High Nitrate Level for Koi

[MC]

I brought my Koi indoors for the winter and am experiencing high
nitrate levels although I believe I have sufficient filtration. I have
read this isn't a big problem in some places, but on the test strips
and elsewhere read it was unsafe. I have about 100-150PPM. Is this
something to worry about? Nitrites are almost non-existent and PH is
fine.

[Andy Hill]

(MC) wrote:
>I brought my Koi indoors for the winter and am experiencing high
>nitrate levels although I believe I have sufficient filtration. I have
>read this isn't a big problem in some places, but on the test strips
>and elsewhere read it was unsafe. I have about 100-150PPM. Is this
>something to worry about? Nitrites are almost non-existent and PH is
>fine.
>
Yeah, that's a problem. Start doing water changes to drive it down to something
more reasonable (BTW, filtration does very little for nitrates -- they're the
end product of the nitrogen cycle. You either have to have lots of green
growing stuff to suck up the nitrates, or do water changes to dilute them).

[[email protected]]

yup, big water changes and quit feeding them low quality food and as much food.
welcome to the world of aquariums. Ingrid

Andy Hill > wrote:

(MC) wrote:
>>I brought my Koi indoors for the winter and am experiencing high
>>nitrate levels although I believe I have sufficient filtration. I have
>>read this isn't a big problem in some places, but on the test strips
>>and elsewhere read it was unsafe. I have about 100-150PPM. Is this
>>something to worry about? Nitrites are almost non-existent and PH is
>>fine.
>>
>Yeah, that's a problem. Start doing water changes to drive it down to something
>more reasonable (BTW, filtration does very little for nitrates -- they're the
>end product of the nitrogen cycle. You either have to have lots of green
>growing stuff to suck up the nitrates, or do water changes to dilute them).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[MC]

What do you mean by "low quality food"? What types of food helps keep
the nitrates low?

wrote in message >...
> yup, big water changes and quit feeding them low quality food and as much food.
> welcome to the world of aquariums. Ingrid
>
> Andy Hill > wrote:
>
> (MC) wrote:
> >>I brought my Koi indoors for the winter and am experiencing high
> >>nitrate levels although I believe I have sufficient filtration. I have
> >>read this isn't a big problem in some places, but on the test strips
> >>and elsewhere read it was unsafe. I have about 100-150PPM. Is this
> >>something to worry about? Nitrites are almost non-existent and PH is
> >>fine.
> >>
> >Yeah, that's a problem. Start doing water changes to drive it down to something
> >more reasonable (BTW, filtration does very little for nitrates -- they're the
> >end product of the nitrogen cycle. You either have to have lots of green
> >growing stuff to suck up the nitrates, or do water changes to dilute them).
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Iain Miller]

"MC" > wrote in message
...
> What do you mean by "low quality food"? What types of food helps keep
> the nitrates low?

I don't see the food quality as having anything to do with Nitrates though
excess feed can promote a rise in Phosphates in the Aquarium
world....Nitrates are just the end product from any mature bio filter -
Ammonia, Nitrites & then Nitrates.

There are a few other things you can do to help deal with Nitrates....

1) Buy something like a Nitragon or Nitraking Nitrate filter....usually used
for tap water to prepare Nitrate free water for aquariums. You can stick one
on a pump but it needs to be quite powerfull (in aquarium terms - nothing
like a pond pump!)

2) Buy some "Nitrazorb" - works on the same principle as above but goes in
the filter (or can just sit in the water - its in a porous sachet). You'd
probably need quite a lot of it (depending on how much water you are dealing
with) and its not cheap.

Both of these are Ion exchange filters i.e. they need to be recharged with
salt water (much like a domestic water softener) periodically. Something
like a Nitragon will give you roughly 75-100 gallons of Nitrate free tap
water before it needs a recharge though you can get bigger units.

Option 3 is to run up a bacterial nitrate filter. Do a google search for
"Nitrate filter" and you will find some discussion about how these work &
links to sites detailing how you can build them fairly cheaply. They take a
week or 3 to run them up - basically you create an Anaerobic filter by
passing water through it very slowly - this becomes oxygen free as it passes
through the filter. You get bacteria building up which then eat Nitrate to
get Oxygen thus releasing Nitrogen. They can be tricky. Run it too slowly &
you get sulphur dioxide, too fast & the filter breaks down because you need
an oxygen free environment. You also have to feed the filter periodically
with Alcohol of some description (I think!)

