PH Crash...

[Kodiak]

PH Crashed in my 55gal.
I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
after only one day

Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.

Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
Does the water get acidic faster?
--
....Kodiak

[Charles]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:51:18 -0400, "Kodiak" > wrote:

>PH Crashed in my 55gal.
>I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
>PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
>after only one day
>
>Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
>this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.
>
>Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
>summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
>Does the water get acidic faster?


It seems like it should. All the metabolic processes will speed up,
the fish burn food faster, generate ammonia faster.

Running with zero carbonate is like balancing a pencil on its point,
nothing to provide stability. Why do it?


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Tom L.L.]

Kodiak,

I will assume that your tank is cycled and with that premise your KH
went to zero because the bacteria use the carbonate ions that
establishes the KH in their process of processing ammonia in nitrites
and nitrites in to nitrates. You need something in your setup to
continually replace the carbonates back in to the water. In any
event, with out KH in your water your pH crashs to the acid side.

Don't know about your GH, because that is how much Ca is in your
water.

Tom L.L.


"Kodiak" > wrote in message >...
> PH Crashed in my 55gal.
> I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
> PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
> after only one day
>
> Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
> this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.
>
> Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
> summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
> Does the water get acidic faster?

[Kodiak]

Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
....Kodiak

"Tom L.L." > wrote in message
om...
> Kodiak,
>
> I will assume that your tank is cycled and with that premise your KH
> went to zero because the bacteria use the carbonate ions that
> establishes the KH in their process of processing ammonia in nitrites
> and nitrites in to nitrates. You need something in your setup to
> continually replace the carbonates back in to the water. In any
> event, with out KH in your water your pH crashs to the acid side.
>
> Don't know about your GH, because that is how much Ca is in your
> water.
>
> Tom L.L.
>
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
>...
> > PH Crashed in my 55gal.
> > I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
> > PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
> > after only one day
> >
> > Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
> > this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.
> >
> > Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
> > summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
> > Does the water get acidic faster?

[Charles]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:58:18 -0400, "Kodiak" > wrote:

>Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
>comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
>of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
>Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
>do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
>Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
>I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
>...Kodiak
>
Oyster shell should be fine, the kind sold for chickens would be good.

Somewhere I read a note about using plaster of paris, just casting a
block and putting it into the tank. Use the cheapest plaster of
paris, not the fancy ones which extra components. That writer got his
at home depot.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[johnhuddleston]

would cuttlefish do? and how would it affect PH?

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:58:18 -0400, "Kodiak" > wrote:
>
> >Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
> >comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
> >of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
> >Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
> >do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
> >Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
> >I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
> >...Kodiak
> >
> Oyster shell should be fine, the kind sold for chickens would be good.
>
> Somewhere I read a note about using plaster of paris, just casting a
> block and putting it into the tank. Use the cheapest plaster of
> paris, not the fancy ones which extra components. That writer got his
> at home depot.
> --
>
> - Charles
> -
> -does not play well with others

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kodiak,

Dolomitic lime can usually only to be found around
areas where a lot of aquaculture is evident,
Mississippi and Louisiana are good places to look for
it. You can sometimes find it in a garden center, but
it is not very easily found around here in Oklahoma.
Dolomitic lime at one time was feed to livestock and
was easy to find, but substitutes have been found and
so it has disappeared from most areas. The best,
cheapest thing that I have found is Oyster shell
chicken grit. It too has when used extensively in the
aquaculture community. I know of a trout facility that
runs its return water through about a ton of it.

You can find it at a feed store or a store caters to
the agriculture community. Let your fingers do the
walking and make a few calls before you strike out to
find some. 50lbs costs about $3.00, or that is what it
costs around here.

In my ponds I have a tray of it that the water falls
through after it has went through the mechanical filter
materials of the filter. In tanks I used a nylon
stocking to either put if in the filter or let it hang
above the rising water from an airstone. Keeps my
water 80-120ppm KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------
Kodiak wrote:
> Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
> comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
> of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
> Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
> do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
> Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
> I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Tom L.L." > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Kodiak,
>>
>>I will assume that your tank is cycled and with that premise your KH
>>went to zero because the bacteria use the carbonate ions that
>>establishes the KH in their process of processing ammonia in nitrites
>>and nitrites in to nitrates. You need something in your setup to
>>continually replace the carbonates back in to the water. In any
>>event, with out KH in your water your pH crashs to the acid side.
>>
>>Don't know about your GH, because that is how much Ca is in your
>>water.
>>
>>Tom L.L.
>>
>>
>>"Kodiak" > wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>PH Crashed in my 55gal.
>>>I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
>>>PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
>>>after only one day
>>>
>>>Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
>>>this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.
>>>
>>>Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
>>>summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
>>>Does the water get acidic faster?
>
>
>

[Kodiak]

