Testing the waters -- new pond or three in my future

[RainLover]

Hi everyone,

I'm across the Puget Sound from Seattle, Washington and am planning a huge
pond.

I've built a couple of ponds in my past (150 gallon and a 1500 gallon with
waterfall and steep watercourse), but now I'm on a new piece of property.
I've just spent the last week or so catching up on this group (14,000 messages
or so, but I didn't read them all because I'm lazy, hehehe)

I'm an artist by trade and am planning on setting up a 1 acre section of my
property as a sculpture park and showing my work as well as other artists.
The pond I'm planning for this area will be much larger than anything I've
done in the past (I'm going to set up some pictures of the raw land on a web
site soon if anyone here cares to see it and offer suggestions).

The pond will be approximately 25' x 35' and will have an island in the center
(for displaying sculpture with a moon bridge to it. About 20' away from this
pond will be a steep watercourse about 15' high and 20' long going to a small
'creek' that leads to the pond.

While I would love to have koi, I have every predator known to mankind around
my house and may let the frogs move in if they see fit and leave it at that.
Because it's going to be a 'gallery' type setting, nets and other deterrents
would be a little unsitely.


I have TONS of questions... some you guys and gals can answer, some I have
still have to figure out, but I'll read advice and suggestions for all of it.

How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun, but
I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as well.)
Even so, the sun will rule.

Should it be 'formal' or 'natural' looking?

Does a deeper water pond help keep algae growth down due to cooler water
temps?

Part of the pond is going to be under an existing weeping willow tree, so what
sort of skimmer should I use to help with fall leaves? (I'm going to
'containerize' the 20' high tree to keep the roots out of the pond and to help
restrict it's ultimate size... there will be a steel ring underground about
8' out from the trunk.

Should I use a rubber liner? Concrete? Clay?

So many questions, so little money. ;-)


Thanks!

James Kelsey


www.jameskelseystudios.com

[Gareee©]

"RainLover" > wrote in message
...

> How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
but
> I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
well.)

Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
day, in the right weather conditions.

We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.

That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
see what is recommended...


--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Ka30P]

Hello James, from SE WA,

wow, oh wow! This sounds so very kewl!

With that big of pond, a 20' long creek, you won't need a filtering system.
Make the predators your friends and Mother Nature will keep your stocking down.
I would look more at native fish. It doesn't hurt as much when a heron makes
off with one. Contact the fish and wildlife folks and they can help you with
stocking. The rest of the critters will move in and set up shop.

A skimmer, on the other hand, would be a good thing as it will reduce overall
maintenance. Especially with a tree so close - will look wonderful and a
skimmer will help 'harvest' the leaves and reduce the amount of sludge that
will build up.

A natural setting will also mean less maintenance.
Consider putting all your plantings in pots, securely anchored so you won't be
spending time mowing down cattails. Same with bamboo - consult with your local
nursery as it can get scary...

Deeper is better for all concerned.
>>Should I use a rubber liner? Concrete? Clay?<<
Good question, this is where your county extension can help. Some areas can
support an earth pond, just dredge it out and let it fill up.
There is an excellent book about earth ponds:
EARTH PONDS SOURCE BOOK by Tim Matson.

For algae - low stocking, keeping rotting vegetation out of the pond, water
movement will all help keep it at bay. Also the siting of the pond, run off
into the pond is bad, especially fertilized run off. Plantings can absorb that
run off, building berms, raised edges.

Others will chime in. I'm going to go look at your
webpage.


kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

[Mark Bannister]

FYI: there are varieties of bamboo called "clumping" that do not spread.
The only way I now of to get rid of bamboo involves a shovel and lots of
sweat.

Gareee© wrote:
> "RainLover" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
>
> but
>
>>I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
>
> well.)
>
> Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
> roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
> day, in the right weather conditions.
>
> We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
> here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
> already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.
>
> That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
> see what is recommended...
>
>

[Gareee©]

"Mark Bannister" > wrote in message
.. .
> FYI: there are varieties of bamboo called "clumping" that do not spread.
> The only way I now of to get rid of bamboo involves a shovel and lots of
> sweat.

We're not talking shovels here.. we're talking renting a small track hoe, or
some such.. otherwise it'll be growing up behind me as I clear it out! I
have almost 1/4 acre of it now, and my yard is only 1.23 acres as it is.


