Digging a tiny pond to attract wildlife

[Dave]

I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
pond FAQ? Thanks.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On 20 Jan 2004 07:26:16 -0800
(Dave) wrote:

> I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
> from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
> frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
> The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
> whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
> depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
> wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
> pond FAQ? Thanks.

Hello, near neighbor! If your soil (!) is like ours a liner will be a
necessity.

Cybe R. Wizard -northern Jeff county, just south of 'The Louie'
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

[Dave]

"Cybe R. Wizard" <Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower> wrote in message news:<20040120151522.0d8f3665.Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower>...
> (Dave) wrote:
>
> > I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
> > from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
> > frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
> > The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
> > whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
> > depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
> > wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
> > pond FAQ? Thanks.
>
> Hello, near neighbor! If your soil (!) is like ours a liner will be a
> necessity.
>
> Cybe R. Wizard -northern Jeff county, just south of 'The Louie'

Hi neighbor, yeah a liner is probably a good idea. We have some sticky
clay here that would probably hold water but not as well as plastic
and I don't want to have to haul more water just for the fun of it.
Not sure what contour I should try for or what I should plant around
it.

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On 21 Jan 2004 06:38:16 -0800
(Dave) wrote:

<snip>
>
> Hi neighbor, yeah a liner is probably a good idea. We have some sticky
> clay here that would probably hold water but not as well as plastic
> and I don't want to have to haul more water just for the fun of it.
> Not sure what contour I should try for or what I should plant around
> it.

In your position I think I'd get an experimental piece of heavy tarp or
a discarded pool liner to use. Dig, pile, shape, trim pre-liner as you
like it. After it's just like you want, tear it all back out (leave the
hole). You now have a template to use on your 'real' liner and have
done all the nasty work without having to risk harm to the 'real' thing.
It will also help to gauge the amount of runoff you actually get. I've
been/very/ surprised at how much water runs down my little valley.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P.
Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P.
"Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y.
Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L

[Dave]

"Cybe R. Wizard" <Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower> wrote in message news:<20040121084925.79fad3b5.Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower>...
> [...]
> In your position I think I'd get an experimental piece of heavy tarp or
> a discarded pool liner to use. Dig, pile, shape, trim pre-liner as you
> like it. After it's just like you want, tear it all back out (leave the
> hole). You now have a template to use on your 'real' liner and have
> done all the nasty work without having to risk harm to the 'real' thing.
> It will also help to gauge the amount of runoff you actually get. I've
> been/very/ surprised at how much water runs down my little valley.
>
> Cybe R. Wizard

The trick might be getting it dug properly and getting a liner in it
before it fills. I almost hope it does leak so that I will have more
time.

[Anne Lurie]

Here's the FAQ site for rec.ponds:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Dave" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
> from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
> frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
> The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
> whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
> depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
> wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
> pond FAQ? Thanks.

[Dave]

"Anne Lurie" > wrote in message >...
>
> Here's the FAQ site for rec.ponds:
> http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
>
> Anne Lurie
>

Thanks. I wish it included info on how and where frogs hibernate. This
is critical to deciding how I will construct my pond.

[Ka30P]

Dave wrote>> Thanks. I wish it included info on how and where frogs hibernate.
This
is critical to deciding how I will construct my pond.<<

Depends on the frog.
Some frogs, such as bullfrogs and leopard frogs, spend the winter at the bottom
of the pond.
Other frogs, such as the tree and chorus frogs, spend their winters in leaf
litter and under logs.

Frogs that winter under water like a bit of mud, some leaf litter or a tub of
nice mud to hang out in.
Most importantly they need a hole kept open in the ice. This allows built up
gasses from decomposing pond matter to leave the pond. Since our garden ponds
are usually over stocked and over planted this is important. Mother Nature
usually doesn't have this to worry about.


ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Dave]

(Ka30P) wrote in message >...
> > Dave wrote:
> > Thanks. I wish it included info on how and where frogs hibernate.
> > This is critical to deciding how I will construct my pond.
> >
>
> Depends on the frog.
> Some frogs, such as bullfrogs and leopard frogs, spend the winter at
> the bottom of the pond. Other frogs, such as the tree and chorus frogs,
> spend their winters in leaf litter and under logs.
>
> Frogs that winter under water like a bit of mud, some leaf litter or
> a tub of nice mud to hang out in. Most importantly they need a hole
> kept open in the ice. This allows built up gasses from decomposing
> pond matter to leave the pond. Since our garden ponds are usually
> over stocked and over planted this is important. Mother Nature
> usually doesn't have this to worry about.
>

That is what I was afraid of. So how much water depth and bottom mud
depth does that imply? I guess I need a deep center area where the
liner can be backfilled with mud. Thanks.

