Re: Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.

[[email protected]]

please cross post as he really needs help. Ingrid

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

>I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
>small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
>was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
>died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
>chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
>out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
>bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
>added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
>added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
>3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
>week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
>water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
>sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
>high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
>deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
>died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
>placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
>my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
>died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
>something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
>out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
>substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
>kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
>two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
>waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
>The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
>short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
>again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
>did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
>water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
>any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[DonKcR]

Are you using the same equipment to refill the pond each time? Could there
be some kind of contaminate in the equipment to refill the pond? I wondered
because you probably used a different system to fill the bowl. Just a
thought from a new pond person. Kc
> wrote in message
...
> please cross post as he really needs help. Ingrid
>
> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>
> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Axolotl]

>>I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
>>small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
>>was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
>>died the next day.

How is your water treated, by whom? Some municipalities have stopped
using chlorine to treat domestic water and have started using things like
ozone, bromine partly to improve the taste and partly because they have
longer half lives and are considered more effective. Check with your
water supplier.

How are you refilling the pond? If you are using the automatic re-filler
mentioned above try filling from some other source. Use the kitchen tap
and a hose. I only suggest this as your problems started when you turned
the automatic system back on.

If the water is still being chlorinated the a test for this might be to
fill a small container with tap water, either let it sit for 24Hrs or add
de-chlorinator and introduce a small fish. If the fish survives try the
same thing using the water source you are using to fill the pond. Take
the sample at the point it enters the pond, but don't take it from the
pond. If the fish survives this part of the test then the problem is in
the pond, if it doesn't then the problem is in the water used to fill the
pond.

WARNING, If the fish doesn't survive part one of the test GET YOUR WATER
TESTED YOU MAY BE AT RISK!

[Sam Hopkins]

What's the fish look like when it dies? Does it have all it's fins or have
they been eaten away leaving only the thicker parts? Are there any red marks
on it's belly? Do the gills look normal or are they red? Two things that can
kill are different water temperatures and different PH. Chlorine (or other
chemicals) normally cause red gills. Nitrites usually cause red belly. Fins
eaten away is usually PH.


> wrote in message
...
> please cross post as he really needs help. Ingrid
>
> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>
> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Lee Brouillet]

I've been thinking on this one all day. It appears as if all the variables
are covered. My one suggestion for cleaning the lava rock is to put it on a
grill and cook it like a steak: it will burn out any residue that's in the
rocks, and nothing is left after they heat up. It doesn't smell too good,
but it's an extremely effective way to clean the rock, much more effective
than simply blasting it with a hose or power washer. If the pumps were
leaking, you'd notice the film on the water. After the water's been changed
so many times, one would "assume" that anything toxic had been washed out.
To ensure, I'd nuke the pond with a heavy PP dose which would neutralize
most toxins, then maybe put a couple of pounds of activated charcoal in a
knee-high stocking for a few days where there's heavy water flow. Between
the two, if there are any toxins in the water or on the liner, they will be
removed. Because the fish lived in the same water in the house, but died
when placed in the pond, it leads me to believe some of the simple things
like pH differences, water temp change, fish stress in the bag (ammonia?
heat from the sun?) The power washer is suspect, but if you say it hasn't
been used for anything toxic (BTW, fertilizers CAN be toxic . . .) then the
above recommended things would cure that, especially firing up the lava
rock! This is a tough one: everything I can think of has already been tried
or eliminated. I'll keep thinking, and maybe someone will trip over the
answer.

Best of luck,
Lee

> wrote in message
...
> please cross post as he really needs help. Ingrid
>
> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>
> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Theron]

>> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>>
>> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
>> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
>> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
>> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
>> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
>> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
>> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
>> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
>> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
>> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
>> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
>> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
>> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
>> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
>> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
>> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
>> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
>> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
>> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
>> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
>> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
>> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
>> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
>> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
>> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
>> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
>> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
>> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
>> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
>> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
>> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>>

A couple of questions.

I read that you have put goldfish in your preform that you had in a
bowl with the same declorinator/ conditioning solution that you use in
your preform. Did you get your water from the same source? That is,
when you fill your preform, I am assuming that you fill it with a hose
or its dedicated water source. Is this correct? I have seen garden
hoses break down chemically over time and become toxic.
The same with underground sprinkler systems.
Let get rid of that variable also. Try to use the same source of water
that you used for the goldfish that you had in the bowl.

Theron

[Timothy Tom]

To address the power-washer concerns, the washer has been used by me
only. It has only had water used in it. Nothing else, nada, no
detergents, no fertilizer, nothing except water from a hose receiving
the same municipal water. As far as what the fish look like when I
put them in. This does cause me some concern. When I first put the
fish in, it appears as if something really irritates them. Most of
the fish I have witnessed appear to intermittently dart around for
about 2-3 min, and then appear to settle to the bottom in a upright
(i.e. apparently resting) position. One of the goldfish that was
first added, I found had actually jumped out of the pond. I put it
back in, and it died within 10 mins. I have then witnessed several
fish die within 10-20 min. I think this makes it clear that there is
no other creature/critter involved in killing them. It further seems
to support some toxin/strong irritant killing them. Upon dying, I
have really not noticed any redness anywhere on the fish. They simply
look completely normal except they are limp and dead.

