Evil, evil snails

[Dark Phoenix]

Hi, all;
How does one get rid of those *(%&! mystery snails that come in with
plants?!??! I thought I was rid of them, changed the filters, sorted
through all the sea weed, did three peroxide dips on the fish to get rid of
any flukes, and now, over three weeks later, a teensy snail on the side
wall! I assume it was an egg. I also assume it's not alone, even tho it's
the only one we could find. Is there anything I can put in the tank to kill
these evil things? Or am I doomed, now that they are in there?

I'm also assuming that, if I threw these plants away (they've been in the
tank since Christmas), any more I get would be apt to be infested, too....

Help!

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[johnhuddleston]

Get a small weather loach. sucks em right out of the shells.

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, all;
> How does one get rid of those *(%&! mystery snails that come in with
> plants?!??! I thought I was rid of them, changed the filters, sorted
> through all the sea weed, did three peroxide dips on the fish to get rid
of
> any flukes, and now, over three weeks later, a teensy snail on the side
> wall! I assume it was an egg. I also assume it's not alone, even tho it's
> the only one we could find. Is there anything I can put in the tank to
kill
> these evil things? Or am I doomed, now that they are in there?
>
> I'm also assuming that, if I threw these plants away (they've been in the
> tank since Christmas), any more I get would be apt to be infested, too....
>
> Help!
>
> --
> Laurie, Dark Phoenix
>
> Error. Install universe and reboot.
>
>

[[email protected]]

I tried everything. had a special tank just for "desnailing" plants. only thing
worked was a hefty concentration of copper sulfate (like coppersafe).
move your fish out of the tank to a bucket of well aerated water with a net top to
prevent jumping. put a double dose of coppersafe in the tank overnight. remove most
of the water to get rid of it. a little left behind isnt going to hurt the GF unless
your pH is 6.5 or so. Ingrid

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote:

>Hi, all;
>How does one get rid of those *(%&! mystery snails that come in with
>plants?!??! I thought I was rid of them, changed the filters, sorted
>through all the sea weed, did three peroxide dips on the fish to get rid of
>any flukes, and now, over three weeks later, a teensy snail on the side
>wall! I assume it was an egg. I also assume it's not alone, even tho it's
>the only one we could find. Is there anything I can put in the tank to kill
>these evil things? Or am I doomed, now that they are in there?
>
>I'm also assuming that, if I threw these plants away (they've been in the
>tank since Christmas), any more I get would be apt to be infested, too....
>
>Help!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

I wouldn't call them mystery snails, since that term is usually associated
with apple snails, and I doubt an apple snail (usually about the size of a
cherry or bigger) came in on your plants without you knowing.

Regarding your stowaway snail: Why don't you just squish it? As you become
aware of more of them, you can squish them, too.

Sounds like you are worried about them being carriers of some kind of
disease--if that is the case it is too late for removing those plants to do
you any good. (Can an animal carry parasites while still in the egg?) I'd
wait and see if any more snails appear. That might have been the only one.
You don't want to tear everything apart "just in case"--that won't do your
fish any good.

I believe there is some kind of chemical dip you can use on new plants so
that no snails/eggs survive on them, but I can't remember the name of it.
Might want to use something like that in the future.

-Chris


(P.S. Snails aren't evil, they're just inconvenient. )_



in article , Dark Phoenix at
wrote on 5/11/04 12:02 AM:

> Hi, all;
> How does one get rid of those *(%&! mystery snails that come in with
> plants?!??! I thought I was rid of them, changed the filters, sorted
> through all the sea weed, did three peroxide dips on the fish to get rid of
> any flukes, and now, over three weeks later, a teensy snail on the side
> wall! I assume it was an egg. I also assume it's not alone, even tho it's
> the only one we could find. Is there anything I can put in the tank to kill
> these evil things? Or am I doomed, now that they are in there?
>
> I'm also assuming that, if I threw these plants away (they've been in the
> tank since Christmas), any more I get would be apt to be infested, too....
>
> Help!

--
Chris

[Lily]

I was really stressing about my snail situation, but now I have reached a
happy compromise. When they are big enough for me to see, I go around in
the morning and squish all the ones on the glass (sorry if you're
squeamish!). This leaves me with a dozen or so which are helping get rid of
a little bit of algae on the leaves of my plants, and cleaning gunk off the
gravel in between vacuums. The added bonus is that my guppies have
developed an obsession with them and get extremly excited when I do this
circuit of the tank in the morning - they love them! I wash all my weed
really well under running tap water - I figure the chlorine will help get
rid of them - before I put them in a tank. So only one of my tanks has the
little critters, I have managed to avoid them in the others.

Cheers
Lill


"Chris Oinonen Ehren" > wrote in message
...
> I wouldn't call them mystery snails, since that term is usually associated
> with apple snails, and I doubt an apple snail (usually about the size of a
> cherry or bigger) came in on your plants without you knowing.
>
> Regarding your stowaway snail: Why don't you just squish it? As you
become
> aware of more of them, you can squish them, too.
>
> Sounds like you are worried about them being carriers of some kind of
> disease--if that is the case it is too late for removing those plants to
do
> you any good. (Can an animal carry parasites while still in the egg?) I'd
> wait and see if any more snails appear. That might have been the only
one.
> You don't want to tear everything apart "just in case"--that won't do your
> fish any good.
>
> I believe there is some kind of chemical dip you can use on new plants so
> that no snails/eggs survive on them, but I can't remember the name of it.
> Might want to use something like that in the future.
>
> -Chris
>
>
> (P.S. Snails aren't evil, they're just inconvenient. )_
>
>
>
> in article , Dark Phoenix at
> wrote on 5/11/04 12:02 AM:
>
> > Hi, all;
> > How does one get rid of those *(%&! mystery snails that come in with
> > plants?!??! I thought I was rid of them, changed the filters, sorted
> > through all the sea weed, did three peroxide dips on the fish to get rid
of
> > any flukes, and now, over three weeks later, a teensy snail on the side
> > wall! I assume it was an egg. I also assume it's not alone, even tho
it's
> > the only one we could find. Is there anything I can put in the tank to
kill
> > these evil things? Or am I doomed, now that they are in there?
> >
> > I'm also assuming that, if I threw these plants away (they've been in
the
> > tank since Christmas), any more I get would be apt to be infested,
too....
> >
> > Help!
>
> --
> Chris
>
>