[Ka30P]

My pond, here in zone 7, is about two feet deep.
The ice can get as thick as four to five inches but that is very rare as we
have mild winters. You need to plan for conditions in your area.
Frogs don't bury themselves too much, they just like to snuggle up. So I would
not put in a mud hole in the pond. Turtles and frogs have overwintered in my
pond with just a thin layer of muck down there. Depends on the year but could
have been as thick as two inches.
More important is a hole open in the ice.


ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Dave]

(Ka30P) wrote in message >...
> My pond, here in zone 7, is about two feet deep.
> The ice can get as thick as four to five inches but that is very rare as we
> have mild winters. You need to plan for conditions in your area.
> Frogs don't bury themselves too much, they just like to snuggle up. So I would
> not put in a mud hole in the pond. Turtles and frogs have overwintered in my
> pond with just a thin layer of muck down there. Depends on the year but could
> have been as thick as two inches.
> More important is a hole open in the ice.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? It seems
that we don't get the cold winters we did years ago here but still the
ice can easily get to six inches and stay frozen for many weeks. I
could poke a small hole in the ice but it would freeze up within a
short time. We don't get enough wind to do any wind-powered trickery.

[Ka30P]

Dave wrote << And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? >>

No power out there, eh?
Then I suggest you make the pond as big
as you can afford. Stock it very lightly with a some
rosie red minnows or use mosquito dunks to keep the mosquito larvae down. No
lilies in the pond, unless you remove them before winter (plant in pots). That
way you won't have the problem with an over abundance of rotting vegetation and
fish waste to produce toxic gasses.
Any severe winter is going to cause aquatic animal deaths but the cleaner the
pond is going into the winter the better the critters will do who spend the
winter under the ice.
Another way is to fill a milk jug with black sand and place a couple of them
around the pond. Works in milder winters.





ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[D Kat]

OK what does the blank sand do (and what is it???) DK
"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Dave wrote << And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond?
>>
>
> No power out there, eh?
> Then I suggest you make the pond as big
> as you can afford. Stock it very lightly with a some
> rosie red minnows or use mosquito dunks to keep the mosquito larvae down.
No
> lilies in the pond, unless you remove them before winter (plant in pots).
That
> way you won't have the problem with an over abundance of rotting
vegetation and
> fish waste to produce toxic gasses.
> Any severe winter is going to cause aquatic animal deaths but the cleaner
the
> pond is going into the winter the better the critters will do who spend
the
> winter under the ice.
> Another way is to fill a milk jug with black sand and place a couple of
them
> around the pond. Works in milder winters.
>
>
>
>
>
> ka30p
> http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Ka30P]

>> Another way is to fill a milk jug with black sand <<

black. black sand. It soaks up the sun's warmth
and helps melt the ice.
:-)

ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergardeninglabradors/home.html

[Dave]

(Ka30P) wrote in message >...
> Dave wrote << And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? >>
>
> No power out there, eh?
> Then I suggest you make the pond as big
> as you can afford. Stock it very lightly with a some rosie red
> minnows or use mosquito dunks to keep the mosquito larvae down.
> No lilies in the pond, unless you remove them before winter (plant
> in pots). That way you won't have the problem with an over abundance
> of rotting vegetation and fish waste to produce toxic gasses.
> Any severe winter is going to cause aquatic animal deaths but the
> cleaner the pond is going into the winter the better the critters
> will do who spend the winter under the ice. Another way is to fill
> a milk jug with black sand and place a couple of them around the
> pond. Works in milder winters.

The black jug idea makes me wonder. Maybe a black copper pipe stuck in
the ice? The area gets some sun in the winter so maybe a solar cell
could do something. I could probably carry an airtank down there
occasionally and drive a pike through the ice and then inject air into
the water, but from my compressor the air might be tainted with a bit
of oil vapor so I don't know if this would accomplish more harm than
good. Alternately maybe I could vent the tank slowly and create a few
hours of bubbles. What about plants such as cattails? As far as size
I'm hoping for around ten feet in diameter and a few feet deep, but
should I create a shallower shoreline?