[MattO]

"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
om...
> Thank you all for your thoughts. The pond has always been refilled
> using an auto-refill valve put in by the original landscaper who
> installed the pond. The fact that fish lived in a bowl of the same
> treated tap-water that is used to fill the pond suggests to me that
> the problem does not lie in the municipal water source. It is
> possible that it has something to do with the auto-refill I suppose.

Axolotl said:
How are you refilling the pond? If you are using the automatic re-filler
mentioned above try filling from some other source. Use the kitchen tap
and a hose. I only suggest this as your problems started when you turned
the automatic system back on.

I think Axolotl was on to something.
Not the water itself, but something in the auto-refill plumbing.
Willing to risk 1 more fish? Try filling pond from a hose?
~MattO

[GD]

Which dechlorinating/conditioning product did you use? How much did
you put in the goldfish bowl and what is the goldfish bowl volume?
How much did you put in the 150 gallon pond? And, how are you
acclimating the new fish prior to stocking?


Theron > wrote:

>
>>> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>>>
>>> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
>>> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
>>> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
>>> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
>>> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
>>> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
>>> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
>>> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
>>> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
>>> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
>>> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
>>> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
>>> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
>>> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
>>> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
>>> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
>>> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
>>> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
>>> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
>>> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
>>> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
>>> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
>>> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
>>> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
>>> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
>>> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
>>> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
>>> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
>>> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
>>> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
>>> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>>>
>
>A couple of questions.
>
>I read that you have put goldfish in your preform that you had in a
>bowl with the same declorinator/ conditioning solution that you use in
>your preform. Did you get your water from the same source? That is,
>when you fill your preform, I am assuming that you fill it with a hose
>or its dedicated water source. Is this correct? I have seen garden
>hoses break down chemically over time and become toxic.
>The same with underground sprinkler systems.
>Let get rid of that variable also. Try to use the same source of water
>that you used for the goldfish that you had in the bowl.
>
>Theron

[Sam Hopkins]

Place a fish in the pond. If he dies scoop some water out of the pond and
place in a bowl. Next place fish #2 in the bowl. If he dies you rule out any
type of power issue and rule in a chemical problem. If he doesn't die you
rule out chemical problem and rule in power problem.

Sam


> wrote in message
...
> please cross post as he really needs help. Ingrid
>
> (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>
> >I have a 150 gallon outdoor pond. It was populated by 3 koi, and a
> >small catfish for over a year and a half until the automatic refill
> >was inadvertantly turned off. When it was turned back on the fish
> >died the next day. I assumed it was from a large influx of
> >chlorinated water. Anyway, I took the opportunity to totally clean
> >out the pond including about a inch of sludge, and small rocks on the
> >bottom. New water was added, dechlorinator/conditioning solution
> >added, and the pond was left to circulate for 48 hours. New koi were
> >added (after acclimation) and died within 1 hour. I changed the water
> >3 complete times, reconditioned the water, let it circulate for 1
> >week, added some comets which died within two hours. I changed the
> >water again three times, let it circulate for 3 weeks, took a water
> >sample to my local LFS. They told me that the ammonia was slightly
> >high (but not deadly) pH, was about 8.1 (slightly high but not
> >deadly). Basically they told me that they did not know why the fish
> >died. Using the same tap water that the pond is refilled from, I
> >placed some comets which lived for a week without problem in a bowl in
> >my home. When placed the comets in the pond, after acclimation they
> >died within a day. WHAT IS GOING ON? It appears that there is
> >something quite toxic to fish in the fish pond. Still I have changed
> >out the water multiple multiple times with no improvement. The toxic
> >substance must be specific to the pond, since the tap water did not
> >kill the fish in a fish bowl. The only things I have in the pond are
> >two pumps (one is a new fountain pump (Beckett) and the other is the
> >waterfall pump which has been there for two years without problem.
> >The pumps are on GFI circuits so I don't think there could be a large
> >short circuit. There are Lava type rocks in the pond which, once
> >again were in there with the koi for over a year without problem. I
> >did power wash the rocks prior to putting them back in the pond. The
> >water temp is in the low 80's. The water is perfectly clear. Please
> >any help appreciated since I am at a loss what to do next.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Andrew Burgess]

(Timothy Tom) writes:

>As far as the water parameters,
>recently the temp has been around 83 degrees.

I've never seen my pond that hot. Since no one else has commented
I suppose you hot weather folks see this all the time with no problems?
Otherwise, I'd shade it until it dropped 10 degrees and try again.

>As I previously mentioned the ammonia level was tested by
>the LFS, who reported that is was a little high (I am afraid I dont
>remember the number or the units) but not deadly.

Should be zero, of course.

>The fact that this
>pond and all equipment, and rocks in it supported fish successfully
>for the past two years, is what is so confusing and frustrating for
>me. I will try to test for some of the other parameter mentioned.

For the water temperature, is the shading any different?

