Re: pond filter

[Iain Miller]

"ken" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
> charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
> careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
> not, what are the possible substitutes?
> Thanks for all your help.
> --

Charcoal briquets are just dust charcoal held together with some kind of
glue - personaally I think they make food taste funny so I never use them &
I certainly wouldn't put them in a pond filter - I would have thought they'd
disintegrate.

The easiest/cheapest thing to do is to get some of that black corrugated
hose they sell for pond pipework - about 1/2 or 3/4" dia should do. Chop it
up into pieces an inch or so long and stick them in the filter. All you are
looking for is as much surface area for bacteria to grow on as possible but
without making it so dense that the filter will clog. I've read of people
using chopped up drinking straws - but I think it would be quite a loabour
intensive thing to try & do!

I.

[Hal]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:55:03 GMT, ken >
wrote:

>I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
>charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
>careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
>not, what are the possible substitutes?
>Thanks for all your help.

A biofilter is simply a place for bacteria to grow on a surface. A
material that could be rinsed of algae and dead stuff would be more
practical. There are filters with broken clay pots, bio balls,
plastic pieces of a number of description that work well. Charcoal
and things that absorb ammonia worry me because some of those things
saturate and release the ammonia back into the pond under some
conditions.

Regards,

Hal

[BenignVanilla]

"ken" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
> charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
> careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
> not, what are the possible substitutes?
> Thanks for all your help.


I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
just sadist that like doing too much work.

BV.

tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know I
am kidding.

[RichToyBox]

BV,

Your VF is a combination bio-mechanical and veggie filter. The roots on the
plants act as strainers for the mechanical filtration, and they also act as
surfaces, along with the liner, any submerged rocks, etc. as a place for the
bacteria of the biological filtration. Then they also remove the nutrients
created by the bio filter. A nice large filter needs little cleaning, but
you do have plans to vacuum out the veggie filter once or twice a year,
don't you? It is a matter of size.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ken" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
> > charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
> > careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
> > not, what are the possible substitutes?
> > Thanks for all your help.
>
>
> I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
> suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
> VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
> just sadist that like doing too much work.
>
> BV.
>
> tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
> troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know
I
> am kidding.
>
>

[john rutz]

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "ken" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>
>>I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
>>charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
>>careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
>>not, what are the possible substitutes?
>>Thanks for all your help.
>
>
>
> I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
> suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
> VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
> just sadist that like doing too much work.
>
> BV.
>
> tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
> troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know I
> am kidding.
>
>


-- ok now we need another terminology thingy----- a bog without dirt
and with plants in pots is a veggie filter ,,, we did that one
a bog with mostly dirt is still a bog we left that alone
bio mechanical filters self explanatory

so now what do we call a container with filter media and plants ????





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[K30a]

If we want to get really technical a bog is a body of water through which no
water moves. The frog bog is a bog. And when Heidi goes tromping through it and
gets covered in bog mud --- oh-my-gawd, the smell is out of this world.
The mud and mulm that is caught in the mech/bio/veggie filter for the pond
smells river sweet when we clean it.


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/index.html

[MattR]

Iain Miller wrote:

> ... I've read of people
> using chopped up drinking straws - but I think it would be quite a loabour
> intensive thing to try & do!

I bought 25,000 straws for $35 and didn't chop them up. I alligned them
so the water went through them. It's working great now. I can now see
everyting in my pond whereas I used to only see down a few inches. But
it did take time and I'm still figuring out what I need to do. I added
bacteria starter but also added quite a bit of potash, epsom salts, and
iron. So I'm not sure what the deal is but I'm enjoying the clear water.

I tried a veggie filter before this and I just wasted a bunch of money
on plants that died. I'm not saying veggie filters don't work but I
think it's more complicated than what people say.

Matt

[BenignVanilla]

"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
news:qmhXa.41805$cF.15683@rwcrnsc53...
> BV,
>
> Your VF is a combination bio-mechanical and veggie filter. The roots on
the
> plants act as strainers for the mechanical filtration, and they also act
as
> surfaces, along with the liner, any submerged rocks, etc. as a place for
the
> bacteria of the biological filtration. Then they also remove the
nutrients
> created by the bio filter. A nice large filter needs little cleaning, but
> you do have plans to vacuum out the veggie filter once or twice a year,
> don't you? It is a matter of size.
<snip>

Shhh...Don't ruin my fun.

