Fish freezing solid in shallows

[Robyn Rhudy]

For the second time this winter, I found a frozen goldfish. I never had
this before in 6 years so I can't figure out why the goldfish are all
going up into the shallows and then freezing in solid. My pond has about
a foot of water in the most shallow area and it's frozen to the bottom
there with at least one goldfish frozen in time with his mouth open and
pectoral fin paddling to the side. The deep end has openings in it but
the fish hang out in the shallows presumably to remain more hidden under
the more opaque ice. I thought one of my 1.5 ft orfe was dead too
but when I looked later, he had moved. I wish I could talk to the fish
and get them to stay in the deep end (26")! I sledged some ice off part
of the falls today since it went above freezing (the shocks should not
have reached the fish as it's not on the pond itself and I'm a feable
hammerer plus they seemed ok) and threw it across the pond's ice cover. I
also walked on the shallow ice (strange feeling to walk on your pond!). I
ran some water into the pond to raise the level a little as it goes down
from evaporation and drinking animals. I only let it go a little over the
ice cover though as I'm always afraid some fish will go swimming on top
and freeze. But, since they're too busy under the ice in the shallow area
dying, they won't do that! It was 5-10 degrees F a few mornings in the
last few weeks here in Zone 6/7, and the pond was almost frozen except for
the falls (with the de-icer at the head of it). I bailed quite a few
buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
gloves). I'm tired of it!


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[GrannyGrump]

>buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
>gloves). I'm tired of it!

Get a stock tank heater and use it.