[BenignVanilla]

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message news:bh0er4
<snip>
> >As I previously mentioned the ammonia level was tested by
> >the LFS, who reported that is was a little high (I am afraid I dont
> >remember the number or the units) but not deadly.
>
> Should be zero, of course.
<snip>

I have been thinking about this, but lurking out of fear of ignorance
but...If the fish only last 10 minutes, how is ANY ammonia getting in there?
I suspect the water filler system. Sam's idea of using a bowl of water from
the pond is a good idea, to rule out electrical issues.

BV.

[Donald Kerns]

BenignVanilla wrote:

> "Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message news:bh0er4
> <snip>
>> >As I previously mentioned the ammonia level was tested by
>> >the LFS, who reported that is was a little high (I am afraid I dont
>> >remember the number or the units) but not deadly.
>>
>> Should be zero, of course.
> <snip>
>
> I have been thinking about this, but lurking out of fear of ignorance
> but...If the fish only last 10 minutes, how is ANY ammonia getting in
> there?

You can get ammonia if the water company is using chloramine and you are
using a normal dechlorinator. The dechlorinator strips the chlorine
out, leaving ammonia.

AmQuel is recommended in this situation...

-Donald
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Axolotl]

Andrew Burgess > wrote in news:bh0er4$m4e$2
@athlon.cichlid.com:

> (Timothy Tom) writes:
>
>>As far as the water parameters,
>>recently the temp has been around 83 degrees.
>

I missed the temperature posting, that does seem hot but when looked in the
following discussion
(http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/ponds/msg071057203893.html) they
seemed to think that 90F for GF and 85F for shubunkins was OK.
Whereas these guys (http://www.goldfishparadise.com/water/temperature.php)
seem to think that 86F is the max.

Did I read you correctly somewhere back in this thread in saying that the
fish survive quite nicely when placed in a container with your tap water?

I think we need to setup some form of checklist in order to tackle this
problem systematically, but before we get to that. I have some questions:
· How is your pond constructed?
· What furniture does it have (rocks, plants, planters, waterfalls etc)
· Between discovering that the auto-filler hand been turn off and
turning it back on, what if anything did you do (filter cleaning, moving or
changing plants)?
· Where does the auto filler get its water from? I remember seeing
somebody who had an automatic fill system that did not use tap water, it
was connected to a tank/cistern that collected rain water (try to be
environmentally friendly) they ran into a problem when the cistern became
contaminated, I their case it was a dead animal I think.


some ideas on testing to find problem, if anybody has a better one speak
up.

1. Does a fish survive if placed in tap water (say from kitchen tap)?
a. If yes go on to (2).
b. If no you have a domestic water problem (too much chlorine,
municipality using something other than chlorine, contamination of your
water supply)

2. Does a fish survive if placed in water drawn from the auto-filler
(water is put directly into same container use in (1)?
a. If yes, then the problem would seem to be with the pond and its
fitting/landscaping.
b. If no, then the auto-filler seems to introducing some form of
contamination.

3. Fill the pond from some source other than the auto-filler, suggest
same source as in one. Let it stand for 48 hours. Does a fish survive if
placed in a container of water taken from the pond? This test would confirm
test 2.
a. Yes, the problem is definitely with the auto-filler.
b. No, both pond and auto-filler are the problem. It maybe that the pond
and its furniture have been contaminated by the auto-filler. My suggestion
at this point would be to remove all pond furniture and clean the pond
using the water source in (1). DO NOT put the pond furniture back, refill
it using water source as in (1) and try this test again. If the fish
survive this time its some part of the furniture. You could try cleaning
each piece and hope that you've got rid of the offending material, but I
would be inclined to dump them and start with new stuff.

Hope this helps.

Axolotl

[jammer]

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:15:48 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Burgess
> wrote:

(Timothy Tom) writes:
>
>>As far as the water parameters,
>>recently the temp has been around 83 degrees.
>
>I've never seen my pond that hot. Since no one else has commented
>I suppose you hot weather folks see this all the time with no problems?
>Otherwise, I'd shade it until it dropped 10 degrees and try again.
>
>>As I previously mentioned the ammonia level was tested by
>>the LFS, who reported that is was a little high (I am afraid I dont
>>remember the number or the units) but not deadly.
>
>Should be zero, of course.
>
>>The fact that this
>>pond and all equipment, and rocks in it supported fish successfully
>>for the past two years, is what is so confusing and frustrating for
>>me. I will try to test for some of the other parameter mentioned.
>
>For the water temperature, is the shading any different?

My pond stays 10 degrees cooler being shaded in the afternoon and i
am one of those hot weather folks in Texas.

[[email protected]]

yep, that is very suspicious. Ingrid

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
Because the fish lived in the same water in the house, but died
>when placed in the pond, it leads me to believe some of the simple things
---> , fish stress in the bag (ammonia?
>heat from the sun?)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Timothy Tom]

Most posters appear to be focusing in on the auto-refill system.
Although I find it hard to understand how some type of toxic substance
could get in and persist in there after so much water has gone through
the system, I will try some of the suggestions on testing this (i.e.
filling the pond with tap water from another source, and testing
goldfish in a bowl filled with auto-refill water). Once again the
auto-refill comes off an outside hose water outlet (supplied by the
city water supply).