Thanks Tom,
Gonna check it out tomorrow....
....Kodiak

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> Dolomitic lime can usually only to be found around
> areas where a lot of aquaculture is evident,
> Mississippi and Louisiana are good places to look for
> it. You can sometimes find it in a garden center, but
> it is not very easily found around here in Oklahoma.
> Dolomitic lime at one time was feed to livestock and
> was easy to find, but substitutes have been found and
> so it has disappeared from most areas. The best,
> cheapest thing that I have found is Oyster shell
> chicken grit. It too has when used extensively in the
> aquaculture community. I know of a trout facility that
> runs its return water through about a ton of it.
>
> You can find it at a feed store or a store caters to
> the agriculture community. Let your fingers do the
> walking and make a few calls before you strike out to
> find some. 50lbs costs about $3.00, or that is what it
> costs around here.
>
> In my ponds I have a tray of it that the water falls
> through after it has went through the mechanical filter
> materials of the filter. In tanks I used a nylon
> stocking to either put if in the filter or let it hang
> above the rising water from an airstone. Keeps my
> water 80-120ppm KH.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.
> -----------------------------------------
> Kodiak wrote:
> > Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
> > comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
> > of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
> > Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
> > do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
> > Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
> > I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> > "Tom L.L." > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>Kodiak,
> >>
> >>I will assume that your tank is cycled and with that premise your KH
> >>went to zero because the bacteria use the carbonate ions that
> >>establishes the KH in their process of processing ammonia in nitrites
> >>and nitrites in to nitrates. You need something in your setup to
> >>continually replace the carbonates back in to the water. In any
> >>event, with out KH in your water your pH crashs to the acid side.
> >>
> >>Don't know about your GH, because that is how much Ca is in your
> >>water.
> >>
> >>Tom L.L.
> >>
> >>
> >>"Kodiak" > wrote in message
> >
> > >...
> >
> >>>PH Crashed in my 55gal.
> >>>I had 0 KH carbonate hardness and only 20ppm GH.
> >>>PH was at 6.0, one of my fish got sluggish and died
> >>>after only one day
> >>>
> >>>Maintenance has always been the same. I don't know how
> >>>this could of happened, ok I was heavily stocked.
> >>>
> >>>Question is, is it harder to maintain water quality in the
> >>>summer when water temperature goes up. (82degF.)
> >>>Does the water get acidic faster?
> >
> >
> >

[[email protected]]

it is a fast way to kill fish. it does not stabilize the pH. it makes naturally
soft water swing up and down in pH. Ingrid

Charles > wrote:
>Somewhere I read a note about using plaster of paris, just casting a
>block and putting it into the tank. Use the cheapest plaster of
>paris, not the fancy ones which extra components. That writer got his
>at home depot.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

the only thing drive pH below 6.4 (heavy CO2 dissolved) is organics and nitrites will
do it too. chicken and oyster shell have calcium, but no magnesium and dont dissolve
very fast. there is the added problem of possible contaminants, both organic and
inorganic. they are not recommended except in a pinch. go to walmart or a garden
store and get organic dolomitic limestone. it will be whitish with dark flecks in
it. and when you put a handful into 1 gallon the pH wont go over 8 or so.
get a large rubbermaid for a hospital tank. the more water the faster fish come
around. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
>comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
>of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
>Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
>do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
>Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
>I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kodiak,

Ingrid is on her misinformation high horse again.
Oyster shell chicken grit not only has calcium and
magnesium in it, but it has a lot of trace elements
that you don't get from dolomitic lime. Oh, lets us
use some sense here also, if the chickens are using the
oyster shell chicken grit and it has contaminants in it
then that would mean that you were eating these
contaminants in your eggs and fried chicken. Oyster
shells are used for chicken grit all over the US and
like I said it is used extensively in the food fish
aquaculture industry.

I doubt you can get the dolomitic lime from Wal-mart.
I have never found it there, but you may find in the
area where you live, but I would call first. I found
it once at LOWES, but when I went back for some more
they told me that they were not suppose to get it and
only had it on the shelf by mistake. You don't need it
to dissolve fast. It dissolves as it is needed just
like the dolomitic lime does. It is like colomitic
lime in the situation that if the water gets a little
acid, like when it rains, it dissolves into the
environment. If you want fast, use baking soda.

Oyster shell chicken grit works great. What more can I
say.

HTH clear this misinformation up.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------------
wrote:
> the only thing drive pH below 6.4 (heavy CO2 dissolved) is organics and nitrites will
> do it too. chicken and oyster shell have calcium, but no magnesium and dont dissolve
> very fast. there is the added problem of possible contaminants, both organic and
> inorganic. they are not recommended except in a pinch. go to walmart or a garden
> store and get organic dolomitic limestone. it will be whitish with dark flecks in
> it. and when you put a handful into 1 gallon the pH wont go over 8 or so.
> get a large rubbermaid for a hospital tank. the more water the faster fish come
> around. Ingrid
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
>
>>Well it's an empty hospital tank, so the only hardness
>>comes from the water i put in, and the "GH/KH"
>>of the water out my tap is very low to begin with.
>>Where do i find cheap Dolomitic limestone, and how
>>do I know it's gonna be safe for my fish? Should i use
>>Chicken or Oyster shell? Where can I buy that cheap?
>>I went to the brickyard yesterday and couldn't find anything.
>>...Kodiak
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

it is used for marine tanks. not suitable for fresh water. Ingrid

Jason Dale > wrote:
>The best thing to use is Crushed Coral
crushed coral as used for a substrate by Lake
>Malawi Cichlid and also marine tank owners was the sensible option.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

I use aragmax sand. I pay no attention to the nay sayers, because I have
great results on my side. However my common goldfish is getting huge. I
think way to big for a 55. I would use the crushed coral in the
substrate but will it hurt the goldfish? Is it sharp? The aragmax is so
small and rounded and safe for the smallest sand sifter.

