Help request for sick goldfish

[Brad Isley]

I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish.

Tank info:

54 gallon allglass bowfront with overflow and wet/dry.
About 250 gph through the filter.
Large rounded rocks for gravel (3/4" to 1.5").
Not quite enough gravel to cover the glass.
The idea is to not let the goldfish swallow smaller
gravel yet allow them to move the rocks around to
get the food off the tank bottom (which they do).
Some fake plants are in the back in front of the overflow.

Water:

I use RO/DI with seachem equilibrium, alkaline and acid
buffer to get the GH up to about 9-10. pH stays around 6.8.
It's difficult to keep it stable over 7, so I stopped trying.
During the initial startup of the tank about 8 months ago,
there was a great deal of water changing to keep the ammonia
and nitrites down, but that's old history. Currently, I do
a 25% water change weekly. Nitrates are kept below 15ppm.
I clean the glass every two weeks (it gets dirty quickly).
I add 1 Tbsp instant ocean salt per 5 gallons as a medication.
The tank is currently undergoing Melafix treatment (below).

Temperature stays around 75F. I realize this is high for
goldfish, but I'm not sure how to fix it unless I remove the
wet-dry pump from the sump and/or add a chiller.

Tank has 3 occupants:
1) Red Ryukin fantail (about 7" nose to tail)
2) White/gold/grey Oranda (about 7" nose to tail)
3) Redcap Oranda (about 5" nose to tail)

The white Oranda has health problems. He's a pretty cool
guy who likes to be held and hand-fed (underwater, of course!)
His cap is translucent white with an orange colored injury
on the left side. The cap has swollen to cover his left eye.
He also has tapeworms. Books I have consulted claim "the
tapeworms aren't a serious problem, are almost impossible to
cure, so don't worry." I'm not so sure...

The obvious health issues started about 6 weeks ago. He
started resting on the bottom, listless. We began Melafix
treatment and saw immediate improvement. The Melafix was
discontinued after a week with a resulting return to poor
health. It was at this time we noticed the tank's ex-resident
black moor (3" youngster) sucking the slime off of him.
We would sometimes see the oranda go nose-over upside down and
rest on the bottom inverted. While this greatly disturbs other
family members, it doesn't seem to bother the fish much. The
muscle tissue next to one of his pectoral fins seems red, like
it's inflamed or irritated. His breathing always seems labored
compared to the other tank occupants.

The tank is back on Melafix. His health has improved, but
the swollen cap, inflamed pectoral fin, breathing, and nose-
overs aren't fixed yet.

I'd like to return this fish to good health. He's like a wet
puppy to us. Suggestions?


We have several other tanks with no issues, but we did have
a guppy tank which was wiped out by intestinal parasites. I
suspect the guppy parasites are the source of the goldfish
tapeworms.


On another note, I'd like to improve the apperance of the tank.
The rocks are growing a sickly-looking covering of brown algae.
We're not thrilled with the appearance of them either, even without
the algae. What would be a good substrate for goldfish? The books
we have read all suggest something too large for them to injest,
but this size substrate allows food to go down between the rocks
where the fish can't get to it, where it rots and pollutes the
water. I've considered sand as an alternative.

Thanks in advance.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH.
Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You
could try adding a salt level of 0.3% to the tank, this may help kill the
tapeworm (but I'm not 100% sure on that!)

[[email protected]]

try RO Right (?) altho 6.8 pH is fine. dont use buffers meant for salt water tanks.
you could get some organic dolomitic limestone to add a bit more calcium. the main
thing dragging the pH down is nitrites, rotting organics in the gravel or filter.
use regular water softening crystal salt and dont use the ocean salt.
75-78oF is ideal for GF.
uhhh.. orandas wens (caps) continue to grow and do grow over eyes. it may not be a
bruise.
yeah, quit using melafix it is hard on gills and therefor breathing, get the sea salt
out and use regular salt. add 1 teaspoon salt per 5 gallons, no additives, dissolve
first, add slowly. do 50% water changes for the next 5 days (if you got the water
for it).
why do you think the fish has tape worms?
what kind of aeration do you have in the tank? minimum for a tank that size is 3
large airstones.
Ingrid

(Brad Isley) wrote:

>I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish.
>
>Tank info:
>
>54 gallon allglass bowfront with overflow and wet/dry.
>About 250 gph through the filter.
>Large rounded rocks for gravel (3/4" to 1.5").
>Not quite enough gravel to cover the glass.
>The idea is to not let the goldfish swallow smaller
>gravel yet allow them to move the rocks around to
>get the food off the tank bottom (which they do).
>Some fake plants are in the back in front of the overflow.
>
>Water:
>
>I use RO/DI with seachem equilibrium, alkaline and acid
>buffer to get the GH up to about 9-10. pH stays around 6.8.
>It's difficult to keep it stable over 7, so I stopped trying.
>During the initial startup of the tank about 8 months ago,
>there was a great deal of water changing to keep the ammonia
>and nitrites down, but that's old history. Currently, I do
>a 25% water change weekly. Nitrates are kept below 15ppm.
>I clean the glass every two weeks (it gets dirty quickly).
>I add 1 Tbsp instant ocean salt per 5 gallons as a medication.
>The tank is currently undergoing Melafix treatment (below).
>
>Temperature stays around 75F. I realize this is high for
>goldfish, but I'm not sure how to fix it unless I remove the
>wet-dry pump from the sump and/or add a chiller.
>
>Tank has 3 occupants:
>1) Red Ryukin fantail (about 7" nose to tail)
>2) White/gold/grey Oranda (about 7" nose to tail)
>3) Redcap Oranda (about 5" nose to tail)
>
>The white Oranda has health problems. He's a pretty cool
>guy who likes to be held and hand-fed (underwater, of course!)
>His cap is translucent white with an orange colored injury
>on the left side. The cap has swollen to cover his left eye.
>He also has tapeworms. Books I have consulted claim "the
>tapeworms aren't a serious problem, are almost impossible to
>cure, so don't worry." I'm not so sure...
>
>The obvious health issues started about 6 weeks ago. He
>started resting on the bottom, listless. We began Melafix
>treatment and saw immediate improvement. The Melafix was
>discontinued after a week with a resulting return to poor
>health. It was at this time we noticed the tank's ex-resident
>black moor (3" youngster) sucking the slime off of him.
>We would sometimes see the oranda go nose-over upside down and
>rest on the bottom inverted. While this greatly disturbs other
>family members, it doesn't seem to bother the fish much. The
>muscle tissue next to one of his pectoral fins seems red, like
>it's inflamed or irritated. His breathing always seems labored
>compared to the other tank occupants.
>
>The tank is back on Melafix. His health has improved, but
>the swollen cap, inflamed pectoral fin, breathing, and nose-
>overs aren't fixed yet.
>
>I'd like to return this fish to good health. He's like a wet
>puppy to us. Suggestions?
>
>
>We have several other tanks with no issues, but we did have
>a guppy tank which was wiped out by intestinal parasites. I
>suspect the guppy parasites are the source of the goldfish
>tapeworms.
>
>
>On another note, I'd like to improve the apperance of the tank.
>The rocks are growing a sickly-looking covering of brown algae.
>We're not thrilled with the appearance of them either, even without
>the algae. What would be a good substrate for goldfish? The books
>we have read all suggest something too large for them to injest,
>but this size substrate allows food to go down between the rocks
>where the fish can't get to it, where it rots and pollutes the
>water. I've considered sand as an alternative.
>
>Thanks in advance.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Brad Isley]

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote in message >...
> Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH.
> Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You
> could try adding a salt level of 0.3% to the tank, this may help kill the
> tapeworm (but I'm not 100% sure on that!)

In the note I mentioned seachem equilibrium. That's what I use to add
back mineral content to the RO/DI water in all my tanks. I add enough
to get the GH up to whatever the occupants like.

The tank gets a 25-50% change per week.

I'm adding instant ocean salt 1Tbsp/5gal.

[Brad Isley]

Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-)

Seachem acid and alkaline buffers are meant for planted tanks, so
these should be fine, right? I use these in preference to the
phosphate-based buffers.

Curious: what's wrong with using instant ocean? I use it because I
have it around for the salt tank. I'll look for some "plain"
non-iodized salt.

The cap has red streaks in the area above where it's growing over the
eye.

I see tapeworms in the poop.