BV.

[MattR]

BenignVanilla wrote:

>>I tried a veggie filter before this and I just wasted a bunch of money
>
>
> I am interested to hear more about this, as my VF is my only filtration.

Long story short: I built a 1300 gallon pond with 2 small koi and 4
shibunkin late one year. Pea green soup. Year 2: VF sounds good so I
added a 10' long stream full of lava rock and pea gravel with the intent
of filling it with plants. It plugged up in less than a month. Tore it
all out. Bought 15-20 iris, a few taro, and some other cool looking
plants on line, a bunch of mesh pots, lots of hyacinth, put the whole
thing in the pond. Yellow hyacinth, yellow iris, one taro going crazy.
*Green* water. If people say you need to dip hyacinth in fertilizer tank
when they turn yellow how can they possibly be filtering the pond? Check
water, add iron and potash and epsom salts. Remember, 2 small koi and 4
shibunkin in 1300 gallons. Sad plants, sad hyacinth, green water.
Shibunkin have babies. Lots of babies. Good news is fish couldn't care
less about green water. Year 3: Added big air pump to circulate water
like you wouldn't believe (fun watching fish swim up stream!). No
change. Add lots of surface area in pond. Fish happy, water green, sick
plants. 40-50 small shibunkin. Went camping. Considered ripping out the
whole thing except the water fall sounded nice. Year 4: Shibunkin
getting mid size. Pulled air pump. Decide I need a lot of surface area
so I get 110 lbs of beany baby beads real cheap, along with a stock
tank. Beads clog with green slime in 2 weeks. Will be selling lots of
beads soon on ebay. Buy 25000 drinking straws cheap and add 16 sq ft of
quilt batting for a prefilter that I rinse out every other week. That
was May. Now, water so clear I can see fish shadows on the bottom of the
pond. The plants are growing this year, although not as much as I'd
like. And guess what? More babies.

So, biological filters do a lot more than remove ammonia. Full sun will
not cause algae. Plants need more than fish waste, epsom salts, and
potash to grow. Clear ponds need lots of nutrients in them if the plants
are to grow. Lots of filter designs on the net will plug. I don't know
what biological filters do and I don't know what pond plants need. I
suspect the filters have a byproduct that kills the algae and from there
added nutrients go to the plants, but I'm not sure. Pond plants (or a
VF) might *require* a large fish load or added fertilizer.

People may tell you what works for them but it might not work for you
because, I suspect, people don't know what's going on in their own
ponds. However, pond store people know less so I'd stick with rec.ponds,
and add a grain of salt.

Matt

[K30a]

MattR<< I don't know
what biological filters do >>

They turn fish waste into fertilizer for the plants *and* for the algae.

Our problem, we ornamental garden ponders, is that we usually get carried away.
More plants, more fish, more feeding the darling fish, more fertilizing for
more blooms. More, more, more!!

I think the pond rarely has time to catch up
before we add or substract something new. :-)




k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/index.html

[Anne Lurie]

Ingrid,

I think this is the first time I've ever seen your pond, and I really like
the set-up -- not to mention the totally cool hanging fish (copper?
terracotta?)

Is that a walkway between the pond & the house? (I couldn't quite tell from
the pix.)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





> wrote in message
...
> there is nothing complicated at all.. just get plants that will live in
the filter.
> they do need quite a bit of sun, but for a start water celery will grow
anywhere. I
> was advised to use different plants as they each pull out different
things.
> http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/ponds/8-2003.html
> there is one roll of filtering material in the first part of the veggie
filter, it
> and the whole filter gets cleaned in fall when I take most of the plants
in. the
> water celery is not taken in. I start a new bunch each year. it grows
like crazy.
> it is the big green batch in the lower right picture. Ingrid
>
> >I tried a veggie filter before this and I just wasted a bunch of money
> >on plants that died. I'm not saying veggie filters don't work but I
> >think it's more complicated than what people say.
> >
> >Matt
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[john rutz]

MattR wrote:
>
>
> BenignVanilla wrote:
>
>>> I tried a veggie filter before this and I just wasted a bunch of money
>>
>>
>>
>> I am interested to hear more about this, as my VF is my only filtration.
>
>
> Long story short: I built a 1300 gallon pond with 2 small koi and 4
> shibunkin late one year.
<sniped for brevity>

