Still green... [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

dkat

May 26th 04, 03:26 PM

It appears that you have an upper pond where you have some small water
lettuce (not a plant I would choose for filtering). Use water hyacinths in
there and it will do a remarkable job of filtering your water. From what I
can tell you have bare soil that is at a higher level than your pond. As
soon as this fills in with plants you will stop getting the erosion that is
making the pond somewhat muddy. If you can put in some landscape fabric and
rocks that should help (or how about planting some irises or ornamental
grasses there?). Do you fertilize your lawn? If so, keep it and other
chemicals far away from the pond where there is any chance of run off into
the pond (so the ground the slopes away from the pond should be ok as long
as you are a couple of feet away but ground that slopes towards the pond has
to be treated with real care.

It is a very pretty pond. Congratulations!

"Destroyallx" > wrote in message
.. .
> http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
>
> check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on here..
> im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont go
> away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more potted
> lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of lillies
> that bloomed already.
> what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
>
>

Jeff Spicoli

May 26th 04, 04:25 PM

"Destroyallx" > wrote in
:

> http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
>
> check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on
> here.. im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont
> go away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more
> potted lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of
> lillies that bloomed already.
> what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
>
>

UV...

I went a whole spring and much of summer with the same water and listening
to others advice about more plants, good bacteria, biological filter, blah,
blah, blah, and to just be patient and don't bother with a UV..

Well, I got tired of being patient, bought a UV and within a week or so,
crystal clear water... It has been crystal clear ever since...

If you are like me and don't care immensely about the NATURAL process of
clarity and just want a clear pond w/ healthy fish and plants; don't rule
out buying a UV...

I enjoy my pond much more seeing the colors in my fish down to the anacharis
coming out of my gravel bottom.

--
B. Swanky - Boutique Giftware with Flair!
Specializes in clothing and gifts for infant, baby and toddler. We also
carry upscale handbags and accessories for women.
http://www.bswanky.com

dkat

May 26th 04, 07:59 PM

If you take a look at the pictures, you will see that it is more than just
an issue of algae. The hyacinths not only take the nutrients out of the
water that keeps algae growing, they filter out the soil particles. They
are also almost maintenance free where a filter takes a lot of time and
effort especially under conditions where you have soil eroding into the pond
(note I say filter because even with a UV you then have to have some sort of
filtering if you go your route). UV lights are expensive and unnecessary in
my book but whatever tweaks your fancy.

"Jeff Spicoli" > wrote in message
45...
> "Destroyallx" > wrote in
> :
>
> > http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
> >
> > check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on
> > here.. im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> > its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont
> > go away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more
> > potted lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of
> > lillies that bloomed already.
> > what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
> >
> >
>
> UV...
>
> I went a whole spring and much of summer with the same water and listening
> to others advice about more plants, good bacteria, biological filter,
blah,
> blah, blah, and to just be patient and don't bother with a UV..
>
> Well, I got tired of being patient, bought a UV and within a week or so,
> crystal clear water... It has been crystal clear ever since...
>
> If you are like me and don't care immensely about the NATURAL process of
> clarity and just want a clear pond w/ healthy fish and plants; don't rule
> out buying a UV...
>
> I enjoy my pond much more seeing the colors in my fish down to the
anacharis
> coming out of my gravel bottom.
>
>
> --
> B. Swanky - Boutique Giftware with Flair!
> Specializes in clothing and gifts for infant, baby and toddler. We also
> carry upscale handbags and accessories for women.
> http://www.bswanky.com
>

Go Fig

May 26th 04, 08:31 PM

In article >, dkat
> wrote:

> If you take a look at the pictures, you will see that it is more than just
> an issue of algae. The hyacinths not only take the nutrients out of the
> water that keeps algae growing, they filter out the soil particles. They
> are also almost maintenance free where a filter takes a lot of time and
> effort especially under conditions where you have soil eroding into the pond
> (note I say filter because even with a UV you then have to have some sort of
> filtering if you go your route). UV lights are expensive and unnecessary in
> my book but whatever tweaks your fancy.

How much personal experience do you have with them?

jay
Wed May 26, 2004

>
> "Jeff Spicoli" > wrote in message
> 45...
> > "Destroyallx" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > > http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
> > >
> > > check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on
> > > here.. im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> > > its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont
> > > go away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more
> > > potted lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of
> > > lillies that bloomed already.
> > > what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
> > >
> > >
> >
> > UV...
> >
> > I went a whole spring and much of summer with the same water and listening
> > to others advice about more plants, good bacteria, biological filter,
> blah,
> > blah, blah, and to just be patient and don't bother with a UV..
> >
> > Well, I got tired of being patient, bought a UV and within a week or so,
> > crystal clear water... It has been crystal clear ever since...
> >
> > If you are like me and don't care immensely about the NATURAL process of
> > clarity and just want a clear pond w/ healthy fish and plants; don't rule
> > out buying a UV...
> >
> > I enjoy my pond much more seeing the colors in my fish down to the
> anacharis
> > coming out of my gravel bottom.
> >
> >
> > --
> > B. Swanky - Boutique Giftware with Flair!
> > Specializes in clothing and gifts for infant, baby and toddler. We also
> > carry upscale handbags and accessories for women.
> > http://www.bswanky.com
> >
>
>

volts500

May 26th 04, 08:39 PM

"Destroyallx" > wrote in message
.. .
> http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
>
> check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on here..
> im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont go
> away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more potted
> lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of lillies
> that bloomed already.
> what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time

Nice pond. IMHO, it's all about oxygen. The bacteria that help reduce the
nutrient load need lots of oxygen. Get some serious water
flow/circulation/gas exchange going on. In your case, a submersible
pump/fountain in the middle of the pond may work. Otherwise it looks like
it wouldn't be real difficult to add a (much larger) homemade bio/mechanical
filter with spray bar at the top of the waterfall and hide it with more
rocks/plants. A larger pump/tubing may be in order if you do that, though.

dkat

May 27th 04, 12:01 AM

UV's - none. I don't use them for a reason though I have a friend who had a
very small pond who used one and had crystal clear water. Her pond however
was in a deck (no silt runoff into the pond), was very shaded (that in
itself will keep the algae down) and was extremely small (maybe 3X3x1.5).
I'm not against UV, I just said that this pond has silt eroding into it and
needs more than a simple UV fix. I like my almost 'natural' way of doing
things but that is what tickles my 'fancy'. I'm also extremely lazy,
overworked, underpaid, 5'2", 55 yrs, out of shape, etc... I don't have the
time, energy, muscle or patience to do what a lot of ponders here do. My
setup is extremely simple, relatively small (about 1000 gals at most) and
crystal clear most of the time with very, very, little work involved (I
throw food at the fish, add water when needed, watch the cats make fools of
themselves lusting after the fish). My biggest concern is my three
butterfly koi and my albino cat getting too big for the pond and not knowing
what to do other than build a bigger pond :)

--
***************************************
Listen to Air America Radio
http://www.airamericaradio.com
***************************************
"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, dkat
> > wrote:
>
> > If you take a look at the pictures, you will see that it is more than
just
> > an issue of algae. The hyacinths not only take the nutrients out of the
> > water that keeps algae growing, they filter out the soil particles.
They
> > are also almost maintenance free where a filter takes a lot of time and
> > effort especially under conditions where you have soil eroding into the
pond
> > (note I say filter because even with a UV you then have to have some
sort of
> > filtering if you go your route). UV lights are expensive and
unnecessary in
> > my book but whatever tweaks your fancy.
>
> How much personal experience do you have with them?
>
> jay
> Wed May 26, 2004
>
>
>
> >
> > "Jeff Spicoli" > wrote in message
> > 45...
> > > "Destroyallx" > wrote in
> > > :
> > >
> > > > http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
> > > >
> > > > check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on
> > > > here.. im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> > > > its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just
wont
> > > > go away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more
> > > > potted lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch
of
> > > > lillies that bloomed already.
> > > > what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > UV...
> > >
> > > I went a whole spring and much of summer with the same water and
listening
> > > to others advice about more plants, good bacteria, biological filter,
> > blah,
> > > blah, blah, and to just be patient and don't bother with a UV..
> > >
> > > Well, I got tired of being patient, bought a UV and within a week or
so,
> > > crystal clear water... It has been crystal clear ever since...
> > >
> > > If you are like me and don't care immensely about the NATURAL process
of
> > > clarity and just want a clear pond w/ healthy fish and plants; don't
rule
> > > out buying a UV...
> > >
> > > I enjoy my pond much more seeing the colors in my fish down to the
> > anacharis
> > > coming out of my gravel bottom.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > B. Swanky - Boutique Giftware with Flair!
> > > Specializes in clothing and gifts for infant, baby and toddler. We
also
> > > carry upscale handbags and accessories for women.
> > > http://www.bswanky.com
> > >
> >
> >

joe

May 27th 04, 12:26 AM

Give into the dark side. You know you want to. ;)

Joe

On 5/26/04 4:01 PM, "dkat" > wrote:

> My biggest concern is my three
> butterfly koi and my albino cat getting too big for the pond and not knowing
> what to do other than build a bigger pond :)

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Go Fig

May 27th 04, 03:07 AM

In article >, dkat
> wrote:

> UV's - none. I don't use them for a reason though I have a friend who had a
> very small pond who used one and had crystal clear water. Her pond however
> was in a deck (no silt runoff into the pond), was very shaded (that in
> itself will keep the algae down) and was extremely small (maybe 3X3x1.5).
> I'm not against UV, I just said that this pond has silt eroding into it and
> needs more than a simple UV fix.

I agree the pond edge needs to be raised, but more for chemicals that
may be applied to that beautiful lawn and then commingle with the pond
water in heavy rain. I just don't think that that little soil border
is causing that much silt and I doubt much gets past the lawn.

This pic appears to be classic suspended algae:

http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/DSC02147.JPG

> I like my almost 'natural' way of doing
> things but that is what tickles my 'fancy'.

Lets be fair: you have a pump ? A mechanical filter (maybe) ? Would you
use meds ? How bout potash for all those water hyacinths of yours? Ever
drain your pond for a good cleaning ?

For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
ponds, natural or ornamental.

I'll start my campaign for venturi ozone at some point in the future :-)

jay
Wed May 26, 2004

> I'm also extremely lazy,
> overworked, underpaid, 5'2", 55 yrs, out of shape, etc... I don't have the
> time, energy, muscle or patience to do what a lot of ponders here do. My
> setup is extremely simple, relatively small (about 1000 gals at most) and
> crystal clear most of the time with very, very, little work involved (I
> throw food at the fish, add water when needed, watch the cats make fools of
> themselves lusting after the fish). My biggest concern is my three
> butterfly koi and my albino cat getting too big for the pond and not knowing
> what to do other than build a bigger pond :)

dkat

May 27th 04, 04:14 AM

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, dkat
> > wrote:
>
> > UV's - none. I don't use them for a reason though I have a friend who
had a
> > very small pond who used one and had crystal clear water. Her pond
however
> > was in a deck (no silt runoff into the pond), was very shaded (that in
> > itself will keep the algae down) and was extremely small (maybe
3X3x1.5).
> > I'm not against UV, I just said that this pond has silt eroding into it
and
> > needs more than a simple UV fix.
>
> I agree the pond edge needs to be raised, but more for chemicals that
> may be applied to that beautiful lawn and then commingle with the pond
> water in heavy rain. I just don't think that that little soil border
> is causing that much silt and I doubt much gets past the lawn.
>
> This pic appears to be classic suspended algae:
>
> http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/DSC02147.JPG

Look at the leaves of the waterlily and the horizonal sides of the liner.
Both have a layer of silt. The silt will also add nutrients that make the
algae flourish. Other pictures looked much more 'muddied' from silt than
algae but I agree on the picture you are showing it looks like spring algae
growth that I get before the hyacinth has been put into my upper pond and
taken over. If they use UV, I assume they will have to filter before the
UV. Is that the case? That is where in there current system would they put
the UV?

> > I like my almost 'natural' way of doing
> > things but that is what tickles my 'fancy'.
>
> Lets be fair: you have a pump ? A mechanical filter (maybe) ? Would you
> use meds ? How bout potash for all those water hyacinths of yours? Ever
> drain your pond for a good cleaning ?

This is why I said "almost 'natural'"

I have a pump to move the water up to the veggie filter. The pump
(waterfall pump that takes large particles) sits in a bucket with lava rocks
to serve as a bio filter. I don't clean out the pond (though when wading
through it to move rocks or plants I will scoop out leaves if they are under
foot and feel slippery... I don't use meds or potash. I did try dunking my
hyacinths in Miracle grow when I first started my pond thinking 'what could
it hurt'... killed them dead. As I said, I'm lazy - really, really lazy.
And now that I think of it I'm also cheap - really, really cheap. And again
I don't have anything negative to say about UVs. I simply posted what
works for me and is inexpensive and easy. Many far more competent people
here use UV as well as incredibly impressive filters, piping, drain systems,
etc.

And what is venturi ozone?

> For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> ponds, natural or ornamental.
>
> I'll start my campaign for venturi ozone at some point in the future :-)
>
> jay
> Wed May 26, 2004
>
>
>
> > I'm also extremely lazy,
> > overworked, underpaid, 5'2", 55 yrs, out of shape, etc... I don't have
the
> > time, energy, muscle or patience to do what a lot of ponders here do.
My
> > setup is extremely simple, relatively small (about 1000 gals at most)
and
> > crystal clear most of the time with very, very, little work involved (I
> > throw food at the fish, add water when needed, watch the cats make fools
of
> > themselves lusting after the fish). My biggest concern is my three
> > butterfly koi and my albino cat getting too big for the pond and not
knowing
> > what to do other than build a bigger pond :)

Go Fig

May 27th 04, 04:55 AM

In article >, dkat
> wrote:

> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, dkat
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > UV's - none. I don't use them for a reason though I have a friend who
> had a
> > > very small pond who used one and had crystal clear water. Her pond
> however
> > > was in a deck (no silt runoff into the pond), was very shaded (that in
> > > itself will keep the algae down) and was extremely small (maybe
> 3X3x1.5).
> > > I'm not against UV, I just said that this pond has silt eroding into it
> and
> > > needs more than a simple UV fix.
> >
> > I agree the pond edge needs to be raised, but more for chemicals that
> > may be applied to that beautiful lawn and then commingle with the pond
> > water in heavy rain. I just don't think that that little soil border
> > is causing that much silt and I doubt much gets past the lawn.
> >
> > This pic appears to be classic suspended algae:
> >
> > http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/DSC02147.JPG
>
>
> Look at the leaves of the waterlily and the horizonal sides of the liner.
> Both have a layer of silt. The silt will also add nutrients that make the
> algae flourish. Other pictures looked much more 'muddied' from silt than
> algae but I agree on the picture you are showing it looks like spring algae
> growth that I get before the hyacinth has been put into my upper pond and
> taken over. If they use UV, I assume they will have to filter before the
> UV. Is that the case? That is where in there current system would they put
> the UV?

The less turbid the water is the more efficient, so after any
mechanical filtration is better. As for the OP situation, I don't have
enough details from those pics.
>
>
> > > I like my almost 'natural' way of doing
> > > things but that is what tickles my 'fancy'.
> >
> > Lets be fair: you have a pump ? A mechanical filter (maybe) ? Would you
> > use meds ? How bout potash for all those water hyacinths of yours? Ever
> > drain your pond for a good cleaning ?
>
> This is why I said "almost 'natural'"
>
> I have a pump to move the water up to the veggie filter. The pump
> (waterfall pump that takes large particles) sits in a bucket with lava rocks
> to serve as a bio filter. I don't clean out the pond (though when wading
> through it to move rocks or plants I will scoop out leaves if they are under
> foot and feel slippery... I don't use meds or potash.

So you let natural selection work its magic... herons, raccoons ?

> I did try dunking my
> hyacinths in Miracle grow when I first started my pond thinking 'what could
> it hurt'... killed them dead. As I said, I'm lazy - really, really lazy.
> And now that I think of it I'm also cheap - really, really cheap. And again
> I don't have anything negative to say about UVs. I simply posted what
> works for me and is inexpensive and easy. Many far more competent people
> here use UV as well as incredibly impressive filters, piping, drain systems,
> etc.
>
> And what is venturi ozone?

Straight ozone injected from a venturi fitting. Great for organic
detritus.

jay
Wed May 26, 2004

>
> > For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> > 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> > an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> > ponds, natural or ornamental.
> >
> > I'll start my campaign for venturi ozone at some point in the future :-)
> >
> > jay
> > Wed May 26, 2004
> >
> >
> >
> > > I'm also extremely lazy,
> > > overworked, underpaid, 5'2", 55 yrs, out of shape, etc... I don't have
> the
> > > time, energy, muscle or patience to do what a lot of ponders here do.
> My
> > > setup is extremely simple, relatively small (about 1000 gals at most)
> and
> > > crystal clear most of the time with very, very, little work involved (I
> > > throw food at the fish, add water when needed, watch the cats make fools
> of
> > > themselves lusting after the fish). My biggest concern is my three
> > > butterfly koi and my albino cat getting too big for the pond and not
> knowing
> > > what to do other than build a bigger pond :)
>
>

Benign Vanilla

May 27th 04, 01:55 PM

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> ponds, natural or ornamental.
<snip>

I'll bite on this one, but first let me say I am not against UV. I think UV
clarifiers have a place in ponds, when desired. Hell, I've thought of
putting one in, but I prefer the more natural method of letting the pond
establish balance. Yes, my pond takes longer to clear then my neighbors with
UV, but mine is clearing because I get a balance of going and the pond
begins "to take care of itself" so to speak. I like the sense of that. I dug
a hole, I threw some water in, and now the critters are coming to roost.

BV.

dkat

May 27th 04, 02:25 PM

Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give beautifully 'non pea
soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from fish/animals/etc.
That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So even if you
do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for a veggie
filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth is
already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).

It is cold and rainy here but the fish think it is feeding time.....