[Dark Phoenix]

> wrote in message
...
> I tried everything. had a special tank just for "desnailing" plants.
only thing
> worked was a hefty concentration of copper sulfate (like coppersafe).
> move your fish out of the tank to a bucket of well aerated water with a
net top to
> prevent jumping. put a double dose of coppersafe in the tank overnight.
remove most
> of the water to get rid of it. a little left behind isnt going to hurt
the GF unless
> your pH is 6.5 or so. Ingrid

My pH is waaaay over that... but... doesn't the copper sulfate kill the
plants, too? It does a number on terrestrial plants.


--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[Dark Phoenix]

"Chris Oinonen Ehren" > wrote in message
...
> I wouldn't call them mystery snails, since that term is usually associated
> with apple snails, and I doubt an apple snail (usually about the size of a
> cherry or bigger) came in on your plants without you knowing.
>
> Regarding your stowaway snail: Why don't you just squish it? As you
become
> aware of more of them, you can squish them, too.
>
> Sounds like you are worried about them being carriers of some kind of
> disease--if that is the case it is too late for removing those plants to
do
> you any good. (Can an animal carry parasites while still in the egg?) I'd
> wait and see if any more snails appear. That might have been the only
one.
> You don't want to tear everything apart "just in case"--that won't do your
> fish any good.
>
> I believe there is some kind of chemical dip you can use on new plants so
> that no snails/eggs survive on them, but I can't remember the name of it.
> Might want to use something like that in the future.
>

Hmm... we know what apple snails are; why are they called mystery snails?
And no, these aren't apples or ramshorns.

I do squish them- well, I take the out and toss them to the chickens. Little
escargot treat. I'm just tired of thinking I've got the tank de-eviled, and
then finding... more of them. Are these things born pregnant??? Have babies
while they're still invisible to the naked eye??? Until I found out they
could carry flukes, and thus be a probable cause of the bacterial infection
I'm still fighting after two months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae.
They made neat patterns in it.


--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[Donald K]

Dark Phoenix wrote:

>Until I found out they could carry flukes, and thus be a
> probable cause of the bacterial infection I'm still fighting after two
> months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae. They made neat
> patterns in it.

Remove goldfish. 100% water change. Nice and clean. Add loaches (clown
or weather). Wait a week or so. Put those cute little loaches back in
their own tank, replace goldfish.

See those cute little barbels? Specially designed to get snails out of
their shells... Heh, heh, heh.

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Donald K]

Dark Phoenix wrote:

> My pH is waaaay over that... but... doesn't the copper sulfate kill
> the plants, too? It does a number on terrestrial plants.

Think chemotherapy.
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[[email protected]]

uh... not sure cause I have used copper sulfate like stuff to kill fungus on my
orchids. Ingrid

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote:
but... doesn't the copper sulfate kill the
>plants, too? It does a number on terrestrial plants.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Dark Phoenix]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Dark Phoenix wrote:
>
> > My pH is waaaay over that... but... doesn't the copper sulfate kill
> > the plants, too? It does a number on terrestrial plants.
>
> Think chemotherapy.
> --
> "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
> enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

I get it. Take it to death's door, but not through it.

BTW, I love your quote.

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[Dark Phoenix]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Dark Phoenix wrote:
>
> >Until I found out they could carry flukes, and thus be a
> > probable cause of the bacterial infection I'm still fighting after two
> > months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae. They made neat
> > patterns in it.
>
> Remove goldfish. 100% water change. Nice and clean. Add loaches (clown
> or weather). Wait a week or so. Put those cute little loaches back in
> their own tank, replace goldfish.
>
> See those cute little barbels? Specially designed to get snails out of
> their shells... Heh, heh, heh.
>
> -D

Hmm. I wonder if the LFS would let me borrow a couple? I've spend enough
money there! ;-)

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[Happy'Cam'per]

> wrote in message
...
> uh... not sure cause I have used copper sulfate like stuff to kill fungus
on my
> orchids. Ingrid
>

You need more drainage or more air movement, this helps greatly. :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[T]

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Donald K" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dark Phoenix wrote:
> >
> > >Until I found out they could carry flukes, and thus be a
> > > probable cause of the bacterial infection I'm still fighting after two
> > > months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae. They made neat
> > > patterns in it.
> >
> > Remove goldfish. 100% water change. Nice and clean. Add loaches (clown
> > or weather). Wait a week or so. Put those cute little loaches back in
> > their own tank, replace goldfish.
> >
> > See those cute little barbels? Specially designed to get snails out of
> > their shells... Heh, heh, heh.
> >
> > -D
>
> Hmm. I wonder if the LFS would let me borrow a couple? I've spend enough
> money there! ;-)
>
> --
> Laurie, Dark Phoenix
>
> Error. Install universe and reboot.
>
>

Odd though, I know a local LFS that uses goldies to exterminate the snails..
I myself use Yoyo's, but I have been wondering if they have not been eatting
my african fry... I have an AQ 300 filter block full of the bloody things..
Yet the itself is clear.. The occupents would be a small koi, goldies and
guppies ( hanging in the weeds ).. No snails inside the tank, just the
fliter...

Tim..