> People may tell you what works for them but it might not work for you
> because, I suspect, people don't know what's going on in their own
> ponds. However, pond store people know less so I'd stick with rec.ponds,
> and add a grain of salt.
>
> Matt
>

Mat
I have bought a bunch of plants on line and more here localy, on
line the y are much cheaper cost wise, yes

but they are also a lot smaller and have minimal roots, the ones I
have that survived (10 out of 100 plants) I had to put in the greenhouse
and nurse to growing size

I find its cheaper in the long run to pay more for a good healthy plant
that you can keep than the same for 10 or so that dont make it

my pennys worth
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[john rutz]

MattR wrote:
>
>
> john rutz wrote:
>
>> Mat
>> I have bought a bunch of plants on line and more here localy, on
>> line the y are much cheaper cost wise, yes
>>
>> but they are also a lot smaller and have minimal roots, the ones I
>> have that survived (10 out of 100 plants) I had to put in the
>> greenhouse and nurse to growing size
>>
>> I find its cheaper in the long run to pay more for a good healthy
>> plant that you can keep than the same for 10 or so that dont make it
>>
>> my pennys worth
>
>
> I agree with everything you say. I won't buy plants on the internet
> again. I did buy plants at my local pond shop and while they had much
> healthier roots they they haven't exactly taken off. My shot at the pond
> store owners is directed more at the fact that if you walk in and tell
> them you have green water they'll try and sell you a lot of expensive
> stuff. I asked them about a veggie filter and they thought I was nuts.
> "you can't plant iris in pea gravel, it needs nutrients, and the algae
> needs a big UV light to kill the algae that's living on the nutrients in
> the water." On the other hand, the just-add-plants mantra I see on the
> internet is missing something because I tried it and it didn't work. I'm
> hoping that a filter and a lot of plants work.
>
> Matt
>


--

take a look at my veggie filter on my website, my water is clear and no
filter
right now my cattails are nearly 7 ft tall



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[*muffin*]

ahhhhhhh, you just HAD to mention salt .......now you done it.. we will now
have to hear all the pros & cons..

(VBG)


Muffin > who found a bushel full of dirt on the bottom of her pond,,,,,,,, 2
plants had fallen over from their props,,,,,yuckkkkkkk (now what...)
..
>
> People may tell you what works for them but it might not work for you
> because, I suspect, people don't know what's going on in their own
> ponds. However, pond store people know less so I'd stick with rec.ponds,
> and add a grain of salt.
>
> Matt
>

[BenignVanilla]

"*muffin*" > wrote in message
...
>
> ahhhhhhh, you just HAD to mention salt .......now you done it.. we will
now
> have to hear all the pros & cons..
>
> (VBG)
>
>
> Muffin > who found a bushel full of dirt on the bottom of her pond,,,,,,,,
2
> plants had fallen over from their props,,,,,yuckkkkkkk (now what...)
> .
> >
> > People may tell you what works for them but it might not work for you
> > because, I suspect, people don't know what's going on in their own
> > ponds. However, pond store people know less so I'd stick with rec.ponds,
> > and add a grain of salt.

What is the proper dosage? How many grains with how much knowledge?

BV.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>"ken" > wrote in message
s.com...
>> I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
>> charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
>> careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
>> not, what are the possible substitutes?
>> Thanks for all your help.
>
>I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
>suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
>VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
>just sadist that like doing too much work.
>
>BV.
>
>tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
>troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know I
>am kidding.

Kidding aside, you young pond whipper snapper, you'll be speaking another
tune when you REALLY get into maintenance this fall. Assuming you follow
our directions. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[ken]

I have decided to use a variation of the Skippy filter (simple design
and cost were the main reasons). I do thank everyone for all their
help and advise. I have one more question. Do I need to buy some
bacteria or will it occur naturally? Seems to me that naturally is the
way to go, but being new to ponds, I need all the help I can get. Can
anybody give me some advise on keeping crows out of my pond and
garden?
Thanks again.
Ken
--
ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk

[RichToyBox]

The bacteria that work will find their way to the pond. The bugs in a
bottle are good for digesting solids, particularly when they get thick, but
not for the nitrogen cycle.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"ken" > wrote in message
news:1246e51797fee88fa3015d87870c7046@TeraNews...
> I have decided to use a variation of the Skippy filter (simple design
> and cost were the main reasons). I do thank everyone for all their
> help and advise. I have one more question. Do I need to buy some
> bacteria or will it occur naturally? Seems to me that naturally is the
> way to go, but being new to ponds, I need all the help I can get.