Tractor Supply has floating heaters.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Robyn Rhudy" > wrote in message
.umbc.edu...
>
> For the second time this winter, I found a frozen goldfish. I never had
> this before in 6 years so I can't figure out why the goldfish are all
> going up into the shallows and then freezing in solid.
===============================
The water may be getting low in oxygen forcing the fish toward the
surface. Try using an aerator with a large airstone at one end of the
pond. Don't let the top freeze solid. I hope this helps....
--
Carol...
My webpages:
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/indexpage.html
"Go for younger men. You might as well, they never mature anyway."
~~~~<~~~~<~~~{@ ~~~~<~~~~<~~~{@ ~~~~<~~~{@ ~~~<~~{@

[Rich]

Yes my pond is all ice except one spot, where I run a 500 GPH pump to a
garden hose. The hose is out of the water a foot and splashes in the water
giving oxygen and keeping a hole open.


"GrannyGrump" > wrote in message
...
>
> >buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
> >gloves). I'm tired of it!
>
> Get a stock tank heater and use it.
>
> Tractor Supply has floating heaters.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>>Robin R wrote:
>> >buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
>> >gloves). I'm tired of it!

I agree a stock tank heater can really help, especially with goldfish, they
will park themselves around it like orange submarines at a docking station.

My screens managed to hold up with 14" of snow and then rain on top to make
it good and heavy, in one place I can see the screen hitting the water, as
water level is quite high. Otherwise, all was looking good as far as ice
free. Water temp is up to 37F today, as we go thru a thaw, but we've yet to
get hit 40F since the big freeze, so I was surprised at the temp.

Unfortunately, one of my weaker fish, who I was treating for fin rot prior
to the down turn in temps this fall, succumbed and I found floating this
morning. I had to move snow back to lift the screen, but at least she
wasn't stuck in ice where I would have had to wait or risk disturbing the
other fish to get her out. I hope she is my only causality, but we still
have a lot of winter to go and critical spring to go through. I can only
hope the snow we have will melt off and I can pull the screens tight and
reset before another snowy system, if we get one, comes in.

Sorry about your woes Robin, is work at least going better? ~ jan

[Just Me \Koi\]

Jan, I read the way you replied to Robin, and the way you closed your
response and I am moved to tell you that you just thought me something
invaluable, about human compassion.
I am not Robin, but yet I feel so encouraged so....?

--
_______________________________________
"The seed of my blessings are planted in the soil of my testings"
Church Sermons

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino


"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >>Robin R wrote:
> >> >buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
> >> >gloves). I'm tired of it!
>
> I agree a stock tank heater can really help, <snip>
You openend with an unsderstanding of the situation and show respect for the
other person's point of view!

<snip>

> Sorry about your woes Robin, is work at least going better? ~ jan
And then you masterfully closed by re-affirming your sympathy and offering
alternate issues that may bring encouragement.


Thank you Jan for letting me learn from you not only about ponds, but also
about being a human being!

[Zookeeper]

Robyn, would be better to leave the water level lower, so there is air
between ice and the top of the water? Then even if the fish hang out at
the end, they can't freeze into the ice because they can't reach it.
Several posts last winter seemed to suggest that leaving that air space
also helps insulate the water so it doesn't get as cold.

So sorry you've lost two of your goldfish. We were lucky when it froze
and snowed here -- the pond only had a thin layer of ice and snow that
covered about two-thirds, but since we've left the pump running, the
deep end where the water returns remained open. Hope your weather gets
warmer soon.
--
Kathy aka Zk
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies
Oregon, USDA Zone 7

Robyn Rhudy wrote:
> For the second time this winter, I found a frozen goldfish. I never had
> this before in 6 years so I can't figure out why the goldfish are all
> going up into the shallows and then freezing in solid. My pond has about
> a foot of water in the most shallow area and it's frozen to the bottom
> there with at least one goldfish frozen in time with his mouth open and
> pectoral fin paddling to the side. The deep end has openings in it but
> the fish hang out in the shallows presumably to remain more hidden under
> the more opaque ice ... I
> ran some water into the pond to raise the level a little as it goes down
> from evaporation and drinking animals.

[THE Old Man]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:49:21 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>Unfortunately, one of my weaker fish, who I was treating for fin rot prior
>to the down turn in temps this fall, succumbed and I found floating this
>morning.

This is a wee bit off topic but your statement there made a memory of
1970 Winter spring up. I had several aquariums in our home and had
caught some local perch and put into a child's swimming pool on a
screened porch with water lillies. They didn't seem to be doing too
well so I carried them back to the lake where I had netted them but
left the pool on the porch with the plants in it. They did so well.
Time marches on ... we had some very large opaline gouramis that came
down with ich. I was going to take that tank down and sterilize it
and put the gouramis in the pool on the porch and treated the water
with salt. The ich was doing well ... growing by leaps and bounds and
the specks were getting larger by the day. We had a family crisis
come up and the fish on the porch were forgotten. It seemed like over
night the cold of winter came about. I really didn't know what to do
about the gouramis as I didn't have a place for them in the house.
And they had looked so bad I just left them. [PLEASE... NO SCREAMING
YET ... the story's not over! :) ] I would peek at them from time to
time and could see them not floating belly up but not moving very
much. That spring I said I was going to net them, put them in a large
plastic bag and bring them inside where I now had a spare tank. When
I floated them there were no ich spots but they had what appeared to
be cataracts! I let them float in the bag for a very long time until
the water temp was equal to the water in the tank. They looked just
fine except for the eyes and in no time were eating like normal fish.
One morning my 5 year old daughter came running into our bed room
screaming for us to get out of bed and come look. Staggering into the
den we found the fish had no cataracts, no ich and their color was
much better than other gouramis that had stayed in the house all
winter.

Thought you would [Y A W N ! ] enjoy that little tale.

[Hank]

The deep end has openings in it but
> the fish hang out in the shallows presumably to remain more hidden
under
> the more opaque ice

Robyn, I float a large piece of Styrofoam on the deep area of my pond
to support the netting. The fish seem to hang out under it. Maybe if
you get a thaw you can try a piece. (I used the packaging from a TV) I
also use an air stone about 4" deep to oxygenate and keep a hole open.
It has worked well for several years even with this weeks single digit
temps.
I hope this helps ..... good
luck, Hank

http://community.webshots.com/user/hankpage1

"Robyn Rhudy" > wrote in message
.umbc.edu...
>
> For the second time this winter, I found a frozen goldfish. I never
had
> this before in 6 years so I can't figure out why the goldfish are
all
> going up into the shallows and then freezing in solid. My pond has
about
> a foot of water in the most shallow area and it's frozen to the
bottom
> there with at least one goldfish frozen in time with his mouth open