--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Mark Bannister]

You could wait 100 years for it to bloom. Most varieties die after that.

Gareee© wrote:
> "Mark Bannister" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>FYI: there are varieties of bamboo called "clumping" that do not spread.
>>The only way I now of to get rid of bamboo involves a shovel and lots of
>>sweat.
>
>
> We're not talking shovels here.. we're talking renting a small track hoe, or
> some such.. otherwise it'll be growing up behind me as I clear it out! I
> have almost 1/4 acre of it now, and my yard is only 1.23 acres as it is.
>
>

[bluegill phil]

You should try bluegills
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 08:17:31 -0700, RainLover
> wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>I'm across the Puget Sound from Seattle, Washington and am planning a huge
>pond.
>
>I've built a couple of ponds in my past (150 gallon and a 1500 gallon with
>waterfall and steep watercourse), but now I'm on a new piece of property.
>I've just spent the last week or so catching up on this group (14,000 messages
>or so, but I didn't read them all because I'm lazy, hehehe)
>
>I'm an artist by trade and am planning on setting up a 1 acre section of my
>property as a sculpture park and showing my work as well as other artists.
>The pond I'm planning for this area will be much larger than anything I've
>done in the past (I'm going to set up some pictures of the raw land on a web
>site soon if anyone here cares to see it and offer suggestions).
>
>The pond will be approximately 25' x 35' and will have an island in the center
>(for displaying sculpture with a moon bridge to it. About 20' away from this
>pond will be a steep watercourse about 15' high and 20' long going to a small
>'creek' that leads to the pond.
>
>While I would love to have koi, I have every predator known to mankind around
>my house and may let the frogs move in if they see fit and leave it at that.
>Because it's going to be a 'gallery' type setting, nets and other deterrents
>would be a little unsitely.
>
>
>I have TONS of questions... some you guys and gals can answer, some I have
>still have to figure out, but I'll read advice and suggestions for all of it.
>
>How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun, but
>I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as well.)
>Even so, the sun will rule.
>
>Should it be 'formal' or 'natural' looking?
>
>Does a deeper water pond help keep algae growth down due to cooler water
>temps?
>
>Part of the pond is going to be under an existing weeping willow tree, so what
>sort of skimmer should I use to help with fall leaves? (I'm going to
>'containerize' the 20' high tree to keep the roots out of the pond and to help
>restrict it's ultimate size... there will be a steel ring underground about
>8' out from the trunk.
>
>Should I use a rubber liner? Concrete? Clay?
>
>So many questions, so little money. ;-)
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>James Kelsey
>
>
>www.jameskelseystudios.com
>
>
>
>

[RainLover]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:09:05 -0400, "Gareee©" >
wrote:

>"RainLover" > wrote in message
...
>
>> How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
>but
>> I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
>well.)
>
>Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
>roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
>day, in the right weather conditions.
>
>We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
>here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
>already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.
>
>That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
>see what is recommended...


Thanks for the advice. I'll actually be having approximately 20 different
species of bamboo on the property and proper care and feeding of the beast
already includes containing it. :-)

I use a 30" deep bamboo barrior to enclose the bamboo, plus a regiment of
yearly thinning.

I've seen a lot of people have it take over their yards and most bamboo can
actually come up through a 6" thick asphalt road.

James, Seattle

[RainLover]

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 13:39:41 -0500, Mark Bannister
> wrote:

>FYI: there are varieties of bamboo called "clumping" that do not spread.
>The only way I now of to get rid of bamboo involves a shovel and lots of
>sweat.

I absolutely LOVE running bamboo!!! :-)

It's beautiful when it's thinned out properly (more forest-like than
bush-like) plus the added advantage of being able to sell some back to
nurseries for more plants!

James, Seattle



>
>Gareee© wrote:
>> "RainLover" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
>>
>> but
>>
>>>I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
>>
>> well.)
>>
>> Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
>> roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
>> day, in the right weather conditions.
>>
>> We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
>> here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
>> already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.
>>
>> That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
>> see what is recommended...
>>
>>

[Mike Patterson]

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:13:01 -0700, RainLover
> wrote:

>On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:09:05 -0400, "Gareee©" >
>wrote:
>
>>"RainLover" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>> How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
>>but
>>> I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
>>well.)
>>
>>Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
>>roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
>>day, in the right weather conditions.
>>
>>We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
>>here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
>>already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.
>>
>>That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
>>see what is recommended...
>
>
>Thanks for the advice. I'll actually be having approximately 20 different
>species of bamboo on the property and proper care and feeding of the beast
>already includes containing it. :-)
>
>I use a 30" deep bamboo barrior to enclose the bamboo, plus a regiment of
>yearly thinning.
>
>I've seen a lot of people have it take over their yards and most bamboo can
>actually come up through a 6" thick asphalt road.
>
>James, Seattle

Wow. I'm impressed.

I want to plant some bamboo here in GA, was planning to plant it in a
30-gallon plastic washtub separated from other plants by 4-5 feet in
all directions, do you think that setup is adequate to contain it?

TIA
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody. I should have been more specific..."

[Gareee©]

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:13:01 -0700, RainLover
> > wrote:

> I want to plant some bamboo here in GA, was planning to plant it in a
> 30-gallon plastic washtub separated from other plants by 4-5 feet in
> all directions, do you think that setup is adequate to contain it?

Hmm... bamboo has been known to push into garages, and push through concrete
driveways... Hmmmm.....


--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Mike Patterson]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:36:33 -0400, "Gareee©"
> wrote:

>"Mike Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:13:01 -0700, RainLover
>> > wrote:
>
>> I want to plant some bamboo here in GA, was planning to plant it in a
>> 30-gallon plastic washtub separated from other plants by 4-5 feet in
>> all directions, do you think that setup is adequate to contain it?
>
>Hmm... bamboo has been known to push into garages, and push through concrete
>driveways... Hmmmm.....

Yabbut, my impression is that it exerts force seeking water sources,
I'm thinking that going sideways through an inert plastic wall it
would rather go up & over, where I'll see it. (That's how I "contain"
my Bermuda grass lawn.)

Or not... :-)

That's why I was asking the OP who seems to have some experience with
it.

Now I'm contemplating a double-walled 1/4" stainless steel drum with
hydrochloric acid in the void between the walls...and an electrified
mesh grid dome over the top so I can see the pretty plants.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody. I should have been more specific..."

[Mark Bannister]

Gareee© wrote:
> "Mike Patterson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:13:01 -0700, RainLover
> wrote:
>
>
>>I want to plant some bamboo here in GA, was planning to plant it in a
>>30-gallon plastic washtub separated from other plants by 4-5 feet in
>>all directions, do you think that setup is adequate to contain it?
>
>
> Hmm... bamboo has been known to push into garages, and push through concrete
> driveways... Hmmmm.....
>
>

I think it was Heidlelberg Zoo (maybe not, anyway some zoo somewhere,
sometime, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away) that we saw bamboo escaping
and making sidewalks almost impassible by pushing it up and sending up
nice, sharp pointy growth. It was going underneath as well and invading
some other exhibit by passing under a concrete wall.

[Gareee©]

"Mark Bannister" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I think it was Heidlelberg Zoo (maybe not, anyway some zoo somewhere,
> sometime, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away) that we saw bamboo escaping
> and making sidewalks almost impassible by pushing it up and sending up
> nice, sharp pointy growth. It was going underneath as well and invading
> some other exhibit by passing under a concrete wall.
>

It's extremely aggressive. When I was working at Disney's Animal Kingdom, we
saw some species that were supposedly "containable" grow about a foot a DAY!
(Disney created a great waste water recycling system, but didn't create
cutoffs for smaller areas. The Bamboo was getting watered in the wee hours,
and was rampant.)

Fortunately, they poured VERY thick concrete planters/walkways, and it could
not go beyond it's planter, since that's all the soil there was.

Do some web searching, and you'll find horror story after horror story from
people who added some bamboo, and thought they could contain it. (I ran
across many yesterday, when searching for bamboo removal.)