[BenignVanilla]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >"ken" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> >> I am in the midst of making my own pond filter. I was going to use
> >> charcoal brickets from the barbeque. A friend advised me to be
> >> careful. Does anyone out there know if this is a good idea or not? If
> >> not, what are the possible substitutes?
> >> Thanks for all your help.
> >
> >I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
> >suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build
a
> >VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters
are
> >just sadist that like doing too much work.
> >
> >BV.
> >
> >tee hee...that should ruffle some feather...seemed like a fun
> >troll...ooh...I am trolling rec.ponds. So much fun? *laugh* You guys know
I
> >am kidding.
>
> Kidding aside, you young pond whipper snapper, you'll be speaking another
> tune when you REALLY get into maintenance this fall. Assuming you follow
> our directions. ;o) ~ jan
<snip>

If my bottom drain does it's job, I should only need to clean out my VF
which is very easy since it is shallow. My only concern is that I to date
put off putting my diffuser on, so I know my BD is not being as effective as
it could be.

I realize I am green, but that won't stop me from being a smart a$$. All in
good fun, I certainly would not be so bold as to think I could run with you
big dogs. At least not until next year...if I come out of the winter with
living fish and a healthy pond, I'll ratchet my tude up a few notches. Next
year, I may even get involved in the salt wars.

For now, I will go back and not mess with my pond.

BV.

[Anne Lurie]

[major snippage here, as I'm not entirely sure who said what to whom]

*Somebody* said:

"I am going to attempt to start a new elist trend here on rec.ponds and
suggest you abandon the SILLY idea of a bio-mechanical filter, and build a
VF. VF'ers rule. The yahoo's on this group with bio-mechanical filters are
just sadist that like doing too much work."

I, however, simply cannot resist the opportunity to point out that the
people "that like doing too much work" are masochists! The sadists are
those of us who sit around [vicariously or otherwise] and watch. :)

Sincerely, Mrs. Language Person (hey, gimme a little credit, I was right
about "Yahoo" showing up in Gulliver's Travels! Not that anyone here
sked -- I'm just one of those wordy-nerdy types who only lives to Google!)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

[Karen Mullen]

In article >, MattR
> writes:

>It's more complicated than that. I put in lots of plants and only had a
>few fish, just like everyone says, and the water was green and the
>plants yellow. My fish are much bigger and the green water is gone.
>(We'll see about the plants.) The difference is the filter I added.
>

I don't know if it's all that complicated, your pond has found its balance,
Your fish have grown and multiplied thereby producing more waste that's then
turned into fertilizer for your plants. That's my problem right now, not
enough fish and too many plants that I need to fertilize to keep them green and
growing while I wait for my babies to grow up.

You basically have 3 types of filtration, mechanical for junk like flower
petals, leaves, grasses etc, biological for converting ammonia (fish waste)
into nitrates that fertilize your plants, and plants which remove excess
nutirents from the water thru roots. In an artificial pond you are trying to
mimic nature, but the ecosystem you are creating still has to find it's
balance, once it does, it pretty well takes care of itself thereafter.



Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K.M.Studios/K.M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

[MattR]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> Matt, There IS a whole lot more to it than just tossing in more plants. One
> possibility: if your pH is too high or too low most plants can't take up
> the nutrients. As a pond matures "usually" the pH comes down due to the
> breaking down of organics, and thus the plants start taking up more
> nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results. The filter
> coming on line could have just be coincidental, but I'm sure it helped
> regardless. Bio-filters have more areas for bacterias that break down
> ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate to live on. Without getting to
> technical, nitrate is what plants easily feed on.
>
> Do you have a pH test kit?

Yes, the ph is fine. So is the hardness. There is no, and never was,
any measurable ammonia or nitirites or salt or a problem with chlorine
or dissolved oxygen. I don't have any other tests.

> Have you read these pages?
> http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/H2oQual.html

Yes I have. Furthermore, Norm Meck, who wrote that web page, also wrote
another (http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html) with a
description of how algae is killed from a byproduct of rotting algae and
a type of bacteria (not the ones that remove ammonia) found in filters.
He disagrees with your comment that "the plants start taking up more
nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results". It's more
along the lines of dead algae gets caught in the filter, heterotroph
bacteria feeds on the dead matter, and some substance is released into
the water that kills algae. So, full sun is fine and lots of nutrients
in the water is also fine.