PS I have apple snail only tanks and use aragmax sand and Kent's liquid
calcium at half does. They are freshwater apple snails and they are
thriving!

Kay


> it is used for marine tanks. not suitable for fresh water. Ingrid
>
> Jason Dale > wrote:
>
>>The best thing to use is Crushed Coral
>
> crushed coral as used for a substrate by Lake
>
>>Malawi Cichlid and also marine tank owners was the sensible option.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Jason Dale]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:02:14 GMT, wrote:

>it is used for marine tanks. not suitable for fresh water. Ingrid

It's in the marine section of some LFS but experts use it in
freshwater tanks to increase the GH, KH and pH. Refer to the link I
previously posted http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html for
clarification or
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/alkaline.shtml for further
clarification.

[Jason Dale]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:41:41 GMT, Kay > wrote:

>I use aragmax sand. I pay no attention to the nay sayers, because I have
>great results on my side. However my common goldfish is getting huge. I
>think way to big for a 55. I would use the crushed coral in the
>substrate but will it hurt the goldfish? Is it sharp? The aragmax is so
>small and rounded and safe for the smallest sand sifter.

In general you are supposed to use it in the filter based on the web
sites I've come across. Myself I added it to the substrate as I wanted
to keep using the siporax filter media in my external filter and it
felt the easier thing to do :).

Yes I guess the some crushed coral pieces are sharp and bigger fish
might hurt themselves on it, so maybe it would be best in a filter,
but then Lake Malawi Cichlids are biggish fish and it's used in their
tanks and also you have coral sand which is quite fine.

BTW why are you using coral to add calcium carbonate to a goldfish
setup as they don't need hard/alkaline water been happy at 6.5 to 7.5
pH according to my books.

>PS I have apple snail only tanks and use aragmax sand and Kent's liquid
>calcium at half does. They are freshwater apple snails and they are
>thriving!

I also have some snails which came on a plant, which are similar to
the ones at http://www.diewasserwelt.de/blasenschnecke.htm which is
the link a German sent me, they are supposed to great algae killers so
have decided to leave them alone :).

[[email protected]]

which experts? Jo Ann Burke is an expert. She does not recommend marine products
for freshwater fish. Ingrid

Jason Dale > wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:02:14 GMT, wrote:
>
>>it is used for marine tanks. not suitable for fresh water. Ingrid
>
>It's in the marine section of some LFS but experts use it in
>freshwater tanks to increase the GH, KH and pH. Refer to the link I
>previously posted http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html for
>clarification or
>http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/alkaline.shtml for further
>clarification.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Jason Dale]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:27:17 GMT, wrote:

>which experts? Jo Ann Burke is an expert. She does not recommend marine products
>for freshwater fish. Ingrid

Well the web sites I mentioned plus the following
http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/termsandtables/g/crushedcoral.htm

, plus Dr Neville Carrington of Interpet, Peter Hunnam. Annabel Milne,
Peter Stebbing all authors of books which cover hardness and how to
increase it.

[BErney1014]

>>which experts? Jo Ann Burke is an expert. She does not recommend marine
>products
>>for freshwater fish. Ingrid

Jason, she's all about politics, not facts.

[Kay]

I use the Liquid Calcium in my apple Snail only tanks to help keep thier
shell healthy. I do have minnows in there and they are not bothered by
it. They come in so many colors now. I have Gold, Ivory, Purple, Blue,
Brown. There is now blue striped and Pink. So I guess this does not
apply to goldfish. But the sand is great for my goldfish!

Kay

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:41:41 GMT, Kay > wrote:
>
>
>>I use aragmax sand. I pay no attention to the nay sayers, because I have
>>great results on my side. However my common goldfish is getting huge. I
>>think way to big for a 55. I would use the crushed coral in the
>>substrate but will it hurt the goldfish? Is it sharp? The aragmax is so
>>small and rounded and safe for the smallest sand sifter.
>
>
> In general you are supposed to use it in the filter based on the web
> sites I've come across. Myself I added it to the substrate as I wanted
> to keep using the siporax filter media in my external filter and it
> felt the easier thing to do :).
>
> Yes I guess the some crushed coral pieces are sharp and bigger fish
> might hurt themselves on it, so maybe it would be best in a filter,
> but then Lake Malawi Cichlids are biggish fish and it's used in their
> tanks and also you have coral sand which is quite fine.
>
> BTW why are you using coral to add calcium carbonate to a goldfish
> setup as they don't need hard/alkaline water been happy at 6.5 to 7.5
> pH according to my books.
>
>
>>PS I have apple snail only tanks and use aragmax sand and Kent's liquid
>>calcium at half does. They are freshwater apple snails and they are
>>thriving!
>
>
> I also have some snails which came on a plant, which are similar to
> the ones at http://www.diewasserwelt.de/blasenschnecke.htm which is
> the link a German sent me, they are supposed to great algae killers so
> have decided to leave them alone :).

[Jason Dale]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:56:18 GMT, Kay > wrote:

>I use the Liquid Calcium in my apple Snail only tanks to help keep thier
>shell healthy. I do have minnows in there and they are not bothered by
>it. They come in so many colors now. I have Gold, Ivory, Purple, Blue,
>Brown. There is now blue striped and Pink. So I guess this does not
>apply to goldfish. But the sand is great for my goldfish!

I guess you know about www.applesnail.net which seems to be the mecca
for Apple Snail lovers. I'm on the fence about snails as the ones I
have keep the tank clean and don't eat my plants, but I've never
really liked snails :).

[Kay]

I didn't know I liked them , until I bought my sister a betta and a
snail, and I saw that snail grow up. So I bought 4. then went to
www.applesnail.net and learned. I bought from a breeder, purple, blue
ivory and gold.
Kay



> On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:56:18 GMT, Kay > wrote:
>
>
>>I use the Liquid Calcium in my apple Snail only tanks to help keep thier
>>shell healthy. I do have minnows in there and they are not bothered by
>>it. They come in so many colors now. I have Gold, Ivory, Purple, Blue,
>>Brown. There is now blue striped and Pink. So I guess this does not
>>apply to goldfish. But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>
>
> I guess you know about www.applesnail.net which seems to be the mecca
> for Apple Snail lovers. I'm on the fence about snails as the ones I
> have keep the tank clean and don't eat my plants, but I've never
> really liked snails :).

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Kay wrote:
>But the sand is great for my goldfish!

Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills

[BErney1014]

>Kay wrote:
>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>
>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>

No, it doesn't.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >Kay wrote:
> >>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
> >
> >Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
> >
>
> No, it doesn't.

Good debate there!
Yes it does, its small an can be course and the gills are sensitive and not hard
the like the scales. Fish sucking sand up don't always spit it straight out,
sometimes it will seep out of the gills - not good!

The major problem though is sand is also prone to dead spots that can house
anaerobic bacteria. Sand is just plainly not a good idea for goldfish.

[Kay]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> Kay wrote:
>
>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>
>
> Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills

I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters. This saying, "sand is
not safe" is only an opinion. and not mine. All sand is not alike even
though some people here wants to think so. I think this is the only NG
that I have ever read that mantra. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion
and I always refer to more than one source.

Kay

[Kay]

BErney1014 wrote:

Thank you! My goldfish are active and healty.

Kay

>>Kay wrote:
>>
>>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>>
>>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>>
>
>
> No, it doesn't.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Kay wrote:
>
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
> >
> > Kay wrote:
> >
> >>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
> >
> >
> > Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>
> I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
> safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters. This saying, "sand is
> not safe" is only an opinion. and not mine. All sand is not alike even
> though some people here wants to think so. I think this is the only NG
> that I have ever read that mantra. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion
> and I always refer to more than one source.
>
> Kay

Goldfish are not small sifters like tropicals, who only up small amounts
(releasing less anerobic pockets). Ignore it if you like.
Check out www.goldfishparadise.com or www.kokosgoldfish.com and see
what they think. Research is your friend.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Kay wrote:
>
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
> >
> > Kay wrote:
> >
> >>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
> >
> >
> > Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>
> I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
> safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters

Some pet stores and products say goldfish bowls are fine for goldfish #
that isn't true. Don't believe everything thats hand fed.

[Kay]

I guess maybe freshwater sting ray tanks with sand is such a bad idea.
those poor stingrays... My goldfish have been in sand bottom tanks since
the beggining of thier lives. All these problem stated with sand, I have
not experenced. I would like to see proof of this terrible sand with the
sand I have. There is none.

Kay


>
> BErney1014 wrote:
>
>>>Kay wrote:
>>>
>>>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>>>
>>>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>>>
>>
>>No, it doesn't.
>
>
> Good debate there!
> Yes it does, its small an can be course and the gills are sensitive and not hard
> the like the scales. Fish sucking sand up don't always spit it straight out,
> sometimes it will seep out of the gills - not good!
>
> The major problem though is sand is also prone to dead spots that can house
> anaerobic bacteria. Sand is just plainly not a good idea for goldfish.

[BErney1014]

>The major problem though is sand is also prone to dead spots that can house
>anaerobic bacteria. Sand is just plainly not a good idea for goldfish.


Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >The major problem though is sand is also prone to dead spots that can house
> >anaerobic bacteria. Sand is just plainly not a good idea for goldfish.
>
> Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?

Goldfish in tanks are yes.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >The major problem though is sand is also prone to dead spots that can house
> >anaerobic bacteria. Sand is just plainly not a good idea for goldfish.
>
> Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?