[John Maddock]

<snip>

>And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? It seems
>that we don't get the cold winters we did years ago here but still the
>ice can easily get to six inches and stay frozen for many weeks. I
>could poke a small hole in the ice but it would freeze up within a
>short time. We don't get enough wind to do any wind-powered trickery.

(I think this reply got lost?)

You could try an Ice Guard, see:

http://www.greenideasltd.co.uk/

We have one in our pond and it seems to work quite well.

John.

[Dave]

(John Maddock) wrote in message >...
> <snip>
>
> >And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? It seems
> >that we don't get the cold winters we did years ago here but still the
> >ice can easily get to six inches and stay frozen for many weeks. I
> >could poke a small hole in the ice but it would freeze up within a
> >short time. We don't get enough wind to do any wind-powered trickery.
>
> (I think this reply got lost?)
>
> You could try an Ice Guard, see:
>
> http://www.greenideasltd.co.uk/
>
> We have one in our pond and it seems to work quite well.
>
> John.

Looks interesting. Is this a floating solar heated thing?

[Ka30P]

Dave wrote
>>What about plants such as cattails? <<

The trick to cattails is to keep them under control.
In an earth pond they will grow completely across unless the pond is deep
enough. I'm trying to remember what the magic depth is that cattails don't
like. In a planter pot they do fine other than taking over the pot and jumping
out with their razor sharp runners. But if you repot and keep up with them they
do fine. They will tip over in the wind in pots unless anchored.
If you are looking to attract wildlife I would go with a nice shallow
shoreline. Plants at the pond edge are important for cover for critters like
frogs and turtles and salamanders and newts. Also nice for animals that need a
drink.
If I were to do a pond like this, lined. I would make a wide shallow end and
cover it with rock or slate. To keep deer from damaging the liner. You'll have
to keep it weeded as it will grow over. I had a bog area fill all the way in
with grass that started as seeds that I harvested from the lake that my MIL
lives on.

If you only have a few fish, minnows for instance, I would not worry too much
about getting a hole open in the ice. Keep the stocking level very low, skim
the leaves in the fall and you should be okay.


kathy 30acre :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

[Zeuspaul]

>should I create a shallower shoreline?

Wildlife ponds should have sloping sides.

The Pacific Tree Frogs like my clay wildlife pond with sloping sides. In
the evening they hop to the waterline and sit half in and half out of the
water as they croak.

I believe the pond loses very little water through the clay bottom. The
minimal seepage through the bottom probably helps keep the pond clean and
the mineral build-up down...no need to change out water.

The clay pond does lose more water than my preforms in the summer
time....it is a chore keeping all of them filled in the summer...small
advantage here to the plastic ponds. The clay pond loses more water in the
warmer months due to the wicking of water to the dirt above at the
waterline. I don't think a liner on the bottom is necessary if you have
clay soil...however a liner at the waterline would help reduce the wicking
action. Perhaps rocks would work instead of the liner at the water's edge.

I use the sprinkler system to keep the clay pond filled.

[John Maddock]

(Dave) writes:
(John Maddock) wrote in message >...
>> <snip>
>>
>> >And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? It seems
>> >that we don't get the cold winters we did years ago here but still the
>> >ice can easily get to six inches and stay frozen for many weeks. I
>> >could poke a small hole in the ice but it would freeze up within a
>> >short time. We don't get enough wind to do any wind-powered trickery.
>>
>> (I think this reply got lost?)
>>
>> You could try an Ice Guard, see:
>>
>> http://www.greenideasltd.co.uk/
>>
>> We have one in our pond and it seems to work quite well.
>>
>> John.
>
>Looks interesting. Is this a floating solar heated thing?

No it's not solar powered but relies on its insulating properties. According
to the website it has been tested down to -4F and it rarely gets lower than
that here in Scotland. Frogs certainly like it.

John.

