what to look for in new tank?

[sophie]

I hope the crosspost is ok; it seems more efficient than posting an
identical article twice.

Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 48 * 18 * 18 tank - it's very cheap
(£20, which is around $36, and a fair bit less than half price in the
shops). I think it's new - the guy selling it is a _serious_ fish
hobbyist, makes his own tanks and has taken voluntary redundancy to
start his own aquatics business - he says he's selling to clear out
space in his unit (and has lots of other "bits", too...) He seems like a
very genuine, friendly kind of bloke - he says he can give me a lift
back with the tank in his van, which is astonishingly generous (he must
_really_ need that space...).
What I need to know is, as he isn't an established business and as it's
the kind of rock-bottom price that probably comes with very few
guarantees, how can I spot a duff tank? I know too make sure all the
corners are flat to whatever surface they stand on, but would any faults
in the sealant be obvious? Should I look for anything else? - once I get
it home and fill it up with water it could well be too late. The kitchen
ceiling will not withstand 67 gallons of water coming through it!

Any suggestions will be gratefully received!

many thanks,
--
sophie

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>
> I hope the crosspost is ok; it seems more efficient than posting an
> identical article twice.
>
> Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 48 * 18 * 18 tank - it's very cheap
> (£20, which is around $36, and a fair bit less than half price in the
> shops). I think it's new - the guy selling it is a _serious_ fish
> hobbyist, makes his own tanks and has taken voluntary redundancy to
> start his own aquatics business - he says he's selling to clear out
> space in his unit (and has lots of other "bits", too...) He seems like
a
> very genuine, friendly kind of bloke - he says he can give me a lift
> back with the tank in his van, which is astonishingly generous (he must
> _really_ need that space...).
> What I need to know is, as he isn't an established business and as it's
> the kind of rock-bottom price that probably comes with very few
> guarantees, how can I spot a duff tank? I know too make sure all the
> corners are flat to whatever surface they stand on, but would any
faults
> in the sealant be obvious? Should I look for anything else? - once I
get
> it home and fill it up with water it could well be too late. The
kitchen
> ceiling will not withstand 67 gallons of water coming through it!
>
> Any suggestions will be gratefully received!
>
> many thanks,
> --
> sophie

I would check the thickness of the glass used.
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/glass-thickness.html has some
reference info on recommended glass thickness (48x18 = 120cm x 46cm =
10mm sides and 12mm base). Mine own 67g uses 9mm (or about 3/8").

Check for air bubbles in the silicone (a few small ones are ok). Check
for silicone imbrittlement (should be pliable and not hard like plastic).

Cosmetically, you can check for scratches. I'm not too keen on buying
home-made tanks, due to the expertise required (surface preparation and
the jigs), but maybe he knew what he was doing.

Do try to get a canopy and whatever bits he is willing to include. Even
gravel gets pricey in the LFS.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Cris]

Oh, I wouldn't fill it for the first time in the house! Fill it
outside somewhere and leave it to sit for a day or two. While it's
full, check for any bowing of the glass, plus all the stuff Netmax
suggested. Newer tanks have a center brace in the middle of the top
frame to support the front and back glass. The front and side panes
should be attached on top of the bottom pane rather than around the
outside.

If he seems to know what he's doing, and has made several of his own
tanks, it's most likely going to be ok. But I wouldn't fill any tank
for the first time in the house.

Cris


On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:09:34 +0100, sophie
> wrote:

>
>I hope the crosspost is ok; it seems more efficient than posting an
>identical article twice.
>
>Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 48 * 18 * 18 tank - it's very cheap
>(£20, which is around $36, and a fair bit less than half price in the
>shops). I think it's new - the guy selling it is a _serious_ fish
>hobbyist, makes his own tanks and has taken voluntary redundancy to
>start his own aquatics business - he says he's selling to clear out
>space in his unit (and has lots of other "bits", too...) He seems like a
>very genuine, friendly kind of bloke - he says he can give me a lift
>back with the tank in his van, which is astonishingly generous (he must
>_really_ need that space...).
>What I need to know is, as he isn't an established business and as it's
>the kind of rock-bottom price that probably comes with very few
>guarantees, how can I spot a duff tank? I know too make sure all the
>corners are flat to whatever surface they stand on, but would any faults
>in the sealant be obvious? Should I look for anything else? - once I get
>it home and fill it up with water it could well be too late. The kitchen
>ceiling will not withstand 67 gallons of water coming through it!
>
>Any suggestions will be gratefully received!
>
>many thanks,

[sophie]

In message >, sophie
> writes

<snip>

Many thanks to NetMax and Cris - fantastic advice and I shall follow it
(why on earth didn't I think of filling the tank in the garden first? -
sheer brilliance, thank you.)

