Few odd Questions Any help appreciated (pond/water couorse building/sturgeon) (UK) [Archive]

Lostin1999

June 14th 04, 03:55 PM

Hi all..

Newbie posting here for first time (please be gentle)

First off, I've just built a 1000 Gallon pond (not bad considering my garden
is so small) but I want to have a water feature flowing into it. However
all the ready made Water courses are wrong shape/too big/small, so I got to
thinking about expanding foam and liner, making my own... Has anyone done
this before?? Will it be better to paint the expanding foam with a rubber
compound pond sealant paint? Or cover with a liner? Its not gonna be too
huge and will be well supported.. But the fence behind the pond is VERY
boring to look at.

This pond WILL be populated with fish (koi, Shibunkins (sp) and Sturgeon
amongst possible other additions.. (blue orfe seem to be a very likely
addition).

Now to another Question.. I have some sturgeon (3 off) and the other
evening I went out to the garden about 11 pm (pitch dark) and the sturgeon
were sticking there whole heads out of the water and making a grunting
sound?? This has me worried (they are 2' long each) and are at present in
an holding tank (old bath tub) while the pond is sorted. (bath tub having a
3000 gallon filtration system running in it to make sure water stays clean
and clear.(including a 15 watt UV clarifier))

pond will be ready for population (excluding the "feature") in a week but
the feature will be a removable item so can be made separately from the
pond!

sorry for the long post, but thought the details MAY be relevant

Any help and advice offered will be most helpful..

Lost

k conover

June 14th 04, 05:52 PM

All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
Kirsten
"Lostin1999" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all..
>
> Newbie posting here for first time (please be gentle)
>
> First off, I've just built a 1000 Gallon pond (not bad considering my
garden
> is so small) but I want to have a water feature flowing into it. However
> all the ready made Water courses are wrong shape/too big/small, so I got
to
> thinking about expanding foam and liner, making my own... Has anyone done
> this before?? Will it be better to paint the expanding foam with a rubber
> compound pond sealant paint? Or cover with a liner? Its not gonna be too
> huge and will be well supported.. But the fence behind the pond is VERY
> boring to look at.
>
> This pond WILL be populated with fish (koi, Shibunkins (sp) and Sturgeon
> amongst possible other additions.. (blue orfe seem to be a very likely
> addition).
>
> Now to another Question.. I have some sturgeon (3 off) and the other
> evening I went out to the garden about 11 pm (pitch dark) and the sturgeon
> were sticking there whole heads out of the water and making a grunting
> sound?? This has me worried (they are 2' long each) and are at present
in
> an holding tank (old bath tub) while the pond is sorted. (bath tub having
a
> 3000 gallon filtration system running in it to make sure water stays clean
> and clear.(including a 15 watt UV clarifier))
>
> pond will be ready for population (excluding the "feature") in a week but
> the feature will be a removable item so can be made separately from the
> pond!
>
> sorry for the long post, but thought the details MAY be relevant
>
> Any help and advice offered will be most helpful..
>
> Lost
>
>

Benign Vanilla

June 14th 04, 06:11 PM

"k conover" > wrote in message
...
> All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
> Kirsten
<snip>

A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this is
a rule thumb, and nothing more.

BV.

k conover

June 14th 04, 06:23 PM

I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner of a
major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to thrive
(live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should be
in a larger pond.
Kirsten
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "k conover" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
> > Kirsten
> <snip>
>
> A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
> Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
> be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this
is
> a rule thumb, and nothing more.
>
> BV.
>
>

Benign Vanilla

June 14th 04, 06:37 PM

"k conover" > wrote in message
...
> I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner of
a
> major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to
thrive
> (live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should be
> in a larger pond.

<snip>

Realistically, you could raise Koi in your kitchen sink, if you kept the
water clean and free of toxins. The larger bodies of water that we discuss
for Koi, a la the 1000+100 gallon rule, is to allow for buffering and
chemistry swings. A spawning's worth of Ammonia is much more toxic to a fish
500 gallons then to a fish in 1000 gallons.

The 1000+100 gallon rule provides a rule of thumb that assumes you do not
have perfect conditions, perfect filtration, etc.

BV.

k conover

June 14th 04, 07:48 PM

Having read many of your posts, I know that you're a pond expert, and I
don't want to start a flame war, but you could raise a child in a closet if
you wanted as well, but if you care about the Koi as a living being and not
just a water ornament, you would want it to be happy and give it plenty of
space in which to swim.
Kirsten
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "k conover" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner
of
> a
> > major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to
> thrive
> > (live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should
be
> > in a larger pond.
>
> <snip>
>
> Realistically, you could raise Koi in your kitchen sink, if you kept the
> water clean and free of toxins. The larger bodies of water that we discuss
> for Koi, a la the 1000+100 gallon rule, is to allow for buffering and
> chemistry swings. A spawning's worth of Ammonia is much more toxic to a
fish
> 500 gallons then to a fish in 1000 gallons.
>
> The 1000+100 gallon rule provides a rule of thumb that assumes you do not
> have perfect conditions, perfect filtration, etc.
>
> BV.
>
>

joe

June 14th 04, 08:22 PM

On 6/14/04 10:37 AM, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:

> Realistically, you could raise Koi in your kitchen sink, if you kept the
> water clean and free of toxins. The larger bodies of water that we discuss
> for Koi, a la the 1000+100 gallon rule, is to allow for buffering and
> chemistry swings. A spawning's worth of Ammonia is much more toxic to a fish
> 500 gallons then to a fish in 1000 gallons.
>
> The 1000+100 gallon rule provides a rule of thumb that assumes you do not
> have perfect conditions, perfect filtration, etc.