A fourth option is to buy a sulphur based Nitrate filter. I have one of
these on a 75G fish tank which is heavily stocked & it has zero Nitrates.
This works in much the same way as option 3 above but does not require
feeding - the sulphur removes the need for this apparently. One "side
effect" of this type of filter is that it seems to strip the Kh buffer out
of the water - and does so quite quickly. As a result I add Baking Soda
(Bicarbonate of SOda) to my tank every few days. Its a bit of a pain BUT a
lot less aggravation than dealing with Nitrates by constantly changing
water. This side effect may apply to option 3 above as well - no direct
experience of use so I can't say!

HTH

rgds

Iain

[Tom La Bron]

Iain,

The options you mentioned are affective but not for the faint at heart. The
require a lot of tinkering.

You are also right in saying the food has nothing to do with nitrates.
Ingrid is always trying to put the blame on any food that is not high
protein and costs an arm and a leg. She is not a nutritionist and refuses
to read the literature about the needs of Goldfish and KOI, but keeps up her
diatribe along these lines blaming inexpensive foods for everything

If people would do the research they would find that common Goldfish and KOI
can handle much higher nitrates, but, like people, the fish are all
different and some are more susceptible than others thus showing reactions
to lower concentrations. Some Ornamental varieties of Goldfish seem to be
more prone to be affected by lower nitrate concentrations, but that have
never been proven or written in a lab research.

In any event, a simpler way to take care of nitrates is to put stems of
Philodendrons in your water and let them got to town. My nitrates are
virtually zero at all times and I have beautiful philodendrons growing
everywhere. Once the roots adapt to the water environment they do great.
The only other alternative is to do water changes, frequently, or use the
nitra-sorbs you mentioned. Which, in my opinion, is a needless expense,
when philodendrons do the job, virtually for free.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------
"Iain Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What do you mean by "low quality food"? What types of food helps keep
> > the nitrates low?
>
> I don't see the food quality as having anything to do with Nitrates though
> excess feed can promote a rise in Phosphates in the Aquarium
> world....Nitrates are just the end product from any mature bio filter -
> Ammonia, Nitrites & then Nitrates.
>
> There are a few other things you can do to help deal with Nitrates....
>
> 1) Buy something like a Nitragon or Nitraking Nitrate filter....usually
used
> for tap water to prepare Nitrate free water for aquariums. You can stick
one
> on a pump but it needs to be quite powerfull (in aquarium terms - nothing
> like a pond pump!)
>
> 2) Buy some "Nitrazorb" - works on the same principle as above but goes in
> the filter (or can just sit in the water - its in a porous sachet). You'd
> probably need quite a lot of it (depending on how much water you are
dealing
> with) and its not cheap.
>
> Both of these are Ion exchange filters i.e. they need to be recharged with
> salt water (much like a domestic water softener) periodically. Something
> like a Nitragon will give you roughly 75-100 gallons of Nitrate free tap
> water before it needs a recharge though you can get bigger units.
>
> Option 3 is to run up a bacterial nitrate filter. Do a google search for
> "Nitrate filter" and you will find some discussion about how these work &
> links to sites detailing how you can build them fairly cheaply. They take
a
> week or 3 to run them up - basically you create an Anaerobic filter by
> passing water through it very slowly - this becomes oxygen free as it
passes
> through the filter. You get bacteria building up which then eat Nitrate to
> get Oxygen thus releasing Nitrogen. They can be tricky. Run it too slowly
&
> you get sulphur dioxide, too fast & the filter breaks down because you
need
> an oxygen free environment. You also have to feed the filter periodically
> with Alcohol of some description (I think!)
>
> A fourth option is to buy a sulphur based Nitrate filter. I have one of
> these on a 75G fish tank which is heavily stocked & it has zero Nitrates.
> This works in much the same way as option 3 above but does not require
> feeding - the sulphur removes the need for this apparently. One "side
> effect" of this type of filter is that it seems to strip the Kh buffer out
> of the water - and does so quite quickly. As a result I add Baking Soda
> (Bicarbonate of SOda) to my tank every few days. Its a bit of a pain BUT a
> lot less aggravation than dealing with Nitrates by constantly changing
> water. This side effect may apply to option 3 above as well - no direct
> experience of use so I can't say!
>
> HTH
>
> rgds
>
> Iain
>
>
>

[Offbreed]

Tom La Bron wrote:

> You are also right in saying the food has nothing to do with nitrates.

