "Pet solutions" catalog lists part number 12516921.
>
> http://petsolutions.com/category.asp?c=1
>
> "Thatfishplace" has an instrument listed as a conductivity meter,
> their catalog number is ME0004
>
> http://www.thatpetplace.com/
>
> You can also measure GH and multiply by 17.8, I think it is, to get
> ppm. these are all approximations to my way of thinking, the
> measurements make assumptions about the mix of minerals in solution.
> I don't see how any of them would measure non-ionic dissolved
> substances.
>
> If you want to get more elaborate, Cole Parmer has lots of
> instrumentation.
>
> http://www.coleparmer.com/
>
> Our local water company puts out an annual report which more or less
> agrees with the measurements I have taken.
> --
>
> - Charles
> -
> -does not play well with others

[Charles]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:01:37 -0500, "Kodiak" >
wrote:

>Thanks for the links Charles.
>No cheap tester using reagent drops?
>Second link shows TDS meter measures from 0.0 to 14pH ????
>Looks like an error.
>
>Are you saying that TDS is closely related to GH? (Assuming most of the
>dissolved
>solids is Calcium and Magnesium? )
>..Kodiak
>
>

The Calcium and Magnesium is an assumption. I suppose if you took a
great number of samples of tap water and averaged them, then you would
come up with the relationship between GH, TDS, and conductivity.

If I took my standard water and added salt, TDS and conductivity would
go up, but GH would not. If I added sugar, TDS would go up, but
neither TDS nor GH would change.

from Diana Walstad's book "In nature, water hardness usually
correlates positively with pH, salinity, specific conductance, and
alkalinity."

The TDS meters listed on the sites I posted are really measuring
conductivity and using some calibration factor to estimate TDS. You
can get meters that display the conductivity measurement, usually
specified in microSeimens.

I've never found out which is the most important, the hardness (Ca and
Mg) the conductivity, or the osmotic tension due to dissolved solids.

The test kits that measure GH are good enough for most aquaria work,
if you need to get deeper into it then having water samples
professionally tested by laboratories would be needed. that gets
expensive.




--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Alexandra]

We got our water softening company (Culligan) involved in the whole
water testing process. They measured the TDS for us. That is how we
learned that it was pretty high (600 ppm). Our water from RO system
is fine (in terms of TDS and PH). I guess there is not much we can do
about TDS in our water. Our fish will have to accept it. We will not
have enough water from the RO container (which is about 4 gallons)to
use it for our aquarium (46 gallons). Thank you all for your help and
your advice.
Alex

[Charles]

On 29 Mar 2004 12:36:41 -0800, (Alexandra) wrote:

>We got our water softening company (Culligan) involved in the whole
>water testing process. They measured the TDS for us. That is how we
>learned that it was pretty high (600 ppm). Our water from RO system
>is fine (in terms of TDS and PH). I guess there is not much we can do
>about TDS in our water. Our fish will have to accept it. We will not
>have enough water from the RO container (which is about 4 gallons)to
>use it for our aquarium (46 gallons). Thank you all for your help and
>your advice.
>Alex


I played with RO water for a while, killed a few fish. The natural
buildup of waste material reduces pH, when I finally tested mine it
was below 4.5, the low end of the test kit I had.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Charles]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:01:37 -0500, "Kodiak" >
wrote:

>Thanks for the links Charles.
>No cheap tester using reagent drops?
>Second link shows TDS meter measures from 0.0 to 14pH ????
>Looks like an error.

They fixed the error! After you posted, I sent them a note.
>
>Are you saying that TDS is closely related to GH? (Assuming most of the
>dissolved
>solids is Calcium and Magnesium? )
>..Kodiak
>
>
>"
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[[email protected]]

which is why something like "RO right " needs to be added... it is a buffer system
for use with RO water. Ingrid

Charles > wrote:
>I played with RO water for a while, killed a few fish. The natural
>buildup of waste material reduces pH, when I finally tested mine it
>was below 4.5, the low end of the test kit I had.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Private Pyle]

My tap water is 7.6, and I use Neutral Regulator to lower and buff the
ph to 7.0 in all my tanks. It's supposed to also reduce the hardness
of water, but I have never really bothered to measure it's effects on
hardness. It also works well as a decholr product, but if your on a
well, you don't have this problem. Seachem also makes a product
called Acid Regulator that can be combine with Neutral Regulator to
set ph to less that 7.0, so maybe you could try some of that to get
the ph down, and then come up with a ratio of AR/NR that you could add
during water changes to keep the ph set at your desired level.

HTH...


(Alexandra) wrote in message >...
> wrote in message >...
> > pH 8 is fine, and softened water is fine as long as you use a buffer in there...
> > organic dolomitic limestone ... wally world used to carry this in big bags. garden
> > stores may have it, but be SURE it is NOT quick lime. it should be off white with
> > gray flecks of stuff in it. and test it by putting it into the tank first, let it
> > circulate for 24 hours and check the pH make sure it isnt over 8.5. Ingrid
>
>
> Thank you for your help and advice.
>
> Alexandra