Experience with my pond follows his theory to a T and doesn't agree with
the usual descriptions of pond chemistry I find on the net.

So, given that Meck's description of how to get rid of algae disagrees
with conventional wisdom and it more closely describes what happened in
my pond, I think it's fair to say there's more going on than most people
realize. Conventional wisdom says put in plants to remove algae and I
suspect it's more along the lines of remove the algae so the plants have
a chance to grow. If people put the plants in via a veggie filter then
they've also added the mechanism to kill the algae. If instead they add
the plants without a place for the algae to rot they will continue to
have green water (my experience). When someone asks how to get rid of
green water and the response is add water cress and hyacinth I suspect
it won't work (also my experience).

Matt

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I'm surprised after reading Norm Meck's stuff that you pose the
question(s).

The only problem with "it's the filter" are my filterless ponsai or lily
pond with lots of plants, no suspended algae and clear water.

Though I must add out of honesty, I tried to add more fish this year than
last year and now have murky water. ~ jan

>Yes I have. Furthermore, Norm Meck, who wrote that web page, also wrote
>another (http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html) with a
>description of how algae is killed from a byproduct of rotting algae and
>a type of bacteria (not the ones that remove ammonia) found in filters.
>He disagrees with your comment that "the plants start taking up more
>nutrients, the algae can't compete and clear water results". It's more
>along the lines of dead algae gets caught in the filter, heterotroph
>bacteria feeds on the dead matter, and some substance is released into
>the water that kills algae. So, full sun is fine and lots of nutrients
>in the water is also fine.
>
>Experience with my pond follows his theory to a T and doesn't agree with
>the usual descriptions of pond chemistry I find on the net.
>
>So, given that Meck's description of how to get rid of algae disagrees
>with conventional wisdom and it more closely describes what happened in
>my pond, I think it's fair to say there's more going on than most people
>realize. Conventional wisdom says put in plants to remove algae and I
>suspect it's more along the lines of remove the algae so the plants have
>a chance to grow. If people put the plants in via a veggie filter then
>they've also added the mechanism to kill the algae. If instead they add
>the plants without a place for the algae to rot they will continue to
>have green water (my experience). When someone asks how to get rid of
>green water and the response is add water cress and hyacinth I suspect
>it won't work (also my experience).
>
>Matt


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Fish Head]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:31:47 GMT, MattR >
wrote:


>> Sure, plants alone won't work on a well stock koi pond, but they work fine
>> in a very low stock goldfish pond or watergarden with just minnows. IME
>
>I wonder how many plants and how many fish. I had 6 small fish in 1300
>gallons and going from 10 to 20 plants did nothing for the water. It
>would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.
>
>My reason for bringing any of this up is that a year ago I was getting
>frustrated trying any of the many ideas I've seen and not getting anywhere.
>
>Matt
>

I have about 100 fish in 2000 gallons.

My experience is that my ultraviolet light ensures no algae blooms.
These algae blooms TOTALLY cloud the water until the plants come into
action, provided you have plants. Still, if you do not have plants,
but do have the UV light, THEN the nitrites will build up so high
that the fish are subject to a toxic environment even with crystal
clear water.

This past year, I wintered over a bunch of hornwort that fell to the
pond bottom and then I bought about 20 bunches of anacharis in the
early spring (next year I will buy 30 bunches). Everything did come
together this year. Also, I have been seeding and maintaining bacteria
(BZT) every week with about two teaspoons of the BZT. My filter with
tons of mesh material and bioballs is working without any (like none)
differential pressure across the filter. Like a Timex, it takes a
licken, but keeps on ticken.

Here is the result, as of mid-July 2003:

http://bmoke.freeyellow.com/cppg028.htm

My filter design is based on http://users.owt.com/jjspond.

I (my fish) could not be happier.


