attempting fishless cycling

[Mike Engelhardt]

So my wife said we should get fish and I'm now
the designated aquarist. I'm a cat person, never
had fish. After some web research I've decided
to do this fishless cycling. I'm having a couple
problems. First, I don't really know if I'm
comparing the colors correctly when I try to
measure NH3. I don't have an eye dropper so I'm
using an insulin syringe to measure clear ammonia
solution that I got from Longs Drugs. This syringe
has 100 units in a 1CC. Since I don't know the
concentration I added some ammonia and then measure
again. It seemed like 60U were needed to get to
2ppm NH3. That agreed with 30U required to get to
1ppm NH3. But I couldn't get the color to go beyond
2ppm. Even after adding 235 Units total I didn't
really make the solution color look like good strong
4ppm. I was trying for 5ppm and the test kit colors
are for 2ppm, 4ppm, and 8ppm.

This is a 10 Gal tank with a power filter hanging off
the back. The filter is new and has some activated
charcoal. There is 10 lbs gravel with a bubble wand
buried in it. Looks nice. The tank also contains a
plastic plan and a largish natural stone from the LFS
that looks porous. Is something adsorbing the NH3 or
is my NH3 test kit inaccurate or am I color blind? I
was planing on adding two 1" fantails once the tank
cycled and then getting a bigger tank as they grew in
a year or two.

Over the following 6 days now NH3 seems to have stayed
around 4ppm. Maybe it's 2ppm. I don't trust my
measurement method. I have not added any ammonia
except today I put in 30U(which might raise it 1ppm)
There are zero nitrites. pH is 7.8 and steady.
There is no heater and tank temp varies from
74 to 78 degrees.

There is no particular starter source for bacteria.
BIO-Spira is not shipping and the LFS's think I'm
stupid to do fishless cycling.

Any comments? I realize it's only been six days,
but am I on the right track? Should I wait it out
or should I take some corrective action on my ammonia
doses. I guess I'm still planning on just trying to
keep it at 5ppm NH3(though I could be off by 2x) until
Nitrites appear. Then many just going to about 30U
per day. I've never had fish before(and still don't).

Thanks in advance for any input,

--Mike

[disco]

Mike,

dont listen to anything LFS people have to tell you, they have no
training or experience to help you there. if you don't have a
good-bacteria sources, use some dirt. patience is important and it
will take time.

you can look in baby section of grocery store for medicine droppers
that measure parts per million btw.

once you get bacteria there, keep feeding it ammonia, lest u have fish
already to throw in there.

there is also reasonably good info out there on fishless cycling to
serve as some baseline marker for cycling process.

disco

[Geezer From The Freezer]

I did the same method that Dr Solo suggested - worked
a treat for me!

[[email protected]]

http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
biospira cycles the tank within 5 days or so OR
FISHLESS CYCLING OF TANKS
rather than getting the RIGHT kind of ammonia and getting the RIGHT amount in the
tank, a pinch of Hikari Gold fish food for a small tank up to a tablespoon in a 75
gallon can be tossed into the tank, the heat set to 82oF and plenty of aeration. In
3 days or so watch the ammonia. If no ammonia is seen add more food.
Ingrid


"Mike Engelhardt" > wrote:

>So my wife said we should get fish and I'm now
>the designated aquarist. I'm a cat person, never
>had fish. After some web research I've decided
>to do this fishless cycling. I'm having a couple
>problems. First, I don't really know if I'm
>comparing the colors correctly when I try to
>measure NH3. I don't have an eye dropper so I'm
>using an insulin syringe to measure clear ammonia
>solution that I got from Longs Drugs. This syringe
>has 100 units in a 1CC. Since I don't know the
>concentration I added some ammonia and then measure
>again. It seemed like 60U were needed to get to
>2ppm NH3. That agreed with 30U required to get to
>1ppm NH3. But I couldn't get the color to go beyond
>2ppm. Even after adding 235 Units total I didn't
>really make the solution color look like good strong
>4ppm. I was trying for 5ppm and the test kit colors
>are for 2ppm, 4ppm, and 8ppm.
>
>This is a 10 Gal tank with a power filter hanging off
>the back. The filter is new and has some activated
>charcoal. There is 10 lbs gravel with a bubble wand
>buried in it. Looks nice. The tank also contains a
>plastic plan and a largish natural stone from the LFS
>that looks porous. Is something adsorbing the NH3 or
>is my NH3 test kit inaccurate or am I color blind? I
>was planing on adding two 1" fantails once the tank
>cycled and then getting a bigger tank as they grew in
>a year or two.
>
>Over the following 6 days now NH3 seems to have stayed
>around 4ppm. Maybe it's 2ppm. I don't trust my
>measurement method. I have not added any ammonia
>except today I put in 30U(which might raise it 1ppm)
>There are zero nitrites. pH is 7.8 and steady.
>There is no heater and tank temp varies from
>74 to 78 degrees.
>
>There is no particular starter source for bacteria.
>BIO-Spira is not shipping and the LFS's think I'm
>stupid to do fishless cycling.
>
>Any comments? I realize it's only been six days,
>but am I on the right track? Should I wait it out
>or should I take some corrective action on my ammonia
>doses. I guess I'm still planning on just trying to
>keep it at 5ppm NH3(though I could be off by 2x) until
>Nitrites appear. Then many just going to about 30U
>per day. I've never had fish before(and still don't).
>
>Thanks in advance for any input,
>
>--Mike
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Haynes'ey]