The overflow with wet/dry filter should give plenty of air exchange,
yes? When I test O2 content, it's always nearly saturated.

thanks!

wrote in message >...
> try RO Right (?) altho 6.8 pH is fine. dont use buffers meant for salt water tanks.
> you could get some organic dolomitic limestone to add a bit more calcium. the main
> thing dragging the pH down is nitrites, rotting organics in the gravel or filter.
> use regular water softening crystal salt and dont use the ocean salt.
> 75-78oF is ideal for GF.
> uhhh.. orandas wens (caps) continue to grow and do grow over eyes. it may not be a
> bruise.
> yeah, quit using melafix it is hard on gills and therefor breathing, get the sea salt
> out and use regular salt. add 1 teaspoon salt per 5 gallons, no additives, dissolve
> first, add slowly. do 50% water changes for the next 5 days (if you got the water
> for it).
> why do you think the fish has tape worms?
> what kind of aeration do you have in the tank? minimum for a tank that size is 3
> large airstones.
> Ingrid
>
> (Brad Isley) wrote:
>
> >I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish.
> >
> >Tank info:
> >
> >54 gallon allglass bowfront with overflow and wet/dry.
> >About 250 gph through the filter.
> >Large rounded rocks for gravel (3/4" to 1.5").
> >Not quite enough gravel to cover the glass.
> >The idea is to not let the goldfish swallow smaller
> >gravel yet allow them to move the rocks around to
> >get the food off the tank bottom (which they do).
> >Some fake plants are in the back in front of the overflow.
> >
> >Water:
> >
> >I use RO/DI with seachem equilibrium, alkaline and acid
> >buffer to get the GH up to about 9-10. pH stays around 6.8.
> >It's difficult to keep it stable over 7, so I stopped trying.
> >During the initial startup of the tank about 8 months ago,
> >there was a great deal of water changing to keep the ammonia
> >and nitrites down, but that's old history. Currently, I do
> >a 25% water change weekly. Nitrates are kept below 15ppm.
> >I clean the glass every two weeks (it gets dirty quickly).
> >I add 1 Tbsp instant ocean salt per 5 gallons as a medication.
> >The tank is currently undergoing Melafix treatment (below).
> >
> >Temperature stays around 75F. I realize this is high for
> >goldfish, but I'm not sure how to fix it unless I remove the
> >wet-dry pump from the sump and/or add a chiller.
> >
> >Tank has 3 occupants:
> >1) Red Ryukin fantail (about 7" nose to tail)
> >2) White/gold/grey Oranda (about 7" nose to tail)
> >3) Redcap Oranda (about 5" nose to tail)
> >
> >The white Oranda has health problems. He's a pretty cool
> >guy who likes to be held and hand-fed (underwater, of course!)
> >His cap is translucent white with an orange colored injury
> >on the left side. The cap has swollen to cover his left eye.
> >He also has tapeworms. Books I have consulted claim "the
> >tapeworms aren't a serious problem, are almost impossible to
> >cure, so don't worry." I'm not so sure...
> >
> >The obvious health issues started about 6 weeks ago. He
> >started resting on the bottom, listless. We began Melafix
> >treatment and saw immediate improvement. The Melafix was
> >discontinued after a week with a resulting return to poor
> >health. It was at this time we noticed the tank's ex-resident
> >black moor (3" youngster) sucking the slime off of him.
> >We would sometimes see the oranda go nose-over upside down and
> >rest on the bottom inverted. While this greatly disturbs other
> >family members, it doesn't seem to bother the fish much. The
> >muscle tissue next to one of his pectoral fins seems red, like
> >it's inflamed or irritated. His breathing always seems labored
> >compared to the other tank occupants.
> >
> >The tank is back on Melafix. His health has improved, but
> >the swollen cap, inflamed pectoral fin, breathing, and nose-
> >overs aren't fixed yet.
> >
> >I'd like to return this fish to good health. He's like a wet
> >puppy to us. Suggestions?
> >
> >
> >We have several other tanks with no issues, but we did have
> >a guppy tank which was wiped out by intestinal parasites. I
> >suspect the guppy parasites are the source of the goldfish
> >tapeworms.
> >
> >
> >On another note, I'd like to improve the apperance of the tank.
> >The rocks are growing a sickly-looking covering of brown algae.
> >We're not thrilled with the appearance of them either, even without
> >the algae. What would be a good substrate for goldfish? The books
> >we have read all suggest something too large for them to injest,
> >but this size substrate allows food to go down between the rocks
> >where the fish can't get to it, where it rots and pollutes the
> >water. I've considered sand as an alternative.
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

dont use ocean salt with fresh water fish. use salt for fresh water. Ingrid

(Brad Isley) wrote:

>Geezer From The Freezer > wrote in message >...
>> Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH.
>> Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You
>> could try adding a salt level of 0.3% to the tank, this may help kill the
>> tapeworm (but I'm not 100% sure on that!)
>
>In the note I mentioned seachem equilibrium. That's what I use to add
>back mineral content to the RO/DI water in all my tanks. I add enough
>to get the GH up to whatever the occupants like.
>
>The tank gets a 25-50% change per week.
>
>I'm adding instant ocean salt 1Tbsp/5gal.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

I dont know what equilibrium is. I just know that the Goldfish Guru recommends RO
Right. get a salt/buffer system designed for fresh water and meant for fish, not
plants. Ocean salts are not suitable for fresh water fish.
what do you see of tapeworms, the segments? or a long thin white trailing substance?
actually, no filter gives sufficient oxygenation for GF. GF need a big airstone per
every 20 gallons, in fact 2 airstones for a 20 gallon. it moves the water from the
bottom to the top which is better for GF especially fancy GF than anything moving
sideways. Ingrid

(Brad Isley) wrote:

>Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-)
>
>Seachem acid and alkaline buffers are meant for planted tanks, so
>these should be fine, right? I use these in preference to the
>phosphate-based buffers.
>
>Curious: what's wrong with using instant ocean? I use it because I
>have it around for the salt tank. I'll look for some "plain"
>non-iodized salt.
>
>The cap has red streaks in the area above where it's growing over the
>eye.
>
>I see tapeworms in the poop.
>
>The overflow with wet/dry filter should give plenty of air exchange,
>yes? When I test O2 content, it's always nearly saturated.
>
>thanks!
>
wrote in message >...
>> try RO Right (?) altho 6.8 pH is fine. dont use buffers meant for salt water tanks.
>> you could get some organic dolomitic limestone to add a bit more calcium. the main
>> thing dragging the pH down is nitrites, rotting organics in the gravel or filter.
>> use regular water softening crystal salt and dont use the ocean salt.
>> 75-78oF is ideal for GF.
>> uhhh.. orandas wens (caps) continue to grow and do grow over eyes. it may not be a
>> bruise.
>> yeah, quit using melafix it is hard on gills and therefor breathing, get the sea salt
>> out and use regular salt. add 1 teaspoon salt per 5 gallons, no additives, dissolve
>> first, add slowly. do 50% water changes for the next 5 days (if you got the water
>> for it).
>> why do you think the fish has tape worms?
>> what kind of aeration do you have in the tank? minimum for a tank that size is 3
>> large airstones.
>> Ingrid
>>
>> (Brad Isley) wrote:
>>
>> >I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish.
>> >
>> >Tank info:
>> >
>> >54 gallon allglass bowfront with overflow and wet/dry.
>> >About 250 gph through the filter.
>> >Large rounded rocks for gravel (3/4" to 1.5").
>> >Not quite enough gravel to cover the glass.
>> >The idea is to not let the goldfish swallow smaller
>> >gravel yet allow them to move the rocks around to
>> >get the food off the tank bottom (which they do).
>> >Some fake plants are in the back in front of the overflow.
>> >
>> >Water:
>> >
>> >I use RO/DI with seachem equilibrium, alkaline and acid
>> >buffer to get the GH up to about 9-10. pH stays around 6.8.
>> >It's difficult to keep it stable over 7, so I stopped trying.
>> >During the initial startup of the tank about 8 months ago,
>> >there was a great deal of water changing to keep the ammonia
>> >and nitrites down, but that's old history. Currently, I do
>> >a 25% water change weekly. Nitrates are kept below 15ppm.
>> >I clean the glass every two weeks (it gets dirty quickly).
>> >I add 1 Tbsp instant ocean salt per 5 gallons as a medication.
>> >The tank is currently undergoing Melafix treatment (below).
>> >
>> >Temperature stays around 75F. I realize this is high for
>> >goldfish, but I'm not sure how to fix it unless I remove the
>> >wet-dry pump from the sump and/or add a chiller.
>> >
>> >Tank has 3 occupants:
>> >1) Red Ryukin fantail (about 7" nose to tail)
>> >2) White/gold/grey Oranda (about 7" nose to tail)
>> >3) Redcap Oranda (about 5" nose to tail)
>> >
>> >The white Oranda has health problems. He's a pretty cool
>> >guy who likes to be held and hand-fed (underwater, of course!)
>> >His cap is translucent white with an orange colored injury
>> >on the left side. The cap has swollen to cover his left eye.
>> >He also has tapeworms. Books I have consulted claim "the
>> >tapeworms aren't a serious problem, are almost impossible to
>> >cure, so don't worry." I'm not so sure...
>> >
>> >The obvious health issues started about 6 weeks ago. He
>> >started resting on the bottom, listless. We began Melafix
>> >treatment and saw immediate improvement. The Melafix was
>> >discontinued after a week with a resulting return to poor
>> >health. It was at this time we noticed the tank's ex-resident
>> >black moor (3" youngster) sucking the slime off of him.
>> >We would sometimes see the oranda go nose-over upside down and
>> >rest on the bottom inverted. While this greatly disturbs other
>> >family members, it doesn't seem to bother the fish much. The
>> >muscle tissue next to one of his pectoral fins seems red, like
>> >it's inflamed or irritated. His breathing always seems labored
>> >compared to the other tank occupants.
>> >
>> >The tank is back on Melafix. His health has improved, but
>> >the swollen cap, inflamed pectoral fin, breathing, and nose-
>> >overs aren't fixed yet.
>> >
>> >I'd like to return this fish to good health. He's like a wet
>> >puppy to us. Suggestions?
>> >
>> >
>> >We have several other tanks with no issues, but we did have
>> >a guppy tank which was wiped out by intestinal parasites. I
>> >suspect the guppy parasites are the source of the goldfish
>> >tapeworms.
>> >
>> >
>> >On another note, I'd like to improve the apperance of the tank.
>> >The rocks are growing a sickly-looking covering of brown algae.
>> >We're not thrilled with the appearance of them either, even without
>> >the algae. What would be a good substrate for goldfish? The books
>> >we have read all suggest something too large for them to injest,
>> >but this size substrate allows food to go down between the rocks
>> >where the fish can't get to it, where it rots and pollutes the
>> >water. I've considered sand as an alternative.
>> >
>> >Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>> www.drsolo.com
>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>> endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-)
>
>Seachem acid and alkaline buffers are meant for planted tanks, so
>these should be fine, right? I use these in preference to the
>phosphate-based buffers.

