Burning Down the Pond

[Mike Patterson]

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Ken Russell]

Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-)

--
Ken Russell

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
| Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
| problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
| so now I'm thinking...
|
| How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
| put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
| pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
|
| I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
|
| Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
|
| Mike
| Mike Patterson
| Please remove the spamtrap to email me.


---
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[Just Me \Koi\]

So you just came back from Las Vegas and saw Mirage?

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> so now I'm thinking...
>
> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
> I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
> Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>
> Mike
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:43:53 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
> wrote:

>So you just came back from Las Vegas and saw Mirage?

Now that you mention it, I forgot that I did see something like that
about 4 years ago in LV, but don't remember too much about it.

Maybe that's where my subconscious got it from.


Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:25:57 +1100, "Ken Russell"
> wrote:

>Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-)

Well, the pond is about 1300 gallons, and heat rises, and it's
outside, so maybe it wouldn't raise the water temp much. I hope.

I think I'll do some experimentation first with a #10 washtub. See if
the water temp goes up, play with the effect, etc.

Might make a good bit for the web page too.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[John Hines]

Mike Patterson > wrote:

>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if
the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak.

>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Why not floating candles?

[Jim]

>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something
about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell)
being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of
our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten
much more about chemistry than I remember.

Jim
Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas
Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics:
http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248

[Mike Patterson]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:31 -0600, John Hines >
wrote:

>Mike Patterson > wrote:
>
>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if
>the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak.
>
>>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
>Why not floating candles?

'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
-cool- not -cute-. :-)

But I appreciate the thought.

I already have a gas grill spark igniter I've been playing with, I
could just mount it on a 5' stick to light the flame.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0500
Mike Patterson > wrote:

> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> so now I'm thinking...
>
> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
> I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
> Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>
> Mike

I think the bubbles would be too intermittent to hold the flame unless
you were running more gas than you'd care to. (Unless you use a bubble
diffuser?) Maybe run the pipe almost to the surface so there's more of
a steady gas stream? That'd cut down on the water/gas interaction, too,
in case of any adverse reactions with the pond environment.

Cybe R. Wizard -/wants/ to see it in action!
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

[Chagoi]

Mike Patterson wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:25:57 +1100, "Ken Russell"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-)
>
>
> Well, the pond is about 1300 gallons, and heat rises, and it's
> outside, so maybe it wouldn't raise the water temp much. I hope.
>

Mike

I put a concrete pad and gas line in next to where I am putting the new
pond in spring. I will be able to sit
in front of the campfire and watch the flames reflect off the pond and
the waterfall.

Here are some pics of the first design made from scrap parts.

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg


I also thought of putting one in the center of the 24' dia. area of the
new 12,000gal. pond.

I put a pdf file on my website so you can check out the gas Heat~N~Glo
Campfire base Retail Price $260.00
http://ourkoipond.com/Patio Campfire.pdf

You can build your own stone base around it or add their Rock Ring Fire
Pit Surround: Retail $210.00
See
http://www.heatnglo-lifestyle.com/customerCare/specsPricing/downloads/FirePitSpecs.pdf

This is a little too big for your 1300 gal pond, the fire base is 14"
square and the stone ring is 22" dia X 8" high.
But it's a thought.


Disclaimer == I have not, nor will I ever receive any compensation for
this recommendation.

CHAGOI
HTTP://OURKOIPOND.COM

[Chagoi]

Jim wrote:
>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>
> Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something
> about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell)
> being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of
> our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten
> much more about chemistry than I remember.
>
> Jim
> Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas
> Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics:
> http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248

ELEMENTS OF COMBUSTION OF NATURAL GAS

1 ft3 natural gas + 10 ft3 air + flame =
8 ft3 nitrogen +1 ft3 carbon dioxide + 2 ft3 water vapor


Gas + Air = Nitrogen + Carbon Dioxide + Water Vapor

NO Sulfur

Chagoi

[Chagoi]

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0500
> Mike Patterson > wrote:
>
>
>>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>>so now I'm thinking...
>>
>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>
>>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>>
>>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>>
>>Mike
>
>
> I think the bubbles would be too intermittent to hold the flame unless
> you were running more gas than you'd care to. (Unless you use a bubble
> diffuser?) Maybe run the pipe almost to the surface so there's more of
> a steady gas stream? That'd cut down on the water/gas interaction, too,
> in case of any adverse reactions with the pond environment.
>
> Cybe R. Wizard -/wants/ to see it in action!


LPG forms a flammable mixture when mixed with air.

The flammable range at ambient temperature and pressure extends between
approximately 2 % of the vapour in air
at its lower limit and approximately 10 % of the vapour in air at its
upper limit. Within this range there is a risk
of ignition.

Outside this range any mixture is either too weak or too rich to
propagate flame.
However, over-rich mixtures can become hazardous when diluted with air
and will also burn at the interface with air.


Air/Gas required for combustion (m3 to burn 1 m3 of gas)

Butane 30:1 Propane 24 :1 Natural Gas 10:1

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[Just Me \Koi\]

You are my kind of Dude, Dude!

Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!

Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
mess with gas or electricity!