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

in article , Dark Phoenix at
wrote on 5/12/04 12:23 AM:

>
> "Chris Oinonen Ehren" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I wouldn't call them mystery snails, since that term is usually associated
>> with apple snails, and I doubt an apple snail (usually about the size of a
>> cherry or bigger) came in on your plants without you knowing.
>>
>> Regarding your stowaway snail: Why don't you just squish it? As you
> become
>> aware of more of them, you can squish them, too.
>>
>> Sounds like you are worried about them being carriers of some kind of
>> disease--if that is the case it is too late for removing those plants to
> do
>> you any good. (Can an animal carry parasites while still in the egg?) I'd
>> wait and see if any more snails appear. That might have been the only
> one.
>> You don't want to tear everything apart "just in case"--that won't do your
>> fish any good.
>>
>> I believe there is some kind of chemical dip you can use on new plants so
>> that no snails/eggs survive on them, but I can't remember the name of it.
>> Might want to use something like that in the future.
>>
>
> Hmm... we know what apple snails are; why are they called mystery snails?
> And no, these aren't apples or ramshorns.

I've seen various Apple Snails called that for twenty years or more. I
suspect its because it is really tricky to tell within the genus what
species you have, so rather than try to say "I'm selling Pomacea Bridgesii"
and then find out they're really selling Pomacea Canalculata they would say
"I'm selling mystery snails". If you google "mystery snails" you'll see
they still use that term for apples of all kinds. Better to say "Pond
Snails" or stowaways or something.

>
> I do squish them- well, I take the out and toss them to the chickens. Little
> escargot treat. I'm just tired of thinking I've got the tank de-eviled, and
> then finding... more of them. Are these things born pregnant??? Have babies
> while they're still invisible to the naked eye??? Until I found out they
> could carry flukes, and thus be a probable cause of the bacterial infection
> I'm still fighting after two months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae.
> They made neat patterns in it.
>
Hmm. What kind of flukes? I suspect that snails are infected after
hatching, rather than being laid infected. All I've been able to find out
with Google indicates that snails have to have fluke eggs available to pick
up with their food in order to be infected. Sounds like they aren't hatched
already infected.

No, snails can't reproduce when they're still invisible. (Somebody asked
that). But their eggs are really hard to spot, and newly hatched snails
are hard to spot. But if the snails are so small they can't be easily seen,
they can't have been hatched for more than a few days. So if you got your
plants in the pet store they hatched out at the pet store, and can't pick up
flukes unless they were hatched in an infected tank. If you got them at the
lake (or pond, or creek) you might still have a problem.

What is the genus species name on the flukes you are worried about? It
would be easier to find helpful articles if we knew that.
--
Chris

[[email protected]]

look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by snails. more
diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific investigation.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ingird,

I can not believe the misinformation that you give out
all the time. You want to blame snails for just about
everything.

The temperate version of Black spot disease has a
secondary host as a Mollusk not a snail, the tropical
form of black spot disease is associated with a
specific snail that occurs in Malaysia but has made its
way to isolated areas of Florida due to the tropical
fish trade. The other forms of Black spot disease are
associated with Marine (sal****er) Cold water fish,
Marine (sal****er) tropical fish and probably do not
need to be discussed here on the Goldfish list.

Golly geee.

One of these days you might think about doing some
reading before you start relating this misinformation.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------------


wrote:
> look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by snails. more
> diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific investigation.
> Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Laurie,

Who told you they could carry flukes. There is only
one fluke species where a snail is a secondary host and
this occurs regional in the mountainous regions of the
Northwest, and requires a specific species of snail for
it to occur, so unless you live in the mountains of
Washington or Oregon state, I doubt if you got flukes
from a snail. Most of the flukes that bother Goldfish
have nothing to do with snails as intermediate hosts.

Snails can get bacterial infections, but chances are if
they have a bacterial infection they got it from your
fish, which can carry diseases and will only show up
when the fish becomes stressed, which is why it is
important to quarantine fish a month before adding them
to your local population of fish and during this month
you and do a pre-treatment of drugs on the fish to get
rid of the buggers.

If you are actually worried about this you need to take
the fluke or the suspect infect fish to the lab to get
it analyzed professionally than trying to get guesses
from the internet. A good microscope can also see the
little buggers also, but let me say, that very few
diseases in aquariums or ponds are transmitted via
snails and it is only via very rare cases that it is seen.

You need to get the "Fancy Goldfish" Book by Rick Hess
and Dr. Johnson. It is very informative and actually
has picture to help identify problems.

HTH

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------

Dark Phoenix wrote:

> "Chris Oinonen Ehren" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I wouldn't call them mystery snails, since that term is usually associated
>>with apple snails, and I doubt an apple snail (usually about the size of a
>>cherry or bigger) came in on your plants without you knowing.
>>
>>Regarding your stowaway snail: Why don't you just squish it? As you
>
> become
>
>>aware of more of them, you can squish them, too.
>>
>>Sounds like you are worried about them being carriers of some kind of
>>disease--if that is the case it is too late for removing those plants to
>
> do
>
>>you any good. (Can an animal carry parasites while still in the egg?) I'd
>>wait and see if any more snails appear. That might have been the only
>
> one.
>
>>You don't want to tear everything apart "just in case"--that won't do your
>>fish any good.
>>
>>I believe there is some kind of chemical dip you can use on new plants so
>>that no snails/eggs survive on them, but I can't remember the name of it.
>>Might want to use something like that in the future.
>>
>
>
> Hmm... we know what apple snails are; why are they called mystery snails?
> And no, these aren't apples or ramshorns.
>
> I do squish them- well, I take the out and toss them to the chickens. Little
> escargot treat. I'm just tired of thinking I've got the tank de-eviled, and
> then finding... more of them. Are these things born pregnant??? Have babies
> while they're still invisible to the naked eye??? Until I found out they
> could carry flukes, and thus be a probable cause of the bacterial infection
> I'm still fighting after two months, I was leaving them to cruise the algae.
> They made neat patterns in it.
>
>

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

in article , at
wrote on 5/16/04 11:15 PM:

> look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by snails.
> more
> diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific investigation.
> Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.
Here's what I found at
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/uvulifer.html

"Several members of this genus cause "black spot" in fish --- the best known
species is Uvulifer ambloplitis.* The life cycles of most members of this
genus are similar.* The definitive host is most often a bird, and the
parasite's eggs are passed in the bird's feces.* The first intermediate host
is a snail, and the second intermediate host is a fish.* The fish is
infected when cercariae penetrate the skin.* The cercariae lose their tails
and transform into a stage called the "neascus larva" or "neascus
metacercaria."* The definitive host is infected when it eats an infected
second intermediate host.