Thanks,
Timothy

[Brett Fogle]

(Timothy Tom) wrote in message >...
> Most posters appear to be focusing in on the auto-refill system.
> Although I find it hard to understand how some type of toxic substance
> could get in and persist in there after so much water has gone through
> the system, I will try some of the suggestions on testing this (i.e.
> filling the pond with tap water from another source, and testing
> goldfish in a bowl filled with auto-refill water). Once again the
> auto-refill comes off an outside hose water outlet (supplied by the
> city water supply).
>
> Thanks,
> Timothy


Timothy,

Would you be interested in testing a new pond water filter that we are
developing?

It screws onto the end of your hose, and removes all the toxins
(metals, chlorine, chloramine, etc.)?

Let me know, we're looking for some user feedback.

You can contact me at

Good luck either way,

Thanks,

Brett

[RichToyBox]

Brett,

Is this new filter system be a charcoal cartridge or other consumable filter
system? If so, I would highly recommend the use of a chlorine test kit,
before, during and after each use. My BIL was using a home water purifier,
charcoal based, and it was not that old, when he killed one fish, had two
seriously distressed fish. When we tested for chlorine, the tap water was
swimming pool safe.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Brett Fogle" > wrote in message
om...
> (Timothy Tom) wrote in message
>...
> > Most posters appear to be focusing in on the auto-refill system.
> > Although I find it hard to understand how some type of toxic substance
> > could get in and persist in there after so much water has gone through
> > the system, I will try some of the suggestions on testing this (i.e.
> > filling the pond with tap water from another source, and testing
> > goldfish in a bowl filled with auto-refill water). Once again the
> > auto-refill comes off an outside hose water outlet (supplied by the
> > city water supply).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Timothy
>
>
> Timothy,
>
> Would you be interested in testing a new pond water filter that we are
> developing?
>
> It screws onto the end of your hose, and removes all the toxins
> (metals, chlorine, chloramine, etc.)?
>
> Let me know, we're looking for some user feedback.
>
> You can contact me at
>
> Good luck either way,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brett

[Sue Walsh]

brett>
> Timothy,
>
> Would you be interested in testing a new pond water filter that we are
> developing?

Tim,

In MHO it would be foolish to add anything new until you have solved
the original problem.

Sue W

[Timothy Tom]

(Sue Walsh) wrote in message >...
> brett>
> > Timothy,
> >
> > Would you be interested in testing a new pond water filter that we are
> > developing?
>
> Tim,
>
> In MHO it would be foolish to add anything new until you have solved
> the original problem.
>
> Sue W

I would be interested in testing a new pond filter, however I do not
think it would be in the best interest of the developer since right
now, it seems that this pond is cursed with some unknown factor.

Anyway, today I plan to do the following test. I will get a bowl of
water from the auto-refill outlet, and a bowl of water from the
kitchen faucet (same source I used successfully to keep fish in a bowl
for a week. I will treat with dechlorinator, and try goldfish in each
bowl. If the goldfish die in the auto-refill water and not the kitchen
sink water, then that tells me it is the auto-refill system that is at
fault. Although this would not tell me why, it would at least give me
some answers.

Will repost when I get an answer.

Timothy

[Andrew Burgess]

(Timothy Tom) writes:

>Anyway, today I plan to do the following test. I will get a bowl of
>water from the auto-refill outlet, and a bowl of water from the
>kitchen faucet (same source I used successfully to keep fish in a bowl
>for a week.

Maybe also a bowl from the pond (and let it cool off)?

[Sam Hopkins]

I agree.

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> (Timothy Tom) writes:
>
> >Anyway, today I plan to do the following test. I will get a bowl of
> >water from the auto-refill outlet, and a bowl of water from the
> >kitchen faucet (same source I used successfully to keep fish in a bowl
> >for a week.
>
> Maybe also a bowl from the pond (and let it cool off)?
>

[Timothy Tom]

Followup UPDATE

The following test was done. One bowl of water from the Auto-refill
system was collected in a plastic bowl, and a second bowl was filled
with tap water from the kitchen faucet. Both bowls were treated with
dechlorinator/conditioner (TetraAqua Aquasafe). Two goldfish per bowl
were acclimated and released into the bowls. It is important to note
that both bowls were kept in the house (Thermostat kept at 79 degrees
during the day, and 84 degrees at night.

RESULTS AFTER APPROXIMATELY 24 HRS.

ALL GOLDFISH ALIVE.

Well this rules out the auto-refill system as the culprit. I did
remeasure the temperature of the pond water and found it to be 85
degrees. We are having a heat wave in South Texas. Could all my
problems be as simply as the pond being too hot? Can 85 degree water
kill goldfish in a couple of hours. I never saw the goldfish gulping
air near the surface as I would expect if the temp were too hot, and
the oxygen level too low in the pond.