Bill M.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:31:47 GMT, MattR > wrote:

>Check this page: http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/GRENH2O.html

Well, yea... that is the same one I read several years ago and no mention
of higher plant forms, he does call different algaes higher plants forms
than suspended algae. And he does qualify at the bottom of the article that
he is talking about "koi ponds". Many of us here when we talk "more plants"
we mean the lilies, marginals, submerged, etc. not string algaes. ;o) In a
mixture of koi/goldfish & water gardens. That's why they call us the Turtle
& Tadpole group. ;o)

>"THERE IS SOME COMPONENT IN CLEAR ESTABLISHED POND WATER THAT IS TOXIC
>TO THE BLOOM ALGAE."

He's talking about a possible inhibitor between species. Similar to
sunflower seed hulls, ever notice that nothing grows under a sunflower seed
bird feeder, except maybe sunflowers? Inhibitors (though I think there is
another name for it). Happens under walnut trees too, it's not just a lack
of water thing.

>He says the added algicide is a byproduct of some type of bacteria (not
>the kind that removes ammonia) that feeds on dead algae cells. If this
>is true

But see, his hunches/theories aren't any more true than the belief here
that more plants and NOT scrubbing the string algae off the sides of the
pond does the same thing. A combo of inhibitor plus removal of nutrients
perhaps?

>It would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.

Well I guess we don't do a very good job of quantifying because we're
afraid that if we tell them how many plants we really think they need, it
will scare them right out of the hobby. ;o) So we usually say, buy as many
as one can afford, barter, or gets snips off of. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:39:31 GMT, Fish Head > wrote:

>I have about 100 fish in 2000 gallons.
>Here is the result, as of mid-July 2003:
>
>http://bmoke.freeyellow.com/cppg028.htm
>
>My filter design is based on http://users.owt.com/jjspond.
>I (my fish) could not be happier.
>Bill M.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thanks Bill. ;o)
~ jan jordan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[MattR]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> Well, yea... that is the same one I read several years ago and no mention
> of higher plant forms, he does call different algaes higher plants forms
> than suspended algae. And he does qualify at the bottom of the article that
> he is talking about "koi ponds".

Fish crap is fish crap and green water will grow in anything. The ideas
should apply to any pond. I have 2 medium sized koi and too many
shibunkin (want some?). Is it a koi pond or a fish pond?

> Many of us here when we talk "more plants"
> we mean the lilies, marginals, submerged, etc. not string algaes. ;o)
> In a
> mixture of koi/goldfish & water gardens.

You type too fast or I lost what you were trying to get at. Nobody said
string algae was pretty/fun/tasty or have any socially redeeming values.

>>"THERE IS SOME COMPONENT IN CLEAR ESTABLISHED POND WATER THAT IS TOXIC
>>TO THE BLOOM ALGAE."
>
>
> He's talking about a possible inhibitor between species. Similar to
> sunflower seed hulls, ever notice that nothing grows under a sunflower seed
> bird feeder, except maybe sunflowers?

I wouldn't quite say that. The algicide doesn't come from plants. It
comes from rotting algae. I.e., you could have clear water with no
plants. At least for awhile. That's what his tests showed.


>>He says the added algicide is a byproduct of some type of bacteria (not
>>the kind that removes ammonia) that feeds on dead algae cells. If this
>>is true
>
>
> But see, his hunches/theories aren't any more true than the belief here
> that more plants and NOT scrubbing the string algae off the sides of the
> pond does the same thing.

I don't know, he ran tests. Besides, now that my soup algae is gone I
don't have any string algae. But my plants are happier.

> A combo of inhibitor plus removal of nutrients
> perhaps?

I think this is a key idea. Plants are about the only way to remove the
nutrients and eventually the nutrients have to be removed. But plants
are not what kill the algae. So a healthy pond will have both plants and
a place for the algae to rot. If you can put in 100 plants then maybe
you don't need a filter (How many plants and fish do you have in your
filterless pond?). If you can only afford 10 plants then a filter that
can hold rotting algae is probably a good idea. Or a veggie filter with
the right design will also work.

>>It would be helpful if we could quantify some of these ideas.
>
>
> Well I guess we don't do a very good job of quantifying because we're
> afraid that if we tell them how many plants we really think they need, it
> will scare them right out of the hobby. ;o)

I think you're right and I think that's not a good idea. Better in the
long run to have a happy ponder.

Matt

[MattR]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> You miss the point of where Norm is coming from, these Koi Pond people
> don't put ANY plants in their ponds. They are just now coming to realize
> the importance plants play to de-stress the fish, give them something to
> hide under or play around. They originally didn't want any thing to
> distract from the beauty of their living jewels. Can't blame them
> considering the money they spend, but these fish aren't works of art, they
> are living animals that deserve more than the sterile surroundings of a man
> made pond of straight sides, almost flat bottom, talk about a prison cell.

