new Harry Potter film [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Tom L. La Bron

June 5th 04, 04:22 AM

Gene Shalot, ABC movie critique thought it was the best
of the HP series. He did mention that some might be
bothered by some of the changes, but several of the
original actors have died, and so needed replacements.
He also mentioned that it is hard to reproduce a
500 plus page book into a movie that is only two hours
long. It is the screenwriters decision as to what to
put in from the book and want to leave out. Of course,
computer graphics, which were missing in the first
movie, are much more apparent in the realism of this
production, one the best being the flying horse in both
movies, it is much more believable in the present movie.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------------

wrote:

> It wasnt as good as the first. like MIB 2 wasnt as good as the original. but at
> least they didnt put in a Kafkaeske overtones and make it an "edgier" movie.
> a lot of the critics use terminology when describing this HP that is really a cover
> for all that it lacks.
> England is lush and green and foggy and that is why it is a good setting for magical,
> for Stonehenge, for the Arthurian tales. Cuaron created this overly bright, rocky
> steep sloped setting and light it so that every pimple shows. on everything.
> everything looks old and old in a worn out and unloved way.
> double yeck. Ingrid
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>
>>What about Shrek 2?
>>
>>BV.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

dkat

June 5th 04, 05:23 PM

Wow, really sorry to hear that. I had read that they had stripped the movie
of all but the bones of the book (which explains how the longer book could
be a shorter movie).... The books however do get darker as they go
along.... still this should not take away from the magic.... Changing
directors ruined Aliens III in my book. I hope they get their act back
together for the following ones.

> wrote in message
...
> I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
"realistic" sets.
> the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
stripped out all
> the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

dkat

June 5th 04, 05:39 PM

Oddly what bothered me most about the movie was that they took out the
crucial bit of how the King would be a healer and of his healing Faramir,
Eowyn and Merry. It was also disappointing that they could not make Pippen
and Merry heads taller than they had been :) All and all I thought they did
not harm the book or the feel of it and I enjoyed them quite a bit (will
have a difficult time being patient for the extended Return of the King)..

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> ;-) we're LOTR geeks here, too. All have read the series, or had it read
to
> them (dyslexic youngest). We thought the movies fared pretty well. Eldest
son
> wasn't that happy with some of the changes made to Faramir.
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

[email protected]

June 5th 04, 06:42 PM

I dont know where they get the idea of "darker".... the later books have more serious
parts as the kids grow older. People get really hurt, people die. English childrens
books are not as "fluffy". The lemony snicket (sp?) series is supposed to show kids
with difficulty (which I will read if I can get em back from my step sister!).
Rowling is a very VERY tight writer. on her website she even talks about characters
she has dumped cause while interesting they didnt forward the story properly. so
stripping stuff out of her books for the movies is very hard indeed.
they have dumped this director for one more like chris columbus from the first two,
but then I hear they are doing GoF in a single movie, not two which is going to be
very hard indeed seeing how everything is so tight already and the book is 600? pages
long.
Rowling balances the good with the bad. this last movie stripped out all the good
and focused on the bad. Like the quiddich game where he falls when the dementors get
in (they left this in). But after he learns the patronus charm the next quiddich game
Malfoy et all show up looking like dementors but HP zaps em good and wins the game to
great celebration (they left this out).

some of these directors are morons. I dont think many of them had a nice childhood so
they are going to ruin every one elses .... it isnt like we dont have enough of
horror in reality without trying to poison and destroy the fantasy world too.
Ingrid

"dkat" > wrote:
>Wow, really sorry to hear that. I had read that they had stripped the movie
>of all but the bones of the book (which explains how the longer book could
>be a shorter movie).... The books however do get darker as they go
>along.... still this should not take away from the magic....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Tom L. La Bron

June 5th 04, 09:30 PM

dkat,

That bothered me also about LOTR,ROTK, the healing
power of the real king, because that was almost pivotal
in the book. The height difference in the book of the
two hobbits with Treebeard was significant, but the
movie lacked that visual affect.

It was still a good movie though and I was glad that
someone took the challenge on to doing right by the
book in many cases. In the second movie they also left
out where the Ents arrived outside of the Helms Depth
and the next morning there were no orac bodies on the
battle field only trees that later disappeared. I
understand that that scene is in the extended version
of the Two Towers.

Tom L.L.

dkat wrote:

> Oddly what bothered me most about the movie was that they took out the
> crucial bit of how the King would be a healer and of his healing Faramir,
> Eowyn and Merry. It was also disappointing that they could not make Pippen
> and Merry heads taller than they had been :) All and all I thought they did
> not harm the book or the feel of it and I enjoyed them quite a bit (will
> have a difficult time being patient for the extended Return of the King)..
>
>
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>;-) we're LOTR geeks here, too. All have read the series, or had it read
>
> to
>
>>them (dyslexic youngest). We thought the movies fared pretty well. Eldest
>
> son
>
>>wasn't that happy with some of the changes made to Faramir.
>>
>>
>>kathy :-)
>><A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>
>
>
>

Evil Noodle

June 5th 04, 10:38 PM

> wrote in message
...
> I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
> "realistic" sets.
> the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
stripped
> out all the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid

Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
deviant filth it is.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html

GrannyGrump

June 6th 04, 01:50 AM

>Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
>deviant filth it is.

Go away Troll.

axeman chris

June 6th 04, 02:56 AM

"Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
news:5Yrwc.144$SC4.67@newsfe5-win...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
> > "realistic" sets.
> > the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
> stripped
> > out all the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
>
> Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> deviant filth it is.
>
> http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html
>

Perhaps a troll, but the web site is hilarious!

Jacqui
>
>

dkat

June 7th 04, 02:31 AM

I have used the term 'darker' because that is the word that others use
(English is not my first language despite the fact that the U.S. of A is
where I was born and raised - maybe I should say because this is where I was
born and raised...). It is odd that I thoroughly enjoy the Harry Potter
books as an adult but still see them as "children's" books and for that
reason find myself shocked when a "good" character actually dies or when it
seems that evil wins out or gets stronger. I suppose that this is what I
mean by getting darker... As the series develops the "dark side" seems to
gain more and more power and even though Harry continues to conquer his
problems, there is the feeling that he has won a small battle only to
develop the strength to face the bigger one facing him in the near future.
Each ending seems to have more of a sense of suspense and greater danger
ahead. I suppose that is just life but it is not what I think of as the
ending of "children's" books. It is certainly appropriate though and very
well done (except Damn it where are the 6th and 7th book!!!! How much
suspense are we expected to deal with! :) ). Anyway, I will have to see
the 3rd movie and enjoy it for the characters themselves - filling in the
missing and necessary parts in my minds view. I may though now not go to
the theatre and just wait for the DVD to come out to voice my opinion of
them cutting things to the bone with my $$$. I'll see what my son says
tonight (he and I have the same read on things).

IMO It really is insane of them not to make 2 movies out of the larger
books. Once they have things set up and rolling, the return on the money
has to be far greater doing 2 movies rather than one. If nothing else, they
should do an extended version they can sell on the DVD as they did for LOTR.
Sighhh - I hope this doesn't turn into them doing things on the cheap
because they think they have a captive audience.