And if I may humbly add, anything over 1,000 gallons is also more likely to
provide an adequate swimming depth for Koi, which to my mind would have to
be a minimum of three feet.

Joe,
(who only has gold fish, one Oscar and a turtle.)

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joe

June 14th 04, 08:25 PM

I think that's what BV was suggesting - that you want the fish to be happy.

Joe

On 6/14/04 11:48 AM, "k conover" wrote:

> Having read many of your posts, I know that you're a pond expert, and I
> don't want to start a flame war, but you could raise a child in a closet if
> you wanted as well, but if you care about the Koi as a living being and not
> just a water ornament, you would want it to be happy and give it plenty of
> space in which to swim.

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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Benign Vanilla

June 14th 04, 09:22 PM

"k conover" > wrote in message
...
> Having read many of your posts, I know that you're a pond expert, and I
> don't want to start a flame war, but you could raise a child in a closet
if
> you wanted as well, but if you care about the Koi as a living being and
not
> just a water ornament, you would want it to be happy and give it plenty of
> space in which to swim.
<snip>

I am by no means a pond expert, but thanks for the compliment.

As for the topic, I think you are misunderstanding me. I agree with
everything you said which is why I used the 1000+100 rule when I implemented
my pond. I wanted the pigs to have plenty of room to swim and enjoy life.

BV.

June 14th 04, 10:03 PM

I have Koi..never have followed that rule... BUT Useing the rule
described below you are saying that you need 1000 gallons of water to
succesfully keep one KOI Healthy??? I disagree.... MIKE
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "k conover" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
> > Kirsten
> <snip>
>
> A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
> Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
> be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this
is
> a rule thumb, and nothing more.
>
> BV.
>
>

Newbie Bill

June 15th 04, 07:28 AM

I too am very new to all of this. I read a very interesting newbie article
once which said "Figure out how many fish your pond can support - then start
with 1/10th that." Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
probably overstated.
I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
bigger pond and altogether different issues.

BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.

Bill Brister
Austin, Texas

Benign Vanilla

June 15th 04, 02:38 PM

> wrote in message ...
> I have Koi..never have followed that rule... BUT Useing the rule
> described below you are saying that you need 1000 gallons of water to
> succesfully keep one KOI Healthy??? I disagree.... MIKE
<snip>

What I am saying is that you can keep a Koi alive in your kitchen sink with
the proper filtration. BUT, since none of have our ponds in a labratory with
carefuly monitoring filtering, it is good to give some buffer space to
prevent large swings in the water parameters. The 1000+100 rule is a good
rule of thumb for hosting a pond full of Koi, simply because it provides an
easy to remember number, and enough water to properly buffer spikes in water
chemistry. In addition, as Sam pointed out, 1000 gallons will often result
in a size and shape pond that gives the Koi room to move.

BV.

[email protected]

June 15th 04, 05:11 PM

I would say that ponding is mostly science. as in we know what will kill koi and try
to avoid that. science tells us how to be very conservative when starting out.
what water parameters are needed for healthy fish.
how much water, depth etc. is needed for stable pond temperature and "buffer" for
when/if things go wrong. in the south the problem is heat, in the north it is ice.
aeration, filtration.. why it is needed, what it does.
quarantine and why that is important.
water and lots of it is the very most important component of keeping fish. if the
water can be kept pristine keeping fish is a snap (well unless there is a predator or
somebody dumps poison in or around the pond).
art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
Ingrid

"Newbie Bill" > wrote:
Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
>Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
>frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
>will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
>cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
>cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
>your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
>and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
>feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
>a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
>I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
>just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
>suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
>disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
>probably overstated.
>I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
>you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
>rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
>the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
>out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
>bigger pond and altogether different issues.
>
>BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
>anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
>Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.
>
>Bill Brister
>Austin, Texas
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ka30P

June 15th 04, 05:40 PM

Even though there isn't much natural about
our ponds - they are made with liner and filled with city water for the most
part - it is still a good idea to look to Mother Nature sometimes.

Mother Nature provides lots of water for relatively few fish, she lets the fish
find food on their own (no tasty koi kibble dropped from the sky), she does
water changes, she filters with plants, she doesn't freak out over algae,
she encourages predators and ignores the pond for the most part.
Every once in a while she kills off too many fish with a hard winter, sends a
flood to clean things out or fills in the pond with cattails and willows and
starts over someplace else (you can do that with a whole planet to play with).

Mother Nature doesn't run her water through UV (she has the sun at her beck and
call), she hates chemical treatments, she doesn't want to zap her creatures
with shock fences, thinks fish chow tastes nasty and would never think of dying
her ponds...

So Mother Nature has a few hints for us. Not that we'll pay that much
attention. It is too much fun to feed the fish and we love to fuss over our
pets but do keep her in mind everytime you get the urge to get too retentive
about the pond and open a beer, zip some wine or have your morning coffee by
the pond instead.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Benign Vanilla

June 15th 04, 07:01 PM

> wrote in message
...
> I would say that ponding is mostly science.
<snip>
I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.

