newbie queries...

[sophie]

Hi,

Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
asked all the time.

A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
these:

what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
spit it out?

is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
has now stopped.

am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
adequate/appropriate?

is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!

sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.
--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Sophie

A couple of things, and I hope you aren't too shocked about these:


1) You are massively overstocked. Your tank is roughly 14 gallons.
Goldfish require approx 10 gallons each. If you do have a comet, he can get very
long!

2) You should be testing the water quality with an ammonia, nitrite and
nitrate tester (and a ph tester too) - probably why your minnow died.
This will ultimately show you if your water changes are enough (I suspect not)


3) I'd suggest getting a gravel vac and vacumming the gravel to keep it clean
rather than removing the fish.

4) Snails do not keep tanks clean. Yes they will eat decaying food/plant (which
is a good thing)
but will excrete ammonia - additional load on tank.

5) Goldfish sucking up gravel are removing small microscopic food from it.

[[email protected]]

the tank is overstocked. dont mix GF with other species.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
change water according to the nitrate levels..
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm


sophie > wrote:

>
>Hi,
>
>Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
>asked all the time.
>
>A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
>above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
>responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
>put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
>think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
>fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
>them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
>the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
>more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
>trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
>Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
>another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
>sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
>about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
>big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
>want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
>are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
>these:
>
>what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
>spit it out?
>
>is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
>to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
>giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
>a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
>has now stopped.
>
>am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
>of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
>fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
>gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
>remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
>front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
>leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
>tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
>don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
>adequate/appropriate?
>
>is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>
>sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

sophie wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
> asked all the time.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials

> what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and
> then spit it out?

Looking for food.

> is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
> to the mix?

Yes

> is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!

Yes. Welcome to the insanity.

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> > is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>
> Yes. Welcome to the insanity.
>
> -Donald

And Donald is obviously the most insane of us all! :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Donald K]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

> "Donald K" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>>
>> Yes. Welcome to the insanity.
>
> And Donald is obviously the most insane of us all! :)

Hey, I resemble that remark!

No, I'm not addicted.

It's just that my little girl pointed out that I had some tank space and
then she pointed out a cute little clown pl3co all alone in the LFS
tank.

Well, we didn't have a clown pl3co yet and there was room in the tank...

He just sorta followed me home. And is in QT right now. (Looking much
happier than he did at the LFS).

"Opps, it happened again..."

-D
--
Axiom #2:
"Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity,
intelligence, or common sense."

[sophie]

In message >,
writes
>the tank is overstocked. dont mix GF with other species.
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
>change water according to the nitrate levels..
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm

Hi,

thank you for the reply and the links! I'd worked out that according to
the surface area/inch of fish rule that this was as many fish as I could
put in the tank, but I hadn't thought it was overstocked. If it is, I'm
certainly going to be a little annoyed with the aquatics shop, as they
assured me that this would be fine. They have a reputation as a very
good shop, too. :-(
As I've said, I will get a bigger tank in the summer - will things not
be ok until then?
nor had I realised that goldfish shouldn't be kept with other fish; the
friends I caught the bug from have kept goldfish with white clouds for
years with no problems... is there a specific reason not to do this?

thanks again,
>
>
>sophie > wrote:
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
>>asked all the time.
>>
>>A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
>>above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
>>responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
>>put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
>>think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
>>fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
>>them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
>>the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
>>more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
>>trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
>>Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
>>another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
>>sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
>>about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
>>big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
>>want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
>>are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
>>these:
>>
>>what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
>>spit it out?
>>
>>is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
>>to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
>>giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
>>a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
>>has now stopped.
>>
>>am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
>>of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
>>fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
>>gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
>>remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
>>front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
>>leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
>>tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
>>don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
>>adequate/appropriate?
>>
>>is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>>
>>sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.

--
sophie

[sophie]

In message >, Donald K
> writes
>sophie wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
>> asked all the time.
>
>http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
>
>> what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and
>> then spit it out?
>
>Looking for food.
>
>> is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
>> to the mix?
>
>Yes
>
>> is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>
>Yes. Welcome to the insanity.

thank you!
I'm starting to wonder where it will all lead. also how much of the
house I could sensibly devote to aquaria once I've had a little more
practice!

thanks for the answers,
>

--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Sophie,

Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no hidden
agenda
giving out information, fish shops do. They want your cash.

I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being and definitely
getting
the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your goldfish
could
stunt.

[Donald K]

sophie wrote:

>>> is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>>
>>Yes. Welcome to the insanity.
>
> thank you!
> I'm starting to wonder where it will all lead. also how much of the
> house I could sensibly devote to aquaria once I've had a little more
> practice!
>

Think "fish room". ;-)

Plus a pond, of course.

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[sophie]

In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
>Sophie,
>
>Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no hidden
>agenda
>giving out information,

that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
unbiased voices of experience.

> fish shops do. They want your cash.

yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
they're really helpful about stuff.
>
>I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
>I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being

is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
easily and regularly.

> and definitely
>getting
>the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
>goldfish
>could
>stunt.