You are correct, stick with seachem. Healthy plant=healthy fish. Equilibrium is
excellent.

>I see tapeworms in the poop.

Check again, they don't usually leave the fish.

>The overflow with wet/dry filter should give plenty of air exchange,
>yes? When I test O2 content, it's always nearly saturated.

Can't do much better than that.

[Brad Isley]

Hi, Ingrid,

Thanks for the help. Comments inline...


wrote in message >...
> I dont know what equilibrium is. I just know that the Goldfish Guru recommends RO
> Right. get a salt/buffer system designed for fresh water and meant for fish, not
> plants.

Equilibrium's intended purpose is the same as Kent's RO Right.
The buffers I'm using are intended for fresh water.

> Ocean salts are not suitable for fresh water fish.

Ok. I'll find some pure sodium chloride.

> what do you see of tapeworms, the segments? or a long thin white trailing substance?

Perhaps it's not tapeworms. It's a long white trailing substance
which looks a lot like a tapeworm. They have what appears to be a
small head once out of the fish.

> actually, no filter gives sufficient oxygenation for GF. GF need a big airstone per
> every 20 gallons, in fact 2 airstones for a 20 gallon. it moves the water from the
> bottom to the top which is better for GF especially fancy GF than anything moving
> sideways.

I could add airstone or two, but the huge wet/dry filter and overflow
is dissolving more O2 than any airstone or two ever could. The water
is nearly saturated with O2 according to the Tetra test.

I have the return from the filter going to a spraybar which provides
the movement you're suggesting (up), but there's always going to be
some sideways movement if the water moves at all. The water going up
has to go back down. To get down, it has to go sideways. ;-)

I'm making use of the materials on the puregold website and will get a
"fish test" report out soon...

thanks!

[[email protected]]

(Brad Isley) wrote:
>Equilibrium's intended purpose is the same as Kent's RO Right.
>The buffers I'm using are intended for fresh water.

..... that's great then

>Perhaps it's not tapeworms. It's a long white trailing substance
>which looks a lot like a tapeworm. They have what appears to be a
>small head once out of the fish.

....... long trailing white can be internal infection or represents white food being
fed (like cooked rice).
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/technique/technique.html#JoAnns_diagnosis_by_poop
it is more likely to be something like this. tapeworms normally come one per
customer and they reproduce by shedding mature egg case segments of their "tape" not
by dangling outside the fish.

>I could add airstone or two, but the huge wet/dry filter and overflow
>is dissolving more O2 than any airstone or two ever could. The water
>is nearly saturated with O2 according to the Tetra test.