For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:31 -0600, John Hines >
> wrote:
>
> >Mike Patterson > wrote:
> >
> >>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> >>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> >>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
> >
> >One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if
> >the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak.
> >
> >>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
> >
> >Why not floating candles?
>
> 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
> -cool- not -cute-. :-)
>
> But I appreciate the thought.
>
> I already have a gas grill spark igniter I've been playing with, I
> could just mount it on a 5' stick to light the flame.
>
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
"Just Me \"Koi\"" > wrote:

> If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!

DANG, I must be getting old.
I read that as, "...immolate you."

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

[Jim]

> NO Sulfur

Isn't Mercaptan used to provide the odor for natural gas? If so, it
contains sulfur.

What is Mercaptan?
Natural gas in its native state is colorless and odorless. Mercaptan
is the additive that is added to natural gas to make it easier to
detect in case of a leak. The most important thing to know about
mercaptan is that it stinks. Some people compare it to the smell of
rotten eggs.

In a concentrated form, its smell is almost unbearable. And it takes
only a few parts per million of mercaptan to give natural gas a smell.
That is precisely why we add it to natural gas. If we did not add
mercaptan, it would be hard for you to know that unlit natural gas was
coming from your stove after you left the valve turned on. And leaks
from furnaces and hot water heaters would be nearly impossible to
detect without expensive equipment. So mercaptan's smell is a very
valuable safety feature.

Mercaptans contain sulfur. That's what makes them smell. The kind we
use blends well with natural gas and, in a gaseous state, has much the
same properties as natural gas, so it will also rise and dissipate
with natural gas.

There are other uses for mercaptans in industry, including jet fuel,
pharmaceuticals and livestock feed additives. They are used in many
chemical plants. Mercaptans are less corrosive and less toxic than
similar sulfur compounds found naturally in rotten eggs, onions,
garlic, skunks, and, of course, bad breath. In other word, forms of
mercaptan can be found in things that smell.

Source:
http://www.columbiagaspamd.com/community_outreach/mercaptan.htm

Jim
Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas
Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics:
http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:56:33 -0500, in rec.ponds you wrote:

>Jim wrote:
>>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>
>>
>> Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something
>> about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell)
>> being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of
>> our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten
>> much more about chemistry than I remember.
>>
>> Jim
>> Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas
>> Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics:
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248
>
>ELEMENTS OF COMBUSTION OF NATURAL GAS
>
>1 ft3 natural gas + 10 ft3 air + flame =
>8 ft3 nitrogen +1 ft3 carbon dioxide + 2 ft3 water vapor
>
>
>Gas + Air = Nitrogen + Carbon Dioxide + Water Vapor
>
>NO Sulfur
>
>Chagoi

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 GMT, "Cybe R. Wizard"
<Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
>"Just Me \"Koi\"" > wrote:
>
>> If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!
>
>DANG, I must be getting old.
>I read that as, "...immolate you."
>
>Cybe R. Wizard

Well, I hope it wasn't a prophetic reading...especially since I'll be
experimenting with it for a bit.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
> wrote:

>You are my kind of Dude, Dude!
>
>Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!
>
>Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
>mess with gas or electricity!
>
>For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
>flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
>and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
>need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
>kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.
>
>If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!


I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
down the better.

Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to
investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap
goldfish anyway.)

I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then
I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[John Hines]

Mike Patterson > wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
> wrote:
>
>>You are my kind of Dude, Dude!
>>
>>Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!
>>
>>Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
>>mess with gas or electricity!
>>
>>For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
>>flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
>>and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
>>need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
>>kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.
>>
>>If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!
>
>
>I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
>down the better.

Check on the dissolvability of natural gas, and its components in water.
It has been a long time since chem class, I don't know. A lab with
bunsen burners would be really handy here, maybe you can get some HS
students interested in a little experiment. Or maybe ask in a chemistry
newsgroup.

You might also want to look at industrial supply sites, as burning off
excess gas is a common problem in oil production, and landfills.

Simply having the flame at pond level would be cool, think of the
eternal flame at Kennedy's grave site, except coming out of water, with
no visible means of support, just a flame coming out of the middle of
the pond.

>I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
>gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".

A really good idea.

>If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
>coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".

The under USD$2 per dozen goldfish sold for feeding other fish, work
well as pond fish. They grow up very nicely.

[John Hines]

Jim > wrote:

>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something
>about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell)
>being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of
>our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten
>much more about chemistry than I remember.

One can get tanks of any kind of gas one wants. If there is a problem
with contamination, get a tank of pure gas. Anything in the ane family
(methane, butane, propane) will do.

The ever present propane exchange cylinders come to mind. One would
almost certainly have legal liability issues connecting a home made
gizmo to the natural gas supply, which this would avoid.

A lot of hassles would be eliminated, at least at first, with a tank
setup. Don't bother running a permanent gas line, until the cost of the
tanks justifies it, and it doesn't wear out its welcome the first
season.

[John Hines]

Mike Patterson > wrote:

>'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
>-cool- not -cute-. :-)

Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines >
wrote:

>Mike Patterson > wrote:
>
>>'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
>>-cool- not -cute-. :-)
>
>Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
>collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)
>

That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
would it burn off the surface of the water?

