Expandable foam question

[grubber]

How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using EPDM
liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over the
rock and fall to the pool below.

Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water level
lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I know
I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
things.

[joe]

Here's what you do.

Place the liner.

Spray the foam onto the liner and then place the rock over the foam. It
won't be 100%, but pretty close. The foam works better this way than trying
to lay a "bead" of it afterwards.

FYI, This past weekend I reworked my stream a bit and tried the cheap stuff
from the home depot rather than the black stuff hawked by the pond industry.
Worked like a charm. Kind of ugly though. But others on this list seem
assured it will turn a less offensive color soon (If not I can always go
back to the black stuff later)

Joe


On 3/15/04 3:23 PM, "grubber" > wrote:

> How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
> wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using EPDM
> liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
> feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
> like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
> foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over the
> rock and fall to the pool below.
>
> Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
> water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water level
> lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I know
> I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
> things.



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[joe]

Here's what you do.

Place the liner.

Spray the foam onto the liner and then place the rock over the foam. It
won't be 100%, but pretty close. The foam works better this way than trying
to lay a "bead" of it afterwards.

FYI, This past weekend I reworked my stream a bit and tried the cheap stuff
from the home depot rather than the black stuff hawked by the pond industry.
Worked like a charm. Kind of ugly though. But others on this list seem
assured it will turn a less offensive color soon (If not I can always go
back to the black stuff later)

Joe


On 3/15/04 3:23 PM, "grubber" > wrote:

> How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
> wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using EPDM
> liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
> feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
> like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
> foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over the
> rock and fall to the pool below.
>
> Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
> water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water level
> lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I know
> I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
> things.



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[Bonnie]

joe wrote:
> Here's what you do.
>
> Place the liner.
>
> Spray the foam onto the liner and then place the rock over the foam. It
> won't be 100%, but pretty close. The foam works better this way than trying
> to lay a "bead" of it afterwards.
>
> FYI, This past weekend I reworked my stream a bit and tried the cheap stuff
> from the home depot rather than the black stuff hawked by the pond industry.
> Worked like a charm. Kind of ugly though. But others on this list seem
> assured it will turn a less offensive color soon (If not I can always go
> back to the black stuff later)
>
> Joe
>
>
> On 3/15/04 3:23 PM, "grubber" > wrote:
>
>
>>How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
>>wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using EPDM
>>liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
>>feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
>>like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
>>foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over the
>>rock and fall to the pool below.
>>
>>Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
>>water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water level
>>lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I know
>>I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
>>things.
>
>
And later on, if you develop a leak - check this place first.

The best thing to seal two pieces of liner together is the
expensive tape.
--
Bonnie
NJ

[Bonnie]

joe wrote:
> Here's what you do.
>
> Place the liner.
>
> Spray the foam onto the liner and then place the rock over the foam. It
> won't be 100%, but pretty close. The foam works better this way than trying
> to lay a "bead" of it afterwards.
>
> FYI, This past weekend I reworked my stream a bit and tried the cheap stuff
> from the home depot rather than the black stuff hawked by the pond industry.
> Worked like a charm. Kind of ugly though. But others on this list seem
> assured it will turn a less offensive color soon (If not I can always go
> back to the black stuff later)
>
> Joe
>
>
> On 3/15/04 3:23 PM, "grubber" > wrote:
>
>
>>How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
>>wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using EPDM
>>liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
>>feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
>>like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
>>foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over the
>>rock and fall to the pool below.
>>
>>Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
>>water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water level
>>lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I know
>>I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
>>things.
>
>
And later on, if you develop a leak - check this place first.

The best thing to seal two pieces of liner together is the
expensive tape.
--
Bonnie
NJ

[grubber]

Thanks for all the replies.

But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool under
the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below and
then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.

My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

[grubber]

Thanks for all the replies.

But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool under
the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below and
then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.

My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

[BenignVanilla]

"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
> that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
> drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool
under
> the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below
and
> then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.
>
> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between
the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

If I understand correctly, you can't move the rock so lifting it and placing
say some sealing tape under it, would not work. What I would do is place a
small strip of liner over the edge of the rock where it meets the liner, and
seal that. Or squirt foam into the crevace, trim and then fill.

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
> that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
> drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool
under
> the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below
and
> then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.
>
> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between
the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

If I understand correctly, you can't move the rock so lifting it and placing
say some sealing tape under it, would not work. What I would do is place a
small strip of liner over the edge of the rock where it meets the liner, and
seal that. Or squirt foam into the crevace, trim and then fill.

BV.

[stricks760]

I wouldn't count on just the foam. It's supposedly something like 95%
water-blocking. My experience on a waterfall that cascades through three
pools with about 8' of drop substantiates this. In my case, the foam directs
MOST of the water over the falls, but not all of it.

As far as what WILL work, I have no experience with this, but they make
those fake-rock waterfalls waterproof using concrete (textured with a
rock-like pad), then painted with waterproofing, then painted. Maybe you
could bridge the gap that way. You'd still have a joint between concrete
and rock though.You can't jack the flat rock up, and slip liner underneath?


"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
> wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using
EPDM
> liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
> feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
> like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
> foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over
the
> rock and fall to the pool below.
>
> Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
> water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water
level
> lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I
know
> I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
> things.
>
>

[stricks760]

I wouldn't count on just the foam. It's supposedly something like 95%
water-blocking. My experience on a waterfall that cascades through three
pools with about 8' of drop substantiates this. In my case, the foam directs
MOST of the water over the falls, but not all of it.

As far as what WILL work, I have no experience with this, but they make
those fake-rock waterfalls waterproof using concrete (textured with a
rock-like pad), then painted with waterproofing, then painted. Maybe you
could bridge the gap that way. You'd still have a joint between concrete
and rock though.You can't jack the flat rock up, and slip liner underneath?


"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> How waterproof is that stuff? I'm putting in a stream and there are many
> wide flat limestone rocks that I would like to incorporate, while using
EPDM
> liner for most of the stream. In particular, there is a rock about five
> feet in diameter, about 4 inches thick that has a nice overhang. I would
> like to dig the dirt back about a foot, lay liner back under the rock and
> foam the seam where liner meets rock so I can have the stream flow over
the
> rock and fall to the pool below.
>
> Will the foam be good enough to waterproof the seam so I can have standing
> water there, or only enough to deflect splashing water with the water
level
> lower than the edge of the liner? Is there a better way to do this? I
know
> I can do the Gatorgard spray-in stuff, but that's on the pricey side of
> things.
>
>

[Morten]

"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
> that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
> drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool
under
> the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below
and
> then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.
>
> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between
the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

What's wrong with good old fashinoed Silicone and lots of it :-)

That stuff will make anything watertight and it's practically indestructible
if the right type is used.


The good thing about Silicone is that it can only be removed with brute
force, the bad thing about Silicone is tha it can only be removed with brute
force...


Just make sure that both surfaces are dry, clean and dust free and you'll be
fine using Silicone...



/Morten




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[Morten]

"grubber" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> But I'm not trying to seal liner together. I have a very large flat rock
> that is mostly buried. The downslope edge hangs out a little over a 6"
> drop. I want to dig back further under the rock to form a small pool
under
> the drop. The stream would flow over the rock, fall into the pool below
and
> then continue on its way. The pool would have a liner bottom.
>
> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between
the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

What's wrong with good old fashinoed Silicone and lots of it :-)

That stuff will make anything watertight and it's practically indestructible
if the right type is used.


The good thing about Silicone is that it can only be removed with brute
force, the bad thing about Silicone is tha it can only be removed with brute
force...


Just make sure that both surfaces are dry, clean and dust free and you'll be
fine using Silicone...



/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[grubber]

"stricks760" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I wouldn't count on just the foam. It's supposedly something like 95%
> water-blocking. My experience on a waterfall that cascades through three
> pools with about 8' of drop substantiates this. In my case, the foam
directs
> MOST of the water over the falls, but not all of it.
>
> As far as what WILL work, I have no experience with this, but they make
> those fake-rock waterfalls waterproof using concrete (textured with a
> rock-like pad), then painted with waterproofing, then painted. Maybe you
> could bridge the gap that way. You'd still have a joint between concrete
> and rock though.You can't jack the flat rock up, and slip liner
underneath?
>

I'll probably go with the concrete. There was some white fiberous
waterproof concrete that I'd used before that would probably work. As for
jacking up the rock, the exposed part is 5 foot in diameter , although only
a few inches thick. If that's all, then I could probably jack it up, but I
have a feeling that's just the tip of the iceberg. We've got lots of rocks.
There used to be a quarry about a mile from here. When I dug my 20'x30'
pond, I could only go down 20" because it was one single rock for the entire
area. I had to raise the edge another 15" with the excavated dirt.