I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
concentrations are high.

is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )

thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
more questions!
--
sophie

[sophie]

In message >, Larry Blanchard
> writes
>In article >,
>says...
>> You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your goldfish
>> could
>> stunt.
>>
>Don't panic Sophie, it won't happen overnight :-). And some
>have suggested that goldfish don't stunt, they just quit growing
>until they get into a bigger tank and then they resume growth.
>I don't know if that's true or not.
>
>The advice on using a test kit to determine water changes is
>good.
>
>Also, some have said that goldfish occasionally get gravel stuck
>in their mouth or throat. Some have switched to sand, some to
>nothing, and some say it's not a problem.
>
>Keeping fish is like gardening or raising children. There are
>lots of opinions on the best way to do it, and very few verified
>facts :-).

as long as the fish don't start shrieking at me when I send them to bed
early for being naughty. Seriously, though, I've heard so many different
ways of keeping fish which are very successful for different people that
I'm starting to get a bit confused.

thanks for the help. (do you post to u.r.b, or is that someone else?)

--
sophie

[Mel]

As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.
Mel.


"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> > writes
> >Sophie,
> >
> >Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no
hidden
> >agenda
> >giving out information,
>
> that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
> unbiased voices of experience.
>
> > fish shops do. They want your cash.
>
> yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
> sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
> hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
> fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
> after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
> a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
> they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
> they're really helpful about stuff.
> >
> >I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
> >I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being
>
> is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
> easily and regularly.
>
> > and definitely
> >getting
> >the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
> >goldfish
> >could
> >stunt.
>
> I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
> "stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
> out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
> concentrations are high.
>
> is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
> work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
> involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )
>
> thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
> more questions!
> --
> sophie

[sophie]

In message >, Mel
> writes
>As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
>10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.

Thanks Mel - so if this is UK gallons, I seem to have a tank the right
size for one goldfish, never mind three? The two original fish seem well
- they've grown a little since I got them, they're very shiny and
healthy looking and the colours are lovely; which I assume is good - but
I must obviously get a new tank.

>Mel.
>
>
>"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>> In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
>> > writes
>> >Sophie,
>> >
>> >Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no
>hidden
>> >agenda
>> >giving out information,
>>
>> that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
>> unbiased voices of experience.
>>
>> > fish shops do. They want your cash.
>>
>> yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
>> sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
>> hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
>> fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
>> after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
>> a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
>> they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
>> they're really helpful about stuff.
>> >
>> >I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
>> >I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being
>>
>> is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
>> easily and regularly.
>>
>> > and definitely
>> >getting
>> >the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
>> >goldfish
>> >could
>> >stunt.
>>
>> I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
>> "stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
>> out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
>> concentrations are high.
>>
>> is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
>> work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
>> involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )
>>
>> thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
>> more questions!
>> --
>> sophie
>
>

--
sophie

[[email protected]]

the surface or per inch rule doesnt apply to GF. fancy GF are bigger around (the
volume rule) and they are dirtier fish. surface doesnt matter with aeration. what
counts is amount of water and nitrate concentration (20 ppm or lower). 10 gallons
per fish of medium size fed with good food and not too much makes the amount of
nitrates can be lowered with 1 water change per week.
white clouds arent too bad, GF will eat anything fits in their mouth including
smaller fish. plecos or algae eaters will suck GF slime making GF sick and die.
Ingrid

sophie > wrote:
I'd worked out that according to
>the surface area/inch of fish rule that this was as many fish as I could
>put in the tank, but I hadn't thought it was overstocked.
>nor had I realised that goldfish shouldn't be kept with other fish; the
>friends I caught the bug from have kept goldfish with white clouds for
>years with no problems... is there a specific reason not to do this?
>
>thanks again,
>>
>>
>>sophie > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
>>>asked all the time.
>>>
>>>A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
>>>above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
>>>responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
>>>put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
>>>think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
>>>fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
>>>them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
>>>the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
>>>more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
>>>trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
>>>Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
>>>another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
>>>sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
>>>about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
>>>big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
>>>want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
>>>are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
>>>these:
>>>
>>>what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
>>>spit it out?
>>>
>>>is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
>>>to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
>>>giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
>>>a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
>>>has now stopped.
>>>
>>>am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
>>>of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
>>>fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
>>>gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
>>>remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
>>>front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
>>>leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
>>>tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
>>>don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
>>>adequate/appropriate?
>>>
>>>is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>>>
>>>sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.
>>
>>
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>www.drsolo.com
>>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

there are lots of "little books" that repeat a lot of the same old information of the
kind that also suggests goldfish bowls for goldfish .. old information that is out of
date but repeated by people who write books, not those who actually keep fish.

there are methods for beginners, that is outlined in the essentials list.
there are methods for those who are experts or just plain lucky.
Ingrid

sophie > wrote:
Seriously, though, I've heard so many different
>ways of keeping fish which are very successful for different people that
>I'm starting to get a bit confused.
>
>thanks for the help. (do you post to u.r.b, or is that someone else?)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

where is the information published? if not in a scientific publication for fish
keeping it cannot be relied upon.
mostly it is ammonia stunts fish. and not even the levels that can be measured. GF
put out a certain amount just resting and it both needs to be diluted and it needs to
be removed quickly or it can affect growth. then comes crowding and the stress that
brings. stress takes down the immune system leaving fish open to disease.

sophie > wrote:
>I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
>"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
>out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
>concentrations are high.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[sophie]

In message >,
writes
>the surface or per inch rule doesnt apply to GF. fancy GF are bigger
>around (the
>volume rule) and they are dirtier fish. surface doesnt matter with
>aeration. what
>counts is amount of water and nitrate concentration (20 ppm or lower).
>10 gallons
>per fish of medium size fed with good food and not too much makes the amount of
>nitrates can be lowered with 1 water change per week.
>white clouds arent too bad, GF will eat anything fits in their mouth including
>smaller fish. plecos or algae eaters will suck GF slime making GF sick
>and die.