I'm not sure what the seller was doing prior to starting on his own
aquatics business; I get the impression he was in the trade. I'll find
out more when I see him. I'm really hoping this is a good tank; I have
far too many fish in a small one at the moment (my LFS, frankly, lied to
me about how many goldfish I could keep in a 13 gallon and failed to
tell me they might eat minnows. I'm hoping that they don't get big
enough to do so during the minnows' natural life-span) and I need more
space! I've never kept fish before this and I want to give them a good
home.
--
sophie

[NetMax]

"Cris" > wrote in message
s.com...
<snip>
> The front and side panes
> should be attached on top of the bottom pane rather than around the
> outside.

why? Both methods are conventional construction techniques in use on
1000s of aquariums.

> If he seems to know what he's doing, and has made several of his own
> tanks, it's most likely going to be ok. But I wouldn't fill any tank
> for the first time in the house.

If filling the tank elsewhere (lawn, driveway, garage) make sure that you
have a very flat strong surface. With 600 lbs of water, the tank will
shift to close any gaps, and may cause damage & leakage which would
otherwise not occur.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Cris
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:09:34 +0100, sophie
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >I hope the crosspost is ok; it seems more efficient than posting an
> >identical article twice.
> >
> >Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 48 * 18 * 18 tank - it's very cheap
> >(£20, which is around $36, and a fair bit less than half price in the
> >shops). I think it's new - the guy selling it is a _serious_ fish
> >hobbyist, makes his own tanks and has taken voluntary redundancy to
> >start his own aquatics business - he says he's selling to clear out
> >space in his unit (and has lots of other "bits", too...) He seems like
a
> >very genuine, friendly kind of bloke - he says he can give me a lift
> >back with the tank in his van, which is astonishingly generous (he
must
> >_really_ need that space...).
> >What I need to know is, as he isn't an established business and as
it's
> >the kind of rock-bottom price that probably comes with very few
> >guarantees, how can I spot a duff tank? I know too make sure all the
> >corners are flat to whatever surface they stand on, but would any
faults
> >in the sealant be obvious? Should I look for anything else? - once I
get
> >it home and fill it up with water it could well be too late. The
kitchen
> >ceiling will not withstand 67 gallons of water coming through it!
> >
> >Any suggestions will be gratefully received!
> >
> >many thanks,
>

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes
>"Cris" > wrote in message
s.com...
><snip>
>> The front and side panes
>> should be attached on top of the bottom pane rather than around the
>> outside.
>
>why? Both methods are conventional construction techniques in use on
>1000s of aquariums.
>
>> If he seems to know what he's doing, and has made several of his own
>> tanks, it's most likely going to be ok. But I wouldn't fill any tank
>> for the first time in the house.
>
>If filling the tank elsewhere (lawn, driveway, garage) make sure that you
>have a very flat strong surface. With 600 lbs of water, the tank will
>shift to close any gaps, and may cause damage & leakage which would
>otherwise not occur.

and here is the problem I'm currently trying to address! I bought the
tank (it wasn't new or home made and had previously been used for
keeping chiclids, but it was being sold to make room for the tanks he
and stuff he now needs, I hadn't quite understood); the silicone seems
to be in good condition (squidgy), the glass is two thinner sheets
laminated together per side totalling 9mm for the verticals and 11mm for
the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with water in
the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat floor.
Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the right
place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need to
cycle it before I put the fish in (although I was wondering about
transferring the filter sponge to the new filter and hoping that worked,
but I really don't think I'll risk it), so that should give me a chance
to see if it springs any leaks. The seller is obviously a fish obsessive
(in a good way) and assured me it was fine.
Now I just need to be reassured that if it does leak, it will do so
slowly and in one place rather than exploding... And also I need to do
research into h.o.t. filters for this size tank... And also I need to
work out if I am in fact certifiably insane to want to keep goldfish
with a sand substrate and some plants (I have some that they don't eat)
and some weather loach... And also I need to work out if I want a
cabinet thing to go underneath or a metal stand... And also I need to be
very patient with my very small son as he demands every day for the next
few weeks if we can put all the fish in the new tank yet.

wish me luck.

thank you again for your advice.
--
sophie

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, NetMax
> > writes
> >"Cris" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> ><snip>
> >> The front and side panes
> >> should be attached on top of the bottom pane rather than around the
> >> outside.
> >
> >why? Both methods are conventional construction techniques in use on
> >1000s of aquariums.
> >
> >> If he seems to know what he's doing, and has made several of his own
> >> tanks, it's most likely going to be ok. But I wouldn't fill any
tank
> >> for the first time in the house.
> >
> >If filling the tank elsewhere (lawn, driveway, garage) make sure that
you
> >have a very flat strong surface. With 600 lbs of water, the tank will
> >shift to close any gaps, and may cause damage & leakage which would
> >otherwise not occur.
>
> and here is the problem I'm currently trying to address! I bought the
> tank (it wasn't new or home made and had previously been used for
> keeping chiclids, but it was being sold to make room for the tanks he
> and stuff he now needs, I hadn't quite understood); the silicone seems
> to be in good condition (squidgy), the glass is two thinner sheets
> laminated together per side totalling 9mm for the verticals and 11mm
for

I've never encounter a production-built aquarium which used 2 thinner
sheets of glass.

> the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with water in
> the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat floor.
> Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the right
> place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need to

On a slightly uneven floor, put the tank on a sheet of 3/4" plywood which
is on top of a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam.

> cycle it before I put the fish in (although I was wondering about
> transferring the filter sponge to the new filter and hoping that
worked,

This is how I cycle tanks all the time. Cycling is really only a
nuisance with the first tank in your house. After that it's just moving
filters around, don't overstock and under-feed for a few weeks.

> but I really don't think I'll risk it), so that should give me a chance
> to see if it springs any leaks. The seller is obviously a fish
obsessive
> (in a good way) and assured me it was fine.
> Now I just need to be reassured that if it does leak, it will do so
> slowly and in one place rather than exploding... And also I need to do
> research into h.o.t. filters for this size tank... And also I need to

I have a custom glass top design for this tank which adapts to a variety
of filters.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/glasscover/glasscover.shtml

> work out if I am in fact certifiably insane to want to keep goldfish
> with a sand substrate and some plants (I have some that they don't eat)

Yes, I think this is a certifiable offence in some states, but we won't
tell anyone ;~)

> and some weather loach... And also I need to work out if I want a
> cabinet thing to go underneath or a metal stand... And also I need to
be

If you haven't already gone pricing, you will find that the cabinet might
be your most expensive component. Steel stands are stronger, but kids
can climb them so they should be fastened to the wall joist to prevent
sway (depends on your child's age). Wood cabinets have the advantage of
being able to hide a canister filter (so the tank can almost go right up
against the wall) and it keeps your fish-stuff close but hidden
(child-proofing the cabinet door can be important with 'helpful' children
;~).

> very patient with my very small son as he demands every day for the
next
> few weeks if we can put all the fish in the new tank yet.

I'm on his side "let's do it mom". With your aged filter, you should be
able to proceed quite quickly.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> wish me luck.
>
> thank you again for your advice.
> --
> sophie

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes


<snipping>

>> >If filling the tank elsewhere (lawn, driveway, garage) make sure that
>you
>> >have a very flat strong surface. With 600 lbs of water, the tank will
>> >shift to close any gaps, and may cause damage & leakage which would
>> >otherwise not occur.
>>
>> and here is the problem I'm currently trying to address! I bought the
>> tank (it wasn't new or home made and had previously been used for
>> keeping chiclids, but it was being sold to make room for the tanks he
>> and stuff he now needs, I hadn't quite understood); the silicone seems
>> to be in good condition (squidgy), the glass is two thinner sheets
>> laminated together per side totalling 9mm for the verticals and 11mm
>for
>
>I've never encounter a production-built aquarium which used 2 thinner
>sheets of glass.

I don't know if this is a brit thing, but the small tank I have now, and
all the tanks in the LFS where I bought it - which are non-fancy and
non-branded - are laminated. Whether this means that they're
"home-made", I don't know. I do know that it's not at all uncommon round
here; I have friends with aquariums and the only one I've inspected
closely enough to remember was made of double layers of glass. I'd
understood this was for strength, although I also seem to remember
reading that laminated glass is stronger under "short burst" load than
normal glass but can behave as sliding layers under prolonged load,
(though given the directions of force in a filled aquarium I'm not sure
if that would apply). But as I've never built or tested anything made of
glass (except jewellery) in my life, it's hearsay, not fact.
>
>> the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with water in
>> the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat floor.
>> Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the right
>> place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need to
>
>On a slightly uneven floor, put the tank on a sheet of 3/4" plywood which
>is on top of a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam.

