goldfish genetics - survival of the fittest.

[johnhuddleston]

Okay, question about my fry tank.

Earlier this year I had the good fortune to have 2 of my common goldies
spawn. after a lot of die offs (which seemed to stop the moment I stopped
water changes and just let nature and filtering take their course) I now
have about 40 tiny goldfish.

The thing that worries me is that there is such a variety of shapes and
sizes. Some have split tails and extra fins like fancies, colors vary from
practically black to transparent, one has a deformed back, he feeds and gets
around fine but as soon as he`s startled he panics and does loop the loops
on the spot. Sizes range from 6mm up to 20mm and i`m worried that the
larger, less fancy shaped fish will start to predate their way through the
weaker fish. Does this happen with fry who all grew together? (they seem to
stick in a friendly looking shoal in the corner of the tank under the
monstera roots) Is it worth moving the weaker fish to another tank (i have a
16*9*9 hospital tank thats never been used) or would it be better to just
let nature take its course?

In the next couple of months i will have access to a friends 1200 gallon
pond so theres no problem emptying a couple of my other tanks to home them
in the future.

Also is it normal for two perfectly common goldies to produce fancy traits?
indeed are they fancy traits or just deformities? And do fancies produce the
common varieties?

A lot of questions i know, and i`m a bit all over the place :) any
experienced views appreciated.

--

[Charles]

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:13:02 GMT, "johnhuddleston"
> wrote:

>Okay, question about my fry tank.
>
>Earlier this year I had the good fortune to have 2 of my common goldies
>spawn. after a lot of die offs (which seemed to stop the moment I stopped
>water changes and just let nature and filtering take their course) I now
>have about 40 tiny goldfish.
>
>The thing that worries me is that there is such a variety of shapes and
>sizes. Some have split tails and extra fins like fancies, colors vary from
>practically black to transparent, one has a deformed back, he feeds and gets
>around fine but as soon as he`s startled he panics and does loop the loops
>on the spot. Sizes range from 6mm up to 20mm and i`m worried that the
>larger, less fancy shaped fish will start to predate their way through the
>weaker fish. Does this happen with fry who all grew together? (they seem to
>stick in a friendly looking shoal in the corner of the tank under the
>monstera roots) Is it worth moving the weaker fish to another tank (i have a
>16*9*9 hospital tank thats never been used) or would it be better to just
>let nature take its course?
>
>In the next couple of months i will have access to a friends 1200 gallon
>pond so theres no problem emptying a couple of my other tanks to home them
>in the future.
>
>Also is it normal for two perfectly common goldies to produce fancy traits?
>indeed are they fancy traits or just deformities? And do fancies produce the
>common varieties?
>
>A lot of questions i know, and i`m a bit all over the place :) any
>experienced views appreciated.


some info here
http://www.canadiangoldfish.com/newsletters/summer20035.htm

http://www.aqualink.com/columns/k-gold6.html

You can't keep them all.

I've lost young to predation by a batch about two months older.

I would guess that your commons are not pure common, but heterozygous.
They may have come from culled stock which were being bred for double
fins, fancy goldfish.

Joseph Smartt has a couple books out on goldfish genetics. Most of
what I learned is how much is not yet known about goldfish genetics.

Fancies do produce common types. I had some Ryukins breed, I saw
about 24 young, zero double tails. Expression of double tails is
somewhat under environmental control, as well as genetics.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[johnhuddleston]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:13:02 GMT, "johnhuddleston"
> > wrote:
>
> >Okay, question about my fry tank.
> >
> >Earlier this year I had the good fortune to have 2 of my common goldies
> >spawn. after a lot of die offs (which seemed to stop the moment I stopped
> >water changes and just let nature and filtering take their course) I now
> >have about 40 tiny goldfish.
> >
> >The thing that worries me is that there is such a variety of shapes and
> >sizes. Some have split tails and extra fins like fancies, colors vary
from
> >practically black to transparent, one has a deformed back, he feeds and
gets
> >around fine but as soon as he`s startled he panics and does loop the
loops
> >on the spot. Sizes range from 6mm up to 20mm and i`m worried that the
> >larger, less fancy shaped fish will start to predate their way through
the
> >weaker fish. Does this happen with fry who all grew together? (they seem
to
> >stick in a friendly looking shoal in the corner of the tank under the
> >monstera roots) Is it worth moving the weaker fish to another tank (i
have a
> >16*9*9 hospital tank thats never been used) or would it be better to just
> >let nature take its course?
> >
> >In the next couple of months i will have access to a friends 1200 gallon
> >pond so theres no problem emptying a couple of my other tanks to home
them
> >in the future.
> >
> >Also is it normal for two perfectly common goldies to produce fancy
traits?
> >indeed are they fancy traits or just deformities? And do fancies produce
the
> >common varieties?
> >
> >A lot of questions i know, and i`m a bit all over the place :) any
> >experienced views appreciated.
>
>
> some info here
> http://www.canadiangoldfish.com/newsletters/summer20035.htm
>
> http://www.aqualink.com/columns/k-gold6.html
>
> You can't keep them all.

Ouch. I think i`ve left them very late to start culling. I`m not really
breeding for a specific breed, just hoping for fish that will be healthy. I
think I Will do a cull, just weed out the 20 or so smallest and slowest
swimmers, they will be dropped into the adult tank tomorrow. I`m going to
keep the fancy looking ones too, just to see what they grow into.

> I've lost young to predation by a batch about two months older.
>
> I would guess that your commons are not pure common, but heterozygous.
> They may have come from culled stock which were being bred for double
> fins, fancy goldfish.

I suspected as much as one double tail could be a fluke, bit not the 4 or 5
i have.

> Joseph Smartt has a couple books out on goldfish genetics. Most of
> what I learned is how much is not yet known about goldfish genetics.

you`d think with the long history of goldfish breeding there would be oceans
known.

> Fancies do produce common types. I had some Ryukins breed, I saw
> about 24 young, zero double tails. Expression of double tails is
> somewhat under environmental control, as well as genetics.

I`ll have to read up on this. its very interesting, it was quite a pleasant
surprise to find some double tails. Thanks for the reply :)

[BErney1014]

>you`d think with the long history of goldfish breeding there would be oceans
>known.

The history of the parents could be popping up.
Goldfish will be caniballistic if they are not thinned and you will be left
with big fat mutts. The most interesting will have been eaten.