Cycling without damsels OR live rock?

[Tom E.]

Is this possible? It would seem all I would need is
something biological to drop in the tank. Some people
here have managed to turn me off of using damsels to
cycle, and live rock for a 29 gallon tank would cost
150 dollars. Too damn much for a couple of small
boulders. By the way, I found what has got to be one of
Americas best aquaria stores right here in Phx Arizona
called "Ocean Bottom". They had fish in there that I didn't
even know existed. Mostly fresh water though. They had
thousand gallon tanks in there with ludicrously big fish.
It was better than Sea World:-)
Tom

[Tom E.]

"Greg Bunch" > wrote in message
...
> There is definitely no need to use fish to cycle a new tank! It is an
> unnecessary and inhumane method, increasingly frowned upon by serious
> aquarists.
>
> I successfully used household ammonia to cycle a brand-new 5-gallon
> aquarium. It is easy to do so, and the cost is almost zero.
>
From your site, it looks like I'll need somebody elses used
filter to establish the bacteria?? I'm trying for a 20 or 29
gallon setup. Can you explain in inexpensive lehmans terms
what I should do here? Thanks,
Tom
Tom

[Greg Bunch]

There is definitely no need to use fish to cycle a new tank! It is an
unnecessary and inhumane method, increasingly frowned upon by serious
aquarists.

I successfully used household ammonia to cycle a brand-new 5-gallon
aquarium. It is easy to do so, and the cost is almost zero.

WIth this method, you can immediately take the ammonia up to lethal levels
far past what any fish could survive. As a result, the bacteria develop and
reproduce very quickly, and in a much shorter time, you'll have a far
stronger colony capable of supporting a robust population of desirable fish.

When I did it, after only 14 days the bacterial colony in that little
5-gallon tank was fully metabolizing 3ML of household ammonia each day in
about 11 hours. I was very conservative, and carefuly monitored nitrite
levels over the next 8 days, while adding daily 1ML maintenance doses of
ammonia.

For the full story, with pictures and references, take a look at:
http://members.cox.net/gbundersea/aquaria/5gallon/cycling.htm

Also see my Jensalt sump horror story site:
http://members.cox.net/~gbundersea/aquaria/badsumps/badsumps.htm

--

Greg Bunch Creator of the MXTENDER Optical
gbundersea AT cox DOT net Strobe Cable System for the Sea&Sea
http://www.gbundersea.com MX-10 and the Save-A-Lens Kit
for MX-10 and Motormarine

"Tom E." > wrote in message
...
> Is this possible? It would seem all I would need is
> something biological to drop in the tank. Some people
> here have managed to turn me off of using damsels to
> cycle, and live rock for a 29 gallon tank would cost
> 150 dollars. Too damn much for a couple of small
> boulders. By the way, I found what has got to be one of
> Americas best aquaria stores right here in Phx Arizona
> called "Ocean Bottom". They had fish in there that I didn't
> even know existed. Mostly fresh water though. They had
> thousand gallon tanks in there with ludicrously big fish.
> It was better than Sea World:-)
> Tom
>
>

[Dinky]

"Tom E." > wrote in message
...
>
>
> If adding ammonia and bacteria is so easy, why is there no bacteria
cultures
> available at the store? Or is there?
> Tom
>

There are a couple products that claim to be just that, but I've followed a
couple non-scientific tests, and the results were inconclusive.

[Greg Bunch]

Tom,

Having access to someone else's (disease-free) filter is a great way to
jump-start the bacteria. It's not absolutely necessary, but it does help a
lot. As for off-the-shelf bacteria, I added some to my fishless cycle, but I
agree with Dinky and the majority of aquarists that their effectiveness is
inconclusive. However, they're inexpensive, and won't hurt.

Carefully read these articles on fishless cycling, as well as my site:

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html (courtesy of Dinky)
http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html

These tell you pretty much everything you need to know.

The key is to find clear ammonia, which contains only ammonia and water,
with no dyes, perfumes, or surfactants. You may, as I did, have to visit
several grocery/hardware stores before you find it, but you will.

You can probably locate someone locally who would be glad to donate some
used filter floss, maybe some gravel, etc. I've found almost all online
aquarists to be very friendly and eager to help others.

For great online aquaria information, and to find someone close to you who
might help, check out the forums on some of my favorite sites:

www.reefs.org
www.aquariacentral.com
www.reefcentral.com
http://wetwebfotos.com/talk/

You'll find a ton of knowledge on these forums. I've found them to be very
helpful, and often amazingly so.

There are usually forums set up specifically for newbies, swapping, and
local clubs. All of these sites have plenty of good help available, and are
very easy to use.