and
> pectoral fin paddling to the side. The deep end has openings in it
but
> the fish hang out in the shallows presumably to remain more hidden
under
> the more opaque ice. I thought one of my 1.5 ft orfe was dead too
> but when I looked later, he had moved. I wish I could talk to the
fish
> and get them to stay in the deep end (26")! I sledged some ice off
part
> of the falls today since it went above freezing (the shocks should
not
> have reached the fish as it's not on the pond itself and I'm a
feable
> hammerer plus they seemed ok) and threw it across the pond's ice
cover. I
> also walked on the shallow ice (strange feeling to walk on your
pond!). I
> ran some water into the pond to raise the level a little as it goes
down
> from evaporation and drinking animals. I only let it go a little
over the
> ice cover though as I'm always afraid some fish will go swimming on
top
> and freeze. But, since they're too busy under the ice in the
shallow area
> dying, they won't do that! It was 5-10 degrees F a few mornings in
the
> last few weeks here in Zone 6/7, and the pond was almost frozen
except for
> the falls (with the de-icer at the head of it). I bailed quite a
few
> buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
> gloves). I'm tired of it!
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Important Notice! Robyn's web site has moved from
> http://userpages.umbc.edu/~rrhudy1/ to http://www.fishpondinfo.com.
This
> e-mail as well as the old site (which refers to the new site) will
be
> deleted on 9/24/04 by UMBC (I have no say in it). After that date,
> please use the e-mail of instead of this
e-mail.
> Please spread the word that my site has moved. Thanks.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Chemist, preservationist, animal lover, aquarist, and ponder. -
> Extensive web pages on animals, fish, and ponds. -
> http://www.fishpondinfo.com
> Free pond newsletter - sign up at my web site -
> Finally! Buy Robyn's Pond Book at www.1stbooks.com -
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Oh gosh, shucks.... <in serious blush mode> Thanks. :o) ~ jan


>On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:31:53 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\"" > wrote:

>Jan, I read the way you replied to Robin, and the way you closed your
>response and I am moved to tell you that you just thought me something
>invaluable, about human compassion.
>I am not Robin, but yet I feel so encouraged so....?
>
>--
>_______________________________________
>"The seed of my blessings are planted in the soil of my testings"
>Church Sermons
>
> http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino
>
>
>"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>> >>Robin R wrote:
>> >> >buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
>> >> >gloves). I'm tired of it!
>>
>> I agree a stock tank heater can really help, <snip>
>You openend with an unsderstanding of the situation and show respect for the
>other person's point of view!
>
><snip>
>
>> Sorry about your woes Robin, is work at least going better? ~ jan
>And then you masterfully closed by re-affirming your sympathy and offering
>alternate issues that may bring encouragement.
>
>
>Thank you Jan for letting me learn from you not only about ponds, but also
>about being a human being!
>

~ jan

[Robyn Rhudy]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> >>Robin R wrote:
> >> >buckets of hot water recently and picked up a lot of ice (with water
> >> >gloves). I'm tired of it!
>
> I agree a stock tank heater can really help, especially with goldfish, they
> will park themselves around it like orange submarines at a docking station.

I have a de-icer at the top of the waterfall. In previous years, I put it
over the intake of my pump but then the waterfall would get too much ice
on it so it seems to work at the top of the falls. The falls splash under
the rocks quite a bit so I don't think they are lacking in oxygen.
Depending on how cold it is, some days there are large open areas near the
falls and sometimes just a small area but either way, the fish should not
feel a need to find oxygen in the shallows. I think they are trying to
hide (under the ice shelf) and also maybe on those really cold days, the
waterfall was supercooling the water a bit making it colder in the deep
end. The first fish that died a month ago though froze in the deep end.

>
> My screens managed to hold up with 14" of snow and then rain on top to make
> it good and heavy, in one place I can see the screen hitting the water, as
> water level is quite high. Otherwise, all was looking good as far as ice
> free. Water temp is up to 37F today, as we go thru a thaw, but we've yet to
> get hit 40F since the big freeze, so I was surprised at the temp.
>
> Unfortunately, one of my weaker fish, who I was treating for fin rot prior
> to the down turn in temps this fall, succumbed and I found floating this
> morning. I had to move snow back to lift the screen, but at least she
> wasn't stuck in ice where I would have had to wait or risk disturbing the
> other fish to get her out. I hope she is my only causality, but we still
> have a lot of winter to go and critical spring to go through. I can only
> hope the snow we have will melt off and I can pull the screens tight and
> reset before another snowy system, if we get one, comes in.
>

Sorry for your loss.

> Sorry about your woes Robin, is work at least going better? ~ jan
>

Nah, only gets worse. I know I shouldn't complain but today I'm in a lot
of pain and have a head cold and had to do extractions on my feet with
ethyl acetate which makes my head hurt. But, I snuck on the computer for
a minute now though! The biggest thing now I hate about work is a new
boss who curses and yells at work. It's one thing at home but it
shouldn't be allowed at work. Due to his "importance," he won't be fired.
Most days, I wish I would be. Then, maybe I could enjoy my animals for
two seconds (aside from cleaning up after them).


----------------------------------------------------------------
Important Notice! Robyn's web site has moved from
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~rrhudy1/ to http://www.fishpondinfo.com. This
e-mail as well as the old site (which refers to the new site) will be
deleted on 9/24/04 by UMBC (I have no say in it). After that date,
please use the e-mail of instead of this e-mail.
Please spread the word that my site has moved. Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chemist, preservationist, animal lover, aquarist, and ponder. -
Extensive web pages on animals, fish, and ponds. -
http://www.fishpondinfo.com
Free pond newsletter - sign up at my web site -
Finally! Buy Robyn's Pond Book at www.1stbooks.com -
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>waterfall was supercooling the water a bit making it colder in the deep
>end. The first fish that died a month ago though froze in the deep end.

Could be. Not sure of your fish load situation, but maybe turning the falls
off and putting the deicer in the pond would be worth a try?

>Sorry for your loss.

Yea, and it would be the one with one of the best patterns, but considering
how hard I worked to recover the 3 others last year, I'm almost
relieved.... but that's not to say I get to start out the spring clean,
does it? <s> I can only hope.

Sorry your work situation is so awful. That's a bummer. ~ jan

[Anne Lurie]

Robyn,

I wonder if your goldfish were hanging out in the shallow part of the pond
because of the ice itself. Is there any "structure" in the deeper part of
your pond for the fish to hang out near or under?

My goldfish hangs out between the two filters of my Little Giant pump since
there are no pond plants in the pond now. (I had a Parrotfeather in a pot
on the bottom of the pond earlier; the fish hung out underneath the leaves,
and the frogs sat on top of the floating leaves.)

You may not get a decent break in the weather to add any structure to your
pond this season, but you might keep it in mind for next year.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC