Just another newbie question

[Tom E.]

I was into freshwater tanks a few years back, and tried salt water
once with two damsels in a 10 gallon tank. They didn't make
it:-(. I was told that the chemistry of salt water is too delicate
for such small self-contained tanks. I was thinking of getting
another setup with a couple of clowns and damsels (small fish).
What is the minimum tank size? Would 20 or 29 gallons do?
Also, is an enemone required for clowns to be happy??
Thanks,
Tom (I want to do this right, or not at all)

[Tom E.]

"rich" > wrote in message
news:76ZYa.101880$o%2.45345@sccrnsc02...
> Hey Tom,
> Its not that the chemistry is that complicated in a salt fish only tank,
> its that in a small tank, when things start to go wrong, they go wrong
> quickly with little time to react or to let your fish slowly get used to
the
> changes.
> Honestly if you want to try again at a salt tank, I would suggest at least
a
> tank with 36" in length. This does a little more for you. It gives you
> some more gallons (diluting whatever is going wrong) and it gives you more
> surface area for your undergravel filter(which is what im assuming you
will
> be running), hence more bacteria to help stabilize ammonia and nitrite.
if
> your worried about the number of gallons(i.e. because of apartment rules
or
> something like that) then I would go with a 20 long. Its in the same foot
> print as a 29. While less water(which means testing more often), it has
more
> surface area than the 29(helps reduce levels quicker).
>
> as far as the fish, cycle only with the damsels and don't add the clowns
> until the tank is good and stable (meaning you've seen both ammonia and
> nitrite peak and drop to 0).
> And an anemone is not required to keep your clown happy and healthy. A
good
> diet and clean water will do that.
>
>
> I hope this helps a bit.

Thanks. So you say a 20 gallon long? OK, but why an undergravel filter? I
can surmise from your post that this
filter leaves bacteria in the tank to stablilize ammonia rather
than sucking it out to an exterior filter. I had an undergravel
filter on my 10 gallon fresh tank years ago, and while it worked
amazingly well, when it was all said and done there was a TON
of debree under it. What are the methods and rules of cleaning
that out?
Thanks,
Tom

[rich]

Hey Tom,
Its not that the chemistry is that complicated in a salt fish only tank,
its that in a small tank, when things start to go wrong, they go wrong
quickly with little time to react or to let your fish slowly get used to the
changes.
Honestly if you want to try again at a salt tank, I would suggest at least a
tank with 36" in length. This does a little more for you. It gives you
some more gallons (diluting whatever is going wrong) and it gives you more
surface area for your undergravel filter(which is what im assuming you will
be running), hence more bacteria to help stabilize ammonia and nitrite. if
your worried about the number of gallons(i.e. because of apartment rules or
something like that) then I would go with a 20 long. Its in the same foot
print as a 29. While less water(which means testing more often), it has more
surface area than the 29(helps reduce levels quicker).

as far as the fish, cycle only with the damsels and don't add the clowns
until the tank is good and stable (meaning you've seen both ammonia and
nitrite peak and drop to 0).
And an anemone is not required to keep your clown happy and healthy. A good
diet and clean water will do that.


I hope this helps a bit.

-Rich


===============================================
Come check out the coral trading center and LFS database
at http://www.dets.com
===============================================



"Tom E." > wrote in message
...
> I was into freshwater tanks a few years back, and tried salt water
> once with two damsels in a 10 gallon tank. They didn't make
> it:-(. I was told that the chemistry of salt water is too delicate
> for such small self-contained tanks. I was thinking of getting
> another setup with a couple of clowns and damsels (small fish).
> What is the minimum tank size? Would 20 or 29 gallons do?
> Also, is an enemone required for clowns to be happy??
> Thanks,
> Tom (I want to do this right, or not at all)
>
>

[rich]

I guess I need to clarify a statement in regards to the 20L and 29. That
should state more surface area per gallon. Not just more surface area.

Sorry for the confusion.


--
===============================================
Come check out the coral trading center and LFS database
at http://www.dets.com
===============================================


"rich" > wrote in message
news:76ZYa.101880$o%2.45345@sccrnsc02...
> Hey Tom,
> Its not that the chemistry is that complicated in a salt fish only tank,
> its that in a small tank, when things start to go wrong, they go wrong
> quickly with little time to react or to let your fish slowly get used to
the
> changes.
> Honestly if you want to try again at a salt tank, I would suggest at least
a
> tank with 36" in length. This does a little more for you. It gives you
> some more gallons (diluting whatever is going wrong) and it gives you more
> surface area for your undergravel filter(which is what im assuming you
will
> be running), hence more bacteria to help stabilize ammonia and nitrite.
if
> your worried about the number of gallons(i.e. because of apartment rules
or
> something like that) then I would go with a 20 long. Its in the same foot
> print as a 29. While less water(which means testing more often), it has
more
> surface area than the 29(helps reduce levels quicker).
>
> as far as the fish, cycle only with the damsels and don't add the clowns
> until the tank is good and stable (meaning you've seen both ammonia and
> nitrite peak and drop to 0).
> And an anemone is not required to keep your clown happy and healthy. A
good
> diet and clean water will do that.
>
>
> I hope this helps a bit.
>
> -Rich
>
>
> ===============================================
> Come check out the coral trading center and LFS database
> at http://www.dets.com
> ===============================================
>
>
>
> "Tom E." > wrote in message
> ...
> > I was into freshwater tanks a few years back, and tried salt water
> > once with two damsels in a 10 gallon tank. They didn't make
> > it:-(. I was told that the chemistry of salt water is too delicate
> > for such small self-contained tanks. I was thinking of getting
> > another setup with a couple of clowns and damsels (small fish).
> > What is the minimum tank size? Would 20 or 29 gallons do?
> > Also, is an enemone required for clowns to be happy??
> > Thanks,
> > Tom (I want to do this right, or not at all)
> >
> >
>
>

[Def Lizard]

Just another newbie question

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.misc Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2003, 6:00pm (PDT+1)
From: (Tom=A0E.)
I was into freshwater tanks a few years back, and tried salt water once
with two damsels in a 10 gallon tank. They didn't make it:-(. I was told
that the chemistry of salt water is too delicate for such small
self-contained tanks. I was thinking of getting another setup with a
couple of clowns and damsels (small fish). What is the minimum tank
size? Would 20 or 29 gallons do? Also, is an enemone required for clowns
to be happy?? Thanks,
Tom (I want to do this right, or not at all)
************************************************** *
Tom: For a better grasp of what it takes for keeping a SW tank, read my
web-site, written just for questions like yours. HTH


http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John =

[rich]

I recommend undergravels for beginners to stay with the K.I.S.S. method.
I'm definitely not saying that you cant keep a very nice tank with external
canister filters such as the Fluval,Ehiem, etc. but they add complication to
an already complicated set of learning requirements.
2 examples I can think of quickly off the top of my head are:
1. something happens and the filter is now pumping water onto the floor
rather than back into the tank.
2. when cleaning the filter, for a beginner its fairly easy to forget to
submerge the "bio" section of the basket assembly back in some tank water,
and if its out too long (albeit a few hours) you have to re-cycle your
tank. And to the more delicate species of fish that have been added because
the tank was cycled and stable, this will be fatal.
Please forgive me if this sounds belittling, it is definitely not my intent.
I'm just not sure your of your experience level.
I work at a pet store, and often times I see people that have kept
freshwater tanks for years. They come in stating that they want to convert
to a salt tank. With a little further investigation I find out that they
don't know the most basic of concepts, like the nitrogen cycle. I suppose
this is due to the simplicity of keeping tropical freshwater fish. If you
look at more specialized freshwater fish keepers, such as those with discus,
or extreme planted tanks, they do indeed know allot about what is actually
happening inside their tank, and can therefore take that knowledge and apply
it much easier to salt setups.


Its common practice not to do anything with the "grunge" under the
undergravel. You can reduce the accumulation by making sure that you don't
feed to much, and remove dead items from the tank as quickly as possible.



> Thanks. So you say a 20 gallon long? OK, but why an undergravel filter?
I
> can surmise from your post that this
> filter leaves bacteria in the tank to stablilize ammonia rather
> than sucking it out to an exterior filter. I had an undergravel
> filter on my 10 gallon fresh tank years ago, and while it worked
> amazingly well, when it was all said and done there was a TON
> of debree under it. What are the methods and rules of cleaning
> that out?
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>