Goldfish in tanks are yes. In the real world fish have thousands to millions
of gallons each, any anerobic bacteria is heavily diluted. Having goldfish
in a tank is not the real world.

[BErney1014]

>> Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?
>
>Goldfish in tanks are yes

I thought so. The facts will prove you have erroneous information, however, I
think you just go with the flow of opinion and put forward ideas that sound
plausible.
Sand without resistance will not abrade. Gills are designed by mother nature to
deal with sand. I have personal experience with sand and goldfish and can state
100% there is no problem. Sand also has nothing to do with anaerobic bacteria,
it's a fact of life in aqua and not specific to sand. Sand bottoms have
benefits that include better nitrification, a cleaner bottom and less
environmental stress on the fish. Stress being the major factor in health
issues makes sand a desirable feature.

[Kay]

Like I said I have talked with many breeders of goldfish, I don't buy
the montra. You kow who had a good laugh, my best friends father who
works for and sets up exibits at the Chicago Shedd Aquarim. I would take
his word than yours. But hey thats just me.

Kay
> Kay wrote:
>
>>Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>>
>>>Kay wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>>
>>I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
>>safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters. This saying, "sand is
>>not safe" is only an opinion. and not mine. All sand is not alike even
>>though some people here wants to think so. I think this is the only NG
>>that I have ever read that mantra. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion
>>and I always refer to more than one source.
>>
>>Kay
>
>
> Goldfish are not small sifters like tropicals, who only up small amounts
> (releasing less anerobic pockets). Ignore it if you like.
> Check out www.goldfishparadise.com or www.kokosgoldfish.com and see
> what they think. Research is your friend.

[Kay]

I will have to mention that to Chicago Shedd aquarium.That they are hand
feeding wrong infomation. LOL

Kay

>
> Kay wrote:
>
>>Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>>
>>>Kay wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>>
>>I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
>>safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters
>
>
> Some pet stores and products say goldfish bowls are fine for goldfish #
> that isn't true. Don't believe everything thats hand fed.

[BErney1014]

>Check out www.goldfishparadise.com or www.kokosgoldfish.com and see
>what they think. Research is your friend.

There is a research paper on gills, look for it and tell your pals what you
learned.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Sorry Geezer,

I search both sights and KOKO mentions she uses sand
and I could find nothing on sand in the website. I
looked in all of what I thought were the logical place
s, but couldn't find any reference to sand except that
which was mentioned.

I guess I need some direction. Assistance please?

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> Kay wrote:
>
>>Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>>
>>>Kay wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But the sand is great for my goldfish!
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually sand is not good for goldfish it wears at their mouth and gills
>>
>>I do not believe that to be true. My sand says its small rounded and
>>safe for the most delicate and small sand sifters. This saying, "sand is
>>not safe" is only an opinion. and not mine. All sand is not alike even
>>though some people here wants to think so. I think this is the only NG
>>that I have ever read that mantra. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion
>>and I always refer to more than one source.
>>
>>Kay
>
>
> Goldfish are not small sifters like tropicals, who only up small amounts
> (releasing less anerobic pockets). Ignore it if you like.
> Check out www.goldfishparadise.com or www.kokosgoldfish.com and see
> what they think. Research is your friend.

[[email protected]]

liquid calcium is great. When the local walmart stopped carrying the dolomitic
limestone Jo Ann used she switched to some kind of a liquid calcium too. not sure
what brand. Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>I use the Liquid Calcium in my apple Snail only tanks to help keep thier
>shell healthy. I do have minnows in there and they are not bothered by
>it. They come in so many colors now. I have Gold, Ivory, Purple, Blue,
>Brown. There is now blue striped and Pink. So I guess this does not
>apply to goldfish. But the sand is great for my goldfish!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

if they are talking about marine fish, of course. Jo Ann Burke was strictly Goldfish
and Koi for almost 30 years (she retired recently). Over the years of selling large,
expensive imported fancy GF she dealt with a lot of people all over the U.S. and even
in other countries. Water conditions are extremely different in different parts of
the country and what she came up with were "the essentials" for keeping this big
fancy GF. The essentials include recommendations on what kind of products work the
best and which ones have shown some problems in some areas of the U.S. So one of the
things she does not recommend is marine salts and products for use with goldfish.
Ingrid

Jason Dale > wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:27:17 GMT, wrote:
>
>>which experts? Jo Ann Burke is an expert. She does not recommend marine products
>>for freshwater fish. Ingrid
>
>Well the web sites I mentioned plus the following
>http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/termsandtables/g/crushedcoral.htm
>
>, plus Dr Neville Carrington of Interpet, Peter Hunnam. Annabel Milne,
>Peter Stebbing all authors of books which cover hardness and how to
>increase it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Jason Dale]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:46:16 GMT, wrote:

>if they are talking about marine fish, of course. Jo Ann Burke was strictly Goldfish
>and Koi for almost 30 years (she retired recently). Over the years of selling large,
>expensive imported fancy GF she dealt with a lot of people all over the U.S. and even
>in other countries. Water conditions are extremely different in different parts of
>the country and what she came up with were "the essentials" for keeping this big
>fancy GF. The essentials include recommendations on what kind of products work the
>best and which ones have shown some problems in some areas of the U.S. So one of the
>things she does not recommend is marine salts and products for use with goldfish.
>Ingrid

No Ingrid you still haven't got it. You don't seem to be reading
anything. These books and web sites are talking about using Calcium
Carbonate to increase the GH and KH as well as the pH of freshwater
tanks. Please read the web sites, rather than just saying crushed
coral is only marine. Crushed Coral is basically Calcium Carbonate and
Calcium Carbonate occurs in freshwater. Calcium Carbonate isn't a
marine salt as it has nothing to do with salinity.

Check other newsgroups, in fact put up a post saying I have a
freshwater tank with a low pH and low hardness and you'll get a flood
of people recommending using crushed coral in your filter to fix it.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Jason,

Hey you are getting the idea. It is either her way or
the highway. She very seldom listens to anyone unless
you have a doctorate degree and a handful of digraphs
behind your name.

I have used crushed coral and calcium carbonate
tablets, which is a good way to go if you can get them
cheap, but the interesting thing about the calcium
carbonate tablets is they are a lot of times made out
of crush oyster shells. So I cut out the middle man
and buy oyster shell chicken grit. It works great.

Lots of luck in your endeavors.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------
Jason Dale wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:46:16 GMT, wrote:
>
>
>>if they are talking about marine fish, of course. Jo Ann Burke was strictly Goldfish
>>and Koi for almost 30 years (she retired recently). Over the years of selling large,
>>expensive imported fancy GF she dealt with a lot of people all over the U.S. and even
>>in other countries. Water conditions are extremely different in different parts of
>>the country and what she came up with were "the essentials" for keeping this big
>>fancy GF. The essentials include recommendations on what kind of products work the
>>best and which ones have shown some problems in some areas of the U.S. So one of the
>>things she does not recommend is marine salts and products for use with goldfish.
>>Ingrid
>
>
> No Ingrid you still haven't got it. You don't seem to be reading
> anything. These books and web sites are talking about using Calcium
> Carbonate to increase the GH and KH as well as the pH of freshwater
> tanks. Please read the web sites, rather than just saying crushed
> coral is only marine. Crushed Coral is basically Calcium Carbonate and
> Calcium Carbonate occurs in freshwater. Calcium Carbonate isn't a
> marine salt as it has nothing to do with salinity.
>
> Check other newsgroups, in fact put up a post saying I have a
> freshwater tank with a low pH and low hardness and you'll get a flood
> of people recommending using crushed coral in your filter to fix it.

[Kodiak]

Wow!, never thought i could stirr up such a long thread.
Thanks for all the input folks...
....Kodiak

"Jason Dale" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:46:16 GMT, wrote:
>
> >if they are talking about marine fish, of course. Jo Ann Burke was
strictly Goldfish
> >and Koi for almost 30 years (she retired recently). Over the years of
selling large,
> >expensive imported fancy GF she dealt with a lot of people all over the
U.S. and even
> >in other countries. Water conditions are extremely different in
different parts of
> >the country and what she came up with were "the essentials" for keeping
this big
> >fancy GF. The essentials include recommendations on what kind of
products work the
> >best and which ones have shown some problems in some areas of the U.S.
So one of the
> >things she does not recommend is marine salts and products for use with
goldfish.
> >Ingrid
>
> No Ingrid you still haven't got it. You don't seem to be reading
> anything. These books and web sites are talking about using Calcium
> Carbonate to increase the GH and KH as well as the pH of freshwater
> tanks. Please read the web sites, rather than just saying crushed
> coral is only marine. Crushed Coral is basically Calcium Carbonate and
> Calcium Carbonate occurs in freshwater. Calcium Carbonate isn't a
> marine salt as it has nothing to do with salinity.
>
> Check other newsgroups, in fact put up a post saying I have a
> freshwater tank with a low pH and low hardness and you'll get a flood
> of people recommending using crushed coral in your filter to fix it.

[Jason Dale]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:44:43 -0500, "Tom L. La Bron"
> wrote:

Hi Tom,

>Hey you are getting the idea. It is either her way or
>the highway. She very seldom listens to anyone unless
>you have a doctorate degree and a handful of digraphs
>behind your name.

LOL.

>I have used crushed coral and calcium carbonate
>tablets, which is a good way to go if you can get them
>cheap, but the interesting thing about the calcium
>carbonate tablets is they are a lot of times made out
>of crush oyster shells. So I cut out the middle man
>and buy oyster shell chicken grit. It works great.

I got my crushed coral for just less than £1/kilo which is less than
$1.87/kilo. As regards Oyster Shells I've read some where on my web
travels that it's very high in calcium carbonate and makes an
excellent buffer. Myself I'll stick with crushed coral as it's
available at most LFS and is specifically designed for aquaria use, so
I don't have to do much pondering as it's more of a known quantity :).