My next test will be to go get a couple bags of ice, and lower the
temp of my pond to below 80 degrees and see if the goldfish make it
through a few hours. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the pond did
originally have 3 koi and a catfish in it for nearly two years, and I
believe koi are more heat-tolerant than goldfish. At this point I
have ruled out the following as culprits in killing the pond fish:
1) Municipal water supply (both from auto-refill and kitchen faucet
water supported fish inside my house in a bowl)
2) Electical short-circuit/current leak (Fish died with all electrical
devices unplugged/pond circuit is on GFI circuit, and any leak should
switch the plug off anyway)
3) Rock in pond (Rock removed, and fish still died)
4)Chemicals, contaminants, poisons (After over ten complete water
changes, if the water is still toxic then I have discovered a highly
deadly biotoxin that probably should have killed my whole family by
now.
5) Pond liner (Commercial pre-formed liner in use for over two years.
6) pH, Ammonia (tested and while not great, not likely to be able to
be acutely toxic to fish.

There is not a whole lot else to test now.

[K30a]

Tdtom wrote >>
6) pH, Ammonia (tested and while not great, not likely to be able to
be acutely toxic to fish.<<

I've been following this thread, though I'm no expert, but I have two questions
today.

What are the test measurements exactly for PH and ammonia?

Are all fish found dead the same time of day or varied times?


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Timothy Tom]

I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
in to the house to further decrease the temp.

[Nedra]

Okay... How many gallons of water are in the pond?
How old is your test kit? What are the numbers
for ammonia? What is the pH? NitrIte?

Saying the ammonia " ...not great not likely to be able
to be toxic to the fish" is a big clue.
Makes me think you are missing something Very Crucial.

Buy a new test for the above tests or a kit!

Please get back to us on the ammonia and pH, etc.
numbers.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
om...
> I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
> bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
> leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
> goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
> 24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
> release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
> again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
> and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
> can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
> have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
> and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
> I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
> in to the house to further decrease the temp.
>

[Cichlidiot]

In rec.ponds Timothy Tom > wrote:
> I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
> bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
> leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
> goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
> 24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
> release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
> again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
> and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
> can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
> have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
> and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
> I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
> in to the house to further decrease the temp.

Since that remains the one thing you haven't tested. I say do it. Take one
of the bowls you used in the previous tests (that the fish survived in).
Bring it inside and let it cool off for a day or two. Then try. If the
fish dies, it's not the temp. If it survives, then it is the temp. You
might also want to look into if there is someone in your area who can do
fish necropsies on the dead fish. Perhaps they'd be able to determine the
cause of death.

[jammer]

On 12 Aug 2003 17:14:39 -0700, (Timothy Tom) wrote:

>I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
>bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
>leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
>goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
>24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
>release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
>again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
>and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
>can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
>have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
>and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
>I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
>in to the house to further decrease the temp.

My goldfish survived 88 for a couple weeks.

[Jim Brown]

Timothy Tom > wrote in message
om...
> I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
> bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
> leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
> goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
> 24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
> release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
> again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
> and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
> can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
> have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
> and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
> I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
> in to the house to further decrease the temp.

Using the pond water in the house won't give much of a difference with your
heat wave. Is it possible to rig up some shadecloth over the pond to see if
the water can be cooled a bit out of the direct sun?
It also might be worthwhile to try some warmth loving fish in the pond.
Perhaps a male Betta as it can handle less than perfect water, a couple rosy
reds, some danios, those sort of small testers.

Jim

[zookeeper]

Timothy Tom wrote:
> ... The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
> goldfish ... was acclimated to the pond temp and released ... After,
> about 90 mins. I checked the pond again and found it floating ...
> I have tested everything I can possibly test,
> and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
> I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
> in to the house to further decrease the temp.

Another test you might want to do is to take a water sample to your
local extension, agricultural or water office and ask them to test the
water for toxic substances. It may cost a bit, but certainly less than
continually trying to replace the fish. I wouldn't want a pond that
couldn't support life -- I'd be afraid to put my hands in it or allow
other birds or animals near it.
--
Zk (sig compliments of BV)
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies
Oregon, Zone 6

[Donald Kerns]

Timothy Tom wrote:

>
> There is not a whole lot else to test now.

Water from pond, in a bowl, cooled to indoor temperature.

Water from pond to water analyist or chemical analysis.

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Andrew Burgess]

"Jim Brown" > writes:


>Timothy Tom > wrote in message
om...
>> I am really thinking about giving up on keeping fish in this pond. I
>> bought 3 bags of ice, and placed them in a large trash bag to prevent
>> leakage of water. The pond temperature came down to 83 degrees. The
>> goldfish taken from the bowl from the auto refill system, alive for
>> 24hrs, was acclimated to the pond temp and released in the pond. After
>> release it looked fine. I watched it for about 10 mins, and once
>> again it looked fine. After about 90 mins. I checked the pond again
>> and found it floating. Unless someone tells me that 83 degree water
>> can kill a goldfish within two hours, I have nothing else to test. I
>> have no other theories. I have tested everything I can possibly test,
>> and ruled out everything that can be ruled out. One of the last things
>> I can do is take the pond water that just killed the fish and bring it
>> in to the house to further decrease the temp.

