What do I need for an undergravel filter setup?

[stemc ©]

Hi there,

I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and running,
I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)

We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are currently
using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more than
enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that undergravel
filters are better, is this true?

Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job on this
tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do this?
I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as though
there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to be
honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.

I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are available in
the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that would be
great.

Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.

Ste

[[email protected]]

no .. undergravel filters or gravel is not good for GF. easier is no gravel at all.

http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
Ingrid

"stemc ©" > wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and running,
>I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
>
>We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are currently
>using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more than
>enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that undergravel
>filters are better, is this true?
>
>Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job on this
>tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do this?
>I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as though
>there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to be
>honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.
>
>I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are available in
>the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that would be
>great.
>
>Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.
>
>Ste
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[stemc ©]

I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there to make
the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?

Apart from the risks of having gravel in the tank, what is wrong with
undergravel filters for goldfish, if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks,

Ste


> wrote in message
...
| no .. undergravel filters or gravel is not good for GF. easier is no
gravel at all.
|
| http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
| Ingrid
|
| "stemc ©" > wrote:
|
| >Hi there,
| >
| >I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and
running,
| >I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
| >
| >We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are
currently
| >using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more
than
| >enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that undergravel
| >filters are better, is this true?
| >
| >Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job on this
| >tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do this?
| >I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as though
| >there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to be
| >honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.
| >
| >I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are available
in
| >the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that would
be
| >great.
| >
| >Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.
| >
| >Ste
| >
|
|
|
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
| http://puregold.aquaria.net/
| www.drsolo.com
| Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
| compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
| endorsements or recommendations I make.

[E.Otter]

Never used a UGF before, but when I was doing research on getting my first
real tank I found the following about UGF's:
1) They only do biological filtering, they do it well but that isn't enough.
A successful tank should have mechanical filtration as well. In this case
you would need to keep your fluval filter to do everything the UGF couldn't.
2) Overtime the gravel becomes filled with too much fish waste, excess food,
and other stuff. This makes it more difficult to draw water through the
gravel to be filtered making the UGF less effective.
3) If the UGF needed to be replaced it would be difficult and messy to
remove.


Check to see if you can get foam inserts for the fluval. Foam would become
a "house" for the bacteria that does the biological filteration. You
probably wouldn't need a second filter then.

E.Otter

[stemac©]

"E.Otter" > wrote in message
ink.net...
| Never used a UGF before, but when I was doing research on getting my first
| real tank I found the following about UGF's:
| 1) They only do biological filtering, they do it well but that isn't
enough.
| A successful tank should have mechanical filtration as well. In this case
| you would need to keep your fluval filter to do everything the UGF
couldn't.
| 2) Overtime the gravel becomes filled with too much fish waste, excess
food,
| and other stuff. This makes it more difficult to draw water through the
| gravel to be filtered making the UGF less effective.
| 3) If the UGF needed to be replaced it would be difficult and messy to
| remove.

Thanks for listing those points, it looks like an undergravel filter won't
be much use then, if we've got to keep the Fluval filter anyway.

One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the fulval
filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel filter
would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.

As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's in the
tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater hoovers
which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without taking it
out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and cleaning
the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the gravel,
bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.


| Check to see if you can get foam inserts for the fluval. Foam would
become
| a "house" for the bacteria that does the biological filteration. You
| probably wouldn't need a second filter then.

We have both foam inserts and polyester inserts for our Fulval filter.


| E.Otter

Thanks,

Ste

[E.Otter]

> I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there to make
> the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?
>

Unless you have plants or a UGF you don't need a substrate. I've gone from one
extreme of lots of gravel to the other with no gravel and now I'm somewhere in
between. Zero gravel is incredibly easy to clean. You can see anything on the
tank bottom that has to be removed. Zip Zip algae scrub. Zap Zap clean
bottom. Zap Zip 20% water change. Everything done in under 20 minutes! Lots of
gravel was a major pain to keep clean. Frankly I couldn't do the whole bottom
like I wanted to every week and it always took a long time and I always removed
too much water.

I like the look of my gravel though so I now I just have a thin layer of gravel,
enough so I can't see the glass underneath. It takes about 30 minutes to just
gravel vac the whole tank bottom. Even so I still find myself chucking a
handfull of gravel every other week.

I've heard people using sand, glass beads, larger rocks. You could also put
something underneath the tank to give the bottom some color. I have just plain
carboard under the tank but you can't tell its carboard unless you look really
close. What it does it make the bottom sort-of mirrored. In the tank center is
a castle decoration and I removed the gravel entirely from in front of it. It
makes it look like there is a pond inside the tank.

I've seen some "bare bottom" tanks that looked cool. The tank still has
decorations so its not completely empty.
E.Otter

[[email protected]]

get a big whisper filter that sits on the hangs on teh outside of the tank.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm
in the care section is "hardware" and a section on cleaning gravel with a siphon aka
python.
"clean" is a function of nitrate levels. if you can keep nitrates at or under 20 ppm
then water changes are done as required.
right. if bits of crap come up from touching the gravel it is already packed with
crap and it not only rots anaerobically releasing toxic gases, it is preventing the
gravel from functioning as a biofilter too.
the GF root around in the gravel after food and will suction as they do it, suction
pockets of toxic gases over their gills. gravel must be completely cleaned at least
every other week to prevent this kind of "channeling" of water/nutrients under the
plate. soon the pH will start dropping, but first the nitrates are going to be high
and uncontrollable. Ingrid

"stemac©" > wrote:
>One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the fulval
>filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel filter
>would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.
>
>As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's in the
>tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater hoovers
>which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
>something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without taking it
>out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and cleaning
>the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the gravel,
>bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

I use large stones, and some smaller white stones. They are all too big to
fit in my goldfish's mouths. I don't have to many either just a few. I also
have potted plants and a couple of bridge ornaments. Having the tank as bare
bottom
is so easy to keep clean. Also easier to analyze their poop incase of internal
bacterial
problems.

[ste©]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
|
| I use large stones, and some smaller white stones. They are all too big to
| fit in my goldfish's mouths. I don't have to many either just a few. I
also
| have potted plants and a couple of bridge ornaments. Having the tank as
bare
| bottom
| is so easy to keep clean. Also easier to analyze their poop incase of
internal
| bacterial
| problems.

I'll probably go the same way myself, with some small stones (but bigger
than gravel). My job will be finding some that are suitable for fish.

Out of interest, if I can't find any in the local pet/aquatic stores, will
pebbles from DIY stores be okay if I treat them in a certain way first?