A few short posts on these forums (as well as the newgroup) should quickly
put you in touch with some local folks. I don't think you'll have much
trouble finding someone who will let you have some sources of bacteria.

I hope this helped! Good luck, and be sure to post your experiences on the
newgroup and elsewhere.

Don't miss my Jensalt sump horror story site:
http://members.cox.net/~gbundersea/aquaria/badsumps/badsumps.htm

--

Greg Bunch Creator of the MXTENDER Optical
gbundersea AT cox DOT net Strobe Cable System for the Sea&Sea
http://www.gbundersea.com MX-10 and the Save-A-Lens Kit
for MX-10 and Motormarine





"Tom E." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Greg Bunch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There is definitely no need to use fish to cycle a new tank! It is an
> > unnecessary and inhumane method, increasingly frowned upon by serious
> > aquarists.
> >
> > I successfully used household ammonia to cycle a brand-new 5-gallon
> > aquarium. It is easy to do so, and the cost is almost zero.
> >
> From your site, it looks like I'll need somebody elses used
> filter to establish the bacteria?? I'm trying for a 20 or 29
> gallon setup. Can you explain in inexpensive lehmans terms
> what I should do here? Thanks,
> Tom
> Tom
>
>

[Adira]

Tom E. wrote:

> Is this possible? It would seem all I would need is
> something biological to drop in the tank. Some people
> here have managed to turn me off of using damsels to
> cycle, and live rock for a 29 gallon tank would cost
> 150 dollars. Too damn much for a couple of small
> boulders. By the way, I found what has got to be one of
> Americas best aquaria stores right here in Phx Arizona
> called "Ocean Bottom". They had fish in there that I didn't
> even know existed. Mostly fresh water though. They had
> thousand gallon tanks in there with ludicrously big fish.
> It was better than Sea World:-)
> Tom
>
>
>

I have used fish to cycle a tank. If you monitor your levels no harm
will come to the fish.

--
Remember, wherever you go, there you are.

[Greg Bunch]

"Adira" > wrote in message
99...
> I have used fish to cycle a tank. If you monitor your levels no harm
> will come to the fish.

I respectfully disagree. Since all that is needed is a source of ammonia, be
it household ammonia, ammonium chloride, decaying shrimp, or live rock,
there is no reason whatsoever to use a live animal. Even if a fish is
inexpensive, it is unethical and inhumane to expose it to the deadly poison
of ammonia, given the many simple and economical alternatives. Besides, it's
hard to beat the cost of a 99-cent bottle of ammonia!

Fish used for cycling often die. Even if they survive, and appear unharmed
afterwards, they aren't. Ammonia causes irreversible gill damage, thus
permanently injuring the fish and shortening its life span.

I'm not a PETA activist or anything, it's just that wasting or injuring an
animal like this is totally unnecessary. The idea that doing so is required
for tank cycling went by the wayside long ago. There's a lot of information
out there on fishless cycling, and all serious aquarists now use some
variation of such methods.

For my own firsthand account of successful fishless cycling, with pictures
and references, take a look at:
http://members.cox.net/gbundersea/aquaria/5gallon/cycling.htm

Also see my Jensalt sump horror story site:
http://members.cox.net/~gbundersea/aquaria/badsumps/badsumps.htm

--

Greg Bunch Creator of the MXTENDER Optical
gbundersea AT cox DOT net Strobe Cable System for the Sea&Sea
http://www.gbundersea.com MX-10 and the Save-A-Lens Kit
for MX-10 and Motormarine

[Jandtplus3]

Guys, I'm glad that this thread is out there. I've always used ammonia to
cycle my 72g tank with no problem. I use 10ml of ammonia each day for 10 days
then drop down to every other day. After 3 weeks I was able to fully stock my
tank with no problems and had no dead fish for months. I could have probably
stocked the tank earlier, but I wanted to make sure that there was sufficient
bacteria.

[Greg Bunch]

"Jandtplus3" > wrote in message
...
> Guys, I'm glad that this thread is out there. I've always used ammonia to
> cycle my 72g tank with no problem. I use 10ml of ammonia each day for 10
days
> then drop down to every other day. After 3 weeks I was able to fully
stock my
> tank with no problems and had no dead fish for months. I could have
probably
> stocked the tank earlier, but I wanted to make sure that there was
sufficient
> bacteria.

Very similar technique, time frame, and results I experienced with my
fishless cycle. Glad to hear it!