Somehow I don't think that one will work...

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Andy Hill]

Mike Patterson > wrote:
>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>so now I'm thinking...
>
>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>
>Mike
>Mike Patterson
>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>
By bubbling the NG through the pond, some of it is going to diffuse into the
water. I doubt the fish would appreciate that any more than you would someone
leaving the gas on at the stove.

[Chagoi]

Mike Patterson wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
> > wrote:
>
>
>>You are my kind of Dude, Dude!
>>
>>Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you!
>>
>>Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to
>>mess with gas or electricity!
>>
>>For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas
>>flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water
>>and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will
>>need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid
>>kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department.
>>
>>If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!
>
>
>
> I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther
> down the better.
>
> Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to
> investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap
> goldfish anyway.)
>
> I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60
> gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond".
>
> If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a
> coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries".
>
> OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then
> I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish.
>
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
Mike

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...

While it may add sone excitement to the pond, I personally don't see it
as aesthetic (adding beauty) to the whole relaxing pond scene.
Like my campfire does. A fire ball display would be more for a special
occasion like a 4th of July Party. JMHO
Not to mention the possible adverse effects on any fish.
The repeated Mini explosions would be no different a scare than the
apperance of any preditor to your pond.

The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
an underwatergas well fire
where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
sq. ft.
Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.

Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
would be astronomical.
I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
For LPG here in eastern Pa.

My campfire produces 15,000 - 50,000 BTU's / hour
i gal. propane = 91,000 - 96,000 BTU (depending on the % of Butane
added in your area)
That is .16 - .49 gal of propane / hour
1# propane = 21,699 BTU
1# = .238 gal
1 - 20# BBQ tank = 4.75 gal = 433980 BTU
@15,000 BTUH 20# lasts 29 hours
@ $2.00/Gal it costs me $0.32 / hr to burn

@50,000 BTUH 20# lasts 8.6 hours
@ $2.00/gal it cost me $1.10 / hr to burn
************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************

All this just to say a gas flame is very hard to maintain, and control
with out:
1. a constant gas supply,
2. proper Air to Fuel ratio,

3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)
4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf

5. produce a constant flame



I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
but then,
AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;

http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

Sorry for the rambling

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:35:11 -0500, Chagoi
> wrote:

>Mike Patterson wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
>> > wrote:
>>
<snip>
>
>Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
>maintain a constant stream of gas.
>The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.
>
>The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
>To help maintain the flame.
> Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
> (ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
>flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
>You get the picture...

My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
"continuous flow" at the surface. to sustain the flame.

Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
<snip>

>The scale at which you will be using gas will not sustain a reliable flame.
>You are talking a few sq inches of area of flame as compared to a like
>an underwatergas well fire
> where the area for flame will be several hundred to several thousand
>sq. ft.
>Thus allowing a lot of opportunity for a flame to be maintained.
>
>Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
>would be astronomical.
>I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
>Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residentual rate.
>For LPG here in eastern Pa.

good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
else the testing should be entertaining.

>
<snip>
>
>3. small FIXED orifice size (thousands of an inch) \ (see figs.
>1&2 on page 5 of PatioCampfire.pdf)

well, I guess the orifice size I was planning would be about 250
square feet :-)

>4. a burner (Like on a gas range) / @
> http://ourkoipond.com/PatioCampfire.pdf
>
>5. produce a constant flame
>
>
>
>I have conceptual drawings for a FEFD (floating eternal flame device),
>but then,
>AT THE LEAST, the same 5 requirements I mentioned above still stand.
>Plus it has a peaceful, relaxing flame similar to these only smaller;
>
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg
>
>Sorry for the rambling
>
>Chagoi
>http://ourkoipond.com
>
>
That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
input!"


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[John Hines]

Mike Patterson > wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines >
>wrote:
>
>>Mike Patterson > wrote:
>>
>>>'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
>>>-cool- not -cute-. :-)
>>
>>Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
>>collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)
>>
>
>That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
>get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.

Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
it will disappear from sight.

>Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
>would it burn off the surface of the water?

Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
historical source of portable flammable gas.

[Anne Lurie]

What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> so now I'm thinking...
>
> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
> I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
> Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>
> Mike
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:14:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
> wrote:

>What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
>*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?
>
>Anne Lurie
>Raleigh, NC
>

Why yes, I would. :-)

However, I was planning to only have the flame running when I was
around to watch it anyway. Toooo much $$ otherwise.

Thanks for the input. The more problems folks think of, the more
prepared I can be.

<snip>
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Chagoi]

John Hines wrote:

> Mike Patterson > wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mike Patterson > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for
>>>>-cool- not -cute-. :-)
>>>
>>>Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam
>>>collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5)
>>>
>>
>>That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to
>>get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look.
>
>
> Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it
> holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and
> it will disappear from sight.

That is basically the design of the FEFD I spoke of earlier.

>>Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely
>>would it burn off the surface of the water?

No matter what you use, it is still going to be petroleum based
and you know what happens to wild life when water and oil try to mix.

>
> Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The
> fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out.

even Coleman fuel will have harmful after effects.

> You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates
> acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners
> hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one
> wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a
> historical source of portable flammable gas.
>
those miner lamps usually held about 2 oz. of carbide rock and 3-4 oz of
water
and lasted several hours. And they only produced a small brilliant
white flame.
It would probably take you about 100 lbs and 20 gals of water to generate
enough acetylene to burn about an hour.

Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[Mike Patterson]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0500, Mike Patterson
> wrote:

>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>so now I'm thinking...
>
>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>


Replying to my own post here as an FYI for those interested.
The following excerpt is from the Material Safety Data Sheet on
propane. http://www.vmpropane.com/pdf/safetydata.pdf

QUOTE:
Section X TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION

OSHA Carcinogen Classification (29 CFR 1910) Not
listed/applicable___X___

U.S. Department of Health (21 CFR 184.1655): Generally recognized as
safe (GRAS) as a direct human food ingredient when used as a
propellant, aerating agent and gas as defined in Section 170.3
(o)(25).
END QUOTE

Note especially the term "aerating agent" in regards to using propane
on human food.

I am inclined to conclude from this that propane would not harm de
little fishies in term of toxicity.

As for it being absorbed into the water and "suffocating" the little
water-breathers, everything I've found so far indicates that propane
will not absorb or mix with water. I guess the molecules are just too
light, they go to the surface and fling themselves skyward.


Now as for mercaptan, the stuff they add to make the gas smell bad:
http://www.matheson-trigas.com/msds/MAT14620.pdf

The "water solubility rate" is 2.4%. I wish I knew what that actually
meant... haven't found a definition yet.

This part is interesting:

QUOTE:
SECTION 12 ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
ECOTOXICITY DATA:
FISH TOXICITY: 500 ug/L 5 hour(s) (Mortality) Spotfin shiner (Notropis
spilopterus)
INVERTEBRATE TOXICITY: 50000 ug/L 48 hour(s) (Mortality) Midge
(Chironomus sp)
END QUOTE

This page lists common composition of residential-quality gas:

http://www.test-lab.com/gasone.htm

Quote:

Propane-Propylene grades: Commercial (i.e. residential fuel) grade
liquid propane (LP) is predominantly propane &/or propylene. HD-5
Grade (special duty engine fuel) has a more tightly defined
composition that is 90+% propane, 2 - 5% propylene & lower amounts of
other C2-C5 alkane/alkene hydrocarbons. Ethyl Mercaptan or thiophane
(tetrahydrothiophene) are typical LP odorant additives.

The only reference I've found that comes close to specifying the
amount of mercaptan used is this:
http://www.gasco.net/Files/faq.html

QUOTE
Propane's distinctive odor comes from the injection of no less than
1.5 pounds of ethyl-mercaptan per 10,000 gallons of liquid propane.
END QUOTE

Numerous other sources say it is added at rates from 0-50 ppm.


I have to leave for a busines trip tomorrow, so can't spend any more
time on this for a few days, but if anyone wants to play with the
numbers, there you go.

I'm guessing I could get a ball park idea of toxicity by figuring how
much mercaptan is in gas, factored with the absorption rate, volume of
the gas flow, volume of water exposed, and the stated toxicity levels
for fish. Oi, I hate math. I'll do it, but I'll not like it. :-)

Mike


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Offbreed]

Mike Patterson wrote:

> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> so now I'm thinking...
>
> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.

[Mike Patterson]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
> wrote:

>Mike Patterson wrote:
>
>> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>> so now I'm thinking...
>>
>> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
>How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
>surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.

Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.

Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[PlainBill]

I'm thinking about the gas log I installed in the fireplace. This has
a shut off valve, some kind of a small orifice (I never checked the
diameter), and the gas is fed to about 2 feet of perforated tube
arranged in an S curve. The gas mixes with the air AFTER the gas
leaves the perforated tube. This results in a dirtier, but more
visible flame. (Just the oposite of a Bunsen burner).

In your evaluation, try using regular gas pipe coming up to just
above the surface of the water in your test tank. You WILL want to
have some sort of an orifice restricting the flow just after the shut
off valve, and some sort of a diffuser just above the surface of the
water. I'm not at all enthusiastic about having the gas bubble up
throught the water. You won't get a smooth flow, and the water will
get saturated with natural gas. Once you get the mechanics worked
out, you can explore replacing any metal parts above the water with
glass. Heavy wall glass tubing in a wide range of diameters is a
stock item at any laboratory supply house.

I visualise two possible designs. The first is a simple glass tube
1/2 - 1" in diameter coming up to just above the surface of the water.
You would remove any water from the tube, turn on the gas, and light
it. At night, from a distance of more than a couple of feet, the
glass tube would be hard to see.

A more complex design would require a 4" diameter glass or plastic
tube ending right at the surface of the water, and an inside that a
much smaller tube 2" below that providing the gas. A small pump would
be constantly emptying any water which flowed into the larger tube.
The effect would be that of a 4" hole in the water with the flame
coming out of it.