>Lots of luck in your endeavors.

Thanks my livebearer tank with guppies and platies is doing very well.
It is the platies that caused the sudden interest in water chemistry
as I got some in Feb/Mar and after a few days they died, a quick read
around made it clear they had to have hard/alkaline water and I
realised my soft water was what had caused their demise.

This was a shock as even though I've had fish for 15 years to be
honest I've never worried about water chemistry as quite a few books
say not to worry about it and in general I've got away without
worrying about it. Anyway to cut a long story short I went on a
massive research quest and found the very good page at
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html among others.

Still learning as I've also setup the tank as a heavily planted tank
and have a feeling may need some laterite and also upping the pH and
KH in the tank has also had effects on the plants, now sticking with
Amazon Sword and Crytocorynes as they are coping well in the higher
hardness and pH water.

BTW I have also read for example at
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml that
biological filtration works better at a pH above 7. Anyway
www.skepicalaquarist.com is a very good web site and it's where I
learnt that Vallisneria and Sagittaria don't get on together as
plants.

[Jason Dale]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:45:58 -0400, "Kodiak" >
wrote:

>Wow!, never thought i could stirr up such a long thread.
>Thanks for all the input folks...

Your welcome :).

[Tom L. La Bron]

Jason,

I have never had a problem with crypts and hard water,
but have never had any luck with Amazon swords in hard
water unless the variety you get in the UK is different
that what is offered here in the general in the US.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------
Jason Dale wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:44:43 -0500, "Tom L. La Bron"
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
>
>>Hey you are getting the idea. It is either her way or
>>the highway. She very seldom listens to anyone unless
>>you have a doctorate degree and a handful of digraphs
>>behind your name.
>
>
> LOL.
>
>
>>I have used crushed coral and calcium carbonate
>>tablets, which is a good way to go if you can get them
>>cheap, but the interesting thing about the calcium
>>carbonate tablets is they are a lot of times made out
>>of crush oyster shells. So I cut out the middle man
>>and buy oyster shell chicken grit. It works great.
>
>
> I got my crushed coral for just less than £1/kilo which is less than
> $1.87/kilo. As regards Oyster Shells I've read some where on my web
> travels that it's very high in calcium carbonate and makes an
> excellent buffer. Myself I'll stick with crushed coral as it's
> available at most LFS and is specifically designed for aquaria use, so
> I don't have to do much pondering as it's more of a known quantity :).
>
>
>>Lots of luck in your endeavors.
>
>
> Thanks my livebearer tank with guppies and platies is doing very well.
> It is the platies that caused the sudden interest in water chemistry
> as I got some in Feb/Mar and after a few days they died, a quick read
> around made it clear they had to have hard/alkaline water and I
> realised my soft water was what had caused their demise.
>
> This was a shock as even though I've had fish for 15 years to be
> honest I've never worried about water chemistry as quite a few books
> say not to worry about it and in general I've got away without
> worrying about it. Anyway to cut a long story short I went on a
> massive research quest and found the very good page at
> http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html among others.
>
> Still learning as I've also setup the tank as a heavily planted tank
> and have a feeling may need some laterite and also upping the pH and
> KH in the tank has also had effects on the plants, now sticking with
> Amazon Sword and Crytocorynes as they are coping well in the higher
> hardness and pH water.
>
> BTW I have also read for example at
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml that
> biological filtration works better at a pH above 7. Anyway
> www.skepicalaquarist.com is a very good web site and it's where I
> learnt that Vallisneria and Sagittaria don't get on together as
> plants.

[Jason Dale]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:36:23 -0500, "Tom L. La Bron"
> wrote:

>I have never had a problem with crypts and hard water,
>but have never had any luck with Amazon swords in hard
>water unless the variety you get in the UK is different
>that what is offered here in the general in the US.

I haven't had the Amazon Sword that long, but the 14 specimens all
over a foot tall when bought are growing at the rate of about a leaf
every 2 days, so they are doing well so far. This doesn't mean that
they will do well forever though, but I did get them on reading in an
Interpet book on aquatic plants that Amazon Swords were popular due to
their high tolerance of hard water which is also echoed at
http://www.tropica.com.

Anyway been learning an awful lot this year and have a feeling I've
still a lot to learn in practice about growing aquatic plants.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Jason,

Maybe I will look into Amazon Swords again. Do you
know what species are the ones that you have? Do your
Goldfish bother them? That is the other problem.
Goldfish are not suppose to bother Java Fern, but in
one of my tubs this winter last the Goldfish shredded
the plants.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------Jason Dale wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:36:23 -0500, "Tom L. La Bron"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I have never had a problem with crypts and hard water,
>>but have never had any luck with Amazon swords in hard
>>water unless the variety you get in the UK is different
>>that what is offered here in the general in the US.
>
>
> I haven't had the Amazon Sword that long, but the 14 specimens all
> over a foot tall when bought are growing at the rate of about a leaf
> every 2 days, so they are doing well so far. This doesn't mean that
> they will do well forever though, but I did get them on reading in an
> Interpet book on aquatic plants that Amazon Swords were popular due to
> their high tolerance of hard water which is also echoed at
> http://www.tropica.com.
>
> Anyway been learning an awful lot this year and have a feeling I've
> still a lot to learn in practice about growing aquatic plants.