We had a log ornament in our tank, but Albi (one of our fantails) got stuck
in it the other day. We carefully got him out, and threw this log in the
bin. We have replaced this with a giant mug, and the fish seem to like it -
Albi insists on putting gravel in there! :o)

Thanks,

Ste

[ste©]

"E.Otter" > wrote in message
ink.net...
|
| > I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there to
make
| > the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?
| >
|
| Unless you have plants or a UGF you don't need a substrate. I've gone
from one
| extreme of lots of gravel to the other with no gravel and now I'm
somewhere in
| between. Zero gravel is incredibly easy to clean. You can see anything
on the
| tank bottom that has to be removed. Zip Zip algae scrub. Zap Zap clean
| bottom. Zap Zip 20% water change. Everything done in under 20 minutes!
Lots of
| gravel was a major pain to keep clean. Frankly I couldn't do the whole
bottom
| like I wanted to every week and it always took a long time and I always
removed
| too much water.
|
| I like the look of my gravel though so I now I just have a thin layer of
gravel,
| enough so I can't see the glass underneath. It takes about 30 minutes to
just
| gravel vac the whole tank bottom. Even so I still find myself chucking a
| handfull of gravel every other week.
|
| I've heard people using sand, glass beads, larger rocks. You could also
put
| something underneath the tank to give the bottom some color. I have just
plain
| carboard under the tank but you can't tell its carboard unless you look
really
| close. What it does it make the bottom sort-of mirrored. In the tank
center is
| a castle decoration and I removed the gravel entirely from in front of it.
It
| makes it look like there is a pond inside the tank.
|
| I've seen some "bare bottom" tanks that looked cool. The tank still has
| decorations so its not completely empty.
| E.Otter


Yes, I could certainly imagine how much easier it would be for a bare bottom
tank (or even a barer bottom tank), but for me, it all comes down to what
looks pretty. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against bare bottoms,
but when it comes to fish tanks, there's got to be something there. If not
gravel, then I'm certainly up for suggestions for alternatives, and will
keep a look out. Your suggestion for slightly larger rocks is probably
worth looking into - perhaps some pebbles?

Thanks,

Ste

[ste©]

I was going to get a syphon, but for now, we're just sticking with buckets -
11 or 12 bucket fulls! :-(

Our tank is nice and clean from our 20-30% water changes (and a clean up of
the glass and filter), and my girlfriend looks after all the chemical levels
as we got a kit last year. Everything is fine in that department.

They say 'if it ain't broken, don't fix it,' but I like to tinker with
things and perfect them, which is why I was looking into undergravel
filters. I will now steer clear of them.

I will also look into getting some pebbles for the bottom of the tank
instead of gravel, as hopefully this will combine 'looking pretty' with
'being safe for the fish.'

Thanks,

Ste


> wrote in message
...
| get a big whisper filter that sits on the hangs on teh outside of the
tank.
| http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm
| in the care section is "hardware" and a section on cleaning gravel with a
siphon aka
| python.
| "clean" is a function of nitrate levels. if you can keep nitrates at or
under 20 ppm
| then water changes are done as required.
| right. if bits of crap come up from touching the gravel it is already
packed with
| crap and it not only rots anaerobically releasing toxic gases, it is
preventing the
| gravel from functioning as a biofilter too.
| the GF root around in the gravel after food and will suction as they do
it, suction
| pockets of toxic gases over their gills. gravel must be completely
cleaned at least
| every other week to prevent this kind of "channeling" of water/nutrients
under the
| plate. soon the pH will start dropping, but first the nitrates are going
to be high
| and uncontrollable. Ingrid
|
| "stemac©" > wrote:
| >One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the
fulval
| >filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel filter
| >would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.
| >
| >As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's in
the
| >tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater
hoovers
| >which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
| >something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without taking it
| >out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and
cleaning
| >the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the
gravel,
| >bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.
|
|
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
| http://puregold.aquaria.net/
| www.drsolo.com
| Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
| compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
| endorsements or recommendations I make.

[E.Otter]

I've seen bags of large pebbles for fish tanks at my local petsmart and at one
local fish store. Like gravel, stay away from anything painted because sooner
or later the paint chips off.

I know lots of people use "wild" rocks too. Dr. Solo's has a quick blurb at
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care2.htm#decoratioins that you would want
to check out. The thing to remember is that just because its a rock, it could
leach chemicals/minerals into the tank. For example, I saw some nice pieces of
slate at a small park the town is redoing. But its right near private property
that has been treated with weed killer. Do I want to chance using
poison-covered rocks in my tank? Nope.

On some other web site I read that a guy cleaned and boiled the rock and then
put it into a bucket of water and let it sit for a week. For comparison he
would have another bucket with the same amount of water in it but no rocks sit
right next to rock-bucket. At the end of the week any difference between the
two in pH, alkalinity/general hardness, etc... would be due to minerals leached
by the rocks. The comparison bucket is to make sure that changes in these
things are due to the rock and not to the water "degassing" disolved CO2 or
other stuff. Obviously if the rock changes things too much you want to get rid
of it. This method might be going overboard.

I've thought about doing that, but I would never be able to explain my actions
without my wife thinking I've gone completely nuts.

E.Otter

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ste,

Undergravel filters are just fine. The big thing that
is usually not done properly is that an UGF should have
1 1/2 inch to 2 inches of gravel over the filter plate.
Most people put to little gravel which is one of the
problems. I have had UGF's running in tanks for long
periods of time. The longest time is 14 years. UGF's
are susceptible to the same problems any other filter
is susceptible to which are over crowding, overfeeding
and neglect.

The problems that Ingrid relates in her message
suggests to me someone is not paying attention to their
micro environment that aquarium establishes and is
really a good example of poor animal husbandry. I have
never been able to figure out her problem with UGFs,
but she sure bad mouths them all the time. Of course,
I have also come to the conclusion it is an escape goat
for problems, blame it on the UGF and not the
individual who is suppose to be managing the aquarium
environment.

In a Goldfish environment, I usually have an UGF with
the addition of a small outside powerfilter. The
portion of her message where she mentions rotting and
anaerobic activity releasing toxic gases is a bunch of
horse crap. Anybody who would allow their tank to get
to that condition should not be allowed to have
aquariums or fish.

Most of the time when I have tanks setup with UGF's I
use airstones in the risers.

As I said before, UGF's and powerfilters are
susceptible to the same problems, neglect, overfeeding
and overcrowding.