PlainBill

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:00:54 -0500, Mike Patterson
> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
> wrote:
>
>>Mike Patterson wrote:
>>
>>> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>>> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>>> so now I'm thinking...
>>>
>>> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>
>>How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
>>surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.
>
>Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
>still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
>instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.
>
>Mike
>
>Mike Patterson
>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Ka30P]

You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Janet]

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
Janet


> You people are all nuts ;-)
>
> And I nominate you all for that TV
> program MONSTER HOUSE.
> But I think we should rename
> it MONSTER POND.
>
> This project demands a web page
> when it is done...
>
>
>
>
> ka30p
> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan

>LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
> Janet
>
>
>> You people are all nuts ;-)
>>
>> And I nominate you all for that TV
>> program MONSTER HOUSE.
>> But I think we should rename
>> it MONSTER POND.
>>
>> This project demands a web page
>> when it is done...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ka30p
>> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html
>

~ jan

[Janet]

Oh no Jan... HGTV does not know how to do ponds well or properly! On Weekend
Warrior last night they built a so-called koi pond. Hubby and I sat and
laughed at all the bad ponding advice. Tiny pond, no real filtering,
overstocked... you name it they did it! :oO

Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
fish are ok under the solid ice.:o( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
thawed in the ice to check.


> I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan
>
> >LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
> > Janet
> >
> >
> >> You people are all nuts ;-)
> >>
> >> And I nominate you all for that TV
> >> program MONSTER HOUSE.
> >> But I think we should rename
> >> it MONSTER POND.
> >>
> >> This project demands a web page
> >> when it is done...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ka30p
> >> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html
> >
>
> ~ jan

[Mike Patterson]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:43:03 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan
>
>>LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
>> Janet
>>
>>
>>> You people are all nuts ;-)
>>>
>>> And I nominate you all for that TV
>>> program MONSTER HOUSE.
>>> But I think we should rename
>>> it MONSTER POND.
>>>
>>> This project demands a web page
>>> when it is done...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ka30p
>>> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html
>>
>
>~ jan


So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of
anything like this?

I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so
obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of
creative thinkers.

I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success
or failure, I'll put it on my web server.

I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish"
mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond.

Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to
relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!"

It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want
it, but I'm well on the way.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Chagoi]

Mike Patterson wrote:
>
> My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
> "Continuous flow" at the surface to sustain the flame.

Again you could not afford the amount of gas required to come close to what
could be considered any thing close to a "continuous flow".

Natural gas is normally supplied to a residential customer at 4 PSI.
About the pressure you exert when you blow up a balloon
while LPG is regulated to 14 Inches of water column max.
which is about the pressure you exert when you exhale while breathing
normally.

any pressure ABOVE these and the gas WILL NOT light reliably.

And PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE Mike do not even attempt to run a direct line
from the tank,
That is About 110 #'s of pressure ""EXXXTREMELY DANGEROUS""
> Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
> <snip>

>>
>>Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
>>would be astronomical.
>>I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
>>Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residential rate.
>>For LPG here in eastern Pa.
>
>
> good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
> else the testing should be entertaining.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg
>>http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg

>>
>>
>
> That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
> input!"

Thanks for " NO Disassemble Johnny 5"

> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Chagoi]

Anne Lurie wrote:
> What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
> *water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?
>
> Anne Lurie
> Raleigh, NC
>

That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply
stick a pipe or tube in the pond,
connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices,
burners, valves, and SAFEty devices.

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com


> "Mike Patterson" > wrote in
> message ...
>
>>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>>so now I'm thinking...
>>
>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>
>>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>>
>>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>>
>>Mike
>>Mike Patterson
>>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>
>
>

[Chagoi]

Mike Patterson wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Patterson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>>>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>>>so now I'm thinking...
>>>
>>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>
>>How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
>>surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.
>
>
> Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
> still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
> instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.

Mike P.
Forget the "exposure time" that will not even come into play as the
bubble method will not work reliably.
No matter how close to the surface you start the bubbles.

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com
> Mike
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Chagoi]

Ka30P wrote:

> You people are all nuts ;-)
>
> And I nominate you all for that TV
> program MONSTER HOUSE.
> But I think we should rename
> it MONSTER POND.
>
> This project demands a web page
> when it is done...
>


Ka30P & Janet

I guess I am just going to have to come out and tell MiKe P. that he is
literally]
PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED. "NO PUN INTENDED"
There are too, too, many things that can go wrong with what he is
attempting to do
and the way he wants to go about it.

I work with propane, gas fireplaces and the like. I have trained with
GAS both as a fireman
and as a repairman/installer. I have also experimented with it and my
gas campfire is a hybrid
of regular manufacturers design and some of my own.

The Flame thingy or the FEFD (Floating Eternal Flame Device) as it will
be called if it works.
Has all the safety controls, valves, pilot light, and burners that your
home gas furnace has only
on a smaller, simpler scale.

You can't just run a gas line and light the gas and expect it to stay
lit. Especially in a pond with waves
or even ripples from curious fish swimming by near the surface.

Again I repeat:
The only way the bubble method might work is if you have a standing
pilot. To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. Fireball... steady pilot flame... Fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...Fireball... Fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...