These encysted metacercariae often turn black and are visible on the fish's
surface -- hence, "black spot" in fish.* Heavily infected fish are often
discarded by fishermen, although they pose no threat of infection to
humans."

So, the life cycle goes snails eat eggs from bird poop, snails pass the
parasite on to fish, and fish are eaten by birds completing the cycle.

Snails that are wild-caught, or raised in situations where they may get
access to bird poop (outdoor culture ponds, etc.) can pick up the parasites
and pass them on to fish, while snails that have no access to bird poop,
that have lived for generations inside various aquariums, can't pass on the
parasites.

Because I keep snails, I have done google-research (research lite) on a
number of different parasites that snails can carry and pass on to fish and
humans. What I have found over and over is that only snails that live
outdoors pick up these parasites. Snails cannot give these parasites to
each other, and the parasites I have researched do not get passed on in the
snails' eggs.

An uninfected snail can not pass on these parasites. So while it would be a
good idea to keep snails out of your outdoor ponds so as to interrupt the
potential parasite life cycle, in an aquarium the life cycle is already
interrupted, due to the lack of birds.

You always need to know your sources of plants and animals. It would make
sense to treat any new plant you got in a 10 mg/liter potassium permanganate
solution to kill any snails or snail eggs especially since you don't want
them. And if you got any snails that you wanted it would make sense to know
their source & history, and quarantine them for awhile like any other new
addition knowing that they could potentially be a source of problems. In
snails with a fast life cycle it makes sense to culture them separately and
only introduce the young to your aquarium.

That said, after more than 20 years of keeping many various species of
snails, aquarium cultured and wild caught, I have never seen any of these
parasites in my fish.
--
Chris

[Kay]

Tom L. La Bron wrote:
> Ingird,
>
> I can not believe the misinformation that you give out all the time.
> You want to blame snails for just about everything.
>
> The temperate version of Black spot disease has a secondary host as a
> Mollusk not a snail, the tropical form of black spot disease is
> associated with a specific snail that occurs in Malaysia but has made
> its way to isolated areas of Florida due to the tropical fish trade.
> The other forms of Black spot disease are associated with Marine
> (sal****er) Cold water fish, Marine (sal****er) tropical fish and
> probably do not need to be discussed here on the Goldfish list.
>
> Golly geee.
>
> One of these days you might think about doing some reading before you
> start relating this misinformation.
>
> Tom L.L.
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
> wrote:
>
>> look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by
>> snails. more
>> diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific
>> investigation.
>> Ingrid
>>
>>
Tom,
I agree with you. I have and had alot of apple snails for years. I am a
fan of www.applesnail.net I'm not to crazy of the pest snails ie
tadpoles, red ramshorn but having all of these I never had a fish catch
anything from them. Only problem I had once was my Goldfish got a red
ramshorn caught in his mouth, I picked him up and gently worked the
snail out of his mouth, that really scared me. But after awhile all the
snails disapeared. I assume the fish ate the small snails and eggs. I
picked the big ones out and I never keep my apple snails with my
goldfish cause he will try and get thier "feelers" Or knock them off the
glass.

kay

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kay,

Once Goldfish get a taste for snails (I smash them on
the glass or on the sides of the ponds) the Goldfish
start eating the newly hatched snails before the shells
harden (this is in the case of the common pond snail)
and then all you have are big pond snails left and the
population remains static as the newly hatch snails are
eaten eagerly by the Goldfish.

I would venture to speculate that most of the problems
people have almost never relate to snails. Ingrid, for
years, has continued to make this correlation between
snails and disease in people tanks, but like always,
she never supports it with any information other than
her saying that it can happen and I usually refute what
she says with information right out of the books that
say what she is saying it wrong.

In any event, snails are not the problem.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------------------

Kay wrote:
> Tom L. La Bron wrote:
>
>> Ingird,
>>
>> I can not believe the misinformation that you give out all the time.
>> You want to blame snails for just about everything.
>>
>> The temperate version of Black spot disease has a secondary host as a
>> Mollusk not a snail, the tropical form of black spot disease is
>> associated with a specific snail that occurs in Malaysia but has made
>> its way to isolated areas of Florida due to the tropical fish trade.
>> The other forms of Black spot disease are associated with Marine
>> (sal****er) Cold water fish, Marine (sal****er) tropical fish and
>> probably do not need to be discussed here on the Goldfish list.
>>
>> Golly geee.
>>
>> One of these days you might think about doing some reading before you
>> start relating this misinformation.
>>
>> Tom L.L.
>> ----------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by
>>> snails. more
>>> diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific
>>> investigation.
>>> Ingrid
>>>
>>>
> Tom,
> I agree with you. I have and had alot of apple snails for years. I am a
> fan of www.applesnail.net I'm not to crazy of the pest snails ie
> tadpoles, red ramshorn but having all of these I never had a fish catch
> anything from them. Only problem I had once was my Goldfish got a red
> ramshorn caught in his mouth, I picked him up and gently worked the
> snail out of his mouth, that really scared me. But after awhile all the
> snails disapeared. I assume the fish ate the small snails and eggs. I
> picked the big ones out and I never keep my apple snails with my
> goldfish cause he will try and get thier "feelers" Or knock them off the
> glass.
>
> kay
>