[Jason Dale]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:14:15 -0500, "Tom L. La Bron"
> wrote:

>Maybe I will look into Amazon Swords again. Do you
>know what species are the ones that you have? Do your
>Goldfish bother them? That is the other problem.
>Goldfish are not suppose to bother Java Fern, but in
>one of my tubs this winter last the Goldfish shredded
>the plants.

The species I have I am fairly sure is the standard Echinodorus
bleheri. With my Amazon Swords I'm not using any fertiliser at the
moment, but I believe that they have high iron requirements and this
may have caused you problems and may cause me some in the future, so
am looking into fertilisers.

As I've said aquatic plants are a new thing for me this year, mainly
as in the past 18 years I've kept big fish like Goldfish, Koi and
Oscars all known to be disruptive in a planted tank. This year have
got into livebearers which are small and to provide fry cover need
plants unless the female is moved to a breeding trap and this seems to
be detrimental as both female guppies I've transferred to a breeding
trap have died shortly after due to the stress.

I don't have any Goldfish at the moment, but was thinking about
getting some for snail control (since decided against), this is also
related to why your Java Fern got shredded as Goldfish will try to eat
or pull at anything that will fit into their mouths.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >Check out www.goldfishparadise.com or www.kokosgoldfish.com and see
> >what they think. Research is your friend.
>
> There is a research paper on gills, look for it and tell your pals what you
> learned.

There is research papers on anerobic bacterial growth - look for it and tell
your pals what you learned too.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >> Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?
> >
> >Goldfish in tanks are yes
>
> I thought so. The facts will prove you have erroneous information, however, I
> think you just go with the flow of opinion and put forward ideas that sound
> plausible.
> Sand without resistance will not abrade. Gills are designed by mother nature to
> deal with sand. I have personal experience with sand and goldfish and can state
> 100% there is no problem. Sand also has nothing to do with anaerobic bacteria,
> it's a fact of life in aqua and not specific to sand. Sand bottoms have
> benefits that include better nitrification, a cleaner bottom and less
> environmental stress on the fish. Stress being the major factor in health
> issues makes sand a desirable feature.

Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims, then we'll call it a
day.

[Kay]

You have not shown me proof of the sand irritation, the sand I use. You
gave links to places that does not say anything, that last link she or
he, uses sand.

Kay

> BErney1014 wrote:
>
>>>>Are you saying goldfish are an exception to the fish in the real world?
>>>
>>>Goldfish in tanks are yes
>>
>>I thought so. The facts will prove you have erroneous information, however, I
>>think you just go with the flow of opinion and put forward ideas that sound
>>plausible.
>>Sand without resistance will not abrade. Gills are designed by mother nature to
>>deal with sand. I have personal experience with sand and goldfish and can state
>>100% there is no problem. Sand also has nothing to do with anaerobic bacteria,
>>it's a fact of life in aqua and not specific to sand. Sand bottoms have
>>benefits that include better nitrification, a cleaner bottom and less
>>environmental stress on the fish. Stress being the major factor in health
>>issues makes sand a desirable feature.
>
>
> Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims, then we'll call it a
> day.

[BErney1014]

>Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims,

I never doubted....

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims,
>
> I never doubted....

Well there is proof about anaerobic bacteria developing in sand and
that is not a good thing!

[Tom L. La Bron]

Yes Geezer,

You can get anaerobic bacteria in sand and gravel, but
it is usually only if you are a poor house keeper of
your aquarium environment. I have used UGF's for years
and if the edges don't get vacuumed, there is a
possibility of anaerobic bacteria forming in that area,
or if you dump a container of flake food or what ever
in your tank and don't get it clean out right away. Of
course, anaerobic bacteria is possible, but in the
operation of a clean, cleaned, and well keep aquarium
it is usually non existent.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------
Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> BErney1014 wrote:
>
>>>Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims,
>>
>>I never doubted....
>
>
> Well there is proof about anaerobic bacteria developing in sand and
> that is not a good thing!

[BErney1014]

>> >Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims,
>>
>> I never doubted....
>
>Well there is proof about anaerobic bacteria developing in sand and
>that is not a good thing!

You seem to ignore nature and how things work. I'm not going to spoon feed you.
If you want to know something, look it up. You were the person who remarked
that research is your friend. Stop quacking and start reading.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >> >Show me your proof, I have none to back up my claims,
> >>
> >> I never doubted....
> >
> >Well there is proof about anaerobic bacteria developing in sand and
> >that is not a good thing!
>
> You seem to ignore nature and how things work. I'm not going to spoon feed you.
> If you want to know something, look it up. You were the person who remarked
> that research is your friend. Stop quacking and start reading.

Berney,

yeah right! I know what I'm talking about.
If you dont agree then fine.