If it wasn't so cold (-4 F last night, only 11 F today and maybe 20 F
tomorrow) and everything frozen I could go outside
and do some video of what he wants to do and show him just what CAN and
WILL happen if he goes
about the testing he wants to do. But, Ice doesn’t bubble too well.

Even with my training and respect of gas, I get SCARED at times when
experimenting. And I am not ashamed to admit it.
I have lost my share of eyebrows, moustache, and beard to
experimentation. No serious burns, other than forgetting
that a part was hot.

Again Mike P;
"YOUR PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED". "NO PUN INTENDED"
I don't want to have to tell you later: I TOLD YOU SO!

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

> Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
>fish are ok under the solid ice.:o( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
>thawed in the ice to check.

There's a lot to be said for my leaf screens that I leave on till spring.
When the snow comes it makes an igloo and the ponds are completely ice free
underneath. This came in very handy when the temps dropped to below 0*F and
we lost power for 6 hours. When the power came on I could hear liquid water
running from filter (hose self drains) to pond.

Regarding the fish though, I need an underwater cam w/light. ~ jan
~ jan

[Just Me \Koi\]

And we are solidly BEHIND you! Way behind you of course in case it BLOWS up
in your face? Sorry Dude, can't help myself!

Really though, I think your idea is great and we do look forward to the
outcome, just be careful not to hurt yourself while perfecting the idea!

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:43:03 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> > wrote:
>
> >I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan
> >
> >>LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
> >> Janet
> >>
> >>
> >>> You people are all nuts ;-)
> >>>
> >>> And I nominate you all for that TV
> >>> program MONSTER HOUSE.
> >>> But I think we should rename
> >>> it MONSTER POND.
> >>>
> >>> This project demands a web page
> >>> when it is done...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ka30p
> >>> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html
> >>
> >
> >~ jan
>
>
> So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of
> anything like this?
>
> I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so
> obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of
> creative thinkers.
>
> I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success
> or failure, I'll put it on my web server.
>
> I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish"
> mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond.
>
> Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to
> relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!"
>
> It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want
> it, but I'm well on the way.
>
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Janet]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> > Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
> >fish are ok under the solid ice.:o( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
> >thawed in the ice to check.
>
> There's a lot to be said for my leaf screens that I leave on till spring.
> When the snow comes it makes an igloo and the ponds are completely ice
free
> underneath. This came in very handy when the temps dropped to below 0*F
and
> we lost power for 6 hours. When the power came on I could hear liquid
water
> running from filter (hose self drains) to pond.
>
> Regarding the fish though, I need an underwater cam w/light. ~ jan
> ~ jan

Your temps dropped below 0*F Jan... We have been living through an arctic
air mass with temps of -18*F to -20*F with winchills in the -30* to -40*
mark. Even with my pump going full tilt my stream froze solid. :o( I also
had a bell fountain going and it froze solid and cracked with the pump
going... Temps are supposed to rise for the next few days to <gasp> 32-34*F
so I'm hoping to get some stuff thawed and checked and hopefully back up and
running.
Janet who'll have to remember the leaf screen next fall! ;o)

[Chagoi]

Mike Patterson wrote:

> My plan was to have the gas flow fast enough so that there is a net
> "Continuous flow" at the surface to sustain the flame.

Natural gas is normally supplied to a residential customer at 4 PSI.
About the pressure you exert when you blow up a balloon
while LPG is regulated to 14 Inches of water column max.
which is about the pressure you exert when you exhale while breathing
normally.

any pressure ABOVE these and the gas WILL NOT light reliably.

What ever you do Mike, Please, Please, Please, DO NOT try to get more
gas flow
by connecting directly to the tank. The pressure in the tank is about
110#’s. It is
EXXXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and at that pressure it will not ignite at first,
but when the mixture 10 to 20 feet away gets to the proper proportions,
and you attempt to light it. It will ignite. But the results will be a
fireball of disastrous proportions. It will blow like a quart of
gasoline that was tossed on the ground and lit 30 seconds later. A big
WOOSH, FIREBALL,
and a FLASHOVER across a very large area.


> Ideally, nothing protrudes above water level, so no pilot.
> <snip>

>>
>>Also the volume of gas you would require, IF it were possible to do it
>>would be astronomical.
>>I am paying $1.90-$2.20 / gal. Commercial rate.
>>Compared to $2.75 -$3.50/ gal. Residential rate.
>>For LPG here in eastern Pa.
>
>
> good points,, but I think I'll do some empirical testing. If nothing
> else the testing should be entertaining.

I don’t consider Fireballs of this proportion ENTERTAINING!!!

> That's OK, keep rambling. In the immortal words of Number 5, "more
> input!"
>


“NO Disassemble Johnny 5”

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[THE Old Man]

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 GMT, "Cybe R. Wizard"
<Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
>"Just Me \"Koi\"" > wrote:
>
>> If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!
>
>DANG, I must be getting old.
>I read that as, "...immolate you."
>
>Cybe R. Wizard

I was thinking the same thing. Keep your finger on the 911 key.