>Using the pond water in the house won't give much of a difference with your
>heat wave. Is it possible to rig up some shadecloth over the pond to see if
>the water can be cooled a bit out of the direct sun?

Isn't inside the house out of direct sun :-)

[Timothy Tom]

Another update:

A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
with kitchen faucet water were fine.

After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
pond liner does quickly kill fish.

As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
our shape and it is 250 gallons.

I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

[Axolotl]

(Timothy Tom) wrote in news:ff44f110.0308131430.18a02967
@posting.google.com:

> Another update:
>
snip
> I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
> the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.


Sounds resonable.
I wonder if the original installer did something stupid, like using
brush-killer to make sure no weeds etc, get under the pond.
You might find the leak once the pond is empty by the water from the wet
sub-soil leaking back into it.

[Timothy Tom]

TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
..25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.

[Nedra]

Thanks Tim! Those numbers should reveal something is amiss.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
m...
> "Nedra" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > Please Tim ... You still have not answered the questions I have
> > regarding Ammonia? pH? NirItes?
> > What are these values in actual numbers?
>
>
> O.K. Nedra, I will test those tonight.
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Hi Tim, I just caught up with this thread going back to the 8th of Aug. See
my guesses below:

>On 14 Aug 2003 14:46:44 -0700, (Timothy Tom) wrote:
>TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:
>
>O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
> Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
>so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.
>
>The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
>perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
>scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
>.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.

Nitrate is definitely not the problem. Since your test measures from 1 to 2
ppm I'm sure it is nitrate and not the nitrite test which measure in 0.00.
A nitrite number would be nice. With no fish for 48 hrs and a reading of
ammonia either means you have chloramines that you're not detoxing with the
right product and after 48 hours those number are lower than what they
originally were when first filled and treated with just a dechlorinator. If
you don't have chloramines in your water system, then I'd definitely say
that leak you've found, is adding fertilizer and who knows what.

Last year there was a mystery fish kill of a pond that a vendor ran a story
on. Turned out it was the feather rock in the pond, all these fine
microscopic glass particles coming off the rock and ripping the fishes'
gills up. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[RichToyBox]

> After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
> determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
> with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
> noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
> sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
> in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
> liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
> the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
> it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
> since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
> but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
> pond liner does quickly kill fish.
I think you have probably found the problem. I had preformed ponds for my
first two ponds, hooked together with a short stream. The ponds cracked on
the third season. My ponds were located above the septic system leach
field, and I was having a lot of problems that I think may have come from
the exchange of water between the pond and leach field. If this is the
case, then you could be getting significant amounts of hydrogen sulfide in
the water which is very toxic to the fish, and is not one of the usual tests
that we perform. Check for the leaks.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

[jammer]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:32:37 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> wrote:

>> After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
>> determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
>> with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
>> noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
>> sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
>> in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
>> liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
>> the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
>> it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
>> since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
>> but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
>> pond liner does quickly kill fish.
>I think you have probably found the problem. I had preformed ponds for my
>first two ponds, hooked together with a short stream. The ponds cracked on
>the third season. My ponds were located above the septic system leach
>field, and I was having a lot of problems that I think may have come from
>the exchange of water between the pond and leach field. If this is the
>case, then you could be getting significant amounts of hydrogen sulfide in
>the water which is very toxic to the fish, and is not one of the usual tests
>that we perform. Check for the leaks.

3rd yr. huh... bummer.

Well, ......*sigh*........I guess i will have to dig another pond in
the next 18 months. You know, with a liner and all...<SEG>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Timothy Tom wrote:
>> scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
>> .25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.
>
>-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley
>
Naaa, .25 is the first number of most test kits. It sure wouldn't kill in 2
hrs, though sure would stress the fish after a few days. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[GD]

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

>Another update:
>
>A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
>inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
>other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
>that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
>killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
>kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
>temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
>although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
>went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
>with kitchen faucet water were fine.
>
>After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
>determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
>with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
>noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
>sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
>in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
>liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
>the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
>it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
>since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
>but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
>pond liner does quickly kill fish.
>
>As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
>posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
>the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
>liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
>our shape and it is 250 gallons.
>
>I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
>the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

You gotta love this newsgroup and its determination to solve a
problem. The theory of toxic substances seeping into the pond through
a leak is sound. After looking over this entire thread (in
retrospect, of course, knowing about "the leak"), it seems just as
likely that the auto-refill system has been dumping untreated water
into the pond to compensate for the leak, negating the dechlor
treatments. Back in the day, when the problem started (you posted
that the refill system was shut off for one day), how much water loss
was suffered?

[Andrew Burgess]

"MattO" > writes:

>"john rutz" > wrote in message
...
>> Timothy Tom wrote:
>> > TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:
>> >
>> > O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
>> > Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
>> > so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.
>> >
>> > The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
>> > perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
>> > scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
>> > .25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.
>>
>>
>> -- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

>> John Rutz
>> Z5 New Mexico
>>

>Tom,
>I don't buy the ammonia theory.
>0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to kill
>so quickly.