> art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
<snip>

Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I have
read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.

BV.

Newbie Bill

June 16th 04, 07:56 AM

Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of. If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise) 'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong. So I will just make 2 quick
comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is as
simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer to
2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.
Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets not
being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
Have Fun!
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > I would say that ponding is mostly science.
> <snip>
> I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.
>
> > art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with
it.
> <snip>
>
> Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I
have
> read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
> for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.
>
> BV.
>
>

Benign Vanilla

June 16th 04, 02:00 PM

"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
> totally unaware of.

Yeah, we're pretty close knit. rec.ponds is one of the few usenet groups
that is not plaqued with BS. Although, we have our moments.

> If someone would care to email me privately I would
> appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise)
'observation'
> and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to
offend
> anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong.

Where's the fun in that.

> So I will just make 2 quick
> comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
> balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
> parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is
as
> simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
> them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer
to
> 2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.

Which was my point. Sometimes 1+1=2 when you follow the rules. But we all
break them and usually end up getting 2, but not necissarily by adding 1 and
1.

> Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
> this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets
not
> being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
> are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
<snip>

Ponding is not an exact science, as evidenced by the fact that there are no
two ponds alike. No two sets of conditions. On rec.ponds, for the most part,
we offer anecdotal solutions to ponders problems. We are typically careful
not hand down knowledge as gospel, as we know that what works for 1 may not
work for another.

BV.

Gareee©

June 16th 04, 02:13 PM

"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
> totally unaware of. If someone would care to email me privately I would
> appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise)
'observation'
> and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to
offend
> anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong.

I think you are reading far more into things then there really are. This is
just a big group of helpful people who enjoy making ponds, and sharing their
experiences, tips, n tricks.

No political agendas, no subterfuge, just an occasional ad type post from
some of the online pond supply places, which are pretty useful, actually.

I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's been
off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I forgot to
join.. ;)

--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

Ka30P

June 16th 04, 02:22 PM

A lot of answers, and experience, depends on the pond.

I have a messy, wildlife type pond. My main goal is to see how many critters I
can attract and have been known to be thrilled to pieces over carnivorous
bladderwort and mayfly larvae.

Some folks have koi ponds. They actually know the names of the various types of
koi and can pronounce them. Koi have been called living jewels and they live up
to their names. Keeping koi is very exacting and watching your water parameters
is so important to keep them healthy and thriving.

Others are more plant oriented. They know the names of their lilies (unlike moi
who knows pink, white and yellow ;-) And they can actually grow
lotus (sigh, another goal I have yet to achieve).
And they can tell you the latin names of all the other pond plants. Keeping
plants healthy and thriving is a different operation too.

Some ponders combine all three. That's a juggling act! And combining all three
is again another specific set of skills.

Some of us like birds in our ponds,
others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the pond,
others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the pond,
others are coffee addicts
(raising hand).

We try to stay away from politics... and we usually succeed.
We sure would like you to hang out with us.
Besides we haven't explained PORG to you yet...

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

June 16th 04, 02:23 PM

Hi, Everyone has there own opinions and "methods" when it comes to
anything,including ornamental pond husbandry. First thing before I even
started a pond project I already had many years of keeping ornamental fish
in aquariums. I was way ahead of the "game"...then I did research for about
2 years before I even attempted starting my pond project. Other than the
basics of digging...liner(rubber roofing) and filter construction I have
found that my successes has been easy and that pond keeping isn't a big
deal. The pond/ponds I have are pretty much take care of themselves as long
as I do water changes,don't overfeed, don't crowd the fish etc. Everyone is
here to help the "newbie". They just have to glean the info and use what
they may think will work for them ,then tune them to their own ponding
situations. Thanks Mike
"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
> totally unaware of.

June 16th 04, 02:41 PM

Benign Vanilla

June 16th 04, 03:08 PM

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's been
> off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I forgot
to
> join.. ;)
<snip>

The first rule about rec.ponds, is Don't talk about rec.ponds.

BV.

Lostin1999

June 16th 04, 04:37 PM

Hi again

I've read all the responses, (most don't actually answer my questions, but
ill get to that later..)

It seems many people feel my pond is too small for koi, this is NOT a
problem for me, im quite happy to have other breeds of fish.. However I
will mention that Oasis (pond Product manufacturing company) produce a 223
litre pond Called Koi. that anyone would assume should be big enough for
Koi! (and i know 3 people with one and several Koi within (for several
years.) (6 + years in one case)

Now i have already kept fish and ponds for a long time (although my biggest
pond to date was only about 100 gallons (and was a nature pond (about to be
recreated on a larger scale)) (ok im only in me 30's so some have kept foir
much longer than me). this is where all the fish i already have are coming
from

this is my first onamental pond, and its been 4 years in the planning, im
not some ooh a pond would be nice, and 3 days later its done.. 6 months
later its gone again..

please could someone pass advice on the other questions i posed (expanding
foam to make a fountain base, and the sturgeon (who havent done it
since.. ))

Lost

RainLover

June 16th 04, 04:50 PM

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:08:54 -0400, "Benign Vanilla"
> wrote:

>
>"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
>> I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's been
>> off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I forgot
>to
>> join.. ;)
><snip>
>
>The first rule about rec.ponds, is Don't talk about rec.ponds.