HTH

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------
ste© wrote:
> I was going to get a syphon, but for now, we're just sticking with buckets -
> 11 or 12 bucket fulls! :-(
>
> Our tank is nice and clean from our 20-30% water changes (and a clean up of
> the glass and filter), and my girlfriend looks after all the chemical levels
> as we got a kit last year. Everything is fine in that department.
>
> They say 'if it ain't broken, don't fix it,' but I like to tinker with
> things and perfect them, which is why I was looking into undergravel
> filters. I will now steer clear of them.
>
> I will also look into getting some pebbles for the bottom of the tank
> instead of gravel, as hopefully this will combine 'looking pretty' with
> 'being safe for the fish.'
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ste
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> | get a big whisper filter that sits on the hangs on teh outside of the
> tank.
> | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm
> | in the care section is "hardware" and a section on cleaning gravel with a
> siphon aka
> | python.
> | "clean" is a function of nitrate levels. if you can keep nitrates at or
> under 20 ppm
> | then water changes are done as required.
> | right. if bits of crap come up from touching the gravel it is already
> packed with
> | crap and it not only rots anaerobically releasing toxic gases, it is
> preventing the
> | gravel from functioning as a biofilter too.
> | the GF root around in the gravel after food and will suction as they do
> it, suction
> | pockets of toxic gases over their gills. gravel must be completely
> cleaned at least
> | every other week to prevent this kind of "channeling" of water/nutrients
> under the
> | plate. soon the pH will start dropping, but first the nitrates are going
> to be high
> | and uncontrollable. Ingrid
> |
> | "stemac©" > wrote:
> | >One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the
> fulval
> | >filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel filter
> | >would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.
> | >
> | >As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's in
> the
> | >tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater
> hoovers
> | >which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
> | >something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without taking it
> | >out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and
> cleaning
> | >the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the
> gravel,
> | >bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.
> |
> |
> | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> | www.drsolo.com
> | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> | endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>

[Adam Gottschalk]

In article t>,
"E.Otter" > wrote:

> The comparison bucket is to make sure that changes in these
> things are due to the rock and not to the water "degassing" disolved CO2 or
> other stuff. Obviously if the rock changes things too much you want to get
> rid
> of it. This method might be going overboard.

Sounds to me like the only way to do it.

[sophie]

In message >, Larry Blanchard
> writes
>In article >,
says...
>> If not
>> gravel, then I'm certainly up for suggestions for alternatives, and will
>> keep a look out. Your suggestion for slightly larger rocks is probably
>> worth looking into - perhaps some pebbles?
>>
>There was a thread in this group or another aquaria group a
>while back about using sand instead of gravel. Won't get stuck
>in a fish's throat, and no big crevices for waste to hide in.
>And it looks natural. At least that was the proponents claims.
>As usual, there were differing opinions :-).

I've been puzzled as to how you'd vac. it - wouldn't it just all get
siphoned up?
>

--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

sophie wrote:
> I've been puzzled as to how you'd vac. it - wouldn't it just all get
> siphoned up?
> >
>
> --
> sophie

Sand compacts. You just learn how close to put the vac to the sand...poop
comes off before the sand does!

[sophie]

In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
>
>
>sophie wrote:
>> I've been puzzled as to how you'd vac. it - wouldn't it just all get
>> siphoned up?
>> >
>>
>> --
>> sophie
>
>Sand compacts. You just learn how close to put the vac to the sand...poop
>comes off before the sand does!

aha. now I just need to find out what sort of sand to get; I'd been
thinking of bigger gravel, but sand and some big stones sounds nicer.

--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

I had sand once, it became a nightmare...in the filters, over the plants, and
not
too great on goldies - sand paper?

sophie wrote:
>
> aha. now I just need to find out what sort of sand to get; I'd been
> thinking of bigger gravel, but sand and some big stones sounds nicer.
>
> --
> sophie

[BErney1014]

>I had sand once, it became a nightmare...in the filters, over the plants,
>and
>not
>too great on goldies - sand paper?

Anything can be a nightmare if you don't know what you are doing with it.
A sand bottom is best; the bottom stays clean, the fish are in a natural
environment when they are less stressed and can use their instinctive foraging
mechanisms. Common sense must be applied to keep the filter intakes up and away
from the bottom. A number of ways to keep sand from being injested by a filter
can be devised.

[sophie]

In message >, Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
>I had sand once, it became a nightmare...in the filters, over the plants, and
>not
>too great on goldies - sand paper?

in that it sands them down? I can see that they might go mad rootling
around in it, but if it compacts, that shouldn't be too much of a
problem? the filter I use (fluval) has the intake at the top, so I can't
see it sucking up a lot of sand. And I was thinking it might be better
to actually root the plants down in something, now I've come across
something my goldfish won't eat.


>
>sophie wrote:
>>
>> aha. now I just need to find out what sort of sand to get; I'd been
>> thinking of bigger gravel, but sand and some big stones sounds nicer.
>>
>> --
>> sophie

--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >I had sand once, it became a nightmare...in the filters, over the plants,
> >and
> >not
> >too great on goldies - sand paper?
>
> Anything can be a nightmare if you don't know what you are doing with it.
> A sand bottom is best; the bottom stays clean, the fish are in a natural
> environment when they are less stressed and can use their instinctive foraging
> mechanisms. Common sense must be applied to keep the filter intakes up and away
> from the bottom. A number of ways to keep sand from being injested by a filter
> can be devised.

Actually the sand got in the filters from the goldies pulling it in swimming up
and
spitting it out. Also sand is not their natural enviroment.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Sophie wrote:

> in that it sands them down? I can see that they might go mad rootling
> around in it, but if it compacts, that shouldn't be too much of a
> problem? the filter I use (fluval) has the intake at the top, so I can't
> see it sucking up a lot of sand. And I was thinking it might be better
> to actually root the plants down in something, now I've come across
> something my goldfish won't eat.

I suppose when it really comes down to it, you choose what you like best.
I have bare bottom with a few large pebbles and rounded stones and use
baskets or pots to put my plants in. Good luck though whatever you choose :D

[[email protected]]

I kept my bucket filter going all winter and removed it this spring to find stones in
it, only way they could get there is koi picking them off the bottom or out of the
water lily and dumping them into the pot .... that is how the bottom of the pond got
a coating of stones. Ingrid

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:
>Actually the sand got in the filters from the goldies pulling it in swimming up
>and
>spitting it out. Also sand is not their natural enviroment.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[ste©]

"E.Otter" > wrote in message
nk.net...
| I've seen bags of large pebbles for fish tanks at my local petsmart and at
one
| local fish store. Like gravel, stay away from anything painted because
sooner
| or later the paint chips off.

I'll keep well clear of the painted stuff. Anyway, I prefer natural looking
ones I won't even be tempted for any 'pink' stones or anything! :o)


| I know lots of people use "wild" rocks too. Dr. Solo's has a quick blurb
at
| http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care2.htm#decoratioins that you would
want
| to check out. The thing to remember is that just because its a rock, it
could
| leach chemicals/minerals into the tank. For example, I saw some nice
pieces of
| slate at a small park the town is redoing. But its right near private
property
| that has been treated with weed killer. Do I want to chance using
| poison-covered rocks in my tank? Nope.

