Safety of Copper Pipes?

[BenignVanilla]

I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
matter.

Any thoughts?

BV.
www.iheartmypond.com

[Ken Russell]

Not sure about its safety for fish. But your criteria "I figure it safe for
us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that matter." is not
sound. Chlorinated water is safe for us to drink but deadly to fish :-(

Ken Russell

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
| I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
| am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
| thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
| it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
| matter.
|
| Any thoughts?
|
| BV.
| www.iheartmypond.com
|
|


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If you have plants in your aquarium, the copper will either stunt them or
kill them eventually. Stick with plastic or stainless steel.

Dean

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
> am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
> thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
> it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
> matter.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> BV.
> www.iheartmypond.com
>
>

[RichToyBox]

Copper will oxidize, though slowly, and the oxide will enter the water. It
is very toxic once it reaches a certain concentration. When I started with
aquaria about 30 years ago, the only cure for many of the parasites was to
put copper pennies in the water, and when the fish started to roll, do a
major water change. If it almost killed the fish, it probably killed the
parasites.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
> am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
> thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
> it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
> matter.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> BV.
> www.iheartmypond.com
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Ken Russell" > wrote in message
u...
> Not sure about its safety for fish. But your criteria "I figure it safe
for
> us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that matter." is
not
> sound. Chlorinated water is safe for us to drink but deadly to fish :-(
<snip>

That's true, but I can treat for that, and the treatments are readily
available. I have never seen DeCopper anywhere. LOL.

BV.
www.iheartmypond.com

[BenignVanilla]

"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
news:lIVVb.264673$xy6.1336469@attbi_s02...
> Copper will oxidize, though slowly, and the oxide will enter the water.
It
> is very toxic once it reaches a certain concentration. When I started
with
> aquaria about 30 years ago, the only cure for many of the parasites was to
> put copper pennies in the water, and when the fish started to roll, do a
> major water change. If it almost killed the fish, it probably killed the
> parasites.
<snip>

So is it safe to assume the water 'standing' in normal household pipes is
not a problem because it is changed so often? Back to the drawing board I
guess.

BV.
www.iheartmypond.com

[Sam Hopkins]

If your PH is < 7.0 it will leech and be dissolved into the water column and
build up and affect your fish. If your PH is > 7.0 it will precipitate out
and not affect anything. I know this from treating acid mine drainage.

Sam

P.S. Most dechlorinators now a days are also heavy metal removers.


"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
> am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
> thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
> it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
> matter.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> BV.
> www.iheartmypond.com
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
.. .
> If your PH is < 7.0 it will leech and be dissolved into the water column
and
> build up and affect your fish. If your PH is > 7.0 it will precipitate out
> and not affect anything. I know this from treating acid mine drainage.
>
> Sam
>
> P.S. Most dechlorinators now a days are also heavy metal removers.
<snip>

Sam...I'll take your word for it, but I think I'll go with PVC. It's cheap.

BV.
www.iheartmypond.com

[Sam Hopkins]

Yeah but then we'll never know. =)

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > If your PH is < 7.0 it will leech and be dissolved into the water column
> and
> > build up and affect your fish. If your PH is > 7.0 it will precipitate
out
> > and not affect anything. I know this from treating acid mine drainage.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> > P.S. Most dechlorinators now a days are also heavy metal removers.
> <snip>
>
> Sam...I'll take your word for it, but I think I'll go with PVC. It's
cheap.
>
> BV.
> www.iheartmypond.com
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
.. .
> Yeah but then we'll never know. =)
<snip>

LOL.

BV.

[John Hines]

"Pond Newbie" > wrote:

>Just theorizing, though. I know most places that have fish in their fountains now have
>signs asking that pennies (or any coin) not be thrown in the water. I would assume this to
>be the reason.

Pennies in the last decade or so have been made of copper plated zinc.

Neither is safe for fish.

[fuerjefe]

Sam Hopkins wrote:
> If your PH is < 7.0 it will leech and be dissolved into the water column and
> build up and affect your fish. If your PH is > 7.0 it will precipitate out
> and not affect anything. I know this from treating acid mine drainage.
>
> Sam
>
>.hmmmph our well water ph here runs about 8-9 and will disolve a copper pipe in a year or two
in 1999 they put in a new subdivision an school near here and have had
to replace all lthe copper pipes with pvc because of leaks, a real pain
when the pipes are in under a concrete slab

John Rutz

[Sam Hopkins]

My guess is there's something more sinister going on. Copper pipes have been
used a long long long time in homes with water that is above 7 PH and the
plumping in them still exists after 80 years.