> wrote in message
...
> I dont know where they get the idea of "darker".... the later books have
more serious
> parts as the kids grow older. People get really hurt, people die.
English childrens
> books are not as "fluffy". The lemony snicket (sp?) series is supposed to
show kids
> with difficulty (which I will read if I can get em back from my step
sister!).
> Rowling is a very VERY tight writer. on her website she even talks about
characters
> she has dumped cause while interesting they didnt forward the story
properly. so
> stripping stuff out of her books for the movies is very hard indeed.
> they have dumped this director for one more like chris columbus from the
first two,
> but then I hear they are doing GoF in a single movie, not two which is
going to be
> very hard indeed seeing how everything is so tight already and the book is
600? pages
> long.
> Rowling balances the good with the bad. this last movie stripped out all
the good
> and focused on the bad. Like the quiddich game where he falls when the
dementors get
> in (they left this in). But after he learns the patronus charm the next
quiddich game
> Malfoy et all show up looking like dementors but HP zaps em good and wins
the game to
> great celebration (they left this out).
>
> some of these directors are morons. I dont think many of them had a nice
childhood so
> they are going to ruin every one elses .... it isnt like we dont have
enough of
> horror in reality without trying to poison and destroy the fantasy world
too.
> Ingrid
>
> "dkat" > wrote:
> >Wow, really sorry to hear that. I had read that they had stripped the
movie
> >of all but the bones of the book (which explains how the longer book
could
> >be a shorter movie).... The books however do get darker as they go
> >along.... still this should not take away from the magic....
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

dkat

June 7th 04, 03:10 AM

Watch the extended versions. They are without question worth the time
(unfortunately the extended of ROTK cannot possibly have the destruction and
rebuilding of the Shire).

I agree with you on all points.

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> dkat,
>
> That bothered me also about LOTR,ROTK, the healing
> power of the real king, because that was almost pivotal
> in the book. The height difference in the book of the
> two hobbits with Treebeard was significant, but the
> movie lacked that visual affect.
>
> It was still a good movie though and I was glad that
> someone took the challenge on to doing right by the
> book in many cases. In the second movie they also left
> out where the Ents arrived outside of the Helms Depth
> and the next morning there were no orac bodies on the
> battle field only trees that later disappeared. I
> understand that that scene is in the extended version
> of the Two Towers.
>
> Tom L.L.
>
>
> dkat wrote:
>
> > Oddly what bothered me most about the movie was that they took out the
> > crucial bit of how the King would be a healer and of his healing
Faramir,
> > Eowyn and Merry. It was also disappointing that they could not make
Pippen
> > and Merry heads taller than they had been :) All and all I thought they
did
> > not harm the book or the feel of it and I enjoyed them quite a bit (will
> > have a difficult time being patient for the extended Return of the
King)..
> >
> >
> >
> > "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>;-) we're LOTR geeks here, too. All have read the series, or had it
read
> >
> > to
> >
> >>them (dyslexic youngest). We thought the movies fared pretty well.
Eldest
> >
> > son
> >
> >>wasn't that happy with some of the changes made to Faramir.
> >>
> >>
> >>kathy :-)
> >><A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>
> >
> >
> >

dkat

June 7th 04, 03:15 AM

Son just came home and is furious with what they did to Harry Potter III.
He said his friends who haven't read the book or that have not done so in
quite awhile thought it was good but he found he was spending the whole time
yelling at the movie in his head for getting it so wrong (I mean how could
they have not put Crookshank in it other than as a walk on....). I'll not
go the theatre for this one.

"dkat" > wrote in message
...
> I have used the term 'darker' because that is the word that others use
> (English is not my first language despite the fact that the U.S. of A is
> where I was born and raised - maybe I should say because this is where I
was
> born and raised...). It is odd that I thoroughly enjoy the Harry Potter
> books as an adult but still see them as "children's" books and for that
> reason find myself shocked when a "good" character actually dies or when
it
> seems that evil wins out or gets stronger. I suppose that this is what I
> mean by getting darker... As the series develops the "dark side" seems to
> gain more and more power and even though Harry continues to conquer his
> problems, there is the feeling that he has won a small battle only to
> develop the strength to face the bigger one facing him in the near future.
> Each ending seems to have more of a sense of suspense and greater danger
> ahead. I suppose that is just life but it is not what I think of as the
> ending of "children's" books. It is certainly appropriate though and
very
> well done (except Damn it where are the 6th and 7th book!!!! How much
> suspense are we expected to deal with! :) ). Anyway, I will have to see
> the 3rd movie and enjoy it for the characters themselves - filling in the
> missing and necessary parts in my minds view. I may though now not go to
> the theatre and just wait for the DVD to come out to voice my opinion of
> them cutting things to the bone with my $$$. I'll see what my son says
> tonight (he and I have the same read on things).
>
> IMO It really is insane of them not to make 2 movies out of the larger
> books. Once they have things set up and rolling, the return on the money
> has to be far greater doing 2 movies rather than one. If nothing else,
they
> should do an extended version they can sell on the DVD as they did for
LOTR.
> Sighhh - I hope this doesn't turn into them doing things on the cheap
> because they think they have a captive audience.
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > I dont know where they get the idea of "darker".... the later books have
> more serious
> > parts as the kids grow older. People get really hurt, people die.
> English childrens
> > books are not as "fluffy". The lemony snicket (sp?) series is supposed
to
> show kids
> > with difficulty (which I will read if I can get em back from my step
> sister!).
> > Rowling is a very VERY tight writer. on her website she even talks
about
> characters
> > she has dumped cause while interesting they didnt forward the story
> properly. so
> > stripping stuff out of her books for the movies is very hard indeed.
> > they have dumped this director for one more like chris columbus from the
> first two,
> > but then I hear they are doing GoF in a single movie, not two which is
> going to be
> > very hard indeed seeing how everything is so tight already and the book
is
> 600? pages
> > long.
> > Rowling balances the good with the bad. this last movie stripped out
all
> the good
> > and focused on the bad. Like the quiddich game where he falls when the
> dementors get
> > in (they left this in). But after he learns the patronus charm the next
> quiddich game
> > Malfoy et all show up looking like dementors but HP zaps em good and
wins
> the game to
> > great celebration (they left this out).
> >
> > some of these directors are morons. I dont think many of them had a nice
> childhood so
> > they are going to ruin every one elses .... it isnt like we dont have
> enough of
> > horror in reality without trying to poison and destroy the fantasy world
> too.
> > Ingrid
> >
> > "dkat" > wrote:
> > >Wow, really sorry to hear that. I had read that they had stripped the
> movie
> > >of all but the bones of the book (which explains how the longer book
> could
> > >be a shorter movie).... The books however do get darker as they go
> > >along.... still this should not take away from the magic....
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> > http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> > www.drsolo.com
> > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> > endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>

Anne Lurie

June 7th 04, 04:24 AM

I've not yet seen the latest HP movie, but this may be in keeping with the
author's feeling that things were going to be "darker" in the series
(although I thought she meant in HP 4, with the first death of a character).

I do confess, though, that I was dismayed to read somewhere that the author
"does not know if Harry will live to be an adult."

As for the other movies (further down in this thread), hubby & I were
charmed by Shrek on DVD, and exclaimed that it was so great to see a movie
that we could enjoy with our granddaughter! Neither of us ever having read
LOTR, we managed only about 10 minutes of the first (DVD) movie before we
gave up.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

> wrote in message
...
> I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
"realistic" sets.
> the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
stripped out all
> the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 02:04 PM

"dkat" > wrote in message
t...
> Oddly what bothered me most about the movie was that they took out the
> crucial bit of how the King would be a healer and of his healing Faramir,
> Eowyn and Merry. It was also disappointing that they could not make
Pippen
> and Merry heads taller than they had been :) All and all I thought they
did
> not harm the book or the feel of it and I enjoyed them quite a bit (will
> have a difficult time being patient for the extended Return of the King)..
<snip>

Don't even get me started...Two words...raising the shire.

BV.