--

For the full story of my cycling experience, with pictures and references,
take a look at:
http://members.cox.net/gbundersea/aquaria/5gallon/cycling.htm

Also see my Jensalt sump horror story site:
http://members.cox.net/~gbundersea/aquaria/badsumps/badsumps.htm

--

Greg Bunch Creator of the MXTENDER Optical
gbundersea AT cox DOT net Strobe Cable System for the Sea&Sea
http://www.gbundersea.com MX-10 and the Save-A-Lens Kit
for MX-10 and Motormarine

[Tom E.]

"Jandtplus3" > wrote in message
...
> Guys, I'm glad that this thread is out there. I've always used ammonia to
> cycle my 72g tank with no problem. I use 10ml of ammonia each day for 10
days
> then drop down to every other day. After 3 weeks I was able to fully
stock my
> tank with no problems and had no dead fish for months. I could have
probably
> stocked the tank earlier, but I wanted to make sure that there was
sufficient
> bacteria.

Where did the bacteria come from???

And why is ammonia added in the process?
I thought the ammonia was initially created by
the sewage (recalling my fish cycling
experience)

Tom
(fishless cycling is CONFUSING!!!!!)

[Tom E.]

"SG" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Tom E. wrote:
> >
> >Where did the bacteria come from???
>
> It is in the air.
>
> >And why is ammonia added in the process?
>
> The "Cycle" is the process where bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite,
> and then to nitrate. Tanks with a plenum or deep sand bed go furthure
> and convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bacteria need a source of
> ammonia to eat. Pure ammonia, decaying shrimp, live rock die off, or a
> live fish are all sources of ammonia.
>
> Fishless cycling is the smart way to cycle a tank.

Thanks. Lets say I have a 20 gallon tank with salt water and
crushed coral on the bed. Do I use a filter during the cycling
process, or just let it mellow?
Tom

[SG]

In article >, Tom E. wrote:
>
>Where did the bacteria come from???

It is in the air.

>And why is ammonia added in the process?

The "Cycle" is the process where bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite,
and then to nitrate. Tanks with a plenum or deep sand bed go furthure
and convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bacteria need a source of
ammonia to eat. Pure ammonia, decaying shrimp, live rock die off, or a
live fish are all sources of ammonia.

Fishless cycling is the smart way to cycle a tank.

[SG]

In article >, Tom E. wrote:
>
>Thanks. Lets say I have a 20 gallon tank with salt water and
>crushed coral on the bed. Do I use a filter during the cycling
>process, or just let it mellow?

Your entire tank should be running while cycling. The bacteria live in
whatever filter you are going to use. Most filters are a place for
bacteria to live, not a thing to remove junk from the water. With that
in mind filter media should be cleaned gently and only when needed.

[cwmr]

for what its worth, i always pee in a new tank
i know it sounds gross and i don't eat asparagus the night before but
truthfully using fish to cycle always sounded like an extra burden on the
livestock

and no not a full bladder boy i'm drunk lets try fill it to the top type of
pee

[Mike D.]

Personally, I believe this cycling stuff is a lot of hullabaloo. If you
start with any type of sturdy species (trigger, tang, lionfish, damsel) and
add fish slowly, and use charcoal, the tank should be able to age on it's
own. For example, if you have a 75 gallon tank, and you add a tang, a
trigger, and a lionfish and a damsel, and have a good filter, fresh
charcoal, and feed sparingly for the first weeks, you shouldn't have any
excessive spikes. That is just my opinion, and it is what I did in my 92
gallon tank, although I DID use damsels, as that's what I was told was best.
Mike.
"Tom E." > wrote in message
...
> Is this possible? It would seem all I would need is
> something biological to drop in the tank. Some people
> here have managed to turn me off of using damsels to
> cycle, and live rock for a 29 gallon tank would cost
> 150 dollars. Too damn much for a couple of small
> boulders. By the way, I found what has got to be one of
> Americas best aquaria stores right here in Phx Arizona
> called "Ocean Bottom". They had fish in there that I didn't
> even know existed. Mostly fresh water though. They had
> thousand gallon tanks in there with ludicrously big fish.
> It was better than Sea World:-)
> Tom
>
>

[Add Homonym]

Mike D. wrote:
> Personally, I believe this cycling stuff is a lot of hullabaloo. If you
> start with any type of sturdy species (trigger, tang, lionfish, damsel) and
> add fish slowly, and use charcoal, the tank should be able to age on it's
> own. For example, if you have a 75 gallon tank, and you add a tang, a
> trigger, and a lionfish and a damsel, and have a good filter, fresh
> charcoal, and feed sparingly for the first weeks, you shouldn't have any
> excessive spikes. That is just my opinion, and it is what I did in my 92
> gallon tank, although I DID use damsels, as that's what I was told was best.
> Mike.

One can always speed things along by asking LFS for a cup or two of gunk
out of one of their sumps...