Thanks, I've just read the blurb on her website. And I hope you weren't
considering stealing those pieces of slate from that lovely park! ;-)


| On some other web site I read that a guy cleaned and boiled the rock and
then
| put it into a bucket of water and let it sit for a week. For comparison
he
| would have another bucket with the same amount of water in it but no rocks
sit
| right next to rock-bucket. At the end of the week any difference between
the
| two in pH, alkalinity/general hardness, etc... would be due to minerals
leached
| by the rocks. The comparison bucket is to make sure that changes in these
| things are due to the rock and not to the water "degassing" disolved CO2
or
| other stuff. Obviously if the rock changes things too much you want to
get rid
| of it. This method might be going overboard.

It does sound very fussy, but I like peace of mind so I will definitely do
something similar if I change from gravel to something else. Do you have
the link for that other website by any chance?


|
| I've thought about doing that, but I would never be able to explain my
actions
| without my wife thinking I've gone completely nuts.

Haha, I know what you mean! I'm quite crafty though, and when we bought our
first goldfish, although I wanted them, I made out that I didn't and that I
was only going along with it for my girlfriend. So when she was trying to
talk me into buying them, I said 'we can get them, but only if you're
prepared to do all the cleaning, feeding, etc...' She replied 'fine!' And
I said 'fine, get them then' ;-)


| E.Otter

Thanks again for your advice,

Ste

[ste©]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
| In article >,
| says...
| > If not
| > gravel, then I'm certainly up for suggestions for alternatives, and will
| > keep a look out. Your suggestion for slightly larger rocks is probably
| > worth looking into - perhaps some pebbles?
| >
| There was a thread in this group or another aquaria group a
| while back about using sand instead of gravel. Won't get stuck
| in a fish's throat, and no big crevices for waste to hide in.
| And it looks natural. At least that was the proponents claims.
| As usual, there were differing opinions :-).

Yes, there always seems to be differing opinions wherever you go! :-) I
don't want opinions, I want facts! :-)

I think that we're more likely to look for small pebbles to replace the
gravel rather than sand, but you never know in the future. I've seen plenty
of tropical tanks in fish shops that have sand, and it does look very nice.

Ste

[HTH]

The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
<quote>
For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to quartz.
It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are reasonably easy
to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank anything harmful or
liable to make your PH go places you don't want. They don't absorb
things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz, amethyst, citrine, agates...

Slates usually work well, but you have to be careful they haven't soaked
up any chemicals or are harboring petrolium type compounds. Mica and
selenite are sold as 'ice rock' and usually are ok depending on what
sort of mica it is and how it was collected and where it came from.

Most other rocks will directly interact with your tank and water
chemistry. Be especially careful of dolomite, limestone, coral.... If
you are in doubt, take your rock and try dripping some vinegar on it and
see if it bubbles. If you get any reaction at all don't use it. Yes,
those three are used in certain situations to either raise PH or
hardness of the water, and will literally dissolve after awhile. I don't
suggest you use them UNLESS you WANT those things to happen. Most of the
time you don't.

Quartz usually just needs a rinsing off and can be put directly into
your tank. Slates, mica, and selenite should be pail soaked with a few
water changes to make sure it's really clean.

Warning...Halite can look really cool. It's salt. Plain ol' salt. You
put it in the tank, it'll dissolve. A nice sized chunk will also kill
your fish, from raising the salinity (salt content) of the water as it
dissolves. Realgar and orphiment are mica-looking rocks that come in
beautiful shades of yellow, orange, red, and sort of irridescent. These
are highly poisonous. Sulfur looks pretty and is yellow. Also deadly.
Most of the shiny metallics (fools gold, bornite or peacock ore, galena,
hematite, copper, turquoise, malachite, azurite, etc) and copper bearing
minerals, will leach into your water and cause big problems.

Lava rock. Often called pumice. Porous or sharp glassy look. Either it
has sharp edges and is hazardous to your fish as a cut/scrape hazard,
and/or it can harbor lots of stuff and leach it into your water. Best to
avoid.

Deb
The Rock Lady
</quote>
stemc © wrote:

> I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there to make
> the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?
>
> Apart from the risks of having gravel in the tank, what is wrong with
> undergravel filters for goldfish, if you don't mind me asking?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ste
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> | no .. undergravel filters or gravel is not good for GF. easier is no
> gravel at all.
> |
> | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
> | Ingrid
> |
> | "stemc ©" > wrote:
> |
> | >Hi there,
> | >
> | >I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and
> running,
> | >I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
> | >
> | >We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are
> currently
> | >using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more
> than
> | >enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that undergravel
> | >filters are better, is this true?
> | >
> | >Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job on this
> | >tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do this?
> | >I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as though
> | >there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to be
> | >honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.
> | >
> | >I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are available
> in
> | >the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that would
> be
> | >great.
> | >
> | >Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.
> | >
> | >Ste
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> | www.drsolo.com
> | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> | endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[sophie]

In message >, HTH >
writes
>The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
>http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
><quote>
>For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to quartz.
>It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are reasonably easy
>to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank anything harmful
>or liable to make your PH go places you don't want. They don't absorb
>things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz, amethyst, citrine, agates...


what about nice round flinty kind of things from an organic garden?


>
>Slates usually work well, but you have to be careful they haven't
>soaked up any chemicals or are harboring petrolium type compounds. Mica
>and selenite are sold as 'ice rock' and usually are ok depending on
>what sort of mica it is and how it was collected and where it came from.
>
>Most other rocks will directly interact with your tank and water
>chemistry. Be especially careful of dolomite, limestone, coral.... If
>you are in doubt, take your rock and try dripping some vinegar on it
>and see if it bubbles. If you get any reaction at all don't use it.
>Yes, those three are used in certain situations to either raise PH or
>hardness of the water, and will literally dissolve after awhile. I
>don't suggest you use them UNLESS you WANT those things to happen. Most
>of the time you don't.
>
>Quartz usually just needs a rinsing off and can be put directly into
>your tank. Slates, mica, and selenite should be pail soaked with a few
>water changes to make sure it's really clean.
>
>Warning...Halite can look really cool. It's salt. Plain ol' salt. You
>put it in the tank, it'll dissolve. A nice sized chunk will also kill
>your fish, from raising the salinity (salt content) of the water as it
>dissolves. Realgar and orphiment are mica-looking rocks that come in
>beautiful shades of yellow, orange, red, and sort of irridescent. These
>are highly poisonous. Sulfur looks pretty and is yellow. Also deadly.
>Most of the shiny metallics (fools gold, bornite or peacock ore,
>galena, hematite, copper, turquoise, malachite, azurite, etc) and
>copper bearing minerals, will leach into your water and cause big problems.
>
>Lava rock. Often called pumice. Porous or sharp glassy look. Either it
>has sharp edges and is hazardous to your fish as a cut/scrape hazard,
>and/or it can harbor lots of stuff and leach it into your water. Best
>to avoid.
>



--
sophie

[ste©]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

We have about 2-3 inches of gravel in our 20 gallon tank - when cleaning, it
fills a bucket to the brim (about 12 litres a bucket), therefore, we would
be okay in your first point about UGF's.