Sam

"fuerjefe" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Sam Hopkins wrote:
> > If your PH is < 7.0 it will leech and be dissolved into the water column
and
> > build up and affect your fish. If your PH is > 7.0 it will precipitate
out
> > and not affect anything. I know this from treating acid mine drainage.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >.hmmmph our well water ph here runs about 8-9 and will disolve a copper
pipe in a year or two
> in 1999 they put in a new subdivision an school near here and have had
> to replace all lthe copper pipes with pvc because of leaks, a real pain
> when the pipes are in under a concrete slab
>
> John Rutz
>

[Cla]

Years ago I took a fish health course at Dr. Gratjeck(sp?) and in the
class there was a real horror story about an exotic fish store that
had major fish kill because someone attached a copper line to the
filter system. I do not rember the chemical reaction that caused the
toxic condition, but I have always been very cautious about copper
ever since.

Cla




"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message >...
> I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over. I
> am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun. Any
> thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I figure
> it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
> matter.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> BV.
> www.iheartmypond.com

[Sam Hopkins]

I think the "Don't use copper pipe" warnings may be a typical case of "in
theory" and "I heard once" information that often gets sent around fish
groups because it just sounds "right". I'd argue that what did ornamental
ponds and fish stores use before PVC pipe existed? Copper of course and they
were all fine.

Sam


"Cla" > wrote in message
om...
> Years ago I took a fish health course at Dr. Gratjeck(sp?) and in the
> class there was a real horror story about an exotic fish store that
> had major fish kill because someone attached a copper line to the
> filter system. I do not rember the chemical reaction that caused the
> toxic condition, but I have always been very cautious about copper
> ever since.
>
> Cla
>
>
>
>
> "BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
>...
> > I just replumbed my entire house with copper, and I have some left over.
I
> > am thinking about building a DIY filter for my aquarium, just for fun.
Any
> > thoughts on the safety of using copper in an aquaria environment? I
figure
> > it safe for us to drink, it should be safe in the tank or pond for that
> > matter.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > BV.
> > www.iheartmypond.com

[ajames54]

John Hines > wrote in message >...
> "Pond Newbie" > wrote:
>
> >Just theorizing, though. I know most places that have fish in their fountains now have
> >signs asking that pennies (or any coin) not be thrown in the water. I would assume this to
> >be the reason.
>
> Pennies in the last decade or so have been made of copper plated zinc.
>
> Neither is safe for fish.

And to make things more fun the presence of zinc significantly
increases the toxicity of copper...

[Hal]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:23:21 -0500, "Sam Hopkins"
> wrote:

>My guess is there's something more sinister going on. Copper pipes have been
>used a long long long time in homes with water that is above 7 PH and the
>plumping in them still exists after 80 years.

There was a flap about copper pipes not standing up to water here and
someone blamed impurities in the copper. Sounds reasonable to me,
but I'm not a metallurgist, just a tinkerer. At the time of the flap
most of the copper tube was being imported, can't remember which
country was making it cheap enough to ship it in cheaper than we could
make it here, but sometimes you get what you pay for.

Regards,

Hal

[Offbreed]

ajames54 wrote:

> And to make things more fun the presence of zinc significantly
> increases the toxicity of copper...

That reminds me.

Little children sometimes swallow coins. The old penny, solid bronze,
was not too bad. The newer pennies with the zinc inside are deadly.
Remember that around the brats.

[Offbreed]

Hal wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:23:21 -0500, "Sam Hopkins"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>My guess is there's something more sinister going on. Copper pipes have been
>>used a long long long time in homes with water that is above 7 PH and the
>>plumping in them still exists after 80 years.
>
>
> There was a flap about copper pipes not standing up to water here and
> someone blamed impurities in the copper. Sounds reasonable to me,

I've heard that electrical currents through the ground and using water
pipe for ground can also be a problem. I am not an electrician, so
anyone with a problem should ask an expert.

[Andy Hill]

Offbreed > wrote:
>ajames54 wrote:
>
>> And to make things more fun the presence of zinc significantly
>> increases the toxicity of copper...
>
>That reminds me.
>
>Little children sometimes swallow coins. The old penny, solid bronze,
>was not too bad. The newer pennies with the zinc inside are deadly.
>Remember that around the brats.
>
Hmmmm. While Zinc Toxicosis is nothing to sneer at, "deadly" is exaggerating
things a bit, methinks.

[Steve J. Noll]

FWIW:

OASE Mineralife, "Essential Trace Minerals for Koi and Pond Fish"
contains copper as well as zinc, aluminum, boron, bromine, calcium
chromium, chlorine, cobalt, iodine, iron, lithium, magnesium,
manganese, molybdenum, nickel, potassium, selenium, sodium, strontium,
sulfur and vanadium.

Kent Koi Essential, "Essential Trace Mineral Supplement for Koi and
Other Pond Fish" contains Copper sulphate, Zinc chloride, Potassium
chloride, Calcium chloride, Magnesium chloride, Potassium iodide,
Chromium chloride, Cobalt chloride, Ferric chloride, Manganese
chloride, Nickle chloride, Sodium metavanadate, Sodium molybdate,
Sodium selenate and Strontium chloride.