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 02:07 PM

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> dkat,
>
> That bothered me also about LOTR,ROTK, the healing
> power of the real king, because that was almost pivotal
> in the book. The height difference in the book of the
> two hobbits with Treebeard was significant, but the
> movie lacked that visual affect.
>
> It was still a good movie though and I was glad that
> someone took the challenge on to doing right by the
> book in many cases. In the second movie they also left
> out where the Ents arrived outside of the Helms Depth
> and the next morning there were no orac bodies on the
> battle field only trees that later disappeared. I
> understand that that scene is in the extended version
> of the Two Towers.
<snip>

The ents were not explained well at all in the movie, IMHO. The fact that
they said no, and then suddenly changed their minds, was not very entish.
The fact that the orcs did not meet them on their way from Helms deep is
also awful. Let us not forget the hogwash of Faramir taking Frodo hostage,
and let us not forget that "...not even if it laid on the side of the road
would I pick it up.." And Aragorn's first proclomation of being the heir to
the throan when he was on th riddermark....AGGHAHHHHH...Ya see...I told ya
not to get me started...

BV.

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 02:13 PM

"axeman chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
> news:5Yrwc.144$SC4.67@newsfe5-win...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
> > > "realistic" sets.
> > > the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
> > stripped
> > > out all the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
> >
> > Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> > deviant filth it is.
> >
> > http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html
> >
>
> Perhaps a troll, but the web site is hilarious!

I almost thought it was real.

BV.

dkat

June 7th 04, 07:35 PM

Take a deep breath - several times... Now try to imagine what they COULD
have done to the book. They did not NEARLY go as Hollywood as they might
have. Enjoy it as "LOTR for Dummies" and for the beautiful visual quality
of the film. Then go back and enjoy the books AGAIN (Baby dinosaurs again).
My last reading I actually chanted the verse out loud which is something I
would not have done had I not seen the movie. It is very pleasant to do so
and completely changes to feel of the verse. I loved it.

Don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing.... it is just you can take the
pleasure from what is good or you can ruin it for yourself by expecting them
to do the impossible. I'm saying out loud what I say to myself. My son and
I declared the last Harry Potter film to be "HP for Dummies" and that is how
I will watch it as. I like the characters that now exist from the film too
much to abandon them due to a misguided director.

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > dkat,
> >
> > That bothered me also about LOTR,ROTK, the healing
> > power of the real king, because that was almost pivotal
> > in the book. The height difference in the book of the
> > two hobbits with Treebeard was significant, but the
> > movie lacked that visual affect.
> >
> > It was still a good movie though and I was glad that
> > someone took the challenge on to doing right by the
> > book in many cases. In the second movie they also left
> > out where the Ents arrived outside of the Helms Depth
> > and the next morning there were no orac bodies on the
> > battle field only trees that later disappeared. I
> > understand that that scene is in the extended version
> > of the Two Towers.
> <snip>
>
> The ents were not explained well at all in the movie, IMHO. The fact that
> they said no, and then suddenly changed their minds, was not very entish.
> The fact that the orcs did not meet them on their way from Helms deep is
> also awful. Let us not forget the hogwash of Faramir taking Frodo hostage,
> and let us not forget that "...not even if it laid on the side of the road
> would I pick it up.." And Aragorn's first proclomation of being the heir
to
> the throan when he was on th riddermark....AGGHAHHHHH...Ya see...I told ya
> not to get me started...
>
> BV.
>
>

Evil Noodle

June 7th 04, 07:42 PM

"GrannyGrump" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> >deviant filth it is.
>
> Go away Troll.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise fellow pond keepers had so little sense of
humour, you did realise the site was a parody didn't you?

Evil Noodle

June 7th 04, 07:47 PM

Ka30P

June 7th 04, 07:53 PM

Does anyone remember the animated LOTR?
I think it came out in the late 70s or early 80s.
It was terribly awful! They showed it on TV the other night and my kids hooted
and hollered at it. They felt so bad that we actually had to live through those
times before Peter Jackson.
My favorite of the three books was The Two Towers, but I like the first entry
in the film trilogy the best.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 08:41 PM

"Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "GrannyGrump" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> > >deviant filth it is.
> >
> > Go away Troll.
>
> I'm sorry, I didn't realise fellow pond keepers had so little sense of
> humour, you did realise the site was a parody didn't you?

The first few minutes, I thought it was real. Comical, but real. As I got to
the bottom I became skeptical, and once I saw the WWJD thong, I became
convinced. The genius of a site like this, IMHO, is real or fake, the humor
is the same.

BV.

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 08:43 PM

"dkat" > wrote in message
t...
> Take a deep breath - several times... Now try to imagine what they COULD
> have done to the book. They did not NEARLY go as Hollywood as they might
> have. Enjoy it as "LOTR for Dummies" and for the beautiful visual quality
> of the film. Then go back and enjoy the books AGAIN (Baby dinosaurs
again).
> My last reading I actually chanted the verse out loud which is something I
> would not have done had I not seen the movie. It is very pleasant to do
so
> and completely changes to feel of the verse. I loved it.
>
> Don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing.... it is just you can take the
> pleasure from what is good or you can ruin it for yourself by expecting
them
> to do the impossible. I'm saying out loud what I say to myself. My son
and
> I declared the last Harry Potter film to be "HP for Dummies" and that is
how
> I will watch it as. I like the characters that now exist from the film
too
> much to abandon them due to a misguided director.
<snip>

Don't get me wrong. I own all of the movies, and some them multiple times
each in the theatre. I have also watched all of the DVD's repeatedly. I just
had some favorite parts in the stories and unfortunately for me, two of the
most pivotal parts in the story, IMHO, were left out when they could have
been put in without effecting cost or length of movie. So let me stew in
that a bit, if you don't mind. :)

BV.

Benign Vanilla

June 7th 04, 08:44 PM

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does anyone remember the animated LOTR?
> I think it came out in the late 70s or early 80s.
> It was terribly awful! They showed it on TV the other night and my kids
hooted
> and hollered at it. They felt so bad that we actually had to live through
those
> times before Peter Jackson.
> My favorite of the three books was The Two Towers, but I like the first
entry
> in the film trilogy the best.

My preference is for Return of the King, but I am biased. I have always felt
the story was about Aragorn, and not the ring. But again...DON'T GET ME
STARTED...

BV.

Ka30P

June 7th 04, 09:08 PM

BV wrote << I have always felt
the story was about Aragorn >>

If I was 13 years old again I'd tell
you it was all about Legolas... as it was
when I was actually 13 I think my favorite
character was Sam.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

dkat

June 7th 04, 10:03 PM

The problem is that we now live in a world that feels as if those you
parodied will soon be the people who control all. They currently control
many school boards which is why schools are teaching the bible as science
and banning the teaching of evolution. They are President Bush's base which
he caters to and they seem to gain more power each election. It is no
longer easy to tell when someone is funning because the fundamentalist
culture believes what you said in your original post. We are not talking
the fringe edge that keeps to itself anymore. Science and medicine is now
being dictated to by religious extremist. So yes, sadly, you really do have
to put a smiley face on what was not too long ago considered way to crazy to
be anything other than a joke.

"Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "axeman chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
> > news:5Yrwc.144$SC4.67@newsfe5-win...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
> > > > "realistic" sets.
> > > > the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
> > > stripped
> > > > out all the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
> > >
> > > Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> > > deviant filth it is.
> > >
> > > http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html
> > >
> >
> > Perhaps a troll, but the web site is hilarious!
> >
> > Jacqui
>
> No troll intended, just a sense of humour some didn't appreciate and
> I guess I should have included a smiley :)
>
> The Landover Baptist site has a wealth of good stuff unless you happen
> to be a Christian fundamentalist, did you check out the children's books?
>
>

dkat

June 7th 04, 10:05 PM

I remember the animated Hobbit which was so painful that I would rather have
listened to chalk on a board.

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does anyone remember the animated LOTR?
> I think it came out in the late 70s or early 80s.
> It was terribly awful! They showed it on TV the other night and my kids
hooted
> and hollered at it. They felt so bad that we actually had to live through
those
> times before Peter Jackson.
> My favorite of the three books was The Two Towers, but I like the first
entry
> in the film trilogy the best.
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

dkat

June 7th 04, 10:14 PM

Not in my minds eye. The King was the beginning of a new age. Had there
been a second trilogy it would have been about Aragorn and the age of man.
The LoTR was for me all about the magic and the people who left middle earth
at the end of the age. If there was any main character, it could only have
been Frodo. This is a females perspective if it matters. I liked Strider a
great deal. I was never sure how I felt about Aragorn.

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Does anyone remember the animated LOTR?
> > I think it came out in the late 70s or early 80s.
> > It was terribly awful! They showed it on TV the other night and my kids
> hooted
> > and hollered at it. They felt so bad that we actually had to live
through
> those
> > times before Peter Jackson.
> > My favorite of the three books was The Two Towers, but I like the first
> entry
> > in the film trilogy the best.
>
> My preference is for Return of the King, but I am biased. I have always
felt
> the story was about Aragorn, and not the ring. But again...DON'T GET ME
> STARTED...
>
> BV.
>
>

axeman chris

June 8th 04, 03:20 AM

"Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "axeman chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Evil Noodle" > wrote in message
> > news:5Yrwc.144$SC4.67@newsfe5-win...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I hated it. it is a dark and grubby movie with dark and grubby
> > > > "realistic" sets.
> > > > the director stripped nearly all the magic out of the film ... and
> > > stripped
> > > > out all the fun and warmth. yech.... Ingrid
> > >
> > > Harry Potter is the work of the Devil and should be shunned for the
> > > deviant filth it is.
> > >
> > > http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html
> > >
> >
> > Perhaps a troll, but the web site is hilarious!
> >
> > Jacqui
>
> No troll intended, just a sense of humour some didn't appreciate and
> I guess I should have included a smiley :)
>
> The Landover Baptist site has a wealth of good stuff unless you happen
> to be a Christian fundamentalist, did you check out the children's books?

I believe they did a quite funny piece on Spongebob Squarepants awhile back
too.

Jacqui
>
>

Tom L. La Bron

June 8th 04, 04:04 AM

Same here. The animated rendition was so bad that I
never got past the first 15 minutes, before I turned it
off. It was terrible.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------
dkat wrote:
> I remember the animated Hobbit which was so painful that I would rather have
> listened to chalk on a board.
>
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Does anyone remember the animated LOTR?
>>I think it came out in the late 70s or early 80s.
>>It was terribly awful! They showed it on TV the other night and my kids
>
> hooted
>
>>and hollered at it. They felt so bad that we actually had to live through
>
> those
>
>>times before Peter Jackson.
>>My favorite of the three books was The Two Towers, but I like the first
>
> entry
>
>>in the film trilogy the best.
>>
>>
>>kathy :-)
>><A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>
>
>
>

Evil Noodle

June 8th 04, 08:28 AM

"dkat" > wrote in message
t...
> The problem is that we now live in a world that feels as if those you
> parodied will soon be the people who control all. They currently control
> many school boards which is why schools are teaching the bible as
> science and banning the teaching of evolution. They are President Bush's >
base which he caters to and they seem to gain more power each election.

Quite true, I believe I read a while back that administration officials were
holding regular meetings with these religious zealots, though the details
escape me.

> It is no longer easy to tell when someone is funning because the
> fundamentalist culture believes what you said in your original post.
> We are not talking the fringe edge that keeps to itself anymore.Science
> and medicine is now being dictated to by religious extremist. So yes,
> sadly, you really do have to put a smiley face on what was not too long
> ago considered way to crazy to be anything other than a joke.

My bad then, being British I'm far removed from the immediacy of such
extremist views and within an all British group I doubt that anyone would
have taken me at all seriously.

<snip>

Benign Vanilla

June 8th 04, 02:34 PM

"dkat" > wrote in message
t...
> Not in my minds eye. The King was the beginning of a new age. Had there
> been a second trilogy it would have been about Aragorn and the age of man.
> The LoTR was for me all about the magic and the people who left middle
earth
> at the end of the age. If there was any main character, it could only
have
> been Frodo. This is a females perspective if it matters. I liked Strider
a
> great deal. I was never sure how I felt about Aragorn.
<snip>

Which is exactly how PJ felt, which is why he edited the story to follow
Frodo. I can understand that fully. I don't like the decision, but it makes
sense. For me the book has always been about the complexity of life, and
specifically the complexity of humankind. The ring, to me, was just an
example of how man can be so weak as to repeatedly make the mistake of being
devoured by the ring, but at the same time, man can be strong and overcome
anything when they want to. From page one, this story was about Aragorn
recognizing his weakness/strengths and as the heir of Isulder he is the
strong example of mankind, contrasted with his grandfather the weaker side
of man. The ring was just a medium to tell this story.

IMHO, of course.

That's the great thing about Tolkien's ability. There are so many stories in
this story.

Gollum's rise and fall.
Gandalf's fall and rise.
Sam's growth.
Frodo's coming of age.
Aragorn's internal struggle.
The coming together of elf and dwarf.
The elf's recognizing the time of man.
On and on...

BV.

[email protected]

June 8th 04, 05:47 PM

I find it extremely odd and very disconcerting that countries like England with an
"official" religion have so much less religious fanatics than the U.S. which
maintains (well until recently) the separation of church and state.
What the U.S. needs is a constitutional amendment that taxes "churches" that get
involved in the state (i.e. politics) and all church property that isnt used
specifically for church activities. I am tired of paying high taxes for religiously
exempt properties and churches who are busy trying to excommunicate anyone doesnt
agree with their political view points.
How in the world it has come to the point that my taxes now pay for somebody else to
send their kids to religious or private schools I will never understand. Or how my
tax dollars go for buses and materials for religious schools. arrrgggghhhhh.
Ingrid

"Evil Noodle" > wrote:
>My bad then, being British I'm far removed from the immediacy of such
>extremist views and within an all British group I doubt that anyone would
>have taken me at all seriously.
>
><snip>
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Benign Vanilla

June 8th 04, 05:57 PM

> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> How in the world it has come to the point that my taxes now pay for
somebody else to
> send their kids to religious or private schools I will never understand.
Or how my
> tax dollars go for buses and materials for religious schools.
arrrgggghhhhh.
<snip>

Ingrid this is something I grumble about often.

BV.

Ka30P

June 8th 04, 06:14 PM

I will dip my tippy toe into this discussion, as this issue is near and dear to
my heart and paycheck.
In our state we passed an intiative to reduce class sizes and increase teacher
pay. The governor suspended this action as we just don't have enough money. (We
do have money to spend millions and millions on high stakes testing, which is
highly suspect that this is a good thing, but that is a whole 'nother issue.)
BUT... the legislature just passed the authorization to take state funds, that
are apparently very dear, and establish charter schools. Now another group of
citizens has started a petition drive to put an intiative on the ballot to
outlaw charter schools... it is two steps forward, six steps to one side, three
steps back, bow to your partner....

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

[email protected]

June 8th 04, 06:21 PM

And I find the story to be about love/friendship/sacrifcie vs greed/power/corruption.
It is the bonds of friendship that enables "good" to conquer "evil". In many ways
the people in LotR are more fictitious than in HP. They are all "good" or all "evil"
in LotR while in HP there is Snape and others that are both good and bad, and yet
joined to fight evil.
OTOH, there is Boromir who momentarily gives in to temptation.
Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
.. For me the book has always been about the complexity of life, and
>specifically the complexity of humankind. The ring, to me, was just an
>example of how man can be so weak as to repeatedly make the mistake of being
>devoured by the ring, but at the same time, man can be strong and overcome
>anything when they want to. From page one, this story was about Aragorn
>recognizing his weakness/strengths and as the heir of Isulder he is the
>strong example of mankind, contrasted with his grandfather the weaker side
>of man. The ring was just a medium to tell this story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 02:17 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > How in the world it has come to the point that my taxes now pay for
> somebody else to
> > send their kids to religious or private schools I will never understand.
> Or how my
> > tax dollars go for buses and materials for religious schools.
> arrrgggghhhhh.
> <snip>
>
> Ingrid this is something I grumble about often.
>
> BV.