You and Ingrid seem to like each other a lot, are you both married by any
chance? ;-)

I'm going to stick with my Fluval 4 Plus filter for now, but I'll keep these
threads in mind if we decide to change. Before I posted, I thought that
UGF's were the norm and that I was using an unusual setup, but I guess ours
is okay for now.

Thanks again Tom,

Ste




"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
| Ste,
|
| Undergravel filters are just fine. The big thing that
| is usually not done properly is that an UGF should have
| 1 1/2 inch to 2 inches of gravel over the filter plate.
| Most people put to little gravel which is one of the
| problems. I have had UGF's running in tanks for long
| periods of time. The longest time is 14 years. UGF's
| are susceptible to the same problems any other filter
| is susceptible to which are over crowding, overfeeding
| and neglect.
|
| The problems that Ingrid relates in her message
| suggests to me someone is not paying attention to their
| micro environment that aquarium establishes and is
| really a good example of poor animal husbandry. I have
| never been able to figure out her problem with UGFs,
| but she sure bad mouths them all the time. Of course,
| I have also come to the conclusion it is an escape goat
| for problems, blame it on the UGF and not the
| individual who is suppose to be managing the aquarium
| environment.
|
| In a Goldfish environment, I usually have an UGF with
| the addition of a small outside powerfilter. The
| portion of her message where she mentions rotting and
| anaerobic activity releasing toxic gases is a bunch of
| horse crap. Anybody who would allow their tank to get
| to that condition should not be allowed to have
| aquariums or fish.
|
| Most of the time when I have tanks setup with UGF's I
| use airstones in the risers.
|
| As I said before, UGF's and powerfilters are
| susceptible to the same problems, neglect, overfeeding
| and overcrowding.
|
| HTH
|
| Tom L.L.
| ---------------------------------------------
| ste© wrote:
| > I was going to get a syphon, but for now, we're just sticking with
buckets -
| > 11 or 12 bucket fulls! :-(
| >
| > Our tank is nice and clean from our 20-30% water changes (and a clean up
of
| > the glass and filter), and my girlfriend looks after all the chemical
levels
| > as we got a kit last year. Everything is fine in that department.
| >
| > They say 'if it ain't broken, don't fix it,' but I like to tinker with
| > things and perfect them, which is why I was looking into undergravel
| > filters. I will now steer clear of them.
| >
| > I will also look into getting some pebbles for the bottom of the tank
| > instead of gravel, as hopefully this will combine 'looking pretty' with
| > 'being safe for the fish.'
| >
| > Thanks,
| >
| > Ste
| >
| >
| > > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | get a big whisper filter that sits on the hangs on teh outside of the
| > tank.
| > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm
| > | in the care section is "hardware" and a section on cleaning gravel
with a
| > siphon aka
| > | python.
| > | "clean" is a function of nitrate levels. if you can keep nitrates at
or
| > under 20 ppm
| > | then water changes are done as required.
| > | right. if bits of crap come up from touching the gravel it is
already
| > packed with
| > | crap and it not only rots anaerobically releasing toxic gases, it is
| > preventing the
| > | gravel from functioning as a biofilter too.
| > | the GF root around in the gravel after food and will suction as they
do
| > it, suction
| > | pockets of toxic gases over their gills. gravel must be completely
| > cleaned at least
| > | every other week to prevent this kind of "channeling" of
water/nutrients
| > under the
| > | plate. soon the pH will start dropping, but first the nitrates are
going
| > to be high
| > | and uncontrollable. Ingrid
| > |
| > | "stemac©" > wrote:
| > | >One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the
| > fulval
| > | >filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel
filter
| > | >would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.
| > | >
| > | >As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's
in
| > the
| > | >tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater
| > hoovers
| > | >which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
| > | >something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without
taking it
| > | >out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and
| > cleaning
| > | >the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the
| > gravel,
| > | >bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.
| > |
| > |
| > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| > | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
| > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
| > | www.drsolo.com
| > | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
| > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| > | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
| > | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
| > | endorsements or recommendations I make.
| >
| >

[HTH]

If it is flint it may be OK in that flint is a type of quartz but
I would have to wonder how much weed and bug killer has been used
in the garden. Flint may have inclusions of non quartz minerals
which could have absorbed the harmful chemicals. You should do the
vinegar test. If you do not know for sure that it is flint take it
to a local rock shop and have them ID it. I would not risk it.

Deb is sending me some basic (I hope) info on flint and I will post
it when I get it.

Another thing to watch out for is dyed minerals. Many of the minerals
are being imported for various places around the world. The people who
export rocks find that less good looking ones can be dyed with aniline
dyes to make them sell better or for more money. I am not sure if the
dye is harmful or at what concentration. Again why risk it.



sophie wrote:

> In message >, HTH >
> writes
>
>> The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
>> http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
>> <quote>
>> For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to quartz.
>> It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are reasonably easy
>> to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank anything harmful
>> or liable to make your PH go places you don't want. They don't absorb
>> things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz, amethyst, citrine, agates...
>
>
>
> what about nice round flinty kind of things from an organic garden?
>
>
>> <snip>
>


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[ste©]

Thanks for that info Deb and for pointing out your website, some very useful
information there.