I'd understood this, (and even the reason for it!) but I'm not sure that
the floor counts as "slightly" uneven, the tank is a cm off the floor at
one end (and it is the floor that's wonky, not the tank, I checked).
>
>> cycle it before I put the fish in (although I was wondering about
>> transferring the filter sponge to the new filter and hoping that
>worked,
>
>This is how I cycle tanks all the time. Cycling is really only a
>nuisance with the first tank in your house. After that it's just moving
>filters around, don't overstock and under-feed for a few weeks.

the thing that was worrying me is that I think the gravel in the little
tank must be housing a lot of the bacteria, and if I go for the
(admittedly bonkers) sand idea, I won't be transferring the gravel. In
fact I don't think I'll be transferring the gravel anyway, as the
goldfish keep sucking it up and spitting it out, and I'm a bit worried
that one day a piece will get stuck. I'll have to fish the MTS out, too,
if I can find them. The big stones and the bogwood should carry a few
good bacteria, though? And while my current bioload is gigantic in the
small tank, it should be fine in the big one.

<snick>
>
>I have a custom glass top design for this tank which adapts to a variety
>of filters.
>http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/glasscover/glasscover.shtml

I'd kind of decided to buy a glass cover rather than a hood from the
LFS; I like being able to see the fish from the top. (I was wondering
about making a wooden "frame" for the top of the tank to cover all the
edges of the glass). And contrary to everything I hear, the plants seem
fine without lights. Not fast-growing, I concede, but healthy looking
(and uneaten!) The tank is in a nice position with nice bright (but
fairly diffuse) light and a little direct sunlight at specific times of
the day (never midday, and the whole tank is never lit at the same
time).
>
>> work out if I am in fact certifiably insane to want to keep goldfish
>> with a sand substrate and some plants (I have some that they don't eat)
>
>Yes, I think this is a certifiable offence in some states, but we won't
>tell anyone ;~)

having plants goldies don't eat? ;-) but if I don't try, I'll never
know. and I don't _think_ it can hurt the fish; though it may eventually
prove annoying to me.


>
>> and some weather loach... And also I need to work out if I want a
>> cabinet thing to go underneath or a metal stand... And also I need to
>be
>
>If you haven't already gone pricing, you will find that the cabinet might
>be your most expensive component.

probably. if the stand is stronger, I'll go for that. they just don't
_look_ as sturdy! He's small but pretty bright and won't climb it - and
the test kits and food are out of his reach. he really adores holding
bits of food tight between his fingers and putting his hand underwater,
and this is a treat for when he is good. messing with the fish without
mum gets this revoked indefinitely. (he also likes hunting for tiny
white worms in the compost for fish treats, but that's another story).
I'd put a "curtain" down the front of the stand, to, so the visual
climbing cue would be absent for his friends.

<moresnip>
>>.
>
>I'm on his side "let's do it mom". With your aged filter, you should be
>able to proceed quite quickly.

but first I have to buy a filter, lid and stand. not to mention all that
sand and a few more plants. Filters for this size tank aren't cheap (I
think I might fancy an eheim aquaball, if I can get one. I like my
current little fluval a lot, but I've read some really mixed reviews of
the bigger ones.) and the stands won't be cheap either, and I suspect I
won't be able to do that all in one go. the planning is half the fun,
anyway.

thanks for your time, NetMax; I really do appreciate it. I know I can be
longwinded at times, and I also know I got off to a very bad start
keeping fish, so the advice is so reassuring. I'm actually quite
surprised at how committed I can feel myself becoming about the whole
experience - if I'd been told before I bought the little tank that five
or six months later I'd own a four foot tank I think I would have backed
out in fright! but it strikes me now that a bigger tank is actually a
much more stable environment and therefore much easier to maintain, and
to keep healthy fish in.

--
sophie

[Donald K]

sophie wrote:

> the thing that was worrying me is that I think the gravel in the
> little tank must be housing a lot of the bacteria, and if I go for the
> (admittedly bonkers) sand idea, I won't be transferring the gravel. In
> fact I don't think I'll be transferring the gravel anyway, as the
> goldfish keep sucking it up and spitting it out, and I'm a bit worried
> that one day a piece will get stuck

Take some gravel, put it in a little bag/pouch make of cheese cloth or a
nylon stocking. That way the buggies can hitch a ride to the new tank,
but you don't need to worry about cleaning up the gravel later...

My $0.02.

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, NetMax
> > writes

I just made the Arrowana connection to the other post :o)

> <snipping>
> >
> >I've never encountered a production-built aquarium which used 2
thinner
> >sheets of glass.
>
> I don't know if this is a brit thing, but the small tank I have now,
and
> all the tanks in the LFS where I bought it - which are non-fancy and
> non-branded - are laminated. Whether this means that they're
> "home-made", I don't know. I do know that it's not at all uncommon
round
> here; I have friends with aquariums and the only one I've inspected
> closely enough to remember was made of double layers of glass. I'd
> understood this was for strength, although I also seem to remember
> reading that laminated glass is stronger under "short burst" load than
> normal glass but can behave as sliding layers under prolonged load,
> (though given the directions of force in a filled aquarium I'm not sure
> if that would apply). But as I've never built or tested anything made
of
> glass (except jewellery) in my life, it's hearsay, not fact.