In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents to send
their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money to do
this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our new
provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school funding is
in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.

Jacqui

dkat

June 9th 04, 02:47 AM

For me the flaws are less obvious in those that are 'good' in LoTR than in
HP but they are there between the lines. It seems that in LoTR each
character symbolizes only one or two meaningful characteristics. What is
not there is any sense of 'good' within those that are evil or that we might
see as evil except for Gollum. LoTR will always be books I love (I'm
assuming that if that hasn't changed over 3 decades then it won't at all)
but what I find so wonderful in HP and Earthsea trilogy is how it allows us
to see our faults in others and see how they learned from them. There is
more depth to the characters for me - more humanity. There are times I
actually don't like the 'good' characters in HP. Anyway, that was just a
sidebar, I agree with what you say actually.

> wrote in message
...
> And I find the story to be about love/friendship/sacrifcie vs
greed/power/corruption.
> It is the bonds of friendship that enables "good" to conquer "evil". In
many ways
> the people in LotR are more fictitious than in HP. They are all "good" or
all "evil"
> in LotR while in HP there is Snape and others that are both good and bad,
and yet
> joined to fight evil.
> OTOH, there is Boromir who momentarily gives in to temptation.
> Ingrid
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> . For me the book has always been about the complexity of life, and
> >specifically the complexity of humankind. The ring, to me, was just an
> >example of how man can be so weak as to repeatedly make the mistake of
being
> >devoured by the ring, but at the same time, man can be strong and
overcome
> >anything when they want to. From page one, this story was about Aragorn
> >recognizing his weakness/strengths and as the heir of Isulder he is the
> >strong example of mankind, contrasted with his grandfather the weaker
side
> >of man. The ring was just a medium to tell this story.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

Janet

June 9th 04, 04:07 AM

--

"axeman chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > How in the world it has come to the point that my taxes now pay for
> > somebody else to
> > > send their kids to religious or private schools I will never
understand.
> > Or how my
> > > tax dollars go for buses and materials for religious schools.
> > arrrgggghhhhh.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Ingrid this is something I grumble about often.
> >
> > BV.
>
> In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents to
send
> their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money to
do
> this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our new
> provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school funding
is
> in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.
>
> Jacqui
>
>
But one must also go on to say that here in Ontario we also have publically
funded religious education Jacqui.... That would be our seperate school
boards ( read Catholic School Boards for our Ameri-friends)! It's guaranteed
constitutionally under the British North American Act as well as the Tache
Act.

Janet in Niagara Falls, a proud Mom to 3 students in the seperate board. :o)

[email protected]

June 9th 04, 04:34 AM

yup. and some of these charter schools dont have any review system so when suddenly
they shut their door cause they gone bankrupt ... all the kids are stuffed back into
the public system. now. what really gets me is Wisconsin PUBLIC school system has
1/2 of all the kids score 100% on the SATs nationwide last year.. it is the PUBLIC
schools systems that produce the most national merit scholars. but it is mostly the
wealthier suburban public schools that get something like twice as much money per
student as the city kids since how much each kid gets is based on property taxes.
rural kids suffer poorer schools too. we moved into the city cause DH wanted to work
with city kids. but these kids need more than burb kids. a lot of them have
learning disabilities that are inherited from parents who were themselves untreated
and under educated. or mental illnesses, drug abuse, etc. DH comes home with real
horror stories, kids even getting killed. children cannot do well in school when
they live in total chaos from the day they are born.
and no private or religious school gonna take kids with these kind of problems. for
all that private/religious schools get to take the cream of the crop the kids dont do
any better on standardized tests than the kids from public schools. all this really
does is take money from the only system that is mandated to provide for all kids no
matter what language they speak, how physically or mentally handicapped, no matter
how disruptive. pfffft.
Ingrid

(Ka30P) wrote:
>I will dip my tippy toe into this discussion, as this issue is near and dear to
>my heart and paycheck.
>In our state we passed an intiative to reduce class sizes and increase teacher
>pay. The governor suspended this action as we just don't have enough money. (We
>do have money to spend millions and millions on high stakes testing, which is
>highly suspect that this is a good thing, but that is a whole 'nother issue.)
>BUT... the legislature just passed the authorization to take state funds, that
>are apparently very dear, and establish charter schools. Now another group of
>citizens has started a petition drive to put an intiative on the ballot to
>outlaw charter schools... it is two steps forward, six steps to one side, three
>steps back, bow to your partner....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Benign Vanilla

June 9th 04, 02:04 PM

"dkat" > wrote in message
et...
> For me the flaws are less obvious in those that are 'good' in LoTR than in
> HP but they are there between the lines. It seems that in LoTR each
> character symbolizes only one or two meaningful characteristics. What is
> not there is any sense of 'good' within those that are evil or that we
might
> see as evil except for Gollum. LoTR will always be books I love (I'm
> assuming that if that hasn't changed over 3 decades then it won't at all)
> but what I find so wonderful in HP and Earthsea trilogy is how it allows
us
> to see our faults in others and see how they learned from them. There is
> more depth to the characters for me - more humanity. There are times I
> actually don't like the 'good' characters in HP. Anyway, that was just a
> sidebar, I agree with what you say actually.

Really?

Borimir's greed for the ring
Faramir's father's lack of love for his son
Suaromon turning from good to evil
The ents, being loving being, becoming violent
The dead army, coming to fulfill their duty and honor after having run off
The Naazgul, good men turned evil
The whole strider to Aragorn transition
The good and wise elves running out on the humans

There's plenty of complexity...

BV.

Benign Vanilla

June 9th 04, 02:06 PM

"axeman chris" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents to
send
> their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money to
do
> this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our new
> provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school funding
is
> in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.

The whole voucher program and anything like it, to me, screams, "our school
suck so let's give up and send them mone elsewhere." I have nothing against
religion, but I don't want to pay for it.

BV.

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 02:34 PM

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> --
>
> "axeman chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > <snip>
> > > > How in the world it has come to the point that my taxes now pay for
> > > somebody else to
> > > > send their kids to religious or private schools I will never
> understand.
> > > Or how my
> > > > tax dollars go for buses and materials for religious schools.
> > > arrrgggghhhhh.
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Ingrid this is something I grumble about often.
> > >
> > > BV.
> >
> > In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents to
> send
> > their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money
to
> do
> > this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our new
> > provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school
funding
> is
> > in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.
> >
> > Jacqui
> >
> >
> But one must also go on to say that here in Ontario we also have
publically
> funded religious education Jacqui.... That would be our seperate school
> boards ( read Catholic School Boards for our Ameri-friends)! It's
guaranteed
> constitutionally under the British North American Act as well as the Tache
> Act.
>
> Janet in Niagara Falls, a proud Mom to 3 students in the seperate board.
:o)

Yes, I think we are a bit unique that way :-) However, since the separate
schools are now fully funded with taxpayer money, they are under the same
sorts of obligations as the public board is. Anyone can attend whether the
student is Catholic or not - you just have to accept the Catholic aspects of
the curriculum. And that's fine - it's the "exclusivity" of many of the
private institutions that I find bothersome, as well as the lack of public
accountability. I also think that because the separate boards are so large
that a great deal of plurality is maintained through the diversity of
students. There isn't the narrowness of viewpoint that some faith based
schools are prone to.