[Dave]

(John Maddock) wrote in message >...
> (Dave) writes:
> (John Maddock) wrote in message >...
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >And just how do you keep a hole in the ice on a remote pond? It seems
> >> >that we don't get the cold winters we did years ago here but still the
> >> >ice can easily get to six inches and stay frozen for many weeks. I
> >> >could poke a small hole in the ice but it would freeze up within a
> >> >short time. We don't get enough wind to do any wind-powered trickery.
> >>
> >> (I think this reply got lost?)
> >>
> >> You could try an Ice Guard, see:
> >>
> >> http://www.greenideasltd.co.uk/
> >>
> >> We have one in our pond and it seems to work quite well.
> >>
> >> John.
> >
> >Looks interesting. Is this a floating solar heated thing?
>
> No it's not solar powered but relies on its insulating properties. According
> to the website it has been tested down to -4F and it rarely gets lower than
> that here in Scotland. Frogs certainly like it.
>
> John.

So it is like a little styrofoam house with an aluminum tube? Unless
there is a US distributor I can hardly consider spending roughly $70
on something that one rock throwing child will easily destroy... but
the idea looks interesting -- if it really works. Seems amazing that
it could work down to -4F in the dead of night.

[Hal]

On 28 Jan 2004 02:27:33 GMT, (Ka30P) wrote:

>The trick to cattails is to keep them under control.

You could eat them! :)
http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants.Folder/Cattails.html

Regards,

Hal

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

If you cold periods don't last too long you could make do with a battery
powered aerator. Just go to Walmart's Sporting section where the fishing
(for sport) equipment is. They have them for keeping bait alive. Big
Bubbles are the one's I have in case the power goes out. ~ jan


>> >> You could try an Ice Guard, see:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.greenideasltd.co.uk/
>> >>
>> >> We have one in our pond and it seems to work quite well.
>> >>
>> >> John.
>> >
>> >Looks interesting. Is this a floating solar heated thing?
>>
>> No it's not solar powered but relies on its insulating properties. According
>> to the website it has been tested down to -4F and it rarely gets lower than
>> that here in Scotland. Frogs certainly like it.
>>
>> John.
>
>So it is like a little styrofoam house with an aluminum tube? Unless
>there is a US distributor I can hardly consider spending roughly $70
>on something that one rock throwing child will easily destroy... but
>the idea looks interesting -- if it really works. Seems amazing that
>it could work down to -4F in the dead of night.

[Broomhilda]

Many cattle farmers in WV put a log into their remote ponds. This allegedly
helps keep an open space. I assume that the sun hitting the dark bark heats
the log and thus keeps the area around it ice free. Don't know if this is
nonsense or not.


"Anne Lurie" > wrote in message
m...
> Here's the FAQ site for rec.ponds:
> http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
>
> Anne Lurie
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> "Dave" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
> > from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
> > frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
> > The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
> > whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
> > depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
> > wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
> > pond FAQ? Thanks.
>
>

[Offbreed]

Broomhilda wrote:

> Many cattle farmers in WV put a log into their remote ponds. This allegedly
> helps keep an open space. I assume that the sun hitting the dark bark heats
> the log and thus keeps the area around it ice free. Don't know if this is
> nonsense or not.

Yes, that would work. The log would freeze in place now and then, but
an open spot will develop near the log after a day or two.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:27:37 GMT, "Broomhilda" >
wrote:

>Many cattle farmers in WV put a log into their remote ponds. This allegedly
>helps keep an open space. I assume that the sun hitting the dark bark heats
>the log and thus keeps the area around it ice free. Don't know if this is
>nonsense or not.
>
Logs are also used to absorb the expansion of the ice so it doesn't damage
the sides of a cement pond or swimming pool. ~ jan

[Dave]

Perhaps a length of big black PVC pipe?


"Broomhilda" > wrote:
> Many cattle farmers in WV put a log into their remote ponds. This allegedly
> helps keep an open space. I assume that the sun hitting the dark bark heats
> the log and thus keeps the area around it ice free. Don't know if this is
> nonsense or not.
>
>
> "Anne Lurie" > wrote:
> >
> > Here's the FAQ site for rec.ponds:
> > http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
> >
> > Anne Lurie
> > Raleigh, NC
> >
> >
> > "Dave" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I'm digging a small pond at a point that will collect runoff water
> > > from a wooded area. I'm hoping to attract wildlife and perhaps a few
> > > frogs. I'm hoping a few goldfish will control the mosquito production.
> > > The planned size is perhaps 8 x 10 feet. I'm still trying to determine
> > > whether a liner will be required. I would like to know the optimum
> > > depth and contour and what plantings would be good. This is a shady
> > > wooded area near St. Louis. Perhaps someone could point me to a small
> > > pond FAQ? Thanks.
> >
> >