Ditto. I imagine some of that ammonia came from the dead fish itself anyway.

[Anne Lurie]

Trash bag???

[Sorry, I'd been having trouble keeping with all the volume here, so I
missed that part.]

Timothy, when you you use an ice-filled trash bag to cool down your pond?
Before the original fish-dying problem, or well after that? If you put the
trash bag in the pond after the original problem, then disregard the rest of
my post.

Trash bags are (I think) made of recycled low-density polyethylene (LDPE),
which should not in itself cause a problem. However, I thought I read that
somewhere that trash bags are actually coated on the outside with a powder
of some sort, either to facilitate the manufacturing process and/or to make
it possible for us consumers to get the bags off a roll -- especially if
you use the kind I do that don't need to be torn off a roll.

I guess maybe I spent too much time watching Industry on Parade on TV when I
was a kid; also, my dad was a plastics engineer, so I tend to think along
strange lines sometimes. OTOH, I can also tell you why aluminum foil is
shiny on 1 side & dull on the other (or at least I heard a reasonable
explanation).

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
om...
> Another update:
>
> A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
> inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
> other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
> that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
> killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
> kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
> temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
> although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
> went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
> with kitchen faucet water were fine.
>
> After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
> determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
> with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
> noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
> sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
> in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
> liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
> the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
> it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
> since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
> but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
> pond liner does quickly kill fish.
>
> As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
> posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
> the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
> liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
> our shape and it is 250 gallons.
>
> I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
> the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

[Timothy Tom]

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

[Timothy Tom]

EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

[Axolotl]

(Timothy Tom) wrote in news:ff44f110.0308151405.36de82b4
@posting.google.com:

> Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
> Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
> never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
> continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
> the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
> empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
> system off.

suggest you don't refill using the auto fill. use a hose from the kitchen
tape, or somewhere that you know the water is good. I am still very
suspicious of the auto-fill set-up, just because it was turning it back
on that started this problem off.

[Nedra]

Hallelujah !!!! ~~~~ Nedra


"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
om...
> EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!
>
> Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
> which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
> onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
> the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
> I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
> the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
> it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
> to the fish (until this recent problem).
>
> When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
> autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
> completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
> filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
> bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
> to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
> communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
> landed.
>
> I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
> off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
> found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

[K30a]

>>> EUREKA!!!! <<
:-)
hope this is the answer!


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Timothy Tom]

Just a quote from the Newsgroups regarding the active ingredient in
Wasp spray and fish toxicity. By the way, the goldfish has survived
over 6 hours in the pond, well past the normal "death time" of two
hours, so I believe the residual wasp spray is the culprit.
Interestingly the poster quoted below says the active ingredient does
not persist in the environment very long.

Almost nothing more toxic to fish than pyrethroids, the type of poison
in wasp spray. Some pyrethroids are so toxic to
fish that the amount needed to kill the fish cannot be measured in the
water (part per trillion).

Check the label, if it says something like "resmethrin, permethrin,
tetramethrin, or any other -methrin", keep it far away
from the fish pond.

We spray wasps out in the lake with soap. Doesn't work very fast, but
it works.

For koi ponds, something like malathion or Dylox will kill the wasps,
but also not quickly. Those are not very toxic to
fish. Even rotenone (commonly used to kill fish) is not very toxic to
fish, takes a lot to kill them.

You might try orthene, smells bad, but not very toxic to fish, also
not fast at killing wasps.

Pyrethroids work very fast, are not very toxic to mammals, do not
persist in the environment, and are fairly "safe" as such
things go, just not for fish.

[jammer]

Yes, I would dig out the contaminated dirt.




On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:50:24 GMT, "Anne Lurie" >
wrote:

>I'm glad to hear that the fish-killing problem has been identified.
>
>However, IMHO, the next step would be to deal with the
>pesticide-contaminated soil.
>
>Stepping down from my soap box for tonight,
>
>[sorry, it's been a tough week for me -- started with blaster worm & ended
>with blackout-stranded relatives I was unable to reach because of blackout,
>etc.]
>
>G'night all,
>
>Anne Lurie
>Raleigh, NC
>
>
>"Timothy Tom" > wrote in message
om...
>> EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

[GD]

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

>EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!
>
>Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
>which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
>onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
>the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
>I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
>the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
>it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
>to the fish (until this recent problem).
>
>When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
>autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
>completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
>filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
>bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
>to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
>communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
>landed.
>
>I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
>off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
>found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!


A follow up question: when you put water from the pond into a bowl
and lost a fish, did you treat the water with dechlor after it was in
the bowl?