Thanks again,

Ste


"HTH" > wrote in message
...
| The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
| http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
| <quote>
| For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to quartz.
| It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are reasonably easy
| to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank anything harmful or
| liable to make your PH go places you don't want. They don't absorb
| things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz, amethyst, citrine, agates...
|
| Slates usually work well, but you have to be careful they haven't soaked
| up any chemicals or are harboring petrolium type compounds. Mica and
| selenite are sold as 'ice rock' and usually are ok depending on what
| sort of mica it is and how it was collected and where it came from.
|
| Most other rocks will directly interact with your tank and water
| chemistry. Be especially careful of dolomite, limestone, coral.... If
| you are in doubt, take your rock and try dripping some vinegar on it and
| see if it bubbles. If you get any reaction at all don't use it. Yes,
| those three are used in certain situations to either raise PH or
| hardness of the water, and will literally dissolve after awhile. I don't
| suggest you use them UNLESS you WANT those things to happen. Most of the
| time you don't.
|
| Quartz usually just needs a rinsing off and can be put directly into
| your tank. Slates, mica, and selenite should be pail soaked with a few
| water changes to make sure it's really clean.
|
| Warning...Halite can look really cool. It's salt. Plain ol' salt. You
| put it in the tank, it'll dissolve. A nice sized chunk will also kill
| your fish, from raising the salinity (salt content) of the water as it
| dissolves. Realgar and orphiment are mica-looking rocks that come in
| beautiful shades of yellow, orange, red, and sort of irridescent. These
| are highly poisonous. Sulfur looks pretty and is yellow. Also deadly.
| Most of the shiny metallics (fools gold, bornite or peacock ore, galena,
| hematite, copper, turquoise, malachite, azurite, etc) and copper bearing
| minerals, will leach into your water and cause big problems.
|
| Lava rock. Often called pumice. Porous or sharp glassy look. Either it
| has sharp edges and is hazardous to your fish as a cut/scrape hazard,
| and/or it can harbor lots of stuff and leach it into your water. Best to
| avoid.
|
| Deb
| The Rock Lady
| </quote>
| stemc © wrote:
|
| > I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there to
make
| > the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?
| >
| > Apart from the risks of having gravel in the tank, what is wrong with
| > undergravel filters for goldfish, if you don't mind me asking?
| >
| > Thanks,
| >
| > Ste
| >
| >
| > > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | no .. undergravel filters or gravel is not good for GF. easier is no
| > gravel at all.
| > |
| > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
| > | Ingrid
| > |
| > | "stemc ©" > wrote:
| > |
| > | >Hi there,
| > | >
| > | >I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and
| > running,
| > | >I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
| > | >
| > | >We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are
| > currently
| > | >using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more
| > than
| > | >enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that
undergravel
| > | >filters are better, is this true?
| > | >
| > | >Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job on
this
| > | >tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do
this?
| > | >I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as
though
| > | >there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to be
| > | >honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.
| > | >
| > | >I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are
available
| > in
| > | >the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that
would
| > be
| > | >great.
| > | >
| > | >Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.
| > | >
| > | >Ste
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| > | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
| > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
| > | www.drsolo.com
| > | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
| > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| > | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
| > | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
| > | endorsements or recommendations I make.
| >
| >
|
|
| -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
| http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
| -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[ste©]

Oops, I didn't realise where the quote started and ended! Thanks HTH for
that link, and thanks Deb for me! ;-)

Ste


"ste©" > wrote in message
...
| Thanks for that info Deb and for pointing out your website, some very
useful
| information there.
|
| Thanks again,
|
| Ste
|
|
| "HTH" > wrote in message
| ...
| | The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
| | http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
| | <quote>
| | For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to quartz.
| | It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are reasonably easy
| | to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank anything harmful or
| | liable to make your PH go places you don't want. They don't absorb
| | things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz, amethyst, citrine, agates...
| |
| | Slates usually work well, but you have to be careful they haven't soaked
| | up any chemicals or are harboring petrolium type compounds. Mica and
| | selenite are sold as 'ice rock' and usually are ok depending on what
| | sort of mica it is and how it was collected and where it came from.
| |
| | Most other rocks will directly interact with your tank and water
| | chemistry. Be especially careful of dolomite, limestone, coral.... If
| | you are in doubt, take your rock and try dripping some vinegar on it and
| | see if it bubbles. If you get any reaction at all don't use it. Yes,
| | those three are used in certain situations to either raise PH or
| | hardness of the water, and will literally dissolve after awhile. I don't
| | suggest you use them UNLESS you WANT those things to happen. Most of the
| | time you don't.
| |
| | Quartz usually just needs a rinsing off and can be put directly into
| | your tank. Slates, mica, and selenite should be pail soaked with a few
| | water changes to make sure it's really clean.
| |
| | Warning...Halite can look really cool. It's salt. Plain ol' salt. You
| | put it in the tank, it'll dissolve. A nice sized chunk will also kill
| | your fish, from raising the salinity (salt content) of the water as it
| | dissolves. Realgar and orphiment are mica-looking rocks that come in
| | beautiful shades of yellow, orange, red, and sort of irridescent. These
| | are highly poisonous. Sulfur looks pretty and is yellow. Also deadly.
| | Most of the shiny metallics (fools gold, bornite or peacock ore, galena,
| | hematite, copper, turquoise, malachite, azurite, etc) and copper bearing
| | minerals, will leach into your water and cause big problems.
| |
| | Lava rock. Often called pumice. Porous or sharp glassy look. Either it
| | has sharp edges and is hazardous to your fish as a cut/scrape hazard,
| | and/or it can harbor lots of stuff and leach it into your water. Best to
| | avoid.
| |
| | Deb
| | The Rock Lady
| | </quote>
| | stemc © wrote:
| |
| | > I've read about gravel not being good before, but what else is there
to
| make
| | > the bottom of the tank look a bit more pretty? Sand? What?
| | >
| | > Apart from the risks of having gravel in the tank, what is wrong with
| | > undergravel filters for goldfish, if you don't mind me asking?
| | >
| | > Thanks,
| | >
| | > Ste
| | >
| | >
| | > > wrote in message
| | > ...
| | > | no .. undergravel filters or gravel is not good for GF. easier is
no
| | > gravel at all.
| | > |
| | > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
| | > | Ingrid
| | > |
| | > | "stemc ©" > wrote:
| | > |
| | > | >Hi there,
| | > | >
| | > | >I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and
| | > running,
| | > | >I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
| | > | >
| | > | >We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are
| | > currently
| | > | >using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be
more
| | > than
| | > | >enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that
| undergravel
| | > | >filters are better, is this true?
| | > | >
| | > | >Basically, would an undergravel filter do a better filtration job
on
| this
| | > | >tank, and if so, what do I need (down to every last detail) to do
| this?
| | > | >I've had a quick look around in a local pet sore, but it seems as
| though
| | > | >there are so many things to choose from, and I'm a bit confused to
be
| | > | >honest, so hoped for some sound advice here.
| | > | >
| | > | >I'm based in the UK, so if anyone can suggest things that are
| available
| | > in
| | > | >the UK, or point me to any websites that sell specific items, that
| would
| | > be
| | > | >great.
| | > | >
| | > | >Thanks for any help, it's appreciated.
| | > | >
| | > | >Ste
| | > | >
| | > |
| | > |
| | > |
| | > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| | > | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
| | > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
| | > | www.drsolo.com
| | > | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
| | > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| | > | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
| | > | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
| | > | endorsements or recommendations I make.
| | >
| | >
| |
| |
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|
|

[sophie]

In message >, HTH >
writes
>If it is flint it may be OK in that flint is a type of quartz but
>I would have to wonder how much weed and bug killer has been used
>in the garden. Flint may have inclusions of non quartz minerals
>which could have absorbed the harmful chemicals. You should do the
>vinegar test. If you do not know for sure that it is flint take it
>to a local rock shop and have them ID it. I would not risk it.

