Re: frost lines and shallow ponds

[Bob in PA]

Hi Pat,

I live in Levittown, right outside of Philly. I've had ice as thick as
8 inchs on my pond. Is your pond above ground or buried in it? With the
above ground pond your going to have to worry about ice forming on the sides
to, and an above ground pond will get colder a lot quicker too.
You might not want to leave the waterfall/stream running because it
could form an ice dam, and divert the flow of the water out of the pond.

hth,

Bob

--

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"O3raledale" > wrote in message
...
> Hello all,
> How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country?
I
> live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my
goldies
> be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?
Can I
> leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
> spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?
Please
> let me know your thoughts on this matter.
> Thank you all,
> -Pat

[O3raledale]

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
-Pat


Hi Pat,

I live in Levittown, right outside of Philly. I've had ice as thick as
8 inchs on my pond. Is your pond above ground or buried in it? With the
above ground pond your going to have to worry about ice forming on the sides
to, and an above ground pond will get colder a lot quicker too.
You might not want to leave the waterfall/stream running because it
could form an ice dam, and divert the flow of the water out of the pond.

hth,

Bob

[O3raledale]

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
-Pat


Hi Pat,

I live in Levittown, right outside of Philly. I've had ice as thick as
8 inchs on my pond. Is your pond above ground or buried in it? With the
above ground pond your going to have to worry about ice forming on the sides
to, and an above ground pond will get colder a lot quicker too.
You might not want to leave the waterfall/stream running because it
could form an ice dam, and divert the flow of the water out of the pond.

hth,

Bob

[[email protected]]

careful you dont drain all the water out of the pond as it may form ice will send it
outside the stream. Ingrid


(O3raledale) wrote:

>Bob,
> Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
>stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
>see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
>keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
>thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
>-Pat


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

careful you dont drain all the water out of the pond as it may form ice will send it
outside the stream. Ingrid


(O3raledale) wrote:

>Bob,
> Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
>stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
>see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
>keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
>thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
>-Pat


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Anne Lurie]

Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"O3raledale" > wrote in message
...
> Hello all,
> How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country?
I
> live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my
goldies
> be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?
Can I
> leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
> spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?
Please
> let me know your thoughts on this matter.
> Thank you all,
> -Pat

[Anne Lurie]

Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"O3raledale" > wrote in message
...
> Hello all,
> How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country?
I
> live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my
goldies
> be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?
Can I
> leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
> spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?
Please
> let me know your thoughts on this matter.
> Thank you all,
> -Pat

[O3raledale]

<<Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie>>

Anne,
I was thinking that as the winter progressed and got and stayed colder that the
frost line (ie frozen ground) would get deeper and deeper. And I was hoping
that the 18" depth would be deep enough so as not to freeze the pond solid (or
close to it) If it was going to be a danger to the fishies, then I was thinking
of just bringing them in the house into an aquarium. But, it appears from what
I've read here that I should be fine with just an air pump/bubbler with a
couple of air stones submerged in the pond. Although I will keep an eye on it
and run out and get a heater if necessary.
Thanks for your thoughts,
-Pat

[O3raledale]

<<Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie>>

Anne,
I was thinking that as the winter progressed and got and stayed colder that the
frost line (ie frozen ground) would get deeper and deeper. And I was hoping
that the 18" depth would be deep enough so as not to freeze the pond solid (or
close to it) If it was going to be a danger to the fishies, then I was thinking
of just bringing them in the house into an aquarium. But, it appears from what
I've read here that I should be fine with just an air pump/bubbler with a
couple of air stones submerged in the pond. Although I will keep an eye on it
and run out and get a heater if necessary.
Thanks for your thoughts,
-Pat

[[email protected]]

the air temp is going to determine how deep the frost is going into the ground.
everyone in the "north" depend to a very great extent on the warm earth (55o) keeping
the water liquid. if the frost goes lower than the depth of the pond it is going to
be like trying to keep an above ground pond thawed. bocu electrical bills. Ingrid

>I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
>if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
>more important than the depth of the frost line?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

the air temp is going to determine how deep the frost is going into the ground.
everyone in the "north" depend to a very great extent on the warm earth (55o) keeping
the water liquid. if the frost goes lower than the depth of the pond it is going to
be like trying to keep an above ground pond thawed. bocu electrical bills. Ingrid

>I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
>if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
>more important than the depth of the frost line?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[John Bachman]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:52:39 GMT, wrote:

>the air temp is going to determine how deep the frost is going into the ground.
>everyone in the "north" depend to a very great extent on the warm earth (55o) keeping
>the water liquid. if the frost goes lower than the depth of the pond it is going to
>be like trying to keep an above ground pond thawed. bocu electrical bills. Ingrid

I do not think that the frost line in the ground necessarily reflects
the ice depth in the pond. The difference is that the pond water
moves. Water gets to its maximum density at 39 degrees F, 7 degrees
above freezing. So there is a constant exchange between top and
bottom. That does not happen in the soil.