I'm confused. Doesn't "high quality" usually mean "high protein"?
Isn't protein high in nitrogen? I know that the manure collectors in
olden China would get better prices for human **** collected from the
rich part of town because it made better fertilizer. Seems to me that
feeding better food would actually increase the pollution problem,
even if the quantity was reduced, due to the fish having such a short
intestine (low food conversion efficiency).

Of course, a "lower" quality food would have a higher roughage content
and produce a different problem to be cleaned up. OTOH, bacteria
attacking the undigested roughage should bind nitrogen, and reduce the
nitrate problem, wouldn't it?

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:01:51 -0900, Offbreed > wrote:

>I'm confused. Doesn't "high quality" usually mean "high protein"?

I don't think so. High quality feed is representative of the right feed for
the right animal for the right conditions.

>Isn't protein high in nitrogen? I know that the manure collectors in
>olden China would get better prices for human **** collected from the
>rich part of town because it made better fertilizer.

In the olden days this was probably true. Now days with all the fast food
junk, even in China, I would wonder.

>Of course, a "lower" quality food would have a higher roughage content
>and produce a different problem to be cleaned up. OTOH, bacteria
>attacking the undigested roughage should bind nitrogen, and reduce the
>nitrate problem, wouldn't it?

No, because bacteria break down the waste to ammonia, nitrite and finally
to nitrate, regardless of type. (At least that's my understanding.) Ideally
we try to supplement our fishes diet with high yield low waste feeds, they
should get roughage off of algae and bug exoskeletons. ;o)

Now if you want to talk fish food, let's talk about what they're feeding
the salmon that WE eat!!!! Between that & Mad Cow animal food producers
need some obviously looks over their shoulders. Sheesh!!!! ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Offbreed]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:01:51 -0900, Offbreed > wrote:

>>I'm confused. Doesn't "high quality" usually mean "high protein"?

> I don't think so. High quality feed is representative of the right feed for
> the right animal for the right conditions.

I'd thought so to start with, but it sounded too sensible.

> No, because bacteria break down the waste to ammonia, nitrite and finally
> to nitrate, regardless of type. (At least that's my understanding.) Ideally
> we try to supplement our fishes diet with high yield low waste feeds, they
> should get roughage off of algae and bug exoskeletons. ;o)

Ah. I was thinking of how adding uncomposted veg matter to a garden
would temporarily bind the free nitrogen in the soil. But,
"temporary", now you mention "finally".

> Now if you want to talk fish food, let's talk about what they're feeding
> the salmon that WE eat!!!!

Too expensive for my wallet <G>. I'd rather spring for a boat and go
catch my own salmon. (It only costs 10X as much that way, LOL)

"Tri-cities"? By the time the salmon get that far, bleh. "Pate in
skin". I understand you have some excellent bass fishing in the area,
though.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>"Tri-cities"? By the time the salmon get that far, bleh. "Pate in
>skin". I understand you have some excellent bass fishing in the area,
>though.

Naaa, the Columbia River is within sight of my house. I could have real
Native American caught salmon out of the back of their pickup trucks, if I
wanted to pay $2/lb for the whole dang fish with 5+ lb. head.

Instead I have been paying $3.49 for a boneless fillet, farm raised. Guess
it is Atlantic Salmon till they get this latest "kill the humans slowly"
situation under control. Doesn't compare to Copper River salmon out of
Alaska, but it will do. :o) ~ jan
~ jan

[[email protected]]

low quality food has a lot of carbohydrates and/or proteins in a form that is
undigestible by koi. basically, it goes in one end and out the other without being
well digested and utilized. high quality koi food is both high in protein, but also
the first couple ingredients (indicating the most) are protein sources that come from
the water ... like whitefish, fish meal, krill, etc. if corn is the first
ingredient, the food is low quality as that is both complex carbohydrate and land
based plant.
the idea is to feed high quality, but very little of it at a time. that way the food
is completely digested and what comes out isnt such great food for bacteria to
convert to wastes. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
>What do you mean by "low quality food"? What types of food helps keep
>the nitrates low?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