--
Haynes'ey.
"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
> I did the same method that Dr Solo suggested - worked
> a treat for me!

I also did something similar and it worked.

[Mike Engelhardt]

disco,

> ...if you don't have a good-bacteria sources, use some dirt.

OK, so far I've twice taken a tablespoon of garden soil, mixed
it with a cup of tank water, filtered it and added it back. I
sort of have mixed feelings about how successful this will be,
since I'm told that my city water has cloramines which kill the
bacteria I'm trying to culture and that's the water I use to
water my garden.

> you can look in baby section of grocery store for medicine
> droppers that measure parts per million btw.

I found a conversion from drop to more widely documented units.
A drop is supposed to be 1/72 tsp. = 0.002 oz. = 0.065 mL, which
amounts to 6.5units measured with a 100U insulin syringe. I just
didn't know the size of a "drop". I can casually make volumetric
measure much more accurately then the average titration tube.
The point here is that a drop is much larger then I thought, so
the amount of ammonia solution I added is now pretty reasonable.

Anyway, I'm still at zero Nitrites and ammonia measures about
4ppm. I'm adding 5 drops of ammonia solution per day, which I
will probably double, since I know my clear ammonia isn't as
concentrated as the stuff used in the fishless cycling
literature.

--Mike

[Tom L.L.]

Mike,

Personally, I think fishless cycling is a waste of time, but to each
his own.

In any event, the technique of using dirt is a useless, because the
bugs in the soil are not the same as the ones needed in the water to
do the job. I first heard this silliness a while ago about the dirt,
and it seems to have turned into an urban legend.

In any event, you may want to add some airstones, because oxygen
content in the water is paramount for establishing the nitrogen cycle;
the more the better. Two or three airstones is a good idea and after
the cycle is established you can take one or two out depending on your
stocking density.

HTH

Tom L.L.


"Mike Engelhardt" > wrote in message >...
> disco,
>
> > ...if you don't have a good-bacteria sources, use some dirt.
>
> OK, so far I've twice taken a tablespoon of garden soil, mixed
> it with a cup of tank water, filtered it and added it back. I
> sort of have mixed feelings about how successful this will be,
> since I'm told that my city water has cloramines which kill the
> bacteria I'm trying to culture and that's the water I use to
> water my garden.
>
> > you can look in baby section of grocery store for medicine
> > droppers that measure parts per million btw.
>
> I found a conversion from drop to more widely documented units.
> A drop is supposed to be 1/72 tsp. = 0.002 oz. = 0.065 mL, which
> amounts to 6.5units measured with a 100U insulin syringe. I just
> didn't know the size of a "drop". I can casually make volumetric
> measure much more accurately then the average titration tube.
> The point here is that a drop is much larger then I thought, so
> the amount of ammonia solution I added is now pretty reasonable.
>
> Anyway, I'm still at zero Nitrites and ammonia measures about
> 4ppm. I'm adding 5 drops of ammonia solution per day, which I
> will probably double, since I know my clear ammonia isn't as
> concentrated as the stuff used in the fishless cycling
> literature.
>
> --Mike

[Mick Manford]

You do know that you have to treat all water at all times to get rid
of chloramines if that is in your water?

YOur cycle won't get going if you don't do that.

Its just you mention having chloramines but you don't say you are
conditioning your water with anything.

[Mike Engelhardt]

Mick,

> You do know that you have to treat all water at all times
> to get rid of chloramines if that is in your water?
>
> YOur cycle won't get going if you don't do that.

Yes, of course I treated the water in the fish tank for
the chloramines. Tetra AquaSafe. Read the thread for
further tank details.

> Its just you mention having chloramines but you don't
> say you are conditioning your water with anything.

I wrote that I don't treat the water with which I water the
vegetable garden, so I was suspicious about being able to get
any starter bacteria from dirt out of the garden as was
suggested by two internet sources. I live in a semi-desert
so all the water in the garden is from a source with
chloramines. Tom L. says it's nonsense to try to get bacteria
from the dirt anyway since it's not the right strain needed
in an aquarium.