--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

Don't give up on bamboo. There are very many varities that are NON-RUNNING.
There are CLUMPING Bamboos that are just fine. Do some research before you
give up on bamboo. I have a Clumping Variety in the same spot for 5 years
and hasn't grown anymore than a regular clumping ornamental grass. I also
have a running bamboo ...LOL That's another story. {:O) Thanks Mike
"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> "Mark Bannister" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > I think it was Heidlelberg Zoo (maybe not, anyway some zoo somewhere,
> > sometime, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away) that we saw bamboo escaping
> > and making sidewalks almost impassible by pushing it up and sending up
> > nice, sharp pointy growth. It was going underneath as well and invading
> > some other exhibit by passing under a concrete wall.
> >
>
> It's extremely aggressive. When I was working at Disney's Animal Kingdom,
we
> saw some species that were supposedly "containable" grow about a foot a
DAY!
> (Disney created a great waste water recycling system, but didn't create
> cutoffs for smaller areas. The Bamboo was getting watered in the wee
hours,
> and was rampant.)
>
> Fortunately, they poured VERY thick concrete planters/walkways, and it
could
> not go beyond it's planter, since that's all the soil there was.
>
> Do some web searching, and you'll find horror story after horror story
from
> people who added some bamboo, and thought they could contain it. (I ran
> across many yesterday, when searching for bamboo removal.)
>
> --
> Gareee©
> Homepage:
> http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
> Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!
>
>

[Bern Muller]

"RainLover" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,

>
> While I would love to have koi, I have every predator known to mankind
around
> my house and may let the frogs move in if they see fit and leave it at
that.
> Because it's going to be a 'gallery' type setting, nets and other
deterrents
> would be a little unsitely.

I think fish of any kind are a benefit, as they eat stuff in the pond
including insect larvae, in addition to looking interesting. I have a bunch
of goldfish in my naturalistic pond, and don't have to feed them all summer.
They thrive and multiply. I suggest you get cheap feeder goldfish, and
replace as needed if predators strike.

> How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
but
> I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
well.)
> Even so, the sun will rule.

I have no filter at all. The water is a little murky, but looks perfect in a
natural setting with the plants. The fish are visible. If you keep organic
material down, a lot of filtration is not really needed unless you want
unnaturally crystal clear water. If your emphasis is fish, get a filter. If
your emphasis is plants, I'd say a filter is optional.

>
> Should it be 'formal' or 'natural' looking?

Depends on your setting and the type of sculpture you mean to show. You are
the artist, and can best make that call.

> Should I use a rubber liner? Concrete? Clay?

We have a butyl rubber liner that has been in place for over 20 years
without leaks. In Michigan with very hot summers, and very cold winters.

Good Luck!

>
>
>

[RainLover]

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:28:31 -0400, Mike Patterson
> wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:13:01 -0700, RainLover
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:09:05 -0400, "Gareee©" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"RainLover" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>> How large of a filter system will I need? (currently it's in direct sun,
>>>but
>>>> I'm planning on a hill around part of the pond and bamboo plantings as
>>>well.)
>>>
>>>Isolate the Bamboo somehow, otherwise it'll just take over everything. It's
>>>roots go down almost 2 feet, and it can actually also grow almost 2 feet a
>>>day, in the right weather conditions.
>>>
>>>We're looking at trying to remove a bamboo grove that is on our new property
>>>here. We cut about a 5 ft by 20-30 ft swath out last fall, and it's mostly
>>>already grown back, with 12 foot tall shoots.
>>>
>>>That's actually on my schedule today.. web search for bamboo removal, and
>>>see what is recommended...
>>
>>
>>Thanks for the advice. I'll actually be having approximately 20 different
>>species of bamboo on the property and proper care and feeding of the beast
>>already includes containing it. :-)
>>
>>I use a 30" deep bamboo barrior to enclose the bamboo, plus a regiment of
>>yearly thinning.
>>
>>I've seen a lot of people have it take over their yards and most bamboo can
>>actually come up through a 6" thick asphalt road.
>>
>>James, Seattle
>
>Wow. I'm impressed.
>
>I want to plant some bamboo here in GA, was planning to plant it in a
>30-gallon plastic washtub separated from other plants by 4-5 feet in
>all directions, do you think that setup is adequate to contain it?
>

A plastic washtub may be just fine. It depends on the species of bamboo you
decide to go with. I would stick with something that only grew about 10' high
(some grows up to 60')... the main reason is to give the roots (rhizomes
actually) some room to grow.

If you use it and see something pop up in a few years, just dig up all the
rhizomes between the tub and the new growth and rethink your plan...

James, Seattle

www.jameskelseystudios.com