[grubber]

"stricks760" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I wouldn't count on just the foam. It's supposedly something like 95%
> water-blocking. My experience on a waterfall that cascades through three
> pools with about 8' of drop substantiates this. In my case, the foam
directs
> MOST of the water over the falls, but not all of it.
>
> As far as what WILL work, I have no experience with this, but they make
> those fake-rock waterfalls waterproof using concrete (textured with a
> rock-like pad), then painted with waterproofing, then painted. Maybe you
> could bridge the gap that way. You'd still have a joint between concrete
> and rock though.You can't jack the flat rock up, and slip liner
underneath?
>

I'll probably go with the concrete. There was some white fiberous
waterproof concrete that I'd used before that would probably work. As for
jacking up the rock, the exposed part is 5 foot in diameter , although only
a few inches thick. If that's all, then I could probably jack it up, but I
have a feeling that's just the tip of the iceberg. We've got lots of rocks.
There used to be a quarry about a mile from here. When I dug my 20'x30'
pond, I could only go down 20" because it was one single rock for the entire
area. I had to raise the edge another 15" with the excavated dirt.

[joe]

Sorry, misunderstood your question. I thought you placing liner, then the
rock on top of it. But you're not moving the rock.

Okay, a couple of things.

I don't know what your flow rate is, but I think you would lose too much
water using the foam.

Can you pull the liner so it goes up the side of the stream and a certain
distance back up the underside of the rock so the underside of the rock has
liner on it? If so, apply some marine grade caulk to the underside of the
rock and the top of the liner and press the two together, then keep the
liner in contact with the big rock with smaller rocks.

I've used it before. It's a pain in the butt, but it sure sticks.

You might also try applying a bead of window or bathtub caulk along the
bottom edge of the rock before it gets to the liner. Apply it and then make
it into a "V" shape. When the water gets to this it may drip down into the
stream before it hits the liner.


Joe

On 3/16/04 12:07 PM, "grubber" > wrote:

> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"



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[joe]

Sorry, misunderstood your question. I thought you placing liner, then the
rock on top of it. But you're not moving the rock.

Okay, a couple of things.

I don't know what your flow rate is, but I think you would lose too much
water using the foam.

Can you pull the liner so it goes up the side of the stream and a certain
distance back up the underside of the rock so the underside of the rock has
liner on it? If so, apply some marine grade caulk to the underside of the
rock and the top of the liner and press the two together, then keep the
liner in contact with the big rock with smaller rocks.

I've used it before. It's a pain in the butt, but it sure sticks.

You might also try applying a bead of window or bathtub caulk along the
bottom edge of the rock before it gets to the liner. Apply it and then make
it into a "V" shape. When the water gets to this it may drip down into the
stream before it hits the liner.


Joe

On 3/16/04 12:07 PM, "grubber" > wrote:

> My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
> pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"



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[Hal]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:07:53 GMT, "grubber"
> wrote:

>My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
>pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

I made a concrete liner to go behind my waterfall and sealed it to the
fiberglass formed pond liner below the falls with GE Silicon
glue/calk. Then stacked stones on top hiding the liner and the water
flows over the stones, but what follows the contours of the stones
and flows the wrong way is caught in the liner to prevent it escaping
the pond.

Regards,

Hal

[Hal]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:07:53 GMT, "grubber"
> wrote:

>My basic question is, "Is it possible to make a waterproof join between the
>pool liner and the immovable rock, and if so, how?"

I made a concrete liner to go behind my waterfall and sealed it to the
fiberglass formed pond liner below the falls with GE Silicon
glue/calk. Then stacked stones on top hiding the liner and the water
flows over the stones, but what follows the contours of the stones
and flows the wrong way is caught in the liner to prevent it escaping
the pond.

Regards,

Hal