[Dark Phoenix]

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Laurie,
>
> Who told you they could carry flukes. There is only
> one fluke species where a snail is a secondary host and
> this occurs regional in the mountainous regions of the
> Northwest, and requires a specific species of snail for
> it to occur, so unless you live in the mountains of
> Washington or Oregon state, I doubt if you got flukes
> from a snail. Most of the flukes that bother Goldfish
> have nothing to do with snails as intermediate hosts.
>
> Snails can get bacterial infections, but chances are if
> they have a bacterial infection they got it from your
> fish, which can carry diseases and will only show up
> when the fish becomes stressed, which is why it is
> important to quarantine fish a month before adding them
> to your local population of fish and during this month
> you and do a pre-treatment of drugs on the fish to get
> rid of the buggers.
>
> If you are actually worried about this you need to take
> the fluke or the suspect infect fish to the lab to get
> it analyzed professionally than trying to get guesses
> from the internet. A good microscope can also see the
> little buggers also, but let me say, that very few
> diseases in aquariums or ponds are transmitted via
> snails and it is only via very rare cases that it is seen.
>
> You need to get the "Fancy Goldfish" Book by Rick Hess
> and Dr. Johnson. It is very informative and actually
> has picture to help identify problems.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.

It was Ken who now owns Dandy Orandas, who I got the Romet-B from. When I
emailed him about the Romet-B, he wanted to make sure it was a bacterial
problem before he sent it. So I told him the entire Saga of Cher's Pimple.
He pointed out that for an ulcer with bacterial infection to occur (and it
was occuring in three of the fish at one time, now it's back down to just
Cher), something had to make a hole in her skin for the bacteria to get in.
I told him everything in the tank, including the snails that rode in on the
plants. (which were purchased at the LFS; who knows where they got them, but
I *do* live in the Pac NW-but these plants were anacharis, hornwort and Java
moss, which I don't *think* live outside around here, at least not in
December when I bought them) Anyway, he suggested that flukes had ridden in
on the snails, so get rid of them, and to give the fish a peroxide dip,
every other day 3x total.

So that's what started this tempest. Cher still has ulcers, they're still
eating Romet-B, and I'm grabbing her out of the tank everyday and smearing
her with antibiotic cream. She acts just fine, but that infection just won't
go away....

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[[email protected]]

Snails are known to carry several diseases that infect humans.
Fish spend significantly more time in water than humans do.
It is logical to suspect that snails carry more diseases that infect fish than humans
but the scientific community doesnt have the time, interest or money to search for
them. They and all other crustaceans are a potential source of disease for GF.
So it really comes down to "why put snails in a GF tank?" Snails increase the
biological load, they dont add anything to the health of the GF. They dont really
keep the algae off the glass and they dont clean up anything else.
For those who just like snails as pets, why not give them their own nicely landscaped
tank?
Ingrid

Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>Here's what I found at
>http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/uvulifer.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

pimples on GF are from the inside out. so the antibiotic food is most important.
outside wounds, like an ulcer is most certainly a parasite like a fluke disrupting
the slime coat and letting the bacteria in. in any case, the peroxide dip wont hurt
the fish and will cover all the bases. we dont KNOW all the disease that can get
carried in by snails or just on a plant. we do know several parasites lay eggs that
stick to plants too ... like dacs and ich. Ingrid

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote:
>He pointed out that for an ulcer with bacterial infection to occur (and it
>was occuring in three of the fish at one time, now it's back down to just
>Cher), something had to make a hole in her skin for the bacteria to get in.
>I told him everything in the tank, including the snails that rode in on the
>plants. (which were purchased at the LFS; who knows where they got them, but
>I *do* live in the Pac NW-but these plants were anacharis, hornwort and Java
>moss, which I don't *think* live outside around here, at least not in
>December when I bought them) Anyway, he suggested that flukes had ridden in
>on the snails, so get rid of them, and to give the fish a peroxide dip,
>every other day 3x total.
>
>So that's what started this tempest. Cher still has ulcers, they're still
>eating Romet-B, and I'm grabbing her out of the tank everyday and smearing
>her with antibiotic cream. She acts just fine, but that infection just won't
>go away....



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Dark Phoenix]

> wrote in message
...
> pimples on GF are from the inside out. so the antibiotic food is most
important.
> outside wounds, like an ulcer is most certainly a parasite like a fluke
disrupting
> the slime coat and letting the bacteria in. in any case, the peroxide dip
wont hurt
> the fish and will cover all the bases. we dont KNOW all the disease that
can get
> carried in by snails or just on a plant. we do know several parasites lay
eggs that
> stick to plants too ... like dacs and ich. Ingrid

How long can they go on eating Romet-B? They've been on it for almost 3
weeks now, I think Any toxicity build up?
Thanks,

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix, who certainly has plenty of the stuff in the freezer

Error. Install universe and reboot.

[Kay]

Tom,
I have read lots of posts in the ponds newsgroups about snails and the
spring problem with algae and how they smash the snails for the koi and
goldfish. And in the Freshwater newsgroups especially the plants how
they encourage the snails always adding the bonus of free food. I don't
remember where any poster had a sick fish and the reason being is
snails.Maybe I will post a question there?