The SECOND rules is not talking about the rule about not talking about the
rec.ponds... didn't you get the secret-circle memo, BV???

James, Seattle

Newbie Bill

June 16th 04, 04:57 PM

Good Morning Group! Thanks so much for being gentle to the newbie
questioning the thread. I thought for sure someone was going to give me the
ol "Jane you ignorant slut." line (SNL):) Lest there be any question I
think this group is just flat out terrific, both for the knowledge gap they
try to fill on a constant basis and the people in general. I am a goofball
but it pleases me to think in some very small way I am a part of it. Yes,
in trying to research specific subjects I have come upon several groups that
were just innundated with immature banter. Here the banter seems most often
to be whether you drop that WH into the pond with your left hand or right
and what temperature the beer in the other hand should be:) I have met
several local ponders and they have been good people. My pond is filled
almost exclusively with plants that they have thinned/divided. Several have
droped by to see 'my problem' first hand. But the local message board often
is not very helpful, because most of the 'pros' there often will not reply.
I think they dont want to end each message by saying 'this is what worked
for me, you may have to modify it somewhat for your pond' - or - 'I dont
know but my guess would be....' I probably was just overreacting to a
misinterpreted inference that if you do such and such you WILL get this
result. My experience has been rarely is there a clear cut, cant miss
solution. But there are some clear cut if you do such and such you will
kill your fish rules. It is frustrating because every time a fish dies I
feel VERY badly it was probably at the hands of my ignorance, and yet I am
trying so hard to do good.
You guys are great! Thank you, thank you, thank you.............
Isle b'bac
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

ps Inquiring minds have wondered what this secret handshake porgies thing
is:)

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> A lot of answers, and experience, depends on the pond.
>
> I have a messy, wildlife type pond. My main goal is to see how many
critters I
> can attract and have been known to be thrilled to pieces over carnivorous
> bladderwort and mayfly larvae.
>
> Some folks have koi ponds. They actually know the names of the various
types of
> koi and can pronounce them. Koi have been called living jewels and they
live up
> to their names. Keeping koi is very exacting and watching your water
parameters
> is so important to keep them healthy and thriving.
>
> Others are more plant oriented. They know the names of their lilies
(unlike moi
> who knows pink, white and yellow ;-) And they can actually grow
> lotus (sigh, another goal I have yet to achieve).
> And they can tell you the latin names of all the other pond plants.
Keeping
> plants healthy and thriving is a different operation too.
>
> Some ponders combine all three. That's a juggling act! And combining all
three
> is again another specific set of skills.
>
> Some of us like birds in our ponds,
> others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
> frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the pond,
> others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the
pond,
> others are coffee addicts
> (raising hand).
>
> We try to stay away from politics... and we usually succeed.
> We sure would like you to hang out with us.
> Besides we haven't explained PORG to you yet...
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Gail Futoran

June 16th 04, 04:57 PM

"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this
group that I am
> totally unaware of.

No more than in any other newsgroup I've
ever been in. :)

[snips ahoy]

> Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just
saw something in
> this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as
simple as you vets not
> being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid
at first so we
> are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble
that remark.

I've seen the same thing in the aquaria newsgroup
I frequent. Response to newbie posts tend to fall into
one of three broad categories:

1) Helpful but very very brief - "do water tests"

2) helpful with some explanation - "do water tests
like kh, pH, nitrates, so we can advise you better"

3) helpful with a chemistry degree - "do water
tests because if zf3 is higher than gl15 then
tmn0004 will be reduced signicantly below the
optimal j3e6p4 level for plants unless you stock
low light plants then the optimal p56sub8 level
will be *increased* unless your water has
3ppx salt..."

For newbies (I consider myself barely above
that level), generally the first two types of
explanation are most useful. I now know
enough about aquaria (and ponds) to prefer
category 2 explanations, but don't have the
patience (or education) to slog through most
of the category 3 explanations, although I
recognize their helpfulness to many.

But that's what some of the regulars here
were referring to, IMO. No secret agenda,
as someone else pointed out, just an awareness
that we all have different experiences and
different (current) knowledge levels and what
might be useful to you might be mind bogglingly
obscure or insulting baby talk to someone else.

Gail
near San Antonio TX

Gail Futoran

June 16th 04, 04:57 PM

"Ka30P" > wrote

Snips to clarification points:

> Some of us think snails are neat in the pond,
> others prefer them with garlic and butter.

Um - both work for me. Although I'm not
sure I would eat pond or aquarium snails...

Some of us drink beer by the pond,
> others are coffee addicts
> (raising hand).

Raising both hands since I do both. <g>

Gail

Ka30P

June 16th 04, 05:15 PM

Newbie Bill wrote >>ps Inquiring minds have wondered what this secret handshake
porgies thing
is:)<<

Ah, ;-) a chance to post the PORG dogma!

You are a PORG,
or more accurately, you have been porged.
Rec.ponders have been tasked to go out and
assimilate lawns into ponds. Resistance is futile.
(If you are a Star Trek, Next Generation fan
you'll recognize we unashamedly ripped off the
term Borg (the half machine, half human beings
who absorb any race they come across into the
Borg Collective) and assimilated it unto our own selves.)
Your mission, and you must accept it (remember
resistance is futile), is to go forth and assimilate
your friends' and neighbors' lawns into ponds.
This is the PORG motto, creed, agenda, dogma, rules of the road, law, platform
and way of life.
The secret handshake... the memo got lost with the German Shepherd sized
Bullfrog whose orgins are now lost in the mists of rec.ponds time.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

joe

June 16th 04, 05:31 PM

Ooooh, that's good. Also a pretty good, albeit odd concept, mvie.

Joe

On 6/16/04 7:08 AM, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:

>
> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
>> I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's been
>> off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I forgot
> to
>> join.. ;)
> <snip>
>
> The first rule about rec.ponds, is Don't talk about rec.ponds.
>
> BV.
>
>

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Newbie Bill

June 16th 04, 07:37 PM

One of the first things I noticed about 'the group' was an absence of
levity. Most of you must have taken the day off:)
Bill

"joe" > wrote in message
...
> Ooooh, that's good. Also a pretty good, albeit odd concept, mvie.
>
> Joe
>
> On 6/16/04 7:08 AM, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:
>
> >
> > "Gareee©" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> >> I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's
been
> >> off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I
forgot
> > to
> >> join.. ;)
> > <snip>
> >
> > The first rule about rec.ponds, is Don't talk about rec.ponds.
> >
> > BV.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Ka30P

June 16th 04, 07:42 PM

Bill, we've backed off on BV for a while after the great pond dying experiment.
This blue water incident coming so closely on the heels of the orange water
drama, well, sometimes you just have to give him time to recover.

Bill wrote >>One of the first things I noticed about 'the group' was an absence
of
levity. Most of you must have taken the day off:)>>
kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Newbie Bill

June 16th 04, 07:46 PM

Ahah - That was probably the feeling I couldnt put my finger on in reading
the thread. I have never been assimilated before. Believe me I am. I have
already gotten several wide eyed looks of astonishment when I have voice my
vision of someday having a bigger or more ponds, bogs etc. BTW - 'swentlop'
or did everyone not get that message.
Bill

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Newbie Bill wrote >>ps Inquiring minds have wondered what this secret
handshake
> porgies thing
> is:)<<
>
> Ah, ;-) a chance to post the PORG dogma!
>
>
> You are a PORG,
> or more accurately, you have been porged.
> Rec.ponders have been tasked to go out and
> assimilate lawns into ponds. Resistance is futile.
> (If you are a Star Trek, Next Generation fan
> you'll recognize we unashamedly ripped off the
> term Borg (the half machine, half human beings
> who absorb any race they come across into the
> Borg Collective) and assimilated it unto our own selves.)
> Your mission, and you must accept it (remember
> resistance is futile), is to go forth and assimilate
> your friends' and neighbors' lawns into ponds.
> This is the PORG motto, creed, agenda, dogma, rules of the road, law,
platform
> and way of life.
> The secret handshake... the memo got lost with the German Shepherd sized
> Bullfrog whose orgins are now lost in the mists of rec.ponds time.
>
>
>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Newbie Bill

June 16th 04, 08:06 PM

Tooooooo funny. I must seriously confess I did not read any of those posts.
I have had 2 fish die in the last 6 weeks and 5 since I started. I
definitely didnt want to know anything about dying experiments. What can I
say - English was never my strongest subject.
Bill

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Bill, we've backed off on BV for a while after the great pond dying
experiment.
> This blue water incident coming so closely on the heels of the orange
water
> drama, well, sometimes you just have to give him time to recover.
>
>
>
> Bill wrote >>One of the first things I noticed about 'the group' was an
absence
> of
> levity. Most of you must have taken the day off:)>>
> kathy :-)
> <A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Benign Vanilla

June 16th 04, 08:24 PM

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Bill, we've backed off on BV for a while after the great pond dying
experiment.
> This blue water incident coming so closely on the heels of the orange
water
<snip>

BTW, in next year's shareholders documents you will see a motion to rename
Shareholders Pond to Rainbow Pond, so don't be suprised and shocked when you
see it.

BV.

Susan H. Simko

June 16th 04, 09:22 PM

Ka30P wrote:

> Some of us like birds in our ponds,
> others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
> frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the pond,
> others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the pond,
> others are coffee addicts
> (raising hand).

Thank you Kathy. Well put. *smile* I'm in the "coffee by the pond,
absolutely thrilled with anything willing to take up residence, trying
to keep it as natural as an artificial pond can get crowd, thrilled to
find the birds drinking out of it, spent an hour on Saturday watching a
dragonfly emerge from it's larval state, and looking for some native
salamanders or newts I can purchase for my pond". Looking around, I
think I'm alone now and not the only one in her or his own group. *grin*