I'd heard that about the plecos and algae eaters and had already decided
that if it showed signs of that it would go in a different tank to the
rest! so far, it hasn't, but at the moment it's small, as are the rest
of the fish. the inch rule I got from the website of one the UK's
goldfish societies rather than from the aquatics shop. anyway, I
obviously need a bigger tank and will change the water weekly until I
get one. I'll keep a close eye on the fish and make sure they stay
healthy, if they look like things are going wrong I'll get the bigger
tank sooner.

thank you very much for all your advice, I appreciate it.

>Ingrid
>
>sophie > wrote:
> I'd worked out that according to
>>the surface area/inch of fish rule that this was as many fish as I could
>>put in the tank, but I hadn't thought it was overstocked.
>>nor had I realised that goldfish shouldn't be kept with other fish; the
>>friends I caught the bug from have kept goldfish with white clouds for
>>years with no problems... is there a specific reason not to do this?
>>
>>thanks again,
>>>
>>>
>>>sophie > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
>>>>asked all the time.
>>>>
>>>>A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
>>>>above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
>>>>responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
>>>>put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
>>>>think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
>>>>fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
>>>>them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
>>>>the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
>>>>more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
>>>>trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
>>>>Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
>>>>another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
>>>>sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
>>>>about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
>>>>big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
>>>>want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
>>>>are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
>>>>these:
>>>>
>>>>what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
>>>>spit it out?
>>>>
>>>>is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
>>>>to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
>>>>giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
>>>>a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
>>>>has now stopped.
>>>>
>>>>am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
>>>>of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
>>>>fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
>>>>gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
>>>>remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
>>>>front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
>>>>leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
>>>>tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
>>>>don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
>>>>adequate/appropriate?
>>>>
>>>>is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!
>>>>
>>>>sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>>www.drsolo.com
>>>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>>endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.

--
sophie

[sophie]

In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
>Sophie
>
>A couple of things, and I hope you aren't too shocked about these:
>
>
>1) You are massively overstocked.

this certainly seems to be the consensus!
I bought a gravel vac today, I was surprised at how simple, effective
and cheap it was. I'll be getting a bigger tank as soon as possible. In
my defence all I can say is that I was ill-advised at the shop and the
fish are small. The longest is a bit under two inches (the comet. at
least I think it must be a comet, (s)he's standard goldfish shape but
with very long fins. pretty.)

I did honestly believe the surface area to inch of fish equation - the
other one I read gave an inch of fish per gallon of water - good job I
didn't go with that one!

I do realise snails aren't necessarily a good thing, but I'd understood
the trumpet snails which live under the gravel are more useful than
harmful in small numbers.

So far I seem to have got things comprehensively wrong. gah. (and I
don't think the ryukin is a ryukin, having looked them up I think he's a
veiltail (aka man-yu, apparently).

My consolation at the moment is that the original fish look to be
healthy, as well as shinier and a little bigger (under the circs,
possibly not a good thing) than when I first got them.

I'm very grateful for all the help I've got here - it's been fantastic.
--
sophie
on a learning curve.

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Think "fish room". ;-)
>
> Plus a pond, of course.
>

LOL, I started my pond this weekend, sheesh what a mission, big blisters on
my hands :(.....Good fun though, always space for one more hey Donald? :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Geezer From The Freezer]

sophie wrote:
>
> In message >, Mel
> > writes
> >As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
> >10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.

Sophie, thats 10US gallons. Or 8UK gallons. Changing 25% of water would be good.
I'd sugest
a bit more as you are overstocked. Maybe 30-40%

[sophie]

In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
>
>
>sophie wrote:
>>
>> In message >, Mel
>> > writes
>> >As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
>> >10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.
>
>Sophie, thats 10US gallons. Or 8UK gallons. Changing 25% of water would
>be good.
>I'd sugest
>a bit more as you are overstocked. Maybe 30-40%

thanks Geezer.
I'd planned on 25% biweekly until I get the bigger tank, I hope this
will suffice.

my main concern about the bigger tank at the moment is that the room my
son is in at the moment is too little for a proper stand - the tank is
on top of a tall chest of drawers and I'm not sure if it would take the
weight of the water in a 30+ gallon tank... His new room won't be ready
for a while (and it's nearly ceiling high with junk at the moment, so I
can't even put the fish in there until it's sorted out.)

anyway, I'm hoping that some seriously conscientious looking-after will
do for the moment.

--
sophie