I like plants, too. And I don't think Norm is suggesting you don't need
them. He really doesn't mentiom plants on that web page.

> But that's what Norm is trying to point out in his article, his hunch: it
> is the inhibitor/antibodies off of the fuzz algae on the sides of the ponds
> that stops the suspended algae. That is "the Component". At least that is
> what I got out of his article and his tests.

No, it's not from the fuzz algae. Here's what he said: "When algae dies
and is subjected to aerobic bacterial decomposition by heterotroph
bacteria, a by-product of this process is a substance, released into the
water, that is toxic to the living algae." This is what I'm calling an
algicide.

> Algicide in no way comes from dead algae, when algae dies it releases

Not dead algae, rotting algae. It's the other bacteria eating the dead
algae that generates the algicide.

> almost all the nutrients it ever consumed. That's why when people use
> commercial algaecides it clears the water for a day or 3 and than the
> suspended algae comes back just as strong or worst than before.

Right. The good news about this algicide is that it's constantly
generated at just the right amounts. As the algae drops so does the
algicide because there will be less dead algae for the bacteria to feed
on. If the algae picks up the algicide will eventually pick up to match.
Kind of nice. It also explains spring algae blooms that come and go.

> 1,000 gallons. 13 lilies, 5 marginals, 2 lotus, water hyacinths
> & anacharis. 4 adult goldfish and lots of babies. ~ jan

That is quite a bit of plants. Must look nice. When someone asks about
adding plants this is a good reference point. The 60 bunches of
anacharis/1600 gallons that Sue mentioned is also a good reference
point. If someone bought all this for a new pond at their local pond
store they'd probably spend over $400 on plants and still have to wait
for them to mature.

Matt

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Hi Sue,

I must have missed that thread, what was your water quality problem?
~ jan

>On 21 Aug 2003 05:47:25 -0700, (Sue Walsh) wrote:

>Jan,
>
>My pond is oval(more or less) 18 x 8 x 2' deep plus the stream. I
>estimate it at 1650 gallons, surface area between 110-120 square feet.
> I have 9 gold fish (from 3" to 9"), 10 lilies (covers 3/4 of
>surface), 2 reeds(small), 5 iris(small), and 60 bunches(10 stems each)
>of anacharis plants.
>
>With reference to anacharis or other underwater oxygenators, when I
>set up my pond I was told by the local pond guy to use 75-100
>bunches(he says 7 stems per bunch)and also from the on line pond
>calculator at...
>
>http://webpages.charter.net/crush11/uscalc/usoval.htm
>
>...to add 55 bunches (I'll guess they meant the 10 stem standard
>bunches).
>
>Reciently when I posted about water problems, I was advised to remove
>some of my plants? I don't remember who suggested it, but I've been
>wondering about it since then on & off. What plants would I remove
>and why? Seeing your list of plants and realizing you have a similar
>seniaro(plant wise not water problems), what do you think? Are there
>too many anacharis? Can't remove the lilies they are my reason for a
>water garden and I need them for surface cover. There's not much
>else. BTW...water is clearing, thank heavens after a lot of praying
>to the pond gods.
>
>Sue W
>
>See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
>http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:25:48 GMT, MattR > wrote:

>No, it's not from the fuzz algae. Here's what he said: "When algae dies
>and is subjected to aerobic bacterial decomposition by heterotroph
>bacteria, a by-product of this process is a substance, released into the
>water, that is toxic to the living algae."

Okay...... well than, there's your "a filter must be part of the component
for clear water" as heterotroph bacteria thrive in a bio-filter. This was
discussed in one of the required reading KHA articles (Water Chemistry by
NormM) on the AKCA.org website. They suspect the reason folks using
pressurized systems often find they need UV to keep the suspend algae under
control is because the frequency of backwashing removes the delicate
heterotrophic bacteria. (Koi Ponds few plants.)

One has to remember that even with high plant load, low fish load, pH and
aeration also play a part. Adding a filter usually also means adding water
movement and water falling from a pipe or waterfall. In my veggie pond I do
have an air wand running and a bell fountain. I still had murky water and
that was a high pH problem. I have corrected the pH problem just the other
day and I can finally see the tops of the lily baskets again. Still not as
clear as in previous years, but getting there.... course DH wants to move
the Q-tank filter to the lily pond now. <s> ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Sue Walsh]

~ jan

> I must have missed that thread, what was your water quality problem?