Susan
shsimko[@]duke[.]edu

Ka30P

June 16th 04, 09:42 PM

Hi Susan,
>>to keep it as natural as an artificial pond can get<<
When the watergardening labs and I go walking along the river we carry along
plastic bags.
Now this is for doggy business that they leave along the path but also for neat
stuff we find along the way. We bring home aquatic weeds left along the shore
line, interesting grass seeds, rocks (especially those with rings around them),
aquatic bugs if we can catch them, animal skulls and feathers for zoology
daughter, driftwood - most of it goes in or by the ponds.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

gunnar

June 16th 04, 11:43 PM

welcome to the habit susan. i live directly in center of city of warwick but
step behind my fence and find yourself in a acre of natures beauty.i just
sitting out watching world go by
"Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
...
> Ka30P wrote:
>
> > Some of us like birds in our ponds,
> > others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
> > frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the
pond,
> > others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the
pond,
> > others are coffee addicts
> > (raising hand).
>
> Thank you Kathy. Well put. *smile* I'm in the "coffee by the pond,
> absolutely thrilled with anything willing to take up residence, trying
> to keep it as natural as an artificial pond can get crowd, thrilled to
> find the birds drinking out of it, spent an hour on Saturday watching a
> dragonfly emerge from it's larval state, and looking for some native
> salamanders or newts I can purchase for my pond". Looking around, I
> think I'm alone now and not the only one in her or his own group. *grin*
>
> Susan
> shsimko[@]duke[.]edu
>

bluegill phil

June 17th 04, 12:56 AM

Ive had water in my 3600gal for over 4 months. Its had 100 fingerling
bluegill perch and 200~300 fathead minnows for 2 months. The minnow
death rate stableized last week. Up until then i lost minnows everyday
about 75 to 100 overall due to unaged water. It appears that waiting
until the water has had at least 1 algea bloom before stocking is good
advice. The 2 2' sturgeons you have will be lucky to make it to August
in a brand new pond. You may want to leave them in the bath for awhile
they would be Ok because Ive seen that size (1) in a 55gal aquarium
Oh yeah Ive only lost 2 bluegills but thats because their the
toughest fish around.
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:37:47 +0100, "Lostin1999"
> wrote:

>Hi again
>
>I've read all the responses, (most don't actually answer my questions, but
>ill get to that later..)
>
>It seems many people feel my pond is too small for koi, this is NOT a
>problem for me, im quite happy to have other breeds of fish.. However I
>will mention that Oasis (pond Product manufacturing company) produce a 223
>litre pond Called Koi. that anyone would assume should be big enough for
>Koi! (and i know 3 people with one and several Koi within (for several
>years.) (6 + years in one case)
>
>Now i have already kept fish and ponds for a long time (although my biggest
>pond to date was only about 100 gallons (and was a nature pond (about to be
>recreated on a larger scale)) (ok im only in me 30's so some have kept foir
>much longer than me). this is where all the fish i already have are coming
>from
>
>this is my first onamental pond, and its been 4 years in the planning, im
>not some ooh a pond would be nice, and 3 days later its done.. 6 months
>later its gone again..
>
>please could someone pass advice on the other questions i posed (expanding
>foam to make a fountain base, and the sturgeon (who havent done it
>since.. ))
>
>Lost
>

Benign Vanilla

June 17th 04, 02:07 PM

"Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
...
> Ka30P wrote:
>
> > Some of us like birds in our ponds,
> > others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
> > frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the
pond,
> > others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the
pond,
> > others are coffee addicts
> > (raising hand).
>
> Thank you Kathy. Well put. *smile* I'm in the "coffee by the pond,
> absolutely thrilled with anything willing to take up residence, trying
> to keep it as natural as an artificial pond can get crowd, thrilled to
> find the birds drinking out of it, spent an hour on Saturday watching a
> dragonfly emerge from it's larval state, and looking for some native
> salamanders or newts I can purchase for my pond". Looking around, I
> think I'm alone now and not the only one in her or his own group. *grin*

No way you are alone! That is awesome. I am completely amazed when new
critters show up at the pond. I even built some shallows to help them get
in.

BV.

Ka30P

June 17th 04, 02:11 PM

Falcor wrote >>PORG, ??? please elaborate<<

Be glad to ;-)
You are a Porg,
or more accurately, you have been porged.
Rec.ponders have been tasked to go out and
assimilate lawns into ponds. Resistance is futile.
(If you are a Star Trek, Next Generation fan
you'll recognize we unashamedly ripped off the
term Borg (the half machine, half human beings
who absorb any race they come across into the
Borg Collective) and assimilated it unto our own selves.)
Your mission, and you must accept it (remember
resistance is futile), is to go forth and assimilate
your friends' and neighbors' lawns into ponds.

kathy :-)
<A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/">Once upon a pond</A>

Anne Lurie

June 17th 04, 10:02 PM

I *think* that the answer to the burning question "what (who?) exactly is
PORG, anyhoo?" may be found in the FAQ for this inestimable* newsgroup:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html

* It's a compliment!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Newbie Bill" > wrote

[snipped]

> ps Inquiring minds have wondered what this secret handshake porgies thing
> is:)

Mosfunland

June 18th 04, 06:03 PM

"The secret handshake... the memo got lost with the German Shepherd sized
Bullfrog whose orgins are now lost in the mists of rec.ponds time."
Ah the handshake....anyone care to add on?

I think it starts out by looking like you are tossing some fishfood into the
pond......then you put your hand up like you are holding a test strip......then
you scoop down like you are pulling (string algae, wh, or pinecones) from the
pond.....