I know flint!

as for chemicals, I don't use any - as I said, the garden's organic.
I've been here for six years now and while the lady who lived here
before me may have done so she left a lot of her garden supplies behind
and the most offensive thing I found was a soap-based bug-killer. Any of
the nice big round rocks that aren't flints that I want to use at any
point, I'll try your vinegar test on - a handy tip, thank you.
>
>Deb is sending me some basic (I hope) info on flint and I will post
>it when I get it.
>
>Another thing to watch out for is dyed minerals. Many of the minerals
>are being imported for various places around the world. The people who
>export rocks find that less good looking ones can be dyed with aniline
>dyes to make them sell better or for more money. I am not sure if the
>dye is harmful or at what concentration. Again why risk it.
>
>
>
>sophie wrote:
>
>> In message >, HTH
> writes
>>
>>> The following is from "Rocks, Gravel, and Bare Bottom Tanks"
>>> http://www.howardthehumble.com/aquatic/rocks.html
>>> <quote>
>>> For minerals in the tank, (this means rocks), try to stick to
>>>quartz. It's fairly hard, comes in a number of colors, and are
>>>reasonably easy to clean. The quartzes will NOT leach into your tank
>>>anything harmful or liable to make your PH go places you don't want.
>>>They don't absorb things either. Clear quartz, rose quartz,
>>>amethyst, citrine, agates...
>> what about nice round flinty kind of things from an organic
>>garden?
>>
>>> <snip>
>>
>
>
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--
sophie

[HTH]

HTH wrote:

<snip>
> Deb is sending me some basic (I hope) info on flint and I will post
> it when I get it.
<snip>
Deb the Rock Lady on Flint....

For fishtanks any of the quartz family should be ok, as long as
a) it passes the vinegar test. (drop a few drops of household
vinegar on it, and if it fizzes, don't use)
b) is not aniline dyed (it may leach dye into the water)

Most times to tell if something is aniline dyed, put a few into a
clear water glass, cover with water, rub and stir, and compare
in sunlight with a white card behind it like you do chemical testing
of water. If the rock has cracks and the cracks contain very dark
shades of the same color as the stone, it was probably dyed (the
stone cracked during the dye boil and took up the dye in
concentrated form in the bath).

Flint is considered in the chalcedony group of the quartzes,
which means it has an amorphous crystalline structure, not
a regular crystal lattice structure (jaspers and agates are
the majority of this family). Another term used than amorphous
is microcrystalline structure. Flint is usually whitish, to dull grey,
smoky brown to black, waxy luster. Flint often has a crust of
outer material that may be quartz, dolomite, agate, or a whole
host of other minerals. This is why the vinegar test is important.

The chalcedonies are 2.6 to 2.64 specific gravity, and approaching
7 on the moh's scale. Some members go as low as 5.5. Flint and
massive jaspers usually are 6.5 or higher, and inert enough to be
good aquarium material.



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[Tom L. La Bron]

Ste,

Your welcome.

As far as Ingrid and I are concerned, the answer is no,
some other gentleman has that honor, but pardon me
while I ROTFLMAO, of course, if she reads this she is
probably On the floor gagging.

UGF's at one time were state of the art. I can
remember when they first made their appearance on the
aquarium hobby in a big way. In fact, I still have
some of my original plates. I can remember the large
outside box filters using air that were the precursors
of the motorized power filters. I have one in storage
somewhere, it required a air pump the size of Silent
Giant to run it, another old time piece of apparatus
for the aquarium hobby that is long gone.

If you do a thorough cleaning you don't have to do the
whole tank bottom at once I used to do my in sectors,
disturbing only a section at each cleaning. One of the
main reasons for water changes is nitrates and these
can be kept at virtually zero if you let Philodendrons
grow out of your tanks, the roots dangling into the
tank water. The fish don't eat the roots or the stems
that may be in the water, although they will pick at
the roots, but are cleaning off the debris that catches
on the roots at time.

On the UGF's I have always used large bubble airstones
on the risers causing a good draw on the plate and
causing an upward draw on the water after leaving the
riser causing circulation in the tank and the airstones
give additional air to the tank. Two uses with one
action of the application of air to the tank.

Should you decide to get an outside power filter the
AquaClear 200 is good addition. The Fluval will
probably work great for you. I used a number of these
units when I was in Singapore on my 7 - 70 gallon tanks
that I had in my home at that time. I really liked
them, but since coming back to the states I just like
the outside box power filter.