Basic ongoing dark brown water, forever. I think the thread was
"Black Water". Hubby has since hooked up a homemade filter to add to
the Savio Skimmer/Filter and it began to clear. Cause and effect or
coincidence? Now I can see the bottom for the first time in 4 months.
Grateful to be able to see my fish, finally as it has just cleared in
the past few days. Getting clearer every day, although not gin clear,
but still greenish clear. Running a Pondmaster Mag 3600gph pump.
Considering adding the UV unit into the Savio to get rid of the green,
but not ready to spend the money yet. I've been really trying to
maintain the "Don't Mess With The Pond" advice. Hey BV, you out
there, seeing this???

It was Nedra that recommended I remove some plants (I just searched to
see who it was). Still not sure what she wanted me to remove or why.

Sorry it takes me so long to respond, I use yahoo and it takes 3-6
hours for my responses to be posted, real drag.

Thanks for any enlightenment on this topic.

Sue W

See my pond album called 'Rippling Waters'
http://community.webshots.com/user/aspenjd

[MattR]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
> They suspect the reason folks using
> pressurized systems often find they need UV to keep the suspend algae under
> control is because the frequency of backwashing removes the delicate
> heterotrophic bacteria. (Koi Ponds few plants.)

Don't people with fluidized filters also need UV?

One more question for your plants only pond; how do your plants get fed?
Do you add fertilizer of any kind? Are your plants in pea gravel or
dirt? I just added some plants and they're mostly in pea gravel and I
hope they'll grow.

Matt

[MattR]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>Don't people with fluidized filters also need UV?
>
>
> Aren't those pressurized?

I don't think they have to be but they could. The water has to go
through at a consistent rate to keep the beads or sand from settling.
But other than that it shouldn't matter. I think those things really
are for koi or big fish loads because they're made just for removing
ammonia.


> The lilies are in my sandy soil and I feed them twice a month with Tomato
> spikes. The others are in semi-sandy soil and rocks, I don't feed those. In
> the spring the frogs come in and between them and spawning then all the
> tadpoles they fertilize, then later I put out 2-4 large goldfish, they
> spawn and parents and babies fertilize the plants. ~ jan

Great! so there is hope for my plants. My lillies are in mostly clay.
The rest are in pea gravel. Ever since the water cleared they're
shooting roots out everywhere. Now, I just need to remove a lot of the
little fish and they're getting wise to the trap...

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:29:51 GMT, MattR > wrote:

>Great! so there is hope for my plants.

There's aways hope. ;o)

One thing I learned this year was if the plants aren't doing well, it's
another reason to check water quality. A pH of 9 or more can really slow
things down so I found. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>>
>> One thing I learned this year was if the plants aren't doing well, it's
>> another reason to check water quality. A pH of 9 or more can really slow
>> things down so I found. ~ jan
>
>I measured it this morning and again tonite and it was between 8 and
>8.5. I think that's ok. Matt

Yes, that should be fine. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[ken]

When I start this thread I didn't realize the response it would create.
I think it is wonderful.

My idea of a pond is to create a natural environment where you do not
have to look at ph levels or add chemicals to adjust for nitrites or
nitrates. That is why I thought a skippy filter was the answer.

I made a 250 gallon pond in early July. I t is a birthday present for
my wife. I put in several plants, both on the surface and on the
bottom. I then added a dozen feeder gold fish. A week later I added
my version of the skippy. I am using a pump that moves 170 gallons per
hour. I made a 1 1/2 foot water fall.

I t has been over a month since I added the filter. My fish are
growing, My plants are healthy. And my water is pretty good. I can
see the bottom (2 feet). I have no idea what the chemical makeup of
the water is. Nor do I care.

All I put into the pond is fish food and water to replace evaporation.
The fish are just starting to know when feeding time is and come to
meet me. This is what creating a pond is all about.

I live on Vancouver Island in Canada (zone 8a).

To me this is the closest thing I can get to a natural pond. All the
ideas I got for how to create this pond came from this chat group.
Thank you for all your advise on how to do things and how not to do
things.
To e-mail see website [/B]
--
ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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