The end result is that pond ice builds much slower than soil freezing.

JMHO

John

[John Bachman]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:52:39 GMT, wrote:

>the air temp is going to determine how deep the frost is going into the ground.
>everyone in the "north" depend to a very great extent on the warm earth (55o) keeping
>the water liquid. if the frost goes lower than the depth of the pond it is going to
>be like trying to keep an above ground pond thawed. bocu electrical bills. Ingrid

I do not think that the frost line in the ground necessarily reflects
the ice depth in the pond. The difference is that the pond water
moves. Water gets to its maximum density at 39 degrees F, 7 degrees
above freezing. So there is a constant exchange between top and
bottom. That does not happen in the soil.

The end result is that pond ice builds much slower than soil freezing.

JMHO

John

[dkat]

Call a builder and ask how deep a foundation has to be (they have to be
built below the frost line). DK
"Doug Swetland" > wrote in message
...
> O3raledale wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> > How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the
country? I
> > live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my
goldies
> > be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?
Can I
> > leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point
of
> > spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?
Please
> > let me know your thoughts on this matter.
> > Thank you all,
> > -Pat
> >
>
> Pat,
>
> You could check with the state department of natural resources (if PA
> has one) or the county agricultural agent. They might know something
> about average ice depths on ponds.
>
> The frost line in Minnesota is nearly four feet and my partially above
> ground pond (10 feet by 15 feet by 3 feet) gets about one foot of ice in
> an average year. The real variables are the air temperature and the
> amount of snow cover. I usually have a couple of feet of snow on my
> pond and that is a great insulator. By March it is hard to tell where
> the ice stops and the snow starts.
>
> I use a 1200 watt de-icer to keep a one foot hole (looks like a cave)
> open in the ice for gas exchange. It turns on at 32 degrees and off at
> 34 degrees and uses about the same amount of electricity as my 700 watt
> 4000 gph pump. The pump is on a timer and only runs 16 hours a day June
> through October.
>
> This setup has worked well for six winters. Except for the year the
> de-icer sank to the bottom and the hole froze solid. I didn't notice
> that for a couple of weeks and all the fish died. I now prop it up with
> a column of bricks.
>
> The problem with me bringing the fish indoors is they have to be out by
> October and don't get back in until June. What's the point in having
> fish in the pond for only four months?
>
> With only 18 inches you don't have much room for error if you get six
> inches of ice. The volume of water and number of fish are also
> important variables.
>
> I'd give it a shot with the air bubbler and see what happens. If it
> doesn't keep a hole open be ready to add a de-icer. However, don't keep
> the falls/stream going until it freezes unless you have an automatic
> level switch. Otherwise it will freeze some night at 2:00 am and you'll
> wake up with an ice skating rink in the back yard, a burnt out pump and
> frozen fish for breakfast.
>
> dss
>

[dkat]

Call a builder and ask how deep a foundation has to be (they have to be
built below the frost line). DK
"Doug Swetland" > wrote in message
...
> O3raledale wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> > How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the
country? I
> > live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my
goldies
> > be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?
Can I
> > leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point
of
> > spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?
Please
> > let me know your thoughts on this matter.
> > Thank you all,
> > -Pat
> >
>
> Pat,
>
> You could check with the state department of natural resources (if PA
> has one) or the county agricultural agent. They might know something
> about average ice depths on ponds.
>
> The frost line in Minnesota is nearly four feet and my partially above
> ground pond (10 feet by 15 feet by 3 feet) gets about one foot of ice in
> an average year. The real variables are the air temperature and the
> amount of snow cover. I usually have a couple of feet of snow on my
> pond and that is a great insulator. By March it is hard to tell where
> the ice stops and the snow starts.
>
> I use a 1200 watt de-icer to keep a one foot hole (looks like a cave)
> open in the ice for gas exchange. It turns on at 32 degrees and off at
> 34 degrees and uses about the same amount of electricity as my 700 watt
> 4000 gph pump. The pump is on a timer and only runs 16 hours a day June
> through October.
>
> This setup has worked well for six winters. Except for the year the
> de-icer sank to the bottom and the hole froze solid. I didn't notice
> that for a couple of weeks and all the fish died. I now prop it up with
> a column of bricks.
>
> The problem with me bringing the fish indoors is they have to be out by
> October and don't get back in until June. What's the point in having
> fish in the pond for only four months?
>
> With only 18 inches you don't have much room for error if you get six
> inches of ice. The volume of water and number of fish are also
> important variables.
>
> I'd give it a shot with the air bubbler and see what happens. If it
> doesn't keep a hole open be ready to add a de-icer. However, don't keep
> the falls/stream going until it freezes unless you have an automatic
> level switch. Otherwise it will freeze some night at 2:00 am and you'll
> wake up with an ice skating rink in the back yard, a burnt out pump and
> frozen fish for breakfast.
>
> dss
>