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> > 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> > an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> > ponds, natural or ornamental.
> <snip>
>
> I'll bite on this one, but first let me say I am not against UV. I think
UV
> clarifiers have a place in ponds, when desired. Hell, I've thought of
> putting one in, but I prefer the more natural method of letting the pond
> establish balance. Yes, my pond takes longer to clear then my neighbors
with
> UV, but mine is clearing because I get a balance of going and the pond
> begins "to take care of itself" so to speak. I like the sense of that. I
dug
> a hole, I threw some water in, and now the critters are coming to roost.
>
> BV.
>
>

Benign Vanilla

May 27th 04, 02:50 PM

"dkat" > wrote in message
. net...
> Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give beautifully 'non
pea
> soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from fish/animals/etc.
> That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So even if you
> do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for a
veggie
> filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth is
> already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
<snip>

YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything they
just contribute to the bioload of the pond.

BV.

Go Fig

May 27th 04, 04:08 PM

In article >, Benign Vanilla
> wrote:

> "dkat" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give beautifully 'non
> pea
> > soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from fish/animals/etc.
> > That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So even if you
> > do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for a
> veggie
> > filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth is
> > already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
> <snip>
>
> YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything they
> just contribute to the bioload of the pond.

Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than a
pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally staved of a food
source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond... it is
not, for the most part, consumed by your veggie filters. A sand filter,
however can pull it from the pond.

UV light inhibits the algae from reproducing, that is cutting the
bio-load.

jay
Thu May 27, 2004

>
> BV.
>
>

Go Fig

May 27th 04, 04:22 PM

In article >, Benign Vanilla
> wrote:

> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> > 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> > an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> > ponds, natural or ornamental.
> <snip>
>
> I'll bite on this one, but first let me say I am not against UV. I think UV
> clarifiers have a place in ponds, when desired. Hell, I've thought of
> putting one in, but I prefer the more natural method of letting the pond
> establish balance. Yes, my pond takes longer to clear then my neighbors with
> UV, but mine is clearing because I get a balance of going and the pond
> begins "to take care of itself" so to speak. I like the sense of that. I dug
> a hole, I threw some water in, and now the critters are coming to roost.

I don't know why people assume a UV is exclusive to other filters...
like W.H., why is it that people make this assumption?

My ponds are rarely out of balance.

During the weeks that a pond is green, how does one examine the fish
during perilous spring period... or should we let natural selection
work ?

For me, my first responsibility is to the family pets... the ones with
names like 'boo-boo' and 'blackie'... do you name your algae? ;-)

jay
Thu May 27, 2004

>
> BV.
>
>

Benign Vanilla

May 27th 04, 04:26 PM

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Benign Vanilla
> > wrote:
>
> > "dkat" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give beautifully
'non
> > pea
> > > soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from
fish/animals/etc.
> > > That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So even if
you
> > > do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for a
> > veggie
> > > filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth
is
> > > already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
> > <snip>
> >
> > YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything
they
> > just contribute to the bioload of the pond.
>
> Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than a
> pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally staved of a food
> source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond... it is
> not, for the most part, consumed by your veggie filters. A sand filter,
> however can pull it from the pond.
>
> UV light inhibits the algae from reproducing, that is cutting the
> bio-load.

My point is that UV clarifiers kill algae that pass through them. Dead algae
can become food for hungry live algae. I am not saying UV is bad, don't get
me wrong. I am not saying that. I am just saying that UV clarifiers do not
filter the water, they kill things in the water, and then let the things
move right on through. Filtration to me, IMHO, is the removal of a from b.
UV just kills a and leaves it in B. UV is a supplemental tool, not a
replacement for filtration.

BV.

Go Fig

May 27th 04, 04:50 PM

In article >, Benign Vanilla
> wrote:

> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Benign Vanilla
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > "dkat" > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give beautifully
> 'non
> > > pea
> > > > soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from
> fish/animals/etc.
> > > > That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So even if
> you
> > > > do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for a
> > > veggie
> > > > filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth
> is
> > > > already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything
> they
> > > just contribute to the bioload of the pond.
> >
> > Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than a
> > pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally staved of a food
> > source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond... it is
> > not, for the most part, consumed by your veggie filters. A sand filter,
> > however can pull it from the pond.
> >
> > UV light inhibits the algae from reproducing, that is cutting the
> > bio-load.
>
> My point is that UV clarifiers kill algae that pass through them. Dead algae
> can become food for hungry live algae. I am not saying UV is bad, don't get
> me wrong. I am not saying that. I am just saying that UV clarifiers do not
> filter the water, they kill things in the water, and then let the things
> move right on through. Filtration to me, IMHO, is the removal of a from b.
> UV just kills a and leaves it in B. UV is a supplemental tool, not a
> replacement for filtration.

