Salt and tadpoles (and a long explanation)

[Rodney Pont]

I've Googled but can't find anything specific so does anyone know if
salt at up to 0.3% will harm tadpoles?

We have been fighting something since last year and nothing much seems
to help.

It's a 700US gallon pond and had 25 goldfish, up to about 6inches long,
and a large green tench. During last summer they started to get
semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.
We assumed it was a large dragonfly nymph. We treated the pond with
antibacterial medication and it cleared things up until the next time.

At the beginning of October we emptied the pond to try and find this
nymph. We cleaned the pond totally and sieved the sediment but didn't
find anything. There wasn't a trace of the usual pond life which we
found surprising. We repotted all of the plants after washing them so
we were starting off with what was effectively a new pond.

Unfortunately the summer ended then and with the temperature now lowish
the fish weren't healing well. We put a 3kw immersion heater in to warm
things up, it was inside a water jacket to prevent the copper from the
element getting into the pond water and we bought a copper test kit to
make sure, we didn't have any measurable amount of copper. The fish
healed although some of the bad ones didn't make it.

Once we stopped the heating it came back again. In February we heated
it to 18C again and PP'd the pond and again things cleared up. Once we
stopped heating there were signs of it returning but the weather was
warming up and as the temperature rose they healed.

We have had a cold spell recently and it has come back again so we are
going to try salt now which is why I'm asking about the tadpoles.

Water is crystal clear. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are not
measurable. GH is between 10 and 16, KH 10 and PH 7.2. Filtration is a
Fish Mate 15000 (3000 in the US) pressurised filter with 50l of Kaldnes
media in the bio tank. We had a lot of string algae in the stream but
we always get that in the spring and it clears up once the plants get
going.

Whatever this is it's active when the water temperature drops. The
wounds on the fish are like ulcers and sometimes they get fungus on the
wounds, but that's only to be expected. All fresh water is treated with
Interpet Fresh Start.

We are in North Yorkshire, UK and any suggestions would be very welcome
at this stage. We've lost about half the goldfish now but don't want to
replace them until this has been cleared up. I doubt if we will get any
replacements this year since things are warming up and we need to go
through another winter to be certain it's really gone.


Regards - Rodney Pont email: ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

--
posted from HTMl frontend

[Benign Vanilla]

"Rodney Pont" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I've Googled but can't find anything specific so does anyone know if
> salt at up to 0.3% will harm tadpoles?
>
> We have been fighting something since last year and nothing much seems
> to help.
>
> It's a 700US gallon pond and had 25 goldfish, up to about 6inches long,
> and a large green tench. During last summer they started to get
> semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.
<snip>

Could this be damage from a predator?

BV.

[Ka30P]

Rodney wrote
>>During last summer they started to get
semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.<<

This is not the kind of damage a dragonfly nymph would do. And it would not
attack large fish.
Dragonfly nymphs prey on fish fry and very small fish. They grab them with
their jaw parts (think the second set of teeth in Alien) and then they tear
their prey apart and eat it. There would never be a circular wound.




kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

[[email protected]]

roundish wounds sound like something is sucking on their slime coat. got an algae
eater in that pond?
net the pond and keep everything out of there. Ingrid


"Rodney Pont" > wrote:
>It's a 700US gallon pond and had 25 goldfish, up to about 6inches long,
>and a large green tench. During last summer they started to get
>semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

since you are in teh UK I called Jo Ann and she said:
"get some antibiotic like kanacin or oxolinic acid. he needs to do a food thing
treatment and do the 3 times with PP treatments he has columnaris flexibacter and it
will just keep coming back cause it went systemic."
PP here http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/disease.htm
in the treatment section. Ingrid

"Rodney Pont" > wrote:

>I've Googled but can't find anything specific so does anyone know if
>salt at up to 0.3% will harm tadpoles?
>
>We have been fighting something since last year and nothing much seems
>to help.
>
>It's a 700US gallon pond and had 25 goldfish, up to about 6inches long,
>and a large green tench. During last summer they started to get
>semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.
>We assumed it was a large dragonfly nymph. We treated the pond with
>antibacterial medication and it cleared things up until the next time.
>
>At the beginning of October we emptied the pond to try and find this
>nymph. We cleaned the pond totally and sieved the sediment but didn't
>find anything. There wasn't a trace of the usual pond life which we
>found surprising. We repotted all of the plants after washing them so
>we were starting off with what was effectively a new pond.
>
>Unfortunately the summer ended then and with the temperature now lowish
>the fish weren't healing well. We put a 3kw immersion heater in to warm
>things up, it was inside a water jacket to prevent the copper from the
>element getting into the pond water and we bought a copper test kit to
>make sure, we didn't have any measurable amount of copper. The fish
>healed although some of the bad ones didn't make it.
>
>Once we stopped the heating it came back again. In February we heated
>it to 18C again and PP'd the pond and again things cleared up. Once we
>stopped heating there were signs of it returning but the weather was
>warming up and as the temperature rose they healed.
>
>We have had a cold spell recently and it has come back again so we are
>going to try salt now which is why I'm asking about the tadpoles.
>
>Water is crystal clear. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are not
>measurable. GH is between 10 and 16, KH 10 and PH 7.2. Filtration is a
>Fish Mate 15000 (3000 in the US) pressurised filter with 50l of Kaldnes
>media in the bio tank. We had a lot of string algae in the stream but
>we always get that in the spring and it clears up once the plants get
>going.
>
>Whatever this is it's active when the water temperature drops. The
>wounds on the fish are like ulcers and sometimes they get fungus on the
>wounds, but that's only to be expected. All fresh water is treated with
>Interpet Fresh Start.
>
>We are in North Yorkshire, UK and any suggestions would be very welcome
>at this stage. We've lost about half the goldfish now but don't want to
>replace them until this has been cleared up. I doubt if we will get any
>replacements this year since things are warming up and we need to go
>through another winter to be certain it's really gone.
>
>
>Regards - Rodney Pont email: ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Rodney Pont]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:32:57 GMT, wrote:

>since you are in teh UK I called Jo Ann and she said:
>"get some antibiotic like kanacin or oxolinic acid. he needs to do a food thing
>treatment and do the 3 times with PP treatments he has columnaris flexibacter and it
>will just keep coming back cause it went systemic."
>PP here http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/disease.htm
>in the treatment section. Ingrid

Thanks for that. This,
http://www.fish-helpline.co.uk/health/columnaris.html says it likes
cool water conditions and ours certainly does. We'll have a word with
the vet about antibiotics.

Thanks again.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Rodney Pont]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:39:24 GMT, wrote:

>roundish wounds sound like something is sucking on their slime coat. got an algae
>eater in that pond?
>net the pond and keep everything out of there. Ingrid

No, just goldfish and a green tench. The wounds weren't completely
round, just like the circumference of a circle. If the circle had been
completed it would have been about an inch and a half in diameter but
the arc was only about half an inch long.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Rodney Pont]

On 27 May 2004 14:44:11 GMT, Ka30P wrote:

>Rodney wrote
>>>During last summer they started to get
>semicircular wounds on their bodies and one had it's face eaten away.<<
>
>This is not the kind of damage a dragonfly nymph would do. And it would not
>attack large fish.
>Dragonfly nymphs prey on fish fry and very small fish. They grab them with
>their jaw parts (think the second set of teeth in Alien) and then they tear
>their prey apart and eat it. There would never be a circular wound.

I thought it was only the lower jaw of the nymph that extended so I
assumed it grabbed the fish and ate as much as it could reach while it
hung on. When we emptied the pond there was no waterlife and usually it
teems with things so I assumed it was starving and tried for a fish. We
do have Emperor dragonflies and I assume that a nymph of one of those
is quite big. The fish that had it's face eaten away was the smallest
one we had at the time, about 5 inches long. We haven't had anything
attacked since we cleaned the pond out last year but just couldn't
clear the bacterial infection. We'll have a word with the vet about
antibiotics.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

columnaris typically attacks the mouth, white threads around the mouth is nearly
diagnostic. in fact, it is often called "mouth rot". Ingrid

"Rodney Pont" > wrote:
The fish that had it's face eaten away was the smallest
>one we had at the time, about 5 inches long. We haven't had anything
>attacked since we cleaned the pond out last year but just couldn't
>clear the bacterial infection. We'll have a word with the vet about
>antibiotics.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> columnaris typically attacks the mouth, white threads around the mouth is
nearly
> diagnostic. in fact, it is often called "mouth rot". Ingrid

Not to nit pick...well OK exactly to nit pick...the OP never mentioned
anything about threads or mouth damage, aside fromt the one fish that had
it's "face eaten off". Would it not make more sense to take a dead fish to
the vet and get it tested before you begin dosing for a disease that you are
not sure of?

BV.

[Rodney Pont]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 09:16:38 -0400, Benign Vanilla wrote:

>> columnaris typically attacks the mouth, white threads around the mouth is
>nearly
>> diagnostic. in fact, it is often called "mouth rot". Ingrid
>
>Not to nit pick...well OK exactly to nit pick...the OP never mentioned
>anything about threads or mouth damage, aside fromt the one fish that had
>it's "face eaten off". Would it not make more sense to take a dead fish to
>the vet and get it tested before you begin dosing for a disease that you are
>not sure of?

I'd rather treat it and not loose another fish than wait. The vet isn't
really well up on fish and is looking into what antibiotics they can
recommend. We are really restricted on what we can use here. The fact
that it gets worse when the water temperature falls makes me inclined
to think that it is columnaris and that it's now internal due to the
faeces being white.

The fish with it's face eaten away was fine the night before but
floating dead the next morning. Being in the UK we don't have a lot of
predators, apart from the herons and the pond is netted against them.

I've been posting questions about this on and off since November but
didn't realise my news server was set to keep posts for this group
local so I saw my post but it wasn't sent to the world. I only realised
when a web based news reader I'm testing didn't show the post, so I
have been trying to get help but just thought no one had any
suggestions.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[dkat]

Do you have snakes, weasels, rats, turtles? If its face was eaten off over
night, you have predators or we have one REALLY nasty bacteria out there.

--
***************************************
Listen to Air America Radio
http://www.airamericaradio.com
***************************************
"Rodney Pont" > wrote in message
news:atcfzvasbuvgflfgrzfygqhx.hygfvf0.pminews@ihs1 ...
> On Fri, 28 May 2004 09:16:38 -0400, Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> >> columnaris typically attacks the mouth, white threads around the mouth
is
> >nearly
> >> diagnostic. in fact, it is often called "mouth rot". Ingrid
> >
> >Not to nit pick...well OK exactly to nit pick...the OP never mentioned
> >anything about threads or mouth damage, aside fromt the one fish that had
> >it's "face eaten off". Would it not make more sense to take a dead fish
to
> >the vet and get it tested before you begin dosing for a disease that you
are
> >not sure of?
>
> I'd rather treat it and not loose another fish than wait. The vet isn't
> really well up on fish and is looking into what antibiotics they can
> recommend. We are really restricted on what we can use here. The fact
> that it gets worse when the water temperature falls makes me inclined
> to think that it is columnaris and that it's now internal due to the
> faeces being white.
>
> The fish with it's face eaten away was fine the night before but
> floating dead the next morning. Being in the UK we don't have a lot of
> predators, apart from the herons and the pond is netted against them.
>
> I've been posting questions about this on and off since November but
> didn't realise my news server was set to keep posts for this group
> local so I saw my post but it wasn't sent to the world. I only realised
> when a web based news reader I'm testing didn't show the post, so I
> have been trying to get help but just thought no one had any
> suggestions.
>
> --
> Regards - Rodney Pont
> The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
> please send any emails to the address below
> e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk
>
>

[Rodney Pont]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:41:42 GMT, dkat wrote:

>Do you have snakes, weasels, rats, turtles? If its face was eaten off over
>night, you have predators or we have one REALLY nasty bacteria out there.

We are in the vale of York and snakes are unknown here, as far as I'm
aware, but it would have taken the complete fish. It was eaten in the
water in a netted pond so stoats, weasels and rats are unlikely. If a
turtle had been released we would have seen it in the pond.

My favourite is still a starving Emperor dragonfly nymph. I just can't
think of anything else that would give that type of bite. It was lots
of small ones, like a caterpillar does to a leaf.

Whatever it was isn't around now, we've just got to get rid of the
bacteria that's taken hold.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[dkat]

Ever read All Creatures Great and Small (actually there were several and
they all were based on All Creatures... anyway)? One part of the writing
that I liked so much was the mystery involved and the solving of it. This
feels like that and I really want to find the cause for the pleasures sake.
I had not realized the fish was as small as I later read - I'm guessing the
head was no more than an inch long.... so we are talking something that took
what.. a 1/2 inch of fish? The thing is it would have to be strong enough
to be able to get away with it. I mean if you were this fish would you put
up with something chewing on you without putting up a fight of some sort...
And you are sure it was happy and healthy the evening before? That it
hadn't died and something took advantage of the situation..

--
***************************************
Listen to Air America Radio
http://www.airamericaradio.com
***************************************
"Rodney Pont" > wrote in message
news:atcfzvasbuvgflfgrzfygqhx.hygx2c0.pminews@ihs1 ...
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:41:42 GMT, dkat wrote:
>
> >Do you have snakes, weasels, rats, turtles? If its face was eaten off
over
> >night, you have predators or we have one REALLY nasty bacteria out there.
>
> We are in the vale of York and snakes are unknown here, as far as I'm
> aware, but it would have taken the complete fish. It was eaten in the
> water in a netted pond so stoats, weasels and rats are unlikely. If a
> turtle had been released we would have seen it in the pond.
>
> My favourite is still a starving Emperor dragonfly nymph. I just can't
> think of anything else that would give that type of bite. It was lots
> of small ones, like a caterpillar does to a leaf.
>
> Whatever it was isn't around now, we've just got to get rid of the
> bacteria that's taken hold.
>
> --
> Regards - Rodney Pont
> The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
> please send any emails to the address below
> e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Thanks for that. This,
>http://www.fish-helpline.co.uk/health/columnaris.html says it likes
>cool water conditions and ours certainly does. We'll have a word with
>the vet about antibiotics.

MediKoi is an antibotic food, if your fish are eating. TriCide Neo is a dip
that will take care of the problem if they're not.

You mentioned sediment in one post and that is where many bad bacterias
like to hang out, so I hope you removed as much as possible. A bad-bacteria
controller that we use here is called KoiZyme. See if you can find these
products in your area or a UK based internet pond shop.

Please let us know what happens. ~ jan


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[Rodney Pont]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 00:56:18 GMT, dkat wrote:

>Ever read All Creatures Great and Small (actually there were several and
>they all were based on All Creatures... anyway)? One part of the writing
>that I liked so much was the mystery involved and the solving of it. This
>feels like that and I really want to find the cause for the pleasures sake.
>I had not realized the fish was as small as I later read - I'm guessing the
>head was no more than an inch long.... so we are talking something that took
>what.. a 1/2 inch of fish? The thing is it would have to be strong enough
>to be able to get away with it. I mean if you were this fish would you put
>up with something chewing on you without putting up a fight of some sort...
>And you are sure it was happy and healthy the evening before? That it
>hadn't died and something took advantage of the situation..

Yes I've read several of the books and watched the TV series. The vet
who wrote the books had a practice in Thirsk which isn't very far north
of me.

This fish was one of the smallest at the time, just over 4 inches if I
remember correctly. About 3/4 of an inch (length) of the head was eaten
from one side but not quite half way through. It was a comet, one of my
favourite fishes so it was one I kept an eye on more than the others.
It was fine the night before. I suppose it depends on how much damage
was done with the first bite, whatever had been chewing had plenty of
time to make several bites.

The other fish that were bitten had wounds in the lower body that
looked like something had eaten a semicircle of what it could reach
while it could hang on.

The largest fish in the pond is a fully grown green tench, maybe it ate
the perpetrator in the end.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Rodney Pont]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 03:13:40 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>MediKoi is an antibotic food, if your fish are eating. TriCide Neo is a dip
>that will take care of the problem if they're not.

I came across MediKoi while searching and it sounds as though it would
be ideal but it's not available for sale in the UK. The only antibiotic
that is legal for hobbyists is oxolinic acid but it's been abused so
much that it's no longer very effective and we haven't been able to
find anyone who supplies it.

Our vet has tried to get us some nitrofurazone/nitrofural because it is
absorbed from the water but her suppliers don't carry it. She has
suggested somewhere to try but they don't do web sales so it will have
to wait until after the holiday weekend.

>You mentioned sediment in one post and that is where many bad bacterias
>like to hang out, so I hope you removed as much as possible. A bad-bacteria
>controller that we use here is called KoiZyme. See if you can find these
>products in your area or a UK based internet pond shop.

Our Fish Mate pressurised filter just doesn't seem to be removing what
it should, even tadpoles manage to get through it. It's rated at 2,500
to 7000 litres/hour and we are pushing 3,000 through it so it should be
working. There is just a thin layer of sediment that seems impossible
to remove. We are trying a different make of bacteria this year,
'Miracle Plus' from bio-claire but with water temperatures of around
16C it's bit too cold for it to be very effective yet. We have 0.3%
salt in at the moment so that's just about killed off the bacteria for
now. I will see if I can find KoiZyme for the future.

>Please let us know what happens. ~ jan

I will, now that my posts are going out. Thanks for your help.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

Oxolinic acid is extremely useful by soaking food in it. It cannot be used in teh
water for more than 3 days or it goes toxic. it is absorbed across the skin of GF,
probably also koi. but in food it can be fed for long periods of time.
I am surprised to hear it isnt effective.
your vet should be able to order romet B made for catfish growers. since it is
specifically for fish it should be allowed. I feed romet B in fall right before fish
"go dormant". The antibiotic saturates their tissues giving them some protection
going into spring.
But most important is setting up the pond so it minimizes disease.
Ingrid

"Rodney Pont" > wrote:
The only antibiotic
>that is legal for hobbyists is oxolinic acid but it's been abused so
>much that it's no longer very effective and we haven't been able to
>find anyone who supplies it.
>
>Our vet has tried to get us some nitrofurazone/nitrofural because it is
>absorbed from the water but her suppliers don't carry it. She has
>suggested somewhere to try but they don't do web sales so it will have
>to wait until after the holiday weekend.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Rodney Pont]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 03:13:40 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>Please let us know what happens. ~ jan

The vet rang on Friday. She has found a fish expert on the other side
of the country and has supplied an antibiotic, Baytril (enrofloxacin I
think) for the pond.

The fish have gone off their food a little, but are still eating
something, they are no longer huddled together in a corner but do
patrol the pond slowly so something is happening.

Will pp oxidise the antibiotic when we are done with it so that we can
dispose of the water safely?

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

antibiotics are organic and get broken down. baytril is most effective injected into
the fish. altho you can make antibiotic food from it. soak the food in the
antibiotic and then coat with fish or shrimp oil of some kind. use floating food for
this. Ingrid

"Rodney Pont" > wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 03:13:40 GMT, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>
>>Please let us know what happens. ~ jan
>
>The vet rang on Friday. She has found a fish expert on the other side
>of the country and has supplied an antibiotic, Baytril (enrofloxacin I
>think) for the pond.
>
>The fish have gone off their food a little, but are still eating
>something, they are no longer huddled together in a corner but do
>patrol the pond slowly so something is happening.
>
>Will pp oxidise the antibiotic when we are done with it so that we can
>dispose of the water safely?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.