quality refers to both protein, fat and source of food (water based) and that the
overall balance of nutrients are specific for fish (not cats, dogs, birds, etc).
that digestibility is specific for fish, not other animals.
Ahhhh... that is the other part of the equation. Feed only as much as can be
digested and USED by the fish.. that is the nitrogen is used to make proteins in the
fish.. not pooped out because it was so embedded in a huge quantity, or in so much
roughage and undigestible matter that it cannot be extracted in that "short trip"
down the koi gut. you are right, they have short intestines... but, in the wild they
have one of the highest food to mass conversions of all animals.. something like 2
lbs food to 1 lb muscle. one reason they dont NEED so much food, and definitely not
much food at a time. cycle bacteria cycle thru to nitrates, which they cannot use.
it is only anaerobic bacteria that can take nitrates and release as free nitrogen.
altho plants use nitrates very well. Ingrid

Offbreed > wrote:
>I'm confused. Doesn't "high quality" usually mean "high protein"?
>Isn't protein high in nitrogen?
Seems to me that
>feeding better food would actually increase the pollution problem,
>even if the quantity was reduced, due to the fish having such a short
>intestine (low food conversion efficiency).
>
>Of course, a "lower" quality food would have a higher roughage content
>and produce a different problem to be cleaned up. OTOH, bacteria
>attacking the undigested roughage should bind nitrogen, and reduce the
>nitrate problem, wouldn't it?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom La Bron]

Offbreed,

Just because a food has high protein does that make it high quality. My
point is that food doesn't have to high protein to be high quality. Plus,
as I have said before, Goldfish and/or KOI do not need high protein. A good
protein level is between 28 and 35% protein. You can have high quality
foods that don't have high protein levels. This high protein, high quality
mantra that Ingrid is always touting is nothing but horse pucky and the
research does not support it, in fact, it says just the opposite that lower
protein for an omnivore is appropriate. If you were keeping salmon or trout
in your pond then 50 and 60% would be good protein levels for these fish,
but they are carnivores. Goldfish are omnivores. High quality foods are
important but this doesn't mean high protein. There are plenty of high
quality foods out there that are not high in protein.

HTH

Tom L.L.


"Offbreed" > wrote in message
...
> Tom La Bron wrote:
>
> > You are also right in saying the food has nothing to do with nitrates.
>
> I'm confused. Doesn't "high quality" usually mean "high protein"?
> Isn't protein high in nitrogen? I know that the manure collectors in
> olden China would get better prices for human **** collected from the
> rich part of town because it made better fertilizer. Seems to me that
> feeding better food would actually increase the pollution problem,
> even if the quantity was reduced, due to the fish having such a short
> intestine (low food conversion efficiency).
>
> Of course, a "lower" quality food would have a higher roughage content
> and produce a different problem to be cleaned up. OTOH, bacteria
> attacking the undigested roughage should bind nitrogen, and reduce the
> nitrate problem, wouldn't it?
>

[Offbreed]

wrote:
> Feed only as much as can be digested and USED by the fish..

That implies several light feedings a day, then?

Okay, thanks. I see the disagreement.

Probably related note; The beta in the office died recently because
people kept feeding the poor thing. Huge pinches of food several times
a day. The water would require daily changes, and any water left
sitting for the fish got used in the coffee pot.

Ha, maybe I'll put a plastic fish in the tank, just to watch how much
food gets dumped in.

[Offbreed]

Tom La Bron wrote:

> Just because a food has high protein does that make it high quality. My
> point is that food doesn't have to high protein to be high quality. Plus,
> as I have said before, Goldfish and/or KOI do not need high protein.

Okay, I see the diff. (Part of my problem was how suppliers tend to
advertise.)

Thanks.

[[email protected]]

well only two are needed. actually, for koi outside once a day in the evening can do
it fine. most people vastly overfeed their koi. and this contributes to water
problems. Ingrid

Offbreed > wrote:
>That implies several light feedings a day, then?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Yeah, but.... if you have young small koi and want to see them grow fast,
when temperatures warrant, feed this every 2 hrs. just a few pellets per
fish. Works best when koi are in an aquarium that you walk by often and
they rush to the side when they see you coming and wag their tags like
puppies, you'll feed them every time. :o) ~ jan

>On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:02:39 GMT, wrote:

>well only two are needed. actually, for koi outside once a day in the evening can do
>it fine. most people vastly overfeed their koi. and this contributes to water
>problems. Ingrid
>
>Offbreed > wrote:
>>That implies several light feedings a day, then?
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.

~ jan