Kay

> Kay,
>
> Once Goldfish get a taste for snails (I smash them on the glass or on
> the sides of the ponds) the Goldfish start eating the newly hatched
> snails before the shells harden (this is in the case of the common pond
> snail) and then all you have are big pond snails left and the population
> remains static as the newly hatch snails are eaten eagerly by the Goldfish.
>
> I would venture to speculate that most of the problems people have
> almost never relate to snails. Ingrid, for years, has continued to make
> this correlation between snails and disease in people tanks, but like
> always, she never supports it with any information other than her saying
> that it can happen and I usually refute what she says with information
> right out of the books that say what she is saying it wrong.
>
> In any event, snails are not the problem.
>
> Tom L.L.
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Kay wrote:
>
>> Tom L. La Bron wrote:
>>
>>> Ingird,
>>>
>>> I can not believe the misinformation that you give out all the time.
>>> You want to blame snails for just about everything.
>>>
>>> The temperate version of Black spot disease has a secondary host as a
>>> Mollusk not a snail, the tropical form of black spot disease is
>>> associated with a specific snail that occurs in Malaysia but has made
>>> its way to isolated areas of Florida due to the tropical fish trade.
>>> The other forms of Black spot disease are associated with Marine
>>> (sal****er) Cold water fish, Marine (sal****er) tropical fish and
>>> probably do not need to be discussed here on the Goldfish list.
>>>
>>> Golly geee.
>>>
>>> One of these days you might think about doing some reading before you
>>> start relating this misinformation.
>>>
>>> Tom L.L.
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> look up black spot disease of fish, among other diseases carried by
>>>> snails. more
>>>> diseases are known in humans, a more intense area of scientific
>>>> investigation.
>>>> Ingrid
>>>>
>>>>
>> Tom,
>> I agree with you. I have and had alot of apple snails for years. I am
>> a fan of www.applesnail.net I'm not to crazy of the pest snails ie
>> tadpoles, red ramshorn but having all of these I never had a fish
>> catch anything from them. Only problem I had once was my Goldfish got
>> a red ramshorn caught in his mouth, I picked him up and gently worked
>> the snail out of his mouth, that really scared me. But after awhile
>> all the snails disapeared. I assume the fish ate the small snails and
>> eggs. I picked the big ones out and I never keep my apple snails with
>> my goldfish cause he will try and get thier "feelers" Or knock them
>> off the glass.
>>
>> kay
>>

tom,

[[email protected]]

no toxicity. go ahead and keep feeding it until the pimples resolve. Ingrid

"Dark Phoenix" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> pimples on GF are from the inside out. so the antibiotic food is most
>important.
>> outside wounds, like an ulcer is most certainly a parasite like a fluke
>disrupting
>> the slime coat and letting the bacteria in. in any case, the peroxide dip
>wont hurt
>> the fish and will cover all the bases. we dont KNOW all the disease that
>can get
>> carried in by snails or just on a plant. we do know several parasites lay
>eggs that
>> stick to plants too ... like dacs and ich. Ingrid
>
>How long can they go on eating Romet-B? They've been on it for almost 3
>weeks now, I think Any toxicity build up?
>Thanks,



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Tom and Everyone who is interested.

I did post the question of snails in 2 pond NGS and a Freshwter Plant
NG, The plant people must think I'l a troll cause of the question of
snails making fish sick that there were no answers.I'm only posting
replies of the last 24 hours.

My thought now after reading all the replies is that I would only be
mildly concerned if the snail was captured from the wild, and maybe then
there would be a chance of a problem. If anyone has concerns they can
really read up at www.applesnail.net and a very *friendly* forum with
lots of people with *lots* of experence with snails.

Here are some of the posts on the debate of snails making fish sick.
these following posters were nice enough to post about there experence
with snails and fish.

Kay


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's see, it might help to know what kind of
snails folks have.

ramshorn (or orb snail), little pond snail (lots and lots of these), pointed
winkle and japanese trapdoor.

I've made an effort, when buying plants, to collect different types from the
growing pond.

No fish disease noticed.

I feel nursery snails are safe. Snails from the wild I don't think I'd bring
into my ponds. I've never added plants from the wild into my pond except by
seed (cord grass, cattails and rush) or birdy business (bladderwort).


kathy
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have had many snails arrive in my pond. Some from my bro in law. Some from
Jim Hurley. Some from plants I bought. Some from who knows where. They are
also in a variety of sizes from "can't see 'em" to "golf ball sized". To
date, I have not had any plants destroyed by snails, and I have lost only
one fish, which entered the pond and died the next day. He was old, and I am
guessing didn't travel well.

I agree with K30. You can pond for your fish, and in that case be anal about
critters. Or you can go au-natural and build it...they will come.

BV.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee,


I flush them out of my bead filters all the time. None in the pond, koi
love the snacks, but skimmer, vortex, bead filter all get plenty.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had small snails raised in a tub with a catfish and a terror, and in a tub
with minnows and GF. I couldn't catch enough snails to feed the Clown Loach
in an aquarium. I did not have any unexplainable fish death.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last year i had many snails. No deaths or illnesses occured, except
the snails either got eaten or died. Not a trace this year. Not one.

No fish trouble, anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think lots of animals can carry just about anything that a snail can.
And being a breeder for money it would make

sense to keep to a single specie enviorment, but I refuse to believe a
snail on the average can kill a fish by

hitching a ride on a plant from a LFS.