Maureen in Phila (merlot preference)

~ jan JJsPond.us

June 19th 04, 06:58 AM

WELL SAID! ~ jan

>I too am very new to all of this. I read a very interesting newbie article
>once which said "Figure out how many fish your pond can support - then start
>with 1/10th that." Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
>Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
>frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
>will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
>cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
>cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
>your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
>and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
>feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
>a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
>I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
>just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
>suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
>disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
>probably overstated.
>I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
>you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
>rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
>the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
>out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
>bigger pond and altogether different issues.
>
>Bill Brister
>Austin, Texas
>

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

~ jan JJsPond.us

June 19th 04, 07:22 AM

The Borg said:
"We are _Borg_ resistant is futile, you will be assimilated."
The Porg say:
"We are Porg, resistant IS futile, you will be pond-elated."

P - Pond, O - Oriented, R - Recreational, G - Group ~ jan

>PORG, ??? please elaborate
> Falcor

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[email protected]

June 19th 04, 02:00 PM

I dont know about handshake but nobody enters full porgdom without baptism .... 45oF
water with a backwards 1.5 gainer. Ingrid

(Mosfunland) wrote:

>"The secret handshake... the memo got lost with the German Shepherd sized
>Bullfrog whose orgins are now lost in the mists of rec.ponds time."
>Ah the handshake....anyone care to add on?
>
>I think it starts out by looking like you are tossing some fishfood into the
>pond......then you put your hand up like you are holding a test strip......then
>you scoop down like you are pulling (string algae, wh, or pinecones) from the
>pond.....
>
>Maureen in Phila (merlot preference)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[email protected]

June 19th 04, 02:21 PM

It is quite odd but my DH and I did a 1.75 hour drive out into the boonies to go to
the only "Staples" in the area that swore they had an all wood file cabinet (they
didnt of course, but they dont mind lying).
Anyway... we loved a drive in the open spaces. there are certain roads out there
with hills you can almost look forever over rolling hills, fields, woods. then as we
got in closer we hit wave after wave of McMansions all built out in the middle of
former farmers fields. And there was no human person to be seen.
we got back into the city and immediately I see all kinds of people everywhere, life
and excitement everywhere people walking or sitting outside in cafes, walking their
dog. kids playing in the alley. so after dinner at our favorite very lively
bar/restaurant we went back to sit in our very private and quiet 25' x 25' backyard
next to the koi pond with a cup of coffee, fed the fish and relaxed while the sun
went down.
I dont know how it is that I was raised in the country and simply love the energy of
the city so much. Ingrid

"gunnar" > wrote:
>welcome to the habit susan. i live directly in center of city of warwick but
>step behind my fence and find yourself in a acre of natures beauty.i just
>sitting out watching world go by

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[email protected]

June 19th 04, 02:28 PM

yep. you got it. anyone keeps fish in a tank successfully will almost surely be
able to keep em in a pond (well except for the deaths due to predators, the incoming
waves of cooties from birds bathing and dumping in the pond, the occasional spray of
fish killing pesticides). knowing about water quality is the single most important
information, keeping on top of water quality is 99% of keeping fish ... and it is all
science, no art. Ingrid

> wrote:
I already had many years of keeping ornamental fish
>in aquariums.
pond keeping isn't a big>deal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[email protected]

June 19th 04, 02:29 PM

and they also got a 1 gallon bowl called Goldfish. Ingrid

"Lostin1999" > wrote:
Oasis (pond Product manufacturing company) produce a 223
>litre pond Called Koi.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[email protected]

June 19th 04, 05:15 PM

Being a scientist I must see more science in "ponding" and very little art at all.
well except for the colors I use in my veggie filter.
Jo Ann Burke sold expensive fancy GF for 25+ years and came up with a "formula" for
newbie success in keeping GF in aquariums. It went against many if not most of the
"common" wisdoms, like no UGF, no gravel, feed lightly and high quality foods and LOW
stocking levels. Water quality is 99%. Her method is now widely used and
successful.

There is a nearly fool proof formula for a koi pond for newbies as well. Setting up
the pond to optimize water quality is 99% of keeping fish alive .. for those who are
building a pond because they specifically want to keep KOI OR fancy GF.

Those who are building as natural a pond as they can for "wildlife" that is so easy
it needs no formula at all. Dig a hole, line it, put some rocks and gravel around
the edges, plunk down some plants and fill with water. the wildlife will come.

Then there are people who want BOTH a natural pond with "wildlife" AND fish in the
pond. This is MUCH more difficult to achieve, balancing the needs of wildlife and
highly inbred fish. It takes a lot more work and knowledge. I personally think
people who want natural ponds with wildlife should at least start without koi or
fancy GF. Maybe some gambusa or mosquito fish to keep mosquitoes down. or use
mosquito dunks.

People who really want both koi/GF and "natural" are going to have to have it easy.
Net the pond to keep the fish in and the herons out, but that prevents other animals
from getting in and out as well. Do I keep birds out because they carry disease or
do I want them splashing in the fountain? Do I want gin clear water or a natural
pond? Do I want plants in the pond or fish? Most people find the plants getting
whacked by the fish, the fish driving up the waste and getting sick from all the
cooties the wildlife is bringing in. And many treatments are not possible with
plants in the water.