It all makes sense, I just have no experience with it. I suppose the
panes are sealed along the edge so you don't have humidity leaving dust
behind. I'd imagine that there might be more refraction with 2 panes.
It's an interesting method to be sure, especially for overcoming the
expense and lack of availability of the thicker sheets of glass needed
for big tank. The jigging is more elaborate but your material costs are
lower (thinking out loud).

> >> the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with water
in
> >> the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat floor.
> >> Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the right
> >> place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need to
> >
> >On a slightly uneven floor, put the tank on a sheet of 3/4" plywood
which
> >is on top of a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam.
>
> I'd understood this, (and even the reason for it!) but I'm not sure
that
> the floor counts as "slightly" uneven, the tank is a cm off the floor
at
> one end (and it is the floor that's wonky, not the tank, I checked).

One cm would be more than the styrofoam could absorb. Alternately set
your plywood on four bricks (one per corner). It does not need to be
level, only flat. You could shim 1 corner if you needed to raise it 1cm.
You could also place the plywood on a level spot on the lawn (grass). I
must be more daring than most, as I just set it into a normal stand and
fill it with very warm water.

> >> cycle it before I put the fish in (although I was wondering about
> >> transferring the filter sponge to the new filter and hoping that
> >worked,
> >
> >This is how I cycle tanks all the time. Cycling is really only a
> >nuisance with the first tank in your house. After that it's just
moving
> >filters around, don't overstock and under-feed for a few weeks.
>
> the thing that was worrying me is that I think the gravel in the little
> tank must be housing a lot of the bacteria, and if I go for the
> (admittedly bonkers) sand idea, I won't be transferring the gravel. In
> fact I don't think I'll be transferring the gravel anyway, as the
> goldfish keep sucking it up and spitting it out, and I'm a bit worried
> that one day a piece will get stuck. I'll have to fish the MTS out,
too,
> if I can find them. The big stones and the bogwood should carry a few
> good bacteria, though? And while my current bioload is gigantic in the
> small tank, it should be fine in the big one.

With an established UGF, then the gravel has a lot of good bacteria.
With any other type of filter, the gravel has more of the anaerobic
bacteria (decay of organic matter) which reproduces much faster than the
nitrifying bacteria you need. With moves, I do keep some of the old
gravel (filter bag in the filter, or old nylon as Donald suggested), but
I wonder how neccesary it is. I read this bacteria doubles every 20
minutes, so it should not be critical to have (but I question lots of
things ;~)

> <snick>
> >
> >I have a custom glass top design for this tank which adapts to a
variety
> >of filters.
> >http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/glasscover/glasscover.shtml
>
> I'd kind of decided to buy a glass cover rather than a hood from the
> LFS; I like being able to see the fish from the top. (I was wondering
> about making a wooden "frame" for the top of the tank to cover all the
> edges of the glass). And contrary to everything I hear, the plants seem
> fine without lights. Not fast-growing, I concede, but healthy looking
> (and uneaten!) The tank is in a nice position with nice bright (but
> fairly diffuse) light and a little direct sunlight at specific times of
> the day (never midday, and the whole tank is never lit at the same
> time).

When you find something working for you, go for it. If normally sealed,
I find that the condensation on the glass cover underside typically
interferes with your ability to watch the fish from above. This will of
course vary according to the temperature difference in your home and how
sealed the cover is.

> >
> >> work out if I am in fact certifiably insane to want to keep goldfish
> >> with a sand substrate and some plants (I have some that they don't
eat)
> >
> >Yes, I think this is a certifiable offence in some states, but we
won't
> >tell anyone ;~)
>
> having plants goldies don't eat? ;-) but if I don't try, I'll never
> know. and I don't _think_ it can hurt the fish; though it may
eventually
> prove annoying to me.

