Cold question

[Gabrielle]

I have a young friend who just bought a house with a small pond -- he
ignored it at first and then got porged. I give him some rosy reds and
he bought a dozen feeder GF. Now he's worried about their winter
comfort. We're in southern Arizona so they won't get too cold, but he's
still concerned.

Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
up with a quick answer.

I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.

Comments?

Gabrielle
in sunny Arizona where the air is 51F and the water is 49F.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Running water exposed to cool air will cool down faster and therefore be
colder sooner than a still pond. At your temps I don't think you need to
worry. If he has a bio-filter connected to the fountain he is better off
letting it run 24/7. He needs to get a thermometer for his pond and learn
by experience how his pond is affected by the micro-climate around him.
~ jan

>On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>I have a young friend who just bought a house with a small pond -- he
>ignored it at first and then got porged. I give him some rosy reds and
>he bought a dozen feeder GF. Now he's worried about their winter
>comfort. We're in southern Arizona so they won't get too cold, but he's
>still concerned.
>
>Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
>been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
>running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
>up with a quick answer.
>
>I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
>do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.
>
>Comments?
>
>Gabrielle
>in sunny Arizona where the air is 51F and the water is 49F.

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Ka30P]

Best to leave the water still
and use a bubbler at the top. Gives the
water a chance to go into layers.
Often the bottom layer is warmer
than the top layer.
A bigger concern is if your friend has
too many fish in his small pond. Overcrowding
causes lots of problems.
Fish just slow down in the cold, they don't
feel chilly like we do when we look down at
them in that cold water!

ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Hal]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
>been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
>running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
>up with a quick answer.
>
>I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
>do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.

The reason water running through pipes doesn't freeze is because the
water coming out of the ground to the pipes is warmer than freezing
temperatures. Still pond water will have warm spots, but running the
pond pump, water will tend to be uniformly cooler because of the
circulation. There is more usable oxygen availiable in cooler water
and unless he has a freezing problem or overstocked pond there is no
reason he has to run anything in the winter if he wants to shut it
down. Ponders up North keep a bubbler to allow gases to escape
through the hole in the ice. I have a bubbler because I'm too lazy
to change it and just let it run. I also allow the pump to circulate
the water all the time because I don't have to change it.
Zone 8 Georgia lows in the 20's highs in the 60's ready for Spring.
Water temperature, warm enough the fish are still eating. I have to
get my hand wet to read the actual temperature.

Today was ten hours and three minutes. Three minutes longer than
yesterday. I'm ready for Spring.

Regards,

Hal

[RichToyBox]

Evaporation causes cooling that is faster than the direct conduction of heat
from the pond to the air. In southern Arizona, many years ago, we used
swamp coolers for our air conditioning. The water falling over a waterfall,
or tumbling down a stream, or being shot into the air for a fountain, has a
higher surface area than the pond, and therefore will have higher
evaporations than the pond alone. The pond will be cooler with the
fountain, stream or waterfall running than without. If the pond temperature
is above 50 degrees, then the fish should be being fed, and the filter needs
to be running if the fish are feeding. The filter should not be cycled on
and off. It will go anaerobic during the shutdown, producing hydrogen
sulfide gas which is very toxic to the fish, and the filter bacteria will
die back such that the nitrogen cycle is not taken care of. I know people
up north turn off the filter for the winter, and that is because of the
potential of freezing pipes in a power outage, or ice buildup at the
waterfall that can cause the water to be diverted from the pond. I
definitely would not turn off the filter unless the pond temperature falls
below 40 degrees, which is the temperature that the filter bacteria are
reported to die off.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Gabrielle" > wrote in message
...
> I have a young friend who just bought a house with a small pond -- he
> ignored it at first and then got porged. I give him some rosy reds and
> he bought a dozen feeder GF. Now he's worried about their winter
> comfort. We're in southern Arizona so they won't get too cold, but he's
> still concerned.
>
> Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
> been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
> running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
> up with a quick answer.
>
> I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
> do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.
>
> Comments?
>
> Gabrielle
> in sunny Arizona where the air is 51F and the water is 49F.
>

[Gabrielle]

Thanks -- I'll suggest he get a thermometer. I think his filter is
separate from the waterfall, something he added when he put fish in the
pond which was just a water feature before, but I'm not sure.