Anyway, today is day 13 and I have still have zero
nitrites. This fishless cycling thing is big on the Internet
but neither LFS's or the people I know that have fish seem
to hold much credence for it. I'll wait it out for a month
or two. I may end up waiting until Biospira comes back
on the market.

--Mike

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Just buy one fish and do 10% daily or 20% every other day water changes!
Even though I seeded my tank, I added fish to it to feed the bio-bugs
it was cycled pretty much instantly- If I had no way to seed, I'd still
add one fish OR feed the tank fish food for a few weeks - that'll get
the bio-bugs going.

[[email protected]]

it isnt silly at all. you just need to ask a microbiologist or bacteriologist. all
dirt has all the bacteria in it for converting waste products. filters in water of
course have a greater concentration of the bacteria.
consider that usually a new tank is set up and NO dirt or bacteria-in-a-bottle is put
in and the tank cycles anyway with or without fish.

So then, where does all the bacteria come from?????? spontaneous generation?

IT COMES FROM THE AIR, really, it doesnt come from the chlorine treated water, the
fish, etc.

Since I was the one recommended "dirt" from the garden I will tell you why. People
were constancy paying out bocu bucks for these "starter" bacteria that didnt/dont
work, a waste of money better spent on water tests. But since telling them the
bacteria were useless didnt seem to deter I figured I would tell em to put in a
tablespoon of dirt which got elaborated into the "shake and pour". A little dirt
will have some of the bacteria needed, wont hurt, and lets people feel they are doing
something.

Of course, now there is something that really works, Biospira, I suggest people go
get that. it is pricey, but at least it works and is not a waste of money.
Ingrid


"Mike Engelhardt" > wrote:
>I wrote that I don't treat the water with which I water the
>vegetable garden, so I was suspicious about being able to get
>any starter bacteria from dirt out of the garden as was
>suggested by two internet sources. I live in a semi-desert
>so all the water in the garden is from a source with
>chloramines. Tom L. says it's nonsense to try to get bacteria
>from the dirt anyway since it's not the right strain needed
>in an aquarium.
>
>Anyway, today is day 13 and I have still have zero
>nitrites. This fishless cycling thing is big on the Internet
>but neither LFS's or the people I know that have fish seem
>to hold much credence for it. I'll wait it out for a month
>or two. I may end up waiting until Biospira comes back
>on the market.
>
>--Mike
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Yes Ingrid,

When first mentioned this "technique" I decided to as
ask a qualified microbiologist and bacteriologist,
researchers in their fields, and they laughed at the
silliness of it.

Like you said though it gives individuals something to
do, so they feel like they are doing something. You
said it, I didn't.

I have never understood this situation, my tanks are
cycled in 2 to 3 weeks. I will admit that my pond
outside took close to six weeks to cycle one year, but
that spring we had heavy rain storms producing lots of
rain, that kept changing the water chemistry, so it
took a little longer.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------

wrote:

> it isnt silly at all. you just need to ask a microbiologist or bacteriologist. all
> dirt has all the bacteria in it for converting waste products. filters in water of
> course have a greater concentration of the bacteria.
> consider that usually a new tank is set up and NO dirt or bacteria-in-a-bottle is put
> in and the tank cycles anyway with or without fish.
>
> So then, where does all the bacteria come from?????? spontaneous generation?
>
> IT COMES FROM THE AIR, really, it doesnt come from the chlorine treated water, the
> fish, etc.
>
> Since I was the one recommended "dirt" from the garden I will tell you why. People
> were constancy paying out bocu bucks for these "starter" bacteria that didnt/dont
> work, a waste of money better spent on water tests. But since telling them the
> bacteria were useless didnt seem to deter I figured I would tell em to put in a
> tablespoon of dirt which got elaborated into the "shake and pour". A little dirt
> will have some of the bacteria needed, wont hurt, and lets people feel they are doing
> something.
>
> Of course, now there is something that really works, Biospira, I suggest people go
> get that. it is pricey, but at least it works and is not a waste of money.
> Ingrid
>
>
> "Mike Engelhardt" > wrote:
>
>>I wrote that I don't treat the water with which I water the
>>vegetable garden, so I was suspicious about being able to get
>>any starter bacteria from dirt out of the garden as was
>>suggested by two internet sources. I live in a semi-desert
>>so all the water in the garden is from a source with
>>chloramines. Tom L. says it's nonsense to try to get bacteria
>
>>from the dirt anyway since it's not the right strain needed
>
>>in an aquarium.
>>
>>Anyway, today is day 13 and I have still have zero
>>nitrites. This fishless cycling thing is big on the Internet
>>but neither LFS's or the people I know that have fish seem
>>to hold much credence for it. I'll wait it out for a month
>>or two. I may end up waiting until Biospira comes back
>>on the market.
>>
>>--Mike
>>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.