Having said that, I would still argue that we only need one public board.
Nothing against Catholics - I'm married to one! The overlap of services
between the two boards in our area (Hamilton Wentworth) is phenomenal. For
example, there are 2 French immersion schools within walking distance of my
house (one public, one separate), yet many areas of the city and especially
rural areas have no access at all to this program. Bussing is another
overlap that costs lots of $. When money is such an issue in education
these days I hate to think of what is spent on dual administration,
maintenance, special education and other such services. It would at least
be nice to see some cooperation between boards over shared services (like
bussing). At any rate, that's just my point of view. My public school
teacher, Catholic husband disagrees with me and I'm sure many others do too!
It's just nice to be able to air views on education, differing though they
may be. It's one subject I cannot bear apathy about!

Jacqui, in Hamilton... getting ready for yet another big thunder storm.
Looks like my poor water lily is going to take another beating today.

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 02:50 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "axeman chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents to
> send
> > their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money
to
> do
> > this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our new
> > provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school
funding
> is
> > in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.
>
> The whole voucher program and anything like it, to me, screams, "our
school
> suck so let's give up and send them mone elsewhere." I have nothing
against
> religion, but I don't want to pay for it.
>
> BV.

It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more money you take away, the
worse the school does get. I know proponents of vouchers claim that system
gives all parents & students choice, but tell that to the single working
mother who can't drive/taxi her kid across town to the "good" school.

Jacqui
>
>

[email protected]

June 9th 04, 03:04 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>Borimir's greed for the ring
........ for noble purpose tho, he believes men can wield it to defend against \Sauron
>Faramir's father's lack of love for his son
........... father is mentally deranged maybe after hearing Boromir died?
>Suaromon turning from good to evil
....... all evil by the time the book starts
>The ents, being loving being, becoming violent
......... they are defending their woods
>The dead army, coming to fulfill their duty and honor after having run off
............. the bad, trying to redeem themselves
>The Naazgul, good men turned evil
........... all bad
>The whole strider to Aragorn transition
.......... ??? he always was Aragorn, all good defending people all the time
>The good and wise elves running out on the humans
>
>There's plenty of complexity...
..... complexity is the same person having good and bad at the same time, and
unpredictability, not being sure what they are going to do in a situation...
Gollum is perhaps the most complex person for this reason

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ka30P

June 9th 04, 03:05 PM

Question to my sister Canuks -- I went to elementary school in Vancouver BC in
the 60s and I remember being read Bible stories. Specifically Joesph and his
Coat of many Colours. I didn't think much of it until I was older, in the
states and the whole religion in public institutions started to take center
stage.
Do any of you remember religious teaching in elementary school? I attended
grades one thru three, then grades seven thru nine.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 03:40 PM

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Question to my sister Canuks -- I went to elementary school in Vancouver
BC in
> the 60s and I remember being read Bible stories. Specifically Joesph and
his
> Coat of many Colours. I didn't think much of it until I was older, in the
> states and the whole religion in public institutions started to take
center
> stage.
> Do any of you remember religious teaching in elementary school? I attended
> grades one thru three, then grades seven thru nine.
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

In the '70's we would be told Bible stories centred around the major
holidays like Christmas & Easter. Other than that I don't remember any
other bible stories being told. It wouldn't have surprised me if they had
though. I grew up in a small community where we were almost all white and
Christian. The most exotic we got was the lone J.W. kid who left class &
stood in the hall during the national anthem & the Lord's prayer. Once I
was in high school the only religious aspect of school was the optional
"World Religions" class, which was academically very interesting and also
full of lots of great debates on various religious teachings & morality in
general.

Jacqui

Janet

June 9th 04, 03:53 PM

--

"axeman chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents
to
> > send
> > > their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't money
> to
> > do
> > > this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our
new
> > > provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school
> funding
> > is
> > > in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.
> > >
> > > Jacqui
> > >
> > >
> > But one must also go on to say that here in Ontario we also have
> publically
> > funded religious education Jacqui.... That would be our seperate school
> > boards ( read Catholic School Boards for our Ameri-friends)! It's
> guaranteed
> > constitutionally under the British North American Act as well as the
Tache
> > Act.
> >
> > Janet in Niagara Falls, a proud Mom to 3 students in the seperate board.
> :o)
>
> Yes, I think we are a bit unique that way :-) However, since the separate
> schools are now fully funded with taxpayer money, they are under the same
> sorts of obligations as the public board is. Anyone can attend whether
the
> student is Catholic or not - you just have to accept the Catholic aspects
of
> the curriculum. And that's fine - it's the "exclusivity" of many of the
> private institutions that I find bothersome, as well as the lack of public
> accountability. I also think that because the separate boards are so
large
> that a great deal of plurality is maintained through the diversity of
> students. There isn't the narrowness of viewpoint that some faith based
> schools are prone to.
>
> Having said that, I would still argue that we only need one public board.
> Nothing against Catholics - I'm married to one! The overlap of services
> between the two boards in our area (Hamilton Wentworth) is phenomenal.
For
> example, there are 2 French immersion schools within walking distance of
my
> house (one public, one separate), yet many areas of the city and
especially
> rural areas have no access at all to this program. Bussing is another
> overlap that costs lots of $. When money is such an issue in education
> these days I hate to think of what is spent on dual administration,
> maintenance, special education and other such services. It would at least
> be nice to see some cooperation between boards over shared services (like
> bussing). At any rate, that's just my point of view. My public school
> teacher, Catholic husband disagrees with me and I'm sure many others do
too!
> It's just nice to be able to air views on education, differing though
they
> may be. It's one subject I cannot bear apathy about!
>
> Jacqui, in Hamilton... getting ready for yet another big thunder storm.
> Looks like my poor water lily is going to take another beating today.
>
>
Jacqui the whole same obligation as the public boards is only partially
true... In the seperate boards our kids have 4 extra mandatory credits
required at the highschool level, that being religion. It's also only
partially correct about anyone attending. Technically speaking either one
or both parents must be Catholic in order to direct their school taxes to
the seperate board. Catholics are also enrolled first, if there is room left
then non-Catholics are given the option. We have been in 3 schools in the
last several years that were over-flowing so non-Catholics were not
permitted to enroll.

As one involved extensively in education in this province, specifically in
the special ed. arena I can tell you something... Both Hamilton boards have
notorious reputations across this province for not working well together as
well as being rather radical at times. There are places in this province,
Niagara being on the top of the Ministry list, where our boards work well
together. Not only do have a "joint use" school here in Niagara Falls where
one side of the building is a public school and the other is a seperate
school and the 2 share a gym and library in the middle of the building. Both
our boards also share busing where they can. The seperate board also
implemented a staggered start and dismiss program several years ago so buses
are used for several schools which dramatically reduced the transportation
budget. Both our boards also are involved in a buying co-op which reduced
the overall cost of paper supplies and textbooks. The Niagara Catholic
District School Board has repeatedly been on the ministry's excellence list
for practices like these, amoung others. Because of practices like these and
fiscal restraint in the past my board is in great financial shape, so much
so that my oldest son just moved into his brand new, state of the art
highschool at March break with another new elementary school slated to open
in September, and that's just here in Niagara Falls. :o)

As a Mom to 2 identified students I can tell you with certainty that there
is no savings to be made in the area of special education. Kids need
services no matter which board they are in. Our experience has been that
services are much more readily available here in the seperate board. So many
of the services required by these kids are one on one services that
congregating kids in one board or one school would make no difference. It
would only be detrimental to the kids. Jacqui get on both your boards
butt's... it's time they loose their radical way of thinking and start
figuring out how to work together to make the funding formula work for them,
not against them! :o)

Janet In Niagara Falls, not looking forward to these forcasted storms! :oO

Benign Vanilla

June 9th 04, 05:43 PM

> wrote in message
...
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> >Borimir's greed for the ring
> ....... for noble purpose tho, he believes men can wield it to defend
against \Sauron

Some would say the ring was manipulating that small piece of us that is
evil. The ring can not be weilded for noble purposes, as it is the wearer
that is weilded by the ring. Bad ring, bas, nasty naughty precious.

> >Faramir's father's lack of love for his son
> .......... father is mentally deranged maybe after hearing Boromir died?

Maybe. But to me this was an example of a guy that was good in the sense
that he acted as the steward, protected the city, acted "nobely", yet he
could treat his own, very noble, son like dirt. Good and bad in one man.

> >Suaromon turning from good to evil
> ...... all evil by the time the book starts

Sauromon was originally good, and was turned by greed for the ring to become
evil, working with/for Sauron, but even more evilly, working actually to
some day wield the ring over Sauron. So we have a guy that was so good that
he led the council of wizards, yet in the end turned so evil that he wanted
to overthrow evil itself.

> >The ents, being loving being, becoming violent
> ........ they are defending their woods

True, good point. But treebeard does talk about the ents and the trees fo
fangorn becoming more and more belligerent over time, and less "at one with
everything' or however he put it. There was a reason that beings feared
being in the Fangorn, and it wasn't because of hobbits ;)

> >The dead army, coming to fulfill their duty and honor after having run
off
> ............ the bad, trying to redeem themselves

YES!!! Absolutely! A perfect example of beings with both naughty and nice in
them, right perfect on topic!

> >The Naazgul, good men turned evil
> .......... all bad

Originally good, turned evil. Another example of how mankind can be good,
but be led to evil by greed.

> >The whole strider to Aragorn transition
> ......... ??? he always was Aragorn, all good defending people all the
time

He has always been Aragorn yes. And he has always been good, yes. I guess
what I meant was he went from being self-centered to realizing his
responsibility and rising to the nobel task of saving all mankind. Not
really a blend of bad and good, but certainly a complexity of stature.

> >The good and wise elves running out on the humans
> >
> >There's plenty of complexity...
> .... complexity is the same person having good and bad at the same time,
and
> unpredictability, not being sure what they are going to do in a
situation...
> Gollum is perhaps the most complex person for this reason

Gollum is to me, the same as Boromir. Gollum is what he is because of the
ring. He was a good little hafling, enticed by the ring, and eventually
brought to be evil. But we see throughout his life how he second guesses his
evil, so in a sense he is a perfect example of good and the bad in one
being.

Good discussion.

BV.

Ka30P

June 9th 04, 05:52 PM

We had a Compartive Religions class in my USA high school. Also a very good
class, very small with only interested kids attending so it was an
easy/challenging class for the teacher to teach.
Nothing offered like that in my teen's high school today. Though they do have
an alternative religions club.

>>As a Mom to 2 identified students I can tell you with certainty that there
is no savings to be made in the area of special education. <<

Another subject near and dear to mine heart as the mother of a dyslexic 8th
grader. Though he has had excellent teachers, they are overwhelmed with the
number and scope of all the students that come their way. Luckily I had the
time, money and the skill (not being dyslexic myself) to supplement his
education. We could use triple the dollars for the programs and still need
more.

The other thing I noticed has changed is the whole second language issue. We
started French in grade eight when I was in school in Canada. A Canadian
friend has her daughter starting in kindergarten. Here foreign language is
offered, Spanish only, as a supplemental class in middle school. All college
bound students must have two years in high school.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 06:25 PM

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> We had a Compartive Religions class in my USA high school. Also a very
good
> class, very small with only interested kids attending so it was an
> easy/challenging class for the teacher to teach.
> Nothing offered like that in my teen's high school today. Though they do
have
> an alternative religions club.
>
> >>As a Mom to 2 identified students I can tell you with certainty that
there
> is no savings to be made in the area of special education. <<
>
> Another subject near and dear to mine heart as the mother of a dyslexic
8th
> grader. Though he has had excellent teachers, they are overwhelmed with
the
> number and scope of all the students that come their way. Luckily I had
the
> time, money and the skill (not being dyslexic myself) to supplement his
> education. We could use triple the dollars for the programs and still need
> more.
>
> The other thing I noticed has changed is the whole second language issue.
We
> started French in grade eight when I was in school in Canada. A Canadian
> friend has her daughter starting in kindergarten. Here foreign language is
> offered, Spanish only, as a supplemental class in middle school. All
college
> bound students must have two years in high school.
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

My eldest daughter is in JK this year & will be starting French Immersion
next fall in SK. It's an opportunity I wish I had had. However, I have 3
girls and I'm not going to have teenage daughters who can speak a language I
can't, so I'll be taking a French course myself in the near future.

Jacqui

axeman chris

June 9th 04, 06:28 PM

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> --
>
> "axeman chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Janet" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > In Ontario we had a very short lived tax credit that allowed parents
> to
> > > send
> > > > their kids to religious and/or private schools and receive gov't
money
> > to
> > > do
> > > > this. It took $ directly out of the public system. Thankfully our
> new
> > > > provincial government got rid of that in a hurry. Public school
> > funding
> > > is
> > > > in enough trouble without that sort of nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > Jacqui
> > > >
> > > >
> > > But one must also go on to say that here in Ontario we also have
> > publically
> > > funded religious education Jacqui.... That would be our seperate
school
> > > boards ( read Catholic School Boards for our Ameri-friends)! It's
> > guaranteed
> > > constitutionally under the British North American Act as well as the
> Tache
> > > Act.
> > >
> > > Janet in Niagara Falls, a proud Mom to 3 students in the seperate
board.
> > :o)
> >
> > Yes, I think we are a bit unique that way :-) However, since the
separate
> > schools are now fully funded with taxpayer money, they are under the
same
> > sorts of obligations as the public board is. Anyone can attend whether
> the
> > student is Catholic or not - you just have to accept the Catholic
aspects
> of
> > the curriculum. And that's fine - it's the "exclusivity" of many of
the
> > private institutions that I find bothersome, as well as the lack of
public
> > accountability. I also think that because the separate boards are so
> large
> > that a great deal of plurality is maintained through the diversity of
> > students. There isn't the narrowness of viewpoint that some faith
based
> > schools are prone to.
> >
> > Having said that, I would still argue that we only need one public
board.
> > Nothing against Catholics - I'm married to one! The overlap of
services
> > between the two boards in our area (Hamilton Wentworth) is phenomenal.
> For
> > example, there are 2 French immersion schools within walking distance of
> my
> > house (one public, one separate), yet many areas of the city and
> especially
> > rural areas have no access at all to this program. Bussing is another
> > overlap that costs lots of $. When money is such an issue in education
> > these days I hate to think of what is spent on dual administration,
> > maintenance, special education and other such services. It would at
least
> > be nice to see some cooperation between boards over shared services
(like
> > bussing). At any rate, that's just my point of view. My public school
> > teacher, Catholic husband disagrees with me and I'm sure many others do
> too!
> > It's just nice to be able to air views on education, differing though
> they
> > may be. It's one subject I cannot bear apathy about!
> >
> > Jacqui, in Hamilton... getting ready for yet another big thunder storm.
> > Looks like my poor water lily is going to take another beating today.
> >
> >
> Jacqui the whole same obligation as the public boards is only
partially
> true... In the seperate boards our kids have 4 extra mandatory credits
> required at the highschool level, that being religion. It's also only
> partially correct about anyone attending. Technically speaking either one
> or both parents must be Catholic in order to direct their school taxes to
> the seperate board. Catholics are also enrolled first, if there is room
left
> then non-Catholics are given the option. We have been in 3 schools in the
> last several years that were over-flowing so non-Catholics were not
> permitted to enroll.
>
> As one involved extensively in education in this province, specifically
in
> the special ed. arena I can tell you something... Both Hamilton boards
have
> notorious reputations across this province for not working well together
as
> well as being rather radical at times. There are places in this province,
> Niagara being on the top of the Ministry list, where our boards work well
> together. Not only do have a "joint use" school here in Niagara Falls
where
> one side of the building is a public school and the other is a seperate
> school and the 2 share a gym and library in the middle of the building.
Both
> our boards also share busing where they can. The seperate board also
> implemented a staggered start and dismiss program several years ago so
buses
> are used for several schools which dramatically reduced the transportation
> budget. Both our boards also are involved in a buying co-op which reduced
> the overall cost of paper supplies and textbooks. The Niagara Catholic
> District School Board has repeatedly been on the ministry's excellence
list
> for practices like these, amoung others. Because of practices like these
and
> fiscal restraint in the past my board is in great financial shape, so much
> so that my oldest son just moved into his brand new, state of the art
> highschool at March break with another new elementary school slated to
open
> in September, and that's just here in Niagara Falls. :o)
>
> As a Mom to 2 identified students I can tell you with certainty that there
> is no savings to be made in the area of special education. Kids need
> services no matter which board they are in. Our experience has been that
> services are much more readily available here in the seperate board. So
many
> of the services required by these kids are one on one services that
> congregating kids in one board or one school would make no difference. It
> would only be detrimental to the kids. Jacqui get on both your boards
> butt's... it's time they loose their radical way of thinking and start
> figuring out how to work together to make the funding formula work for
them,
> not against them! :o)
>
> Janet In Niagara Falls, not looking forward to these forcasted storms! :oO