[THE Old Man]

I just have "this feeling" that we're gonna read about or see on TV a
story about Mike. I hope it has a happy ending.

dd

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:30:44 -0500, Chagoi
> wrote:

>Anne Lurie wrote:
>> What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
>> *water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?
>>
>> Anne Lurie
>> Raleigh, NC
>>
>
>That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply
>stick a pipe or tube in the pond,
>connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices,
>burners, valves, and SAFEty devices.
>
>Mike S.
>Chagoi
>http://ourkoipond.com
>
>
>> "Mike Patterson" > wrote in
>> message ...
>>
>>>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
>>>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
>>>so now I'm thinking...
>>>
>>>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
>>>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
>>>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>>>
>>>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>>>
>>>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>Mike Patterson
>>>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>>
>>
>>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Sounds like you got what we had. Somewhere near us it hit -19*F as the all
time low for our area. We had -5.5*F on our memory thermometer as the
lowest. The snow on the ground during this time has saved a lot of plants,
not to mention my ponds.

We're now up to 34*F today. ~ jan

>On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:56:50 -0500, "Janet" > wrote:

> Your temps dropped below 0*F Jan... We have been living through an arctic
>air mass with temps of -18*F to -20*F with winchills in the -30* to -40*
>mark. Even with my pump going full tilt my stream froze solid. :o( I also
>had a bell fountain going and it froze solid and cracked with the pump
>going... Temps are supposed to rise for the next few days to <gasp> 32-34*F
>so I'm hoping to get some stuff thawed and checked and hopefully back up and
>running.
> Janet who'll have to remember the leaf screen next fall! ;o)
>

[Just Me \Koi\]

I feel guilty to do this to you, but I have no choice! Allow me this one
given the fire and winds, and other bad stuff we have had to endure! So
here I go

over 80 degrees here yesterday in Rancho Cucamonga, with projections of some
90 degrees by next Thursday!
Now that said, I am sure we are in store for some earthquake or....?

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds like you got what we had. Somewhere near us it hit -19*F as the all
> time low for our area. We had -5.5*F on our memory thermometer as the
> lowest. The snow on the ground during this time has saved a lot of plants,
> not to mention my ponds.
>
> We're now up to 34*F today. ~ jan
>
> >On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:56:50 -0500, "Janet" >
wrote:
>
> > Your temps dropped below 0*F Jan... We have been living through an
arctic
> >air mass with temps of -18*F to -20*F with winchills in the -30* to -40*
> >mark. Even with my pump going full tilt my stream froze solid. :o( I
also
> >had a bell fountain going and it froze solid and cracked with the pump
> >going... Temps are supposed to rise for the next few days to <gasp>
32-34*F
> >so I'm hoping to get some stuff thawed and checked and hopefully back up
and
> >running.
> > Janet who'll have to remember the leaf screen next fall! ;o)
> >
>

[Anne Lurie]

Has it occurred to anyone else here that this thread could converge on the
recurring "Pond Heater" threads???

Just *think* of the possibilities!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Mike Patterson" > wrote >>

> So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of
> anything like this?
>
> I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so
> obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of
> creative thinkers.
>
> I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success
> or failure, I'll put it on my web server.
>
> I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish"
> mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond.
>
> Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to
> relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!"
>
> It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want
> it, but I'm well on the way.
>
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Anne Lurie]

Mike S., you may be the guy to back this up -- as I recall, propane gas is
*heavier* than air, so any leakage would not disperse into the air, but
would instead hang at ground level waiting for the next ignition source?

I thought I read about a worst-case scenario of propane gas back in the mid
80's when I lived in New Jersey. It was apparently illegal for movers to
transport filled propane [BBQ] tanks, so soime idiot simply opened up the
valve to let the propane out. The gas, being heavy, simply flowed along the
ground until a neighbor unknowingly ignited his own BBQ -- and, foom! At
least one child was seriously burned (to the best of my recollection --
but I'd be unwilling to put this theory to the test).

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"Chagoi" > wrote in message
...
> Anne Lurie wrote:
> > What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
> > *water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?
> >
> > Anne Lurie
> > Raleigh, NC
> >
>
> That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply
> stick a pipe or tube in the pond,
> connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices,
> burners, valves, and SAFEty devices.
>
> Mike S.
> Chagoi
> http://ourkoipond.com
>
>
> > "Mike Patterson" > wrote in
> > message ...
> >
> >>Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> >>problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> >>so now I'm thinking...
> >>
> >>How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> >>put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> >>pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
> >>
> >>I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
> >>
> >>Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>Mike Patterson
> >>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
> >
> >
> >
>

[Chagoi]

Anne Lurie wrote:
> Mike S., you may be the guy to back this up -- as I recall, propane gas is
> *heavier* than air, so any leakage would not disperse into the air, but
> would instead hang at ground level waiting for the next ignition source?

Yes! exactly. Anne Lurie

That is what is explained in my last post. Reposted below. It will act
just like the gasoline.
I said this will take place using the gas at 110#'s but, it can happen
at any pressure.
It stands to reason that the more gas, the bigger the
KAAABOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Repost:

It is EXXXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and at that pressure it will not ignite at
first, but when the mixture 10 to 20 feet away gets to the proper
proportions, and you attempt to light it. It will ignite.