..... airstones do two things, they put oxygen into the water and also move water from
the bottom to the top and set up a very beneficial flow of water. airstones also
help move other gases out of the water. check some FAQS at aquatic ecosystems
online.
use a couple airstones. the fish even like surfing in the bubble stream.

>I have the return from the filter going to a spraybar which provides
>the movement you're suggesting (up), but there's always going to be
>some sideways movement if the water moves at all. The water going up
>has to go back down. To get down, it has to go sideways. ;-)

....... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways movement at all.
Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

wrote:

> ...... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways
> movement at all.

?!!!?

Before I run out to my spare tank with food coloring, could you please
clarify that statement?

Wouldn't the downward stream due to the water feeding into the tank need
a corresponding upward flow at the other side? (And hence side to side
flow?)

It's been a lot of years since Fluid Dynamics, but I seem to recall
those equations being cross products...

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[[email protected]]

now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect determining the flow
pattern of waterfall downward flow requires calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics)
so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some sideways flow. but
for sideways I was comparing it to the flow of a power head that shoots out in one
direction and it is horizontal.
when I look at the bubbles or flow of my waterfall it seems to go down into the water
and GF do seemed to be pushed a little down by waterfall, but I have never seen a GF
pushed sideways by it, so it would seem the sideways flow is not strong anyway.
sideways flow is not optimal for mixing water in a tank. a waterfall isnt either.
air stones 1" off the bottom of the bottom moves the water from the bottom to the top
and creates a bottom to top flow which does maximize mixing without pushing or
fatiguing GF. Ingrid

Donald KH > wrote:

wrote:
>
>> ...... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways
>> movement at all.
>
>?!!!?
>
>Before I run out to my spare tank with food coloring, could you please
>clarify that statement?
>
>Wouldn't the downward stream due to the water feeding into the tank need
>a corresponding upward flow at the other side? (And hence side to side
>flow?)
>
>It's been a lot of years since Fluid Dynamics, but I seem to recall
>those equations being cross products...
>
>-D



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

wrote:

> now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect
> determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires
> calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics)
> so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some
> sideways flow.

Yup, nasty 3 (and occasionally 4) D vector calculus to be precise.

There would have to be a sideways flow, otherwise you'd get a "heap" of
water...

Coffee is good. :-)

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Tom L. La Bron]

Donald,

I don't know a lot about fluid dynamics and the math
sure does escapes me, but I can observe my filters and
their design, and I don't know what kind of filters you
have, and I think Ingrid has said she has AquaClears,
so I have Aquascapes and AquaClear filters and if the
water level in your tank is not below the cascade of
the filter, i.e., the edge of the filter cascade is
below or at the water level, like it has been designed
the water comes down off the cascade and hits a almost
90 degree lip on the cascade that directs the water
across the top of the tank.

Now if the water level is below the cascade lip then
the water is force outward a ways and it then drops
into the water vertically causing a downward action
water that causes a circular motion across the bottom
of the tank to come up on the other side causing a
circular movement of the water. My AquaClears are all
brand new so this is how they are suppose to work
forcing the water across the top of the tank because of
the lip, but this only occurs if the water level in
your tank is above or at the lip.

HTH

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
Donald K wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
>>now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect
>>determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires
>>calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics)
>>so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some
>>sideways flow.
>
>
> Yup, nasty 3 (and occasionally 4) D vector calculus to be precise.
>
> There would have to be a sideways flow, otherwise you'd get a "heap" of
> water...
>
> Coffee is good. :-)
>
> -D

[[email protected]]

when I look at my whispers what I see is turbulence right under the "return" and air
bubbles going downward vertically (OK, I dont look at it from the side and see how
far out the water moves horizontally. If the water is returning and pushing downward
and the intake is right below (in my whispers, in the aquaclears it is off center)
then it seems that the flow is a sorta short circular up and down path... maybe if it
shoots out more it is still a complete circular up and down path right in front of
the filter. The water sucking in at the bottom doesnt seem to pull stuff from the
edges very well. I do wish somebody would do a dye experiment and put up an MPG.
Ingrid

Donald K > wrote:

wrote:
>
>> now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect
>> determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires
>> calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics)
>> so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some
>> sideways flow.
>
>Yup, nasty 3 (and occasionally 4) D vector calculus to be precise.
>
>There would have to be a sideways flow, otherwise you'd get a "heap" of
>water...
>
>Coffee is good. :-)
>
>-D



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.