Just remember that overstocking and overfeeding are the
biggest enemies of any filter system. Good luck.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
ste© wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> We have about 2-3 inches of gravel in our 20 gallon tank - when cleaning, it
> fills a bucket to the brim (about 12 litres a bucket), therefore, we would
> be okay in your first point about UGF's.
>
> You and Ingrid seem to like each other a lot, are you both married by any
> chance? ;-)
>
> I'm going to stick with my Fluval 4 Plus filter for now, but I'll keep these
> threads in mind if we decide to change. Before I posted, I thought that
> UGF's were the norm and that I was using an unusual setup, but I guess ours
> is okay for now.
>
> Thanks again Tom,
>
> Ste
>
>
>
>
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Ste,
> |
> | Undergravel filters are just fine. The big thing that
> | is usually not done properly is that an UGF should have
> | 1 1/2 inch to 2 inches of gravel over the filter plate.
> | Most people put to little gravel which is one of the
> | problems. I have had UGF's running in tanks for long
> | periods of time. The longest time is 14 years. UGF's
> | are susceptible to the same problems any other filter
> | is susceptible to which are over crowding, overfeeding
> | and neglect.
> |
> | The problems that Ingrid relates in her message
> | suggests to me someone is not paying attention to their
> | micro environment that aquarium establishes and is
> | really a good example of poor animal husbandry. I have
> | never been able to figure out her problem with UGFs,
> | but she sure bad mouths them all the time. Of course,
> | I have also come to the conclusion it is an escape goat
> | for problems, blame it on the UGF and not the
> | individual who is suppose to be managing the aquarium
> | environment.
> |
> | In a Goldfish environment, I usually have an UGF with
> | the addition of a small outside powerfilter. The
> | portion of her message where she mentions rotting and
> | anaerobic activity releasing toxic gases is a bunch of
> | horse crap. Anybody who would allow their tank to get
> | to that condition should not be allowed to have
> | aquariums or fish.
> |
> | Most of the time when I have tanks setup with UGF's I
> | use airstones in the risers.
> |
> | As I said before, UGF's and powerfilters are
> | susceptible to the same problems, neglect, overfeeding
> | and overcrowding.
> |
> | HTH
> |
> | Tom L.L.
> | ---------------------------------------------
> | ste© wrote:
> | > I was going to get a syphon, but for now, we're just sticking with
> buckets -
> | > 11 or 12 bucket fulls! :-(
> | >
> | > Our tank is nice and clean from our 20-30% water changes (and a clean up
> of
> | > the glass and filter), and my girlfriend looks after all the chemical
> levels
> | > as we got a kit last year. Everything is fine in that department.
> | >
> | > They say 'if it ain't broken, don't fix it,' but I like to tinker with
> | > things and perfect them, which is why I was looking into undergravel
> | > filters. I will now steer clear of them.
> | >
> | > I will also look into getting some pebbles for the bottom of the tank
> | > instead of gravel, as hopefully this will combine 'looking pretty' with
> | > 'being safe for the fish.'
> | >
> | > Thanks,
> | >
> | > Ste
> | >
> | >
> | > > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > | get a big whisper filter that sits on the hangs on teh outside of the
> | > tank.
> | > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm
> | > | in the care section is "hardware" and a section on cleaning gravel
> with a
> | > siphon aka
> | > | python.
> | > | "clean" is a function of nitrate levels. if you can keep nitrates at
> or
> | > under 20 ppm
> | > | then water changes are done as required.
> | > | right. if bits of crap come up from touching the gravel it is
> already
> | > packed with
> | > | crap and it not only rots anaerobically releasing toxic gases, it is
> | > preventing the
> | > | gravel from functioning as a biofilter too.
> | > | the GF root around in the gravel after food and will suction as they
> do
> | > it, suction
> | > | pockets of toxic gases over their gills. gravel must be completely
> | > cleaned at least
> | > | every other week to prevent this kind of "channeling" of
> water/nutrients
> | > under the
> | > | plate. soon the pH will start dropping, but first the nitrates are
> going
> | > to be high
> | > | and uncontrollable. Ingrid
> | > |
> | > | "stemac©" > wrote:
> | > | >One of the benefits were were hoping for is that we wouldn't need the
> | > fulval
> | > | >filter stuck to the inside of the tank, and that the undergravel
> filter
> | > | >would clean the dirt in the gravel a bit better.
> | > | >
> | > | >As a second question then, what's the best way to clean gravel that's
> in
> | > the
> | > | >tank? We've seen 'gravel cleaners' that are like little underwater
> | > hoovers
> | > | >which run from an air pump - are they any good at all? Or is there
> | > | >something better than this to clean gravel in the tank (without
> taking it
> | > | >out)? The tank is pretty clean from our 20-30% water changes and
> | > cleaning
> | > | >the inside of the glass, but if we touch or stir up the water by the
> | > gravel,
> | > | >bits of dirt come out of the gravel, so we've got to be careful.
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | > | List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> | > | http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> | > | www.drsolo.com
> | > | Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> | > | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | > | Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> | > | compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> | > | endorsements or recommendations I make.
> | >
> | >
>
>

[sophie]

In message >, Tom L. La Bron
> writes

<snip>

> One of the main reasons for water changes is nitrates and these can be
>kept at virtually zero if you let Philodendrons grow out of your tanks,
>the roots dangling into the tank water. The fish don't eat the roots or
>the stems that may be in the water, although they will pick at the
>roots, but are cleaning off the debris that catches on the roots at
>time.

Is this common practice? I know that philodendron are toxic to mammals -
are they ok for fish?

--
sophie

[Tom L. La Bron]

Sophie,

I have been using this technique for about 30 years. I
don't keep cats, and I have never seen a dog eat any
philodendrons, so I don't worry about dogs. Why cats
seem to have this thing for philodendrons, I don't
know, but since I don't have any cats I have used
phillys for years. I also know that guppies and clown
loaches don't bother them either so I have them in
those tanks also.

It works.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------


sophie wrote:
> In message >, Tom L. La Bron
> > writes
>
> <snip>
>
>> One of the main reasons for water changes is nitrates and these can be
>> kept at virtually zero if you let Philodendrons grow out of your
>> tanks, the roots dangling into the tank water. The fish don't eat the
>> roots or the stems that may be in the water, although they will pick
>> at the roots, but are cleaning off the debris that catches on the
>> roots at time.
>
>
> Is this common practice? I know that philodendron are toxic to mammals -
> are they ok for fish?
>

[HTH]

If you do use a UGF be careful. The lift tubes need to be far enough
away from the tank wall to keep the goldfish from getting stuck between
the tube and the tank wall. It can be deadly if the fish is unable to
open its gill covers. This is somewhat rare but it does happen.


I used to make my own UGF plates with the lift tubes centered front to
back and 1/4 a tank width in from the ends.** Use eggcrate lite defuser
grid covered with non metallic window screen. You should be able to
find the transparent riser tubes at a good LFS. You can wedge or
silicone the riser tubes into the eggcrate prior to putting on the
window screen. The riser tube placement creates a good flow through
the plate. You need some sort of spacers to hold the grid/plate off the
bottom of the tank. I cut slices off a 2" PVC pipe and the cut each
slice to form a half circle. If you do not use half circles the filter
will have a dead spot under the support. If you make the space under the
plate at least an inch high you should be able to snake a tube down a
riser to clean the crud from under the plate.

Reverse flow UGF's are more suited to goldfish. Water is first filtered
via a sponge or canister filter. The mechanicaly clean water is then
feed under the UGF plate and gravel which is used as a biological only
filter. You still have to clean the gravel but not as often. Cleaning
helps keep the gravel from packing down and removes any crud which may
build up in the gravel. I like to use enough upflow through the gravel
to keep the crud from settling on or getting into the gravel. This helps
more of the fish waste to make its way to the mechanical filter.

If you do not have your tank in an airconditioned room you may want to
use canister filters to prefilter the water for RFUGF's. A pair of
powerheads large enough to do a good job of creating an upward flow
throgh the plate can generate enough heat to be a problem in the summer.

When I want to use gravel I either use a thin layer that is easily
cleaned. I do not use standard UGF's anymore. For me it is a lot faster
to clean a filter plate or a sponge. mostly use bare bottom tanks
because they are easy/quick to maintain.

Howard

** The two lift tube setup only works for tanks up to 29 gallons.
For longer tanks use 3 or more evenly spaced lift tubes.

stemc © wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I've not posted for a while due to moving house, but now I'm up and running,
> I thought I'd pop back in for some advice! ;-)
>
> We've got a Fluval Uno 800 tank (21 gallons / 96 litres), and are currently
> using a Fluval 4 Plus under-water filter. This filter should be more than
> enough for a tank this size, but I've got the impression that undergravel
> filters are better, is this true?
>
<snip>
>
>


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