Sure, but that is exactly what I have always maintained.

Heck, I start my WH in a hothouse in Feb and they are thriving in ponds
by the 3rd week in Apr.. But I always try to incorporate a sand filter
to my ponds. I've just completed a 5K gal one and I'm using 1k lbs of
#16 silica in two filters. The 120 watts of UV that I will use on this
one... is only to lessen the burden on the sand filters (read: me
opening them and that mess)... cause there isn't a suspended algae out
there that can get past 1K of #16 sand.

jay
Thu May 27, 2004

>
> BV.
>
>

Jeff Spicoli

May 27th 04, 05:35 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in
:

>
> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, Benign Vanilla
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > "dkat" > wrote in message
>> > . net...
>> > > Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give
>> > > beautifully 'non pea soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the
>> > > wastes from fish/animals/etc. That is another reason I am so happy
>> > > with my veggie filter. So even if you do go the UV route I still
>> > > think there is more than one reason for a veggie filter (removing
>> > > silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little hyacinth is already
>> > > clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If
>> > anything they just contribute to the bioload of the pond.
>>
>> Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than
>> a pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally staved of a food
>> source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond... it is
>> not, for the most part, consumed by your veggie filters. A sand
>> filter, however can pull it from the pond.
>>
>> UV light inhibits the algae from reproducing, that is cutting the
>> bio-load.
>
> My point is that UV clarifiers kill algae that pass through them. Dead
> algae can become food for hungry live algae. I am not saying UV is bad,
> don't get me wrong. I am not saying that. I am just saying that UV
> clarifiers do not filter the water, they kill things in the water, and
> then let the things move right on through. Filtration to me, IMHO, is
> the removal of a from b. UV just kills a and leaves it in B. UV is a
> supplemental tool, not a replacement for filtration.
>
> BV.
>
>

I have to agree w/ Jay on this one...

--
B. Swanky - Boutique Giftware with Flair!
Specializes in clothing and gifts for infant, baby and toddler. We also
carry upscale handbags and accessories for women.
http://www.bswanky.com

Benign Vanilla

May 27th 04, 06:04 PM

"Jeff Spicoli" > wrote in message
<snip>
> I have to agree w/ Jay on this one...
<snip>

I am not sure he and I are disagreeing.

BV.

Andrew Burgess

May 27th 04, 06:09 PM

>> YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything they
>> just contribute to the bioload of the pond.

>Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than a
>pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally starved of a food
>source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond

Why do you think that? I think it just rots away. What do you have, redwood
or cedar decay-resistant algae? :-)

[email protected]

May 27th 04, 07:16 PM

algae: the good, the bad, the ugly
GOOD: Algae removes wastes from the water. During the day it pumps oxygen into the
water. People who raise fish make "green ponds" so fry have plenty to eat. OTOH,
pea soup is an indicator that the pond is seriously low on biofiltration and water
quality is at risk.
BAD: at night, algae removes oxygen from the water and when water temps are high can
result in fish kills with the biggest fish dying first. Big air stones on a blower
will prevent this.
Dying algae left in the pond will leach wastes back into the pond and be consumed by
bacteria that will use up oxygen. If UV or anything else is going to be used for
killing UV (UV mostly roughs up the surface of algae making it stick to each other,
clumping and it sinks rather than floats)... so a filter that can trap these algae
clumps must be used and CLEANED to get rid of the organics. AT THE SAME TIME
something must be done to correct the underlying problem of excessive nutrients which
will arise when the waste eating algae is removed.
UGLY: you cant see the fish, cant see if they are having other problems.
Keeping leaves and other organics out of the pond is going to cut down on algae
problems. Increasing aeration helps the bacteria break everything down. Cleaning
filters removes organics. Small amounts of very high quality food or even skipping a
day on feeding is going to put less crap (literally) into the pond. Dont overfeed
especially in spring. Using plants in a veggie filter that are up and running early
and can stand some frosts and cold gets biofiltration going earlier.
Ingrid

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Benign Vanilla

May 27th 04, 08:15 PM

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> >> YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If anything
they
> >> just contribute to the bioload of the pond.
>
> >Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than a
> >pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally starved of a food
> >source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond
>
> Why do you think that? I think it just rots away. What do you have,
redwood
> or cedar decay-resistant algae? :-)

Our ponds are a delicate cycle of adding organics, processing organics,
lather, rinse and repeat. Once Algae enter the pond, they become part of the
cycle. Dead algae in the pond, are dead organics in the cycle and add to the
load. Just as we scoop leaves out of the pond we also want to remove other
organics.

Now I am not saying UV contributes to a pond like a forest full of maple
trees. I am simply making the point that UV clarifiers are supplemental to
filters, they are not in themselves filters. They do not remove A from B.
They kill A and leave it in B.

BV.

volts500

May 27th 04, 09:21 PM

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...

> For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> an electric water pump ???

IMHO, a UV light only addresses the symptom, suspended algae, rather than
the cause, a high nutrient load. An electric water pump that provides
sufficient water circulation/gas exchange, as you know, helps increase
Oxygen levels so that the natural processes can function better to reduce
the high nutrient load. To me, clear water (without using UV) is an
indicator that the biofiltration/Oxygen levels are sufficient to handle the
given bio-load. The result being better water quality, which, as we all
know, goes a long way towards preventing disease. A veggie filter, IMO,
helps take the load off the bio-filter. Some people use AZT, which, as you
know, provides the enzymes/bacteria to help speed up the biochemical
processes. IMHO, Oxygen is the key element to make all these things happen.
Low DOC (Dissolved Oxygen Content) and things start breaking down.

joy2wrld

May 27th 04, 10:16 PM

Hi Rec. Ponders:

I think everyone in newsgroup thought it was a joke when I suggested putting
Mrs. Stewart's blueing into their ponds. Like I said, your Grandmothers and
perhaps your Mother's put it in the washing machines to make white clothes
whiter and brighter.

Today, it's used in ponds and birdbaths. I've used in my 1300+pond for 4-5
years. It turns the pond a nice blue color and the great thing about it,
the blue color disappears along with the algae. Try it and let me know what
you think.

By the way, Mrs. Smith's website to learn about this product is
www.mrsstewart.com

Just a suggestion but it does work.

Joy

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> > 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> > an electric water pump ??? UV is a natural occurring action on all
> > ponds, natural or ornamental.
> <snip>
>
> I'll bite on this one, but first let me say I am not against UV. I think
UV
> clarifiers have a place in ponds, when desired. Hell, I've thought of
> putting one in, but I prefer the more natural method of letting the pond
> establish balance. Yes, my pond takes longer to clear then my neighbors
with
> UV, but mine is clearing because I get a balance of going and the pond
> begins "to take care of itself" so to speak. I like the sense of that. I
dug
> a hole, I threw some water in, and now the critters are coming to roost.
>
> BV.
>
>

Go Fig

May 27th 04, 11:59 PM

In article >, volts500
> wrote:

> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > For years here, some posters here have singled out UVs for this
> > 'natural' argument, I don't get it... what could be more unnatural than
> > an electric water pump ???
>
> IMHO, a UV light only addresses the symptom, suspended algae, rather than
> the cause, a high nutrient load. An electric water pump that provides
> sufficient water circulation/gas exchange, as you know, helps increase
> Oxygen levels so that the natural processes can function better to reduce
> the high nutrient load.

That alone will not clear green water however, look at the Gardin de
Luxemburg in Paris... but a friend told me they too are now using UV.

> To me, clear water (without using UV) is an
> indicator that the biofiltration/Oxygen levels are sufficient to handle the
> given bio-load.

Sure, but where exactly are you getting your biofiltration in early
spring, when ponds are, by natures design, experiencing algae blooms ?
While I run UV all season long, its job for the most part, is done by
July when my WH are well into blooming.

I freak if I have 100ppm nitrate even in a very old pond.

> The result being better water quality, which, as we all
> know, goes a long way towards preventing disease. A veggie filter, IMO,
> helps take the load off the bio-filter.

A bio-filter (cultured media) does little for nitrates, that takes
plants and water changes.

> Some people use AZT, which, as you
> know, provides the enzymes/bacteria to help speed up the biochemical
> processes.

That is good money after bad IMHO.

> IMHO, Oxygen is the key element to make all these things happen.
> Low DOC (Dissolved Oxygen Content) and things start breaking down.

You would love ozone then ;-)

jay
Thu May 27, 2004

>
>

dkat

May 28th 04, 01:08 AM

Where to you get the water hyacinths to start in your hot house (feeling
envious of someone having WH in April...)?

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Benign Vanilla
> > wrote:
>
> > "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Benign Vanilla
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "dkat" > wrote in message
> > > > . net...
> > > > > Something I forgot to mention... While the UV may give
beautifully
> > 'non
> > > > pea
> > > > > soup' water it does nothing to eliminate the wastes from
> > fish/animals/etc.
> > > > > That is another reason I am so happy with my veggie filter. So
even if
> > you
> > > > > do go the UV route I still think there is more than one reason for
a
> > > > veggie
> > > > > filter (removing silt and toxins). By the by, my lone little
hyacinth
> > is
> > > > > already clearing things up (put it in this last Sunday).
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > YES!!! Very important point. UV clarifiers are NOT filters. If
anything
> > they
> > > > just contribute to the bioload of the pond.
> > >
> > > Hows that. I can think of few things that deposit more bio-load than
a
> > > pond full of suspended algae. When it is finally staved of a food
> > > source and dies away, it settles to the bottom of your pond... it is
> > > not, for the most part, consumed by your veggie filters. A sand
filter,
> > > however can pull it from the pond.
> > >
> > > UV light inhibits the algae from reproducing, that is cutting the
> > > bio-load.
> >
> > My point is that UV clarifiers kill algae that pass through them. Dead
algae
> > can become food for hungry live algae. I am not saying UV is bad, don't
get
> > me wrong. I am not saying that. I am just saying that UV clarifiers do
not
> > filter the water, they kill things in the water, and then let the things
> > move right on through. Filtration to me, IMHO, is the removal of a from
b.
> > UV just kills a and leaves it in B. UV is a supplemental tool, not a
> > replacement for filtration.
>
> Sure, but that is exactly what I have always maintained.
>
> Heck, I start my WH in a hothouse in Feb and they are thriving in ponds
> by the 3rd week in Apr.. But I always try to incorporate a sand filter
> to my ponds. I've just completed a 5K gal one and I'm using 1k lbs of
> #16 silica in two filters. The 120 watts of UV that I will use on this
> one... is only to lessen the burden on the sand filters (read: me
> opening them and that mess)... cause there isn't a suspended algae out
> there that can get past 1K of #16 sand.
>
> jay
> Thu May 27, 2004
>
>
>
> >
> > BV.
> >
> >

Go Fig

May 28th 04, 01:46 AM

In article >, dkat
> wrote:

> Where to you get the water hyacinths to start in your hot house (feeling
> envious of someone having WH in April...)?

They never really die off where I am, but I collecting them, trim them
way down and then under glass in Feb.. they are ready to go out as soon
as the water stays above 60. This year I saw my first flowers 2 weeks
ago... but they don't really look great until June.

jay
Thu May 27, 2004

Andrew Burgess

May 28th 04, 04:52 PM

>IMHO, Oxygen is the key element to make all these things happen.
>Low DOC (Dissolved Oxygen Content) and things start breaking down.

DOC stands for Dissolved Organic Carbon, the pollutants removed by
foam fractionation. See http://pearl.spatial.maine.edu/glossary/misc/doc.htm

I used to (until 10 seconds ago) think it stood for Dissolved
Organic Compounds until I googled to prevent foot-in-mouth...

A google for "doc dissolved oxygen" reveals that DO stands for Dissolved
Oxygen.

I still think that "Organic Carbon" is redundant

Pedantic nit of the day, brought to you by Andy.

Destroyallx

May 28th 04, 08:59 PM

http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/ - NEW PICS AGAIN - 5/28
thank you all for being so helpful!
i just returned from vacation to see that my pond..in which started to
clear up, got a little worse.
i think im going to rely on time...
hopefully with the new lillies i added, putting the water lettuce back into
the pond instead of the veggie fiter, putting the WH in the stream of the
water fall, maybe this will help things over a period of time.
again, today i took more picutres of my pond for everyone to look at and
maybe shoot over some tips (THANX SO MUCH).
take a look:
http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/

oh and.. it looks like the green color is fading, but the brownish murky
color seems to be more visable....
John

"volts500" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Destroyallx" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > http://www.thehvscene.com/pond/
> >
> > check that out.. i post new pictures of my more than once a week on
here..
> > im making a diary basically of the progression of my pond.
> > its been a few weeks and my water is still green/murky.. it just wont go
> > away.. maybe a veggie filter and everything. i just bough more potted
> > lillies so im waiting for them to come up. and i have a bunch of lillies
> > that bloomed already.
> > what can i do about this water clarity... im guessing its time
>
> Nice pond. IMHO, it's all about oxygen. The bacteria that help reduce
the
> nutrient load need lots of oxygen. Get some serious water
> flow/circulation/gas exchange going on. In your case, a submersible
> pump/fountain in the middle of the pond may work. Otherwise it looks like
> it wouldn't be real difficult to add a (much larger) homemade
bio/mechanical
> filter with spray bar at the top of the waterfall and hide it with more
> rocks/plants. A larger pump/tubing may be in order if you do that,
though.
>
>