But the results will be a fireball of disastrous proportions. It will
blow like a quart of gasoline that was tossed on the ground and lit 30
seconds later. A big WOOSH, FIREBALL, and a FLASHOVER across a very
large area.


> I thought I read about a worst-case scenario of propane gas back in the mid
> 80's when I lived in New Jersey. It was apparently illegal for movers to
> transport filled propane [BBQ] tanks, so soime idiot simply opened up the
> valve to let the propane out. The gas, being heavy, simply flowed along the
> ground until a neighbor unknowingly ignited his own BBQ -- and, foom! At
> least one child was seriously burned (to the best of my recollection --
> but I'd be unwilling to put this theory to the test).

Like I said before If it wasn't so cold and everything was frozen I
could show some controlled examples.

************************************************** ************************************************** *******************************************
Propane gas can be used to power products such as:

* Barbeques
* Emergency generators
* Pool heaters
* Clothes dryers

Natural gas is the most common type of gas used in households. It is
used to power household appliances such as:

* Stoves
* Heaters
* Fireplaces
* Clothes dryers

Propane gas, and natural gas are relatively safe if handled in the
appropriate manner. However, if handled improperly, gas can be deadly.

Causes of Gas Fires & Explosions

Some of the more common root causes of gas fires and explosions include:

* Improper handling - people who are not careful when handling
gases are often to blame for gas fires and explosions.

* Failure to follow safety codes - guidelines for the safe use of
gases are issued by the manufacturers of products and by U.S. government
agencies. If these guidelines are not followed there is an increased
risk of gas fire or explosion.

* Defective products - although manufacturers test their products
for safety defects before they are offered to the public, some products
may contain a defect that can lead to a gas fire or explosion. Among
products that can lead to gas fires, propane barbeques are the most
commonly recalled.

* Improper application - people try to create dazzling effects in
their PONDS, without following logical guidelines and advice necessary
to ensure proper operation. If these guidelines are not followed there
is an increased risk of gas fire or explosion. 8~)

8~) ( SORRY, I couldn't resist the last spoof on root causes)


Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

> Anne Lurie
> Raleigh, NC
>

[Chagoi]

Anne Lurie wrote:

> Mike S., you may be the guy to back this up -- as I recall, propane gas is
> *heavier* than air, so any leakage would not disperse into the air, but
> would instead hang at ground level waiting for the next ignition source?
>

A repost from friday also explains this effect also.

Having the gas bubble up from under the water will not work. You must
maintain a constant stream of gas.
The volume of gas can vary, but the supply cannot be broken.

Repost:
The only way the bubble method MAY work is if you have a standing pilot.
To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. fireball... steady pilot flame... fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...fireball... fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...
You get the picture...


Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

[Brian Belliveau]

You are authorized to take a research expedition to Orlando ... look for
Fantasmic! at Disney MGM

Parts of the show include a flames on water effect ... natural gas or
propane I suspect. Very cool, in a
warm-you-up-in-January-with-radiant-heat way.


Link here...
http://www.wdisneyw.co.uk/mgmfant.html

By the way, your just going to get the technical aspect ... stay off the
rides!


"Mike Patterson" > wrote in
message ...
> Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
> problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
> so now I'm thinking...
>
> How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
> put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
> pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.
>
> I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.
>
> Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?
>
> Mike
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[john rutz]

..
>
> As for it being absorbed into the water and "suffocating" the little
> water-breathers, everything I've found so far indicates that propane
> will not absorb or mix with water. I guess the molecules are just too
> light, they go to the surface and fling themselves skyward.
>
>.
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Patterson
> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.


Mike
one thing to keep in mind propane/butane is heavyer than air so will
accumulate in low places ( ie your pond) so if you build this thing
make sure the starter and the gas flow work together or you could get a
heck of a flash fire when it ignites

Natural gas is lighter than air and will go straight up from the orfice
if there is no wind

John Rutz

[Mike Patterson]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:02:25 -0700, john rutz >
wrote:

>.
>>
>> As for it being absorbed into the water and "suffocating" the little
>> water-breathers, everything I've found so far indicates that propane
>> will not absorb or mix with water. I guess the molecules are just too
>> light, they go to the surface and fling themselves skyward.
>>
>>.
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Mike Patterson
>> Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>
>
>Mike
>one thing to keep in mind propane/butane is heavyer than air so will
>accumulate in low places ( ie your pond) so if you build this thing
>make sure the starter and the gas flow work together or you could get a
>heck of a flash fire when it ignites
>
>Natural gas is lighter than air and will go straight up from the orfice
>if there is no wind
>
>John Rutz
>

Thanks for the input.
My pond is surrounded by rock to a height of about 4 inches, so a
flashover could be interesting...

I plan to have a remoted peizo igniter.

Been out of town working, just returned, so plan to experiment later
this week using a washtub outside.

For you other folks, please believe me, I will be careful and take
precautions. I am a fairly knowedgeable 42 year old adult, and I take
responsibility for my own actions.

Thanks
Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.