Gabrielle

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>Running water exposed to cool air will cool down faster and therefore be
>colder sooner than a still pond. At your temps I don't think you need to
>worry. If he has a bio-filter connected to the fountain he is better off
>letting it run 24/7. He needs to get a thermometer for his pond and learn
>by experience how his pond is affected by the micro-climate around him.
> ~ jan
>
>
>
>>On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>I have a young friend who just bought a house with a small pond -- he
>>ignored it at first and then got porged. I give him some rosy reds and
>>he bought a dozen feeder GF. Now he's worried about their winter
>>comfort. We're in southern Arizona so they won't get too cold, but he's
>>still concerned.
>>
>>Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
>>been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
>>running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
>>up with a quick answer.
>>
>>I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
>>do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.
>>
>>Comments?
>>
>>Gabrielle
>>in sunny Arizona where the air is 51F and the water is 49F.
>>
>>
>
>See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Defrosted~
> Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>
>

[Gabrielle]

Thanks!
I'd hoped to give him a few of my GF (about 18 months old) with the
minnows, because my little 500 gallon pond is a bit crowded, but he
couldn't catch them and got impatient. No one believes that those little
feeders will grow so much.

Gabrielle

Ka30P wrote:

>Best to leave the water still
>and use a bubbler at the top. Gives the
>water a chance to go into layers.
>Often the bottom layer is warmer
>than the top layer.
>A bigger concern is if your friend has
>too many fish in his small pond. Overcrowding
>causes lots of problems.
>Fish just slow down in the cold, they don't
>feel chilly like we do when we look down at
>them in that cold water!
>
>ka30p
>http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html
>
>

[Gabrielle]

Hal wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:33:02 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Someone told him that running water is warmer than still water, so he's
>>been running his waterfall 24-7. This doesn't sound right to me, I think
>>running water is cooler. I've googled and asked Jeeves, but haven't come
>>up with a quick answer.
>>
>>I think he'd be fine leaving it off at night, which is what he'd like to
>>do, especially since he does have a bubbler running separately.
>>
>>
>
>The reason water running through pipes doesn't freeze is because the
>water coming out of the ground to the pipes is warmer than freezing
>temperatures. Still pond water will have warm spots, but running the
>pond pump, water will tend to be uniformly cooler because of the
>circulation. There is more usable oxygen availiable in cooler water
>and unless he has a freezing problem or overstocked pond there is no
>reason he has to run anything in the winter if he wants to shut it
>down. Ponders up North keep a bubbler to allow gases to escape
>through the hole in the ice. I have a bubbler because I'm too lazy
>to change it and just let it run. I also allow the pump to circulate
>the water all the time because I don't have to change it.
> Zone 8 Georgia lows in the 20's highs in the 60's ready for Spring.
>Water temperature, warm enough the fish are still eating. I have to
>get my hand wet to read the actual temperature.
>
>Today was ten hours and three minutes. Three minutes longer than
>yesterday. I'm ready for Spring.
>
>Regards,
>
>Hal
>
Thanks for the lucid explanation. I'll pass it on to my friend.

I leave my little waterfall running all year, because it links the
veggie filter and pond, and my fish & turtles are fine. But Robert is as
worried as a new mother. :-)

Gabrielle, also ready for Spring, but not Summer

[Gabrielle]

A swamp cooler is the explantion I offered him -- in fact, his waterfall
runs off a swamp cooler pump! His filter, as I understand it, is
separate. I've slowed down my feeding, but my fish are still interested
on warmer days. I am feeding pellets that are labeled for fall and easy
to digest. Most days the water is over 50 degrees but we've had a few
dips under.

Thanks!

Gabrielle

RichToyBox wrote:

>Evaporation causes cooling that is faster than the direct conduction of heat
>from the pond to the air. In southern Arizona, many years ago, we used
>swamp coolers for our air conditioning. The water falling over a waterfall,
>or tumbling down a stream, or being shot into the air for a fountain, has a
>higher surface area than the pond, and therefore will have higher
>evaporations than the pond alone. The pond will be cooler with the
>fountain, stream or waterfall running than without. If the pond temperature
>is above 50 degrees, then the fish should be being fed, and the filter needs
>to be running if the fish are feeding. The filter should not be cycled on
>and off. It will go anaerobic during the shutdown, producing hydrogen
>sulfide gas which is very toxic to the fish, and the filter bacteria will
>die back such that the nitrogen cycle is not taken care of. I know people
>up north turn off the filter for the winter, and that is because of the
>potential of freezing pipes in a power outage, or ice buildup at the
>waterfall that can cause the water to be diverted from the pond. I
>definitely would not turn off the filter unless the pond temperature falls
>below 40 degrees, which is the temperature that the filter bacteria are
>reported to die off.
>
>