Kay

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most people have no idea why their fish die. And frankly, it isnt my
opinion that
snails are not a good "companion" animal for pond fish. It is the
opinion of the
experts that breed fish, the experts that write the text books. I did
start out my
graduate studies in parasitology, so I have enough information to be
very impressed
with how nasty parasites are that spread thru intermediate hosts.
consider that the dermal variety of schistosomiasis AKA swimmers itch is
spread by
snails... and the Pond Lady was getting horrendous itching and sores on
arms and legs
from her ponds.
as for people buying snails to put in their pond... whatever winds your
motor
applies.
Ingrid


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem is, you may or may not be able to lay the cause of a recent
outbreak at the (ahem!) feet of the snails. They're just SUSPECT - always.
Once upon a time I had apple snails: was a real treat to watch them. Then my
fish got sick. One of the possible culprits were the snails. Didn't know for
sure, didn't want to take the risk: gave them to a kid who only wanted the
snails in a tank with no fish. Also, a lot of medications that you may wish
to treat your fish with will play havoc with snails. Which in turn plays
havoc with your water quality. And then there's this to consider: there
are no snails in the pond where the fish are (they're munchies if found!);
however, I just had to tear my Ultima II down over the weekend because it
had slowed to a trickle. The fins were clogged solid with the little black
common pond snails. They're a nuisance. They serve no good (other than
munchies). If they can be prevented, they should be. After they're in the
pond, it's nearly impossible to be rid of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have, but not in a pond. I also raise fresh and salt water aquarium
fish. I
have had snails wipe out an entire tank. I don't remember the specific
species
that did it, but some snails carry parasites that are deadly to fish, while
others carry deadly bacteria. In addition, some really nasty ones will
grow in
their larval stage attached to a fish's gill tissue, sucking fluids out
of the
fish, and introducing parasites and diseases along the way. Most,
however, are
harmless to fish. Ususally the problem snails get into a tank or a pond
via
introduced plant populations. Which is why, in my view, a good habit to
get
into is to wash any plants before you introduce them into an aquarium or
pond.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Except for the Japanese trapdoors, which I
bought on purpose, all of my snails have come
in on plants purchased locally. If they're
diseased I haven't noticed but not sure what
to look for.


>> kathy
>> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a

pond</A>

Gail


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

I find it annoying that I went through the trouble of researching and
explaining why snails don't pose a threat as a source of parasites in an
aquarium environment and you just post saying, in effect "do too" without
addressing any of the information I included. It appears you are more
interested in your opinion than in any facts that could be offered.

-Chris


in article , at
wrote on 5/18/04 8:52 AM:

> Snails are known to carry several diseases that infect humans.
> Fish spend significantly more time in water than humans do.
> It is logical to suspect that snails carry more diseases that infect fish than
> humans
> but the scientific community doesnt have the time, interest or money to
> search for
> them. They and all other crustaceans are a potential source of disease for
> GF.
> So it really comes down to "why put snails in a GF tank?" Snails increase the
> biological load, they dont add anything to the health of the GF. They dont
> really
> keep the algae off the glass and they dont clean up anything else.
> For those who just like snails as pets, why not give them their own nicely
> landscaped
> tank?
> Ingrid
>
> Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>> Here's what I found at
>> http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/uvulifer.html
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

--
Chris

[Tom L. La Bron]

Chris,

Welcome to the world of Ingrid Buxton. It is either
her way or the highway, research and documented
information to the wind, especially if it refutes what
she is saying, it isn't true unless "she" says it. You
can give references and documentation over and over
again and she just ignores it.

Refute her offend enough (or sometimes only once, if
you really make her mad) and she will put you in her
kill file; that way you don't exist, so anything you
say, since she didn't see it, it was never documented
so it doesn't exist.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------


Chris Oinonen Ehren wrote:
> I find it annoying that I went through the trouble of researching and
> explaining why snails don't pose a threat as a source of parasites in an
> aquarium environment and you just post saying, in effect "do too" without
> addressing any of the information I included. It appears you are more
> interested in your opinion than in any facts that could be offered.
>
> -Chris
>
>
> in article , at
> wrote on 5/18/04 8:52 AM:
>
>
>>Snails are known to carry several diseases that infect humans.
>>Fish spend significantly more time in water than humans do.
>>It is logical to suspect that snails carry more diseases that infect fish than
>>humans
>>but the scientific community doesnt have the time, interest or money to
>>search for
>>them. They and all other crustaceans are a potential source of disease for
>>GF.
>>So it really comes down to "why put snails in a GF tank?" Snails increase the
>>biological load, they dont add anything to the health of the GF. They dont
>>really
>>keep the algae off the glass and they dont clean up anything else.
>>For those who just like snails as pets, why not give them their own nicely
>>landscaped
>>tank?
>>Ingrid
>>
>>Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>>
>>>Here's what I found at
>>>http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/uvulifer.html
>>
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>www.drsolo.com
>>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>

[[email protected]]

You searched on the internet. Unhappily, it is a poor source of really specific
science information. I suggest you read these Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease
Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 and Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish Medicine,
W.B.Saunders Co., 1993. Also, pick up any good parasitology, like Tropical Medicine
and Parasitology by Wallace Peters, Geoffrey Pasvol, Geoff Pasvol List Price:
$60.00 on Amazon.com. Sign up for a course in parasitology or two.
Yes, you are right .. mine is a highly informed opinion based on years of course
work. And you are right, I dont have time to assemble a complete thesis on snails
that might satisfy you. I check in here to help people with their sick Goldfish, not
get help or "to chat". I am teaching this summer.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/su1-2004/syll_ss1-04.html

Ingrid

Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>I find it annoying that I went through the trouble of researching and
>explaining why snails don't pose a threat as a source of parasites in an
>aquarium environment and you just post saying, in effect "do too" without
>addressing any of the information I included. It appears you are more
>interested in your opinion than in any facts that could be offered.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

wrote:
> You searched on the internet. Unhappily, it is a poor source of really specific
> science information. I suggest you read these Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease
> Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 and Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish Medicine,
> W.B.Saunders Co., 1993. Also, pick up any good parasitology, like Tropical Medicine
> and Parasitology by Wallace Peters, Geoffrey Pasvol, Geoff Pasvol List Price:
> $60.00 on Amazon.com. Sign up for a course in parasitology or two.
> Yes, you are right .. mine is a highly informed opinion based on years of course
> work. And you are right, I dont have time to assemble a complete thesis on snails
> that might satisfy you. I check in here to help people with their sick Goldfish, not
> get help or "to chat". I am teaching this summer.
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/su1-2004/syll_ss1-04.html
>
> Ingrid
>
> Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:

Here are two more post to give a more objective post


In 40 years of fish keeping I have never had a fish die that could in
any way
be attributed to snails. Snails can be an intermediary host in a parasitic
disease that involves fish that eat snails but the snails have to be in
contact
with birds and the parasite doesn't harm the fish and has to eaten by
the bird
to carry on the disease other than that I know of no other disease
carried by
snails for fish.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/symptom/byname.htm#black%20spot


Well, this is a case of knowing where people are coming from. In the case
of black spot disease, it would be of concern to pond goldfish keepers,
because, being that ponds are outdoors, all the vectors required for the
disease (snails, birds, fish) are present. This is not a concern to the
indoor tank keeper, unless for some reason you have birds free-flying in
your home. It is possible that some goldfish keepers have experienced this
in their ponds, polarizing them against snails, even in situations were
there are no birds present. Note particularly that the page referenced
does not even mention the role birds play in the lifecycle.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kay

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

in article , at
wrote on 5/20/04 10:13 AM:

> You searched on the internet. Unhappily, it is a poor source of really
> specific
> science information. I suggest you read these Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease
> Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 and Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish Medicine,
> W.B.Saunders Co., 1993. Also, pick up any good parasitology, like Tropical
> Medicine
> and Parasitology by Wallace Peters, Geoffrey Pasvol, Geoff Pasvol List Price:
> $60.00 on Amazon.com. Sign up for a course in parasitology or two.
> Yes, you are right .. mine is a highly informed opinion based on years of
> course
> work. And you are right, I dont have time to assemble a complete thesis on
> snails
> that might satisfy you. I check in here to help people with their sick
> Goldfish, not
> get help or "to chat". I am teaching this summer.
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/su1-2004/syll_ss1-04.html
>
> Ingrid
>
> Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>> I find it annoying that I went through the trouble of researching and
>> explaining why snails don't pose a threat as a source of parasites in an
>> aquarium environment and you just post saying, in effect "do too" without
>> addressing any of the information I included. It appears you are more
>> interested in your opinion than in any facts that could be offered.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

Pity that none of that is relevant to the discussion at hand. Imagine a
candidate who answered questions by saying "I'm sorry, I'm far too busy and
far too important to actually answer that". I know too many PhDs to be
impressed by your reading list or your class schedule.

If you don't have the time and inclination to be clear, please accept that I
will remain unconvinced.
--
Chris

[Tom L. La Bron]

Hey Chris and Kay,

I have all the books Ingrid mentioned and it is
actually those books that I use (Including a very good
set by Wong) to refute the things that she says. It is
quite obvious to me that she doesn't read any of the
books that she herself mentions and supposedly uses as
references. Oh excuse me, if she uses them as
references, that would implies that she has read them,
but obviously their presence and her touting them is
merely there to impress people.

The thing that is scary to me is that this individual
is a teacher of young people. I wonder what she would
say to one of them if they used the same excuse that
she just gave to you about an assignment.

Like I said, welcome to the world of Ingrid. The other
thing that is interesting is that she has only been
keeping Goldfish for about 8 years.

The other thing is that experience counts for nothing
unless you are certain people.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------

Chris Oinonen Ehren wrote:
> in article , at
> wrote on 5/20/04 10:13 AM:
>
>
>>You searched on the internet. Unhappily, it is a poor source of really
>>specific
>>science information. I suggest you read these Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease
>>Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 and Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish Medicine,
>>W.B.Saunders Co., 1993. Also, pick up any good parasitology, like Tropical
>>Medicine
>>and Parasitology by Wallace Peters, Geoffrey Pasvol, Geoff Pasvol List Price:
>>$60.00 on Amazon.com. Sign up for a course in parasitology or two.
>>Yes, you are right .. mine is a highly informed opinion based on years of
>>course
>>work. And you are right, I dont have time to assemble a complete thesis on
>>snails
>>that might satisfy you. I check in here to help people with their sick
>>Goldfish, not
>>get help or "to chat". I am teaching this summer.
>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/su1-2004/syll_ss1-04.html
>>
>>Ingrid
>>
>>Chris Oinonen Ehren > wrote:
>>
>>>I find it annoying that I went through the trouble of researching and
>>>explaining why snails don't pose a threat as a source of parasites in an
>>>aquarium environment and you just post saying, in effect "do too" without
>>>addressing any of the information I included. It appears you are more
>>>interested in your opinion than in any facts that could be offered.
>>
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>www.drsolo.com
>>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>
> Pity that none of that is relevant to the discussion at hand. Imagine a
> candidate who answered questions by saying "I'm sorry, I'm far too busy and
> far too important to actually answer that". I know too many PhDs to be
> impressed by your reading list or your class schedule.
>
> If you don't have the time and inclination to be clear, please accept that I
> will remain unconvinced.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Please keep to the thread topic and not attacking or mocking people!

[[email protected]]

how many fish have you had during that time? What kind of tests did you run for
parasites?
my reference below is specific for black spot, it is not for snails. Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>In 40 years of fish keeping I have never had a fish die that could in
>any way >be attributed to snails.

> >http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/symptom/byname.htm#black%20spot
>Well, this is a case of knowing where people are coming from. In the case
>of black spot disease, it would be of concern to pond goldfish keepers,
>because, being that ponds are outdoors, all the vectors required for the
>disease (snails, birds, fish) are present. This is not a concern to the
>indoor tank keeper, unless for some reason you have birds free-flying in
>your home. It is possible that some goldfish keepers have experienced this
>in their ponds, polarizing them against snails, even in situations were
>there are no birds present. Note particularly that the page referenced
>does not even mention the role birds play in the lifecycle.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kay



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.