I don't think it will hurt the fish either. I have customers come in for
aquatic plants to feed their Goldfish. I usually send them off with less
expensive ideas (zuchinni, brussel sprouts, pealed peas, oranges,
blanched lettuce etc), or I sell them Amazon swords, Anubius or Onion
plants (which have a better chance of survival). I keep planted African
cichlid tanks, so I'm certainly not a conformist myself ;~).
Experimenting is how you learn stuff :o)

> >
> >> and some weather loach... And also I need to work out if I want a
> >> cabinet thing to go underneath or a metal stand... And also I need
to
> >be
> >
> >If you haven't already gone pricing, you will find that the cabinet
might
> >be your most expensive component.
>
> probably. if the stand is stronger, I'll go for that. they just don't
> _look_ as sturdy! He's small but pretty bright and won't climb it - and
> the test kits and food are out of his reach. he really adores holding
> bits of food tight between his fingers and putting his hand underwater,
> and this is a treat for when he is good. messing with the fish without
> mum gets this revoked indefinitely. (he also likes hunting for tiny
> white worms in the compost for fish treats, but that's another story).
> I'd put a "curtain" down the front of the stand, to, so the visual
> climbing cue would be absent for his friends.
>
> <moresnip>
> >>.
> >
> >I'm on his side "let's do it mom". With your aged filter, you should
be
> >able to proceed quite quickly.
>
> but first I have to buy a filter, lid and stand. not to mention all
that
> sand and a few more plants. Filters for this size tank aren't cheap (I
> think I might fancy an eheim aquaball, if I can get one. I like my
> current little fluval a lot, but I've read some really mixed reviews of
> the bigger ones.) and the stands won't be cheap either, and I suspect I
> won't be able to do that all in one go. the planning is half the fun,
> anyway.

I'm very happy with the current production series of Fluvals 104 to 404
and have about a dozen running in the shop. At home for that size of
tanks, I have a 304 and a 2213 (not on the same tank). I prefer the 304,
as the 2213 is a little dated. I've no experience with Aquaball filters.
Internal canisters have their idiocincricies, which you already know
about with your internal Fluval. For Goldfish though, overfilter! I
would have thought that the AC300 powerfilter would be less expensive
than all the choices we discussed. For sand, you should not have to pay
much. The lid can be home made. Skip the polo lights as indicated.
That leaves the stand & filter. Your aquarium seller can't set you up
with a filter?

> thanks for your time, NetMax; I really do appreciate it. I know I can
be
> longwinded at times, and I also know I got off to a very bad start
> keeping fish, so the advice is so reassuring. I'm actually quite
> surprised at how committed I can feel myself becoming about the whole
> experience - if I'd been told before I bought the little tank that five
> or six months later I'd own a four foot tank I think I would have
backed
> out in fright! but it strikes me now that a bigger tank is actually a
> much more stable environment and therefore much easier to maintain, and
> to keep healthy fish in.

Very welcome, glad to help. Yes, larger tanks are more self-maintaining,
and 48x18x18 is a very nice size (though I'm biased). It's not so big
that it takes 3 people to carry it or require floor reinforcements, but
it is big enough to do alot of things with it.

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> sophie

[Donald K]

NetMax wrote:

> I read this bacteria doubles every 20
> minutes, so it should not be critical to have (but I question lots of
> things ;~)

Ah, the bacteria grow at some rather quick rate in places they have
already colonized. (i.e. there is already a population of bacteria
there).

Example: If you have two filter cartridges and you remove one and
replace it with a clean one.

Are both filter cartridges fully populated the next day? No...

The population on the first one has doubled and there are probably trace
colonies on the second one.

I haven't done the census to back this up, but it sounds REALLY
reasonable...

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes


<snick>

>
>> >> the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with water
>in
>> >> the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat floor.
>> >> Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the right
>> >> place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need to
>> >
>> >On a slightly uneven floor, put the tank on a sheet of 3/4" plywood
>which
>> >is on top of a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam.
>>
>> I'd understood this, (and even the reason for it!) but I'm not sure
>that
>> the floor counts as "slightly" uneven, the tank is a cm off the floor
>at
>> one end (and it is the floor that's wonky, not the tank, I checked).
>
>One cm would be more than the styrofoam could absorb. Alternately set
>your plywood on four bricks (one per corner). It does not need to be
>level, only flat. You could shim 1 corner if you needed to raise it 1cm.
>You could also place the plywood on a level spot on the lawn (grass). I
>must be more daring than most, as I just set it into a normal stand and
>fill it with very warm water.

warm? is this something to do with testing the silicone? and I thinkg I
tend to agree with you that putting it on a stand would be easier! when
you say the tank doesn't have to be level, only flat, do you mean for
testing purposes or generally? wouldn't an un-level tank put undue
pressure on the lowest wall, or is it that because the pressure from the
water is outwards in all directions the added weight on the lower wall
isn't an issue? (one of the things that I find unnerving about metal
stands is the fact that they only support the edges of the tank...)
>

<snip useful info about bacteria, also other stuff, thank you>

> I have customers come in for
>aquatic plants to feed their Goldfish. I usually send them off with less
>expensive ideas (zuchinni, brussel sprouts, pealed peas, oranges,
>blanched lettuce etc),

mine won't eat lettuce, but they go nuts for blanched skinned peas. only
one of them likes the mini-worms, but the minnows guzzle those in a
slightly sinister way.

> or I sell them Amazon swords, Anubius or Onion
>plants (which have a better chance of survival). I keep planted African
>cichlid tanks, so I'm certainly not a conformist myself ;~).
>Experimenting is how you learn stuff :o)

learning is good, learning by mistakes is fine too, as long as I don't
damage the fish.

<more snip>

>>
>> but first I have to buy a filter, lid and stand. not to mention all
>that
>> sand and a few more plants. Filters for this size tank aren't cheap (I
>> think I might fancy an eheim aquaball, if I can get one. I like my
>> current little fluval a lot, but I've read some really mixed reviews of
>> the bigger ones.) and the stands won't be cheap either, and I suspect I
>> won't be able to do that all in one go. the planning is half the fun,
>> anyway.
>
>I'm very happy with the current production series of Fluvals 104 to 404
>and have about a dozen running in the shop. At home for that size of
>tanks, I have a 304 and a 2213 (not on the same tank). I prefer the 304,
>as the 2213 is a little dated. I've no experience with Aquaball filters.
>Internal canisters have their idiocincricies, which you already know
>about with your internal Fluval. For Goldfish though, overfilter! I
>would have thought that the AC300 powerfilter would be less expensive
>than all the choices we discussed. For sand, you should not have to pay
>much. The lid can be home made. Skip the polo lights as indicated.
>That leaves the stand & filter. Your aquarium seller can't set you up
>with a filter?

I kind of wanted a new one, possibly not my best idea! I don't know if
the Aqua Clear (are they the AC300 manufacturers??) are available here.
The reason I was after an internal canister is because I had an idea
they are quieter. they also seem a little cheaper.

<snink>
>
>Very welcome, glad to help. Yes, larger tanks are more self-maintaining,
>and 48x18x18 is a very nice size (though I'm biased). It's not so big
>that it takes 3 people to carry it or require floor reinforcements, but
>it is big enough to do alot of things with it.

as I have these goldfish which require gigantic amounts of
space-per-fish, it's kind of a necessity! I'm looking forward to them
getting big. and not eating the minnows...

thank you again,
--
sophie

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, NetMax
> > writes
>
>
> <snick>
>
> >
> >> >> the base, and I thought yes, I'll test it by filling it with
water
> >in
> >> >> the conservatory - which, I now discover, doesn't have a flat
floor.
> >> >> Looks flat, but isn't. I think what I'll do is get it into the
right
> >> >> place (once I've got a stand for it) and fill it there. I'll need
to
> >> >
> >> >On a slightly uneven floor, put the tank on a sheet of 3/4" plywood
> >which
> >> >is on top of a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam.
> >>
> >> I'd understood this, (and even the reason for it!) but I'm not sure
> >that
> >> the floor counts as "slightly" uneven, the tank is a cm off the
floor
> >at
> >> one end (and it is the floor that's wonky, not the tank, I checked).
> >
> >One cm would be more than the styrofoam could absorb. Alternately set
> >your plywood on four bricks (one per corner). It does not need to be
> >level, only flat. You could shim 1 corner if you needed to raise it
1cm.
> >You could also place the plywood on a level spot on the lawn (grass).
I
> >must be more daring than most, as I just set it into a normal stand
and
> >fill it with very warm water.
>
> warm? is this something to do with testing the silicone? and I thinkg I
> tend to agree with you that putting it on a stand would be easier! when
> you say the tank doesn't have to be level, only flat, do you mean for
> testing purposes or generally? wouldn't an un-level tank put undue
> pressure on the lowest wall, or is it that because the pressure from
the
> water is outwards in all directions the added weight on the lower wall
> isn't an issue? (one of the things that I find unnerving about metal
> stands is the fact that they only support the edges of the tank...)

Under water pressure, silicone needs to flex, so testing old tanks with
cold water is a severe test to start with. I usually first test with a
more accurate water temperature (ie: 80-90F). You can then test with
cooler water if you like, as the silicone has already softened up a bit.