U.S. Aquagarden Vigor, "Essential Trace Minerals for Koi and Pond
Fish" is identical to the Kent product, also containing copper and
zinc.


Steve J. Noll | Ventura California
| Glass Block Pond http://www.kissingfrogs.tv

[GD]

It sounds as though two subjects are being discussed in this thread.

1) Fish toxicity. As I understand it, low pH will dissolve copper
pipes. Because copper is variably toxic to fish (dependent upon
species), this can be very bad, and suggests that avoiding the use of
copper pipes for fish is prudent.

2) Pipe integrity. As Hal points out, copper pipes used today contain
alloys that do not stand up well to high temperatures and/or high flow
rates. They degrade (independently of pH), but do not leach copper at
excessive rates (unless pH is low) . In effect, the copper pipe
becomes a copper sponge tube. Might not be bad for fish, but leaks
are likely to occur.

Use PVC piping. Minimum Schedule 40.

Hal > wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:23:21 -0500, "Sam Hopkins"
> wrote:
>
>>My guess is there's something more sinister going on. Copper pipes have been
>>used a long long long time in homes with water that is above 7 PH and the
>>plumping in them still exists after 80 years.
>
>There was a flap about copper pipes not standing up to water here and
>someone blamed impurities in the copper. Sounds reasonable to me,
>but I'm not a metallurgist, just a tinkerer. At the time of the flap
>most of the copper tube was being imported, can't remember which
>country was making it cheap enough to ship it in cheaper than we could
>make it here, but sometimes you get what you pay for.
>
>Regards,
>
>Hal

[Dan D.]

(Cla) wrote in message >...
> Years ago I took a fish health course at Dr. Gratjeck(sp?) and in the
> class there was a real horror story about an exotic fish store that
> had major fish kill because someone attached a copper line......

Wild guess here but maybe the "exotic" fish were salt water fish.
Maybe the Salt water and copper reacted?
Especially if there was another metal in the system they could have
had a bad case of electrolisis.

I know I've got a copper patch on the side of my preform pond that's
3 years old. My fish are still ok.

While were repeating things that need repeating - did you
know that Madeline Murray O'Hare was trying to get Touched by an
Angel removed from TV??? <--- I'M JUST KIDDING!!!!

Peace!
Dan D. Louisville Ky good ole USA
http://ky-dan.com

[REBEL JOE]

Ahhh but do the people still exist??=BF=BF



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

[[email protected]]

acid water an metals are not a good combination.

(Dan D.) wrote:

(Cla) wrote in message >...
>> Years ago I took a fish health course at Dr. Gratjeck(sp?) and in the
>> class there was a real horror story about an exotic fish store that
>> had major fish kill because someone attached a copper line......
>
>Wild guess here but maybe the "exotic" fish were salt water fish.
>Maybe the Salt water and copper reacted?
>Especially if there was another metal in the system they could have
>had a bad case of electrolisis.
>
>I know I've got a copper patch on the side of my preform pond that's
>3 years old. My fish are still ok.
>
>While were repeating things that need repeating - did you
>know that Madeline Murray O'Hare was trying to get Touched by an
>Angel removed from TV??? <--- I'M JUST KIDDING!!!!
>
>Peace!
>Dan D. Louisville Ky good ole USA
> http://ky-dan.com



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[PlainBill]

I had a good example of that recently while remodeling my kitchen.
The copper water line to the icemaker was disconnected for over a
month while the plumbing was relocated, cabinets replaced, etc. When
the line was hooked up again water wouldn't flow. Approximately 6" at
one end was plugged with a bright greenish gunk - presumably the
product of a reaction between the local tap water, the copper, and
air.

PlainBill

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:33:15 GMT, wrote:

>acid water an metals are not a good combination.
>
(Dan D.) wrote:
>
(Cla) wrote in message >...
>>> Years ago I took a fish health course at Dr. Gratjeck(sp?) and in the
>>> class there was a real horror story about an exotic fish store that
>>> had major fish kill because someone attached a copper line......
>>
>>Wild guess here but maybe the "exotic" fish were salt water fish.
>>Maybe the Salt water and copper reacted?
>>Especially if there was another metal in the system they could have
>>had a bad case of electrolisis.
>>
>>I know I've got a copper patch on the side of my preform pond that's
>>3 years old. My fish are still ok.
>>
>>While were repeating things that need repeating - did you
>>know that Madeline Murray O'Hare was trying to get Touched by an
>>Angel removed from TV??? <--- I'M JUST KIDDING!!!!
>>
>>Peace!
>>Dan D. Louisville Ky good ole USA
>> http://ky-dan.com
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.