The people on this list seem to have a firm grasp of what the "essentials" are for
natural ponds in general, for fish ponds in general and for balancing their own
particular natural pond with fish. Maybe we need an essentials list that gives
newbies benefit of our knowledge without our having to repeat it all the time?

Ingrid

Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
>>Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
>>frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

June 22nd 04, 01:51 PM

Well said Ingrid and thanks for all the tips past and present. Thanks!!
MIKE
> wrote in message
...
> Being a scientist I must see more science in "ponding" and very little art
at all.
> well except for the colors I use in my veggie filter.
> Jo Ann Burke sold expensive fancy GF for 25+ years and came up with a
"formula" for

[email protected]

June 22nd 04, 05:58 PM

baby bird poopies are often encased and whitish. parent birds pick em up and dump em
away from the nest to keep predators from discovering the nest has babies. Ingrid

> wrote:

>Well said Ingrid and thanks for all the tips past and present. Thanks!!
>MIKE
> wrote in message
...
>> Being a scientist I must see more science in "ponding" and very little art
>at all.
>> well except for the colors I use in my veggie filter.
>> Jo Ann Burke sold expensive fancy GF for 25+ years and came up with a
>"formula" for
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Mary kate

June 23rd 04, 08:23 AM

I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK

Lostin1999

June 23rd 04, 09:53 AM

"Mary kate" > wrote in message
...
> I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
> it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
> we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
> books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
> does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
> answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
> hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
> another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
>

yeah ive been reading Pond and water garden book's for a few years (ever
since the idea first came to me to have a pond (well before the current
"FAD" of ponding)) ive read from Charlie Dimmock to RHS (Royal Horticultural
Society).

for the feature it appears I can use what I like as long as it has a liner
over it.. so the water feature is pretty much sorted (yet to be built, but
plans are afoot!!)

cannot get any answers on the Sterlets, (but I have learned not to call then
Sturgeon (they are too young)) but im assuming it may be I have 2 males and
they are seeking females (the smaller one of the trio at only 8" long will
not be up to maturity for another year..

brings me onto why I got sterlets.. I was told they ate Blanket weed
(string algae to this newsgroup) so promptly bought 4.. (lost one when I
was sorting a pump blockage and accidentally dropped pump into water right
on top of it.. (alas poor fish)) funny how easy some retailers find it to
lie to get a sale (that said I love em now!!)

was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed to
drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and my UV
may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the fuse
was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very lucky
so far)

not putting a uv on new pond (yet) as I need the filter (all new bio media)
to fill with the good bacteria.. using alfagrog now (was on them plastic
things provided with a hoselock box,) but feel new pond will need more than
that. and read loads of good reviews of the Alfagrog stuff. so all is
going well..

as this is my first ornamental pond im being VERY careful..

Lost

Bonnie

June 23rd 04, 01:06 PM

Lostin1999 wrote:
> "Mary kate" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
>>it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
>>we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
>>books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
>>does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
>>answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
>>hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
>>another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
>>
>
>
> yeah ive been reading Pond and water garden book's for a few years (ever
> since the idea first came to me to have a pond (well before the current
> "FAD" of ponding)) ive read from Charlie Dimmock to RHS (Royal Horticultural
> Society).
>
> for the feature it appears I can use what I like as long as it has a liner
> over it.. so the water feature is pretty much sorted (yet to be built, but
> plans are afoot!!)
>
> cannot get any answers on the Sterlets, (but I have learned not to call then
> Sturgeon (they are too young)) but im assuming it may be I have 2 males and
> they are seeking females (the smaller one of the trio at only 8" long will
> not be up to maturity for another year..
>
> brings me onto why I got sterlets.. I was told they ate Blanket weed
> (string algae to this newsgroup) so promptly bought 4.. (lost one when I
> was sorting a pump blockage and accidentally dropped pump into water right
> on top of it.. (alas poor fish)) funny how easy some retailers find it to
> lie to get a sale (that said I love em now!!)
>
> was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed to
> drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and my UV
> may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the fuse
> was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very lucky
> so far)
>
> not putting a uv on new pond (yet) as I need the filter (all new bio media)
> to fill with the good bacteria.. using alfagrog now (was on them plastic
> things provided with a hoselock box,) but feel new pond will need more than
> that. and read loads of good reviews of the Alfagrog stuff. so all is
> going well..
>
> as this is my first ornamental pond im being VERY careful..
>
> Lost
>
>

Hi,

I do know who Charlie Dimmock is and do appreciate her work.
The reason many of your questions weren't answered is that
we don't know the answers. Many of your terms are unknown
to us in the USA. I know nothing of sturgeon nor sterlets,
nor hoselock box, or alfagrog. We need a translator!

--
Bonnie
NJ

Andrew Burgess

June 23rd 04, 03:17 PM

>was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed to
>drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and my UV
>may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the fuse
>was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very lucky
>so far)

It sounds like that may have be a GFCI rather than a fuse but if it wasn't,
consider getting one for when your luck runs out. Less than $10 for an outlet.

There are even extension cords now with GFCI built in if your pond wiring
is more 'creative'.

Benign Vanilla

June 23rd 04, 04:00 PM

Newbie Bill

June 23rd 04, 11:09 PM

Hi Mary Kate - I definitely am a newbie so am hoping I can help smooth off a
few rough edges here, from a slightly more