> <snip useful info about bacteria, also other stuff, thank you>
>
> > I have customers come in for
> >aquatic plants to feed their Goldfish. I usually send them off with
less
> >expensive ideas (zuchinni, brussel sprouts, pealed peas, oranges,
> >blanched lettuce etc),
>
> mine won't eat lettuce, but they go nuts for blanched skinned peas.
only
> one of them likes the mini-worms, but the minnows guzzle those in a
> slightly sinister way.
>
> > or I sell them Amazon swords, Anubius or Onion
> >plants (which have a better chance of survival). I keep planted
African
> >cichlid tanks, so I'm certainly not a conformist myself ;~).
> >Experimenting is how you learn stuff :o)
>
> learning is good, learning by mistakes is fine too, as long as I don't
> damage the fish.

That's where common sense begins to creep in. It gets much easier as you
go along. For example on the topic of foods, avoid exterior surfaces of
veggies which might be sprayed for pesticides, and avoid creatures which
have toxins in them (spiders, newts, bees etc). It makes perfect sense
when you think about it.

> <more snip>
>
> >>
> >> but first I have to buy a filter, lid and stand. not to mention all
> >that
> >> sand and a few more plants. Filters for this size tank aren't cheap
(I
> >> think I might fancy an eheim aquaball, if I can get one. I like my
> >> current little fluval a lot, but I've read some really mixed reviews
of
> >> the bigger ones.) and the stands won't be cheap either, and I
suspect I
> >> won't be able to do that all in one go. the planning is half the
fun,
> >> anyway.
> >
> >I'm very happy with the current production series of Fluvals 104 to
404
> >and have about a dozen running in the shop. At home for that size of
> >tanks, I have a 304 and a 2213 (not on the same tank). I prefer the
304,
> >as the 2213 is a little dated. I've no experience with Aquaball
filters.
> >Internal canisters have their idiocincricies, which you already know
> >about with your internal Fluval. For Goldfish though, overfilter! I
> >would have thought that the AC300 powerfilter would be less expensive
> >than all the choices we discussed. For sand, you should not have to
pay
> >much. The lid can be home made. Skip the polo lights as indicated.
> >That leaves the stand & filter. Your aquarium seller can't set you up
> >with a filter?
>
> I kind of wanted a new one, possibly not my best idea! I don't know if
> the Aqua Clear (are they the AC300 manufacturers??) are available here.
> The reason I was after an internal canister is because I had an idea
> they are quieter. they also seem a little cheaper.

Hagen manufactures the AquaClear 300 which I abbreviate into AC300. Any
internal canister will be quieter than a power filter, because the water
insulates your noise source. Powerfilters may have a motor hum,
components rattle (cover) and you have the sound of the water returning
(louder as the tank level is lower). After internal canisters, external
canisters might be the next quietest. I don't know about the costs where
you are. The internal canister's best feature is the ability to position
it anywhere (your tank might only be half-filled with water and the
filter will work fine, set lower down). The same applies to sponge
powerhead filters. Their drawback is a more akward servicing, they
displace valuable space inside the tank and they have limited filter
media choices & area. In the end, you should use the filter you are most
comfortable with, as that is what you will least likely mind servicing,
which means it's better for the fish :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> <snink>
> >
> >Very welcome, glad to help. Yes, larger tanks are more
self-maintaining,
> >and 48x18x18 is a very nice size (though I'm biased). It's not so big
> >that it takes 3 people to carry it or require floor reinforcements,
but
> >it is big enough to do alot of things with it.
>
> as I have these goldfish which require gigantic amounts of
> space-per-fish, it's kind of a necessity! I'm looking forward to them
> getting big. and not eating the minnows...
>
> thank you again,
> --
> sophie

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes

<snip>

>> > I just set it into a normal stand
>and
>> >fill it with very warm water.
>>
>> warm? is this something to do with testing the silicone? and I thinkg I
>> tend to agree with you that putting it on a stand would be easier! when
>> you say the tank doesn't have to be level, only flat, do you mean for
>> testing purposes or generally? wouldn't an un-level tank put undue
>> pressure on the lowest wall, or is it that because the pressure from
>the
>> water is outwards in all directions the added weight on the lower wall
>> isn't an issue? (one of the things that I find unnerving about metal
>> stands is the fact that they only support the edges of the tank...)
>
>Under water pressure, silicone needs to flex, so testing old tanks with
>cold water is a severe test to start with. I usually first test with a
>more accurate water temperature (ie: 80-90F). You can then test with
>cooler water if you like, as the silicone has already softened up a bit.

thank you. I like understanding what/why I'm doing stuff. Thanks also
for the useful filter info; I think I will probably go with a couple of
internal fluval canisters as I can't find a single internal to deal with
this volume. quietness is the priority here and they're not so huge.
ordered the stand today :-)

I hope you have time to relax and enjoy yourself between the shop and
the usenet advice...
thanks again,
--
sophie