Wow! The Niagara boards should really be held up as an example to the
others. It is very heartening to hear about such cooperation. Maybe
there's hope for us Hamiltonians yet! :-)

Jacqui
>
>

Ka30P

June 9th 04, 07:01 PM

Jacqui wrote >>I'm not going to have teenage daughters who can speak a language
I
can't, so I'll be taking a French course myself<<

chortle!
My sister-in-law has two daughters who both were exchange students and both
speak Slovakian...

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Janet

June 10th 04, 03:20 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ka30P" >
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: OT Education was new Harry Potter film

Kathy in our seperate highschools there is a world religion studies course
option in either grade 11 or 12. I know I saw it in my son's course guide
book and we talked a little about it. He is thinking he may take it in one
of those years...

>
> We had a Compartive Religions class in my USA high school. Also a very
good
> class, very small with only interested kids attending so it was an
> easy/challenging class for the teacher to teach.
> Nothing offered like that in my teen's high school today. Though they do
have
> an alternative religions club.
>
> >>As a Mom to 2 identified students I can tell you with certainty that
there
> is no savings to be made in the area of special education. <<
>
> Another subject near and dear to mine heart as the mother of a dyslexic
8th
> grader. Though he has had excellent teachers, they are overwhelmed with
the
> number and scope of all the students that come their way. Luckily I had
the
> time, money and the skill (not being dyslexic myself) to supplement his
> education. We could use triple the dollars for the programs and still need
> more.
>

Been there, done that and pray I don't have to do it again! ;o) My oldest is
diagnosed with learning disabilities, central auditory processing disorder
(CAPD) and also has visual processing issues. I cringe when I think about
how much money we've spent, he's also had extensive occupational therapy at
school as well as worked with a speech-language therapist. He also wears an
FM system at school for all his classes. My middle kiddo is actually a
gifted learner (go figure!) and my youngest is incredibly similar to her
older brother. She also has CAPD and was speech delayed. She was enrolled in
a special class for SK where she spent a half day in a regular classroom and
the other half with a speech language therapist.

> The other thing I noticed has changed is the whole second language issue.
We
> started French in grade eight when I was in school in Canada. A Canadian
> friend has her daughter starting in kindergarten. Here foreign language is
> offered, Spanish only, as a supplemental class in middle school. All
college
> bound students must have two years in high school.
>
>
Our kids now start learning french in juniour kindergarden.It's been this
way in my board for 9 years. My middle kiddo is in grade 7 and was the first
year. My brother is completely bilingual (thanks to living in Paris for 2
years, not school) and my kiddo can hold a conversation with him. My
youngest, even with her language difficulties is actually quite
conversational in french as well. Our kids must take french all the way
through elementary and must have 1 french credit to graduate highschool.
Janet in Niagara Falls who thankfully missed the doosy storm today!

> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Janet

June 10th 04, 03:23 AM

--

"axeman chris" > wrote in message
...

> My eldest daughter is in JK this year & will be starting French Immersion
> next fall in SK. It's an opportunity I wish I had had. However, I have 3
> girls and I'm not going to have teenage daughters who can speak a language
I
> can't, so I'll be taking a French course myself in the near future.
>
> Jacqui
>
>
ROTFLMAO! That is too funny. I must say though by the time they are
teenagers they become invisible anyway...
Janet... Mom to a 15 yr old that we never see, we just check from time to
time to see if he's *still* on the phone! :o)

Ka30P

June 10th 04, 04:28 AM

Janet wrote >>Been there, done that and pray I don't have to do it again! <<

It took a couple years for our youngest to be diagnosed dyslexic and a visual
spatial learner. I often wish I could have stopped time for a year and read all
the books I eventually plowed through to figure out what to do. And I'm still
doing it, just read one last month and am still learning things about the
wonderful world of the visual spatial soul.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

dkat

June 10th 04, 04:32 AM

This is my red button issue. Education in our country is highly dependent
on parents being part of the process and the schools are financed for the
most part on property taxes so kids who come from poor families get double
whammied. Their parents don't have the education to aid in the children's
education and the schools don't have the money to supply the materials or
teachers for a modern education. We have schools in NYC where the children
cannot take books home because they don't have them, teachers supply paper,
pencils, etc. themselves, there is no such thing as a lab or computer class.
This is one of the reasons we are developing a larger and larger gap between
the wealthy and the poor here. There is something terribly wrong when 80% of
our population has less than 16% of the wealth (40% less than 1% of the
wealth). We are the wealthiest country in the world supposedly yet we are
unable to care for our own children either with education and health care.
Deep breath.... sorry, I swore I was never going to rant in here again but
this is something everyone should feel shame for.

> wrote in message
...
> yup. and some of these charter schools dont have any review system so when
suddenly
> they shut their door cause they gone bankrupt ... all the kids are stuffed
back into
> the public system. now. what really gets me is Wisconsin PUBLIC school
system has
> 1/2 of all the kids score 100% on the SATs nationwide last year.. it is
the PUBLIC
> schools systems that produce the most national merit scholars. but it is
mostly the
> wealthier suburban public schools that get something like twice as much
money per
> student as the city kids since how much each kid gets is based on property
taxes.
> rural kids suffer poorer schools too. we moved into the city cause DH
wanted to work
> with city kids. but these kids need more than burb kids. a lot of them
have
> learning disabilities that are inherited from parents who were themselves
untreated
> and under educated. or mental illnesses, drug abuse, etc. DH comes home
with real
> horror stories, kids even getting killed. children cannot do well in
school when
> they live in total chaos from the day they are born.
> and no private or religious school gonna take kids with these kind of
problems. for
> all that private/religious schools get to take the cream of the crop the
kids dont do
> any better on standardized tests than the kids from public schools. all
this really
> does is take money from the only system that is mandated to provide for
all kids no
> matter what language they speak, how physically or mentally handicapped,
no matter
> how disruptive. pfffft.
> Ingrid
>
> (Ka30P) wrote:
> >I will dip my tippy toe into this discussion, as this issue is near and
dear to
> >my heart and paycheck.
> >In our state we passed an intiative to reduce class sizes and increase
teacher
> >pay. The governor suspended this action as we just don't have enough
money. (We
> >do have money to spend millions and millions on high stakes testing,
which is
> >highly suspect that this is a good thing, but that is a whole 'nother
issue.)
> >BUT... the legislature just passed the authorization to take state funds,
that
> >are apparently very dear, and establish charter schools. Now another
group of
> >citizens has started a petition drive to put an intiative on the ballot
to
> >outlaw charter schools... it is two steps forward, six steps to one side,
three
> >steps back, bow to your partner....
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.