[MattO]

Tom,
Thanks, but to clarify, and to any impressionable newbies still following
this thread, let me add that like Tom, I do not condone or recommend
exposing any fish to any measurable levels of ammonia. In small levels it
harms and compromises fish, in higher levels it just kills. And IMHO
nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship. I just felt the need to respond to
several people who had posted things like "that amount of ammonia is deadly
". So in pointing Timothy Tom to the reference on theKrib suggesting that
the levels reported were not high enough to explain the repeated sudden
deaths, I should have added - Slow torturous horrible death - yes
probably - just not sudden death.
~ MattO

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> MatO,
>
> You are correct, according to Russo and Thurston in a 1991 study found
that
> KOI can sustain ammonia levels of 2.2 ppm for 96 hours before dying. Of
> course, this does not mean that they won't be affected in some ways with
> ammonia burns etc. and that some weaker fish may die sooner, but, for the
> most part health fish can live in the environment for this short period.
>
> Also, it should be considered that ammonia is very lethal and should be
> maintained below .5ppm. Ammonia is more lethal at high pH while Nitrites
> are more lethal a lower pH.
>
> As far as I can see by the thread Tim's Ammonia is no where near lethal
> levels.
>
> Tom L.L.
> "MattO" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "john rutz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Timothy Tom wrote:
> > > > TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:
> > > >
> > > > O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two
hours.
> > > > Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48
hours,
> > > > so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.
> > > >
> > > > The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured
at
> > > > perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
> > > > scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at
between
> > > > .25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley
> >
> > > John Rutz
> > > Z5 New Mexico
> > >
> >
> > Tom,
> > I don't buy the ammonia theory.
> > 0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to
> kill
> > so quickly.
> > If it were no fish would ever survive a cycle, right?
> > Temp & pH factor into toxicity of ammonia, but extrapolating from table
in
> > http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html#how-much-ammonia
> > pH of 7.7, even at 83F, 0.5 ppm is not off the chart, is it?
> > Count me in the leaching septic or fertilizers camp
> > ~ MattO
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Karen Mullen]

In article >,
(Timothy Tom) writes:

>There is not a whole lot else to test now.
>

how is the pond edged? could a plant (weed) be leaching something into the
water? how about spraying for mosquitoes. having lived in TX for 20 years
they sprayed at night. could it be that spray has settled on edging? plants
in the pond?

BTW my fish had no problems with 85 degree water, but I would add a spitted to
help keep it cooler, never lost a fish.

Just a few more thoughts.
Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K.M.Studios/K.M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

[MattO]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:57:37 GMT, "MattO"
> wrote:
>
> > And IMHO nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any
measurable
> >ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
> >until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that
may
> >prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.
>
> From the KHA program we learned that in cases of ammonia, doing water
> changes could make things worst. This surprised me to, but as you mention:
>
> >And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
> >temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship.
>
> This is where people get in trouble with ammonia showing on the test and
> doing a water change. Take the pond that has had a pH crash,
bio-filtration
> stops as the bio-bugs don't like that low pH either, thus the ammonia
> reading goes up. The ammonia though isn't toxic, or is less so, the lower
> the pH. So if you do a large water change, upping that pH suddenly the
> ammonia becomes toxic. Better is to detox the ammonia with a product like
> Amquel or similar. Nitrite can be overcome with salt in the pond. (I do
> believe there is a formula regarding how much salt to nitrite reading, I
> think someone even posted that here not too long ago.) Anyway, doing these
> things (addition of amquel & salt) allows for the water change and also
> does not slow the cycle, if that is the reason for the spikes. If it's a
pH
> crash, then we do a KH check and fit that too. :o) ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

Jan,
Interesting info - thanks
As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
plea no contest to over-generalization re: always recommend massive water
changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.

Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite? Is
nitrite still measurable after salt treatment (like nessler & salicylate
ammonia test is after ammo-lock) and at what levels would you recommend
water change?
~ MattO

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:39:16 GMT, "MattO" > wrote:

>Jan,
>Interesting info - thanks
>As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
>plea no contest to over-generalization re: always recommend massive water
>changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
>lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
>with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.
>
>Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
>ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
>with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
>phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
>spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
>death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite?

Well, while cycling my Q-tank my nitrite was off the test kit chart and I
had salt over 0.3%, the fish survived, but I'm not even sure that was
enough salt. Hopefully the person who showed nitrite to salt ratio chart
will post that again.

Regarding aquariums though, having a few goldfish ones myself, I agree it
seems to be easier to do WCs, but I had one stubborn tank that would not
cycle after I brought the fish back from a show, and it wasn't till someone
here said to stop the daily WCs and use my pond Amquel, took only a couple
of days after that to see marked improvement in the cycle.

Even in aquariums you can get in trouble with the ammonia/pH situation. In
a case of the right hand (me) forgetting what the left hand did (my son).
My son takes care of the filters, and he cleaned one just a day or two
before I did my routine WCs on all the tanks. Because my KH seems to
decrease after several WCs I usually add a little baking soda and this
happened to be the WC when it was needed. Next morning, dead fish in that
tank. He had cleaned the filter, I had ammonia showing without knowing it,
but the low pH made it non-toxic till I: 1) did the WC and 2) increased the
pH even more with baking soda. I now pay more attention to what filter-boy
does.

>nitrite still measurable after salt treatment

Yes.

>and at what levels would you recommend
>water change? ~ MattO

Probably at 1ppm and up. The nitrite cycle doesn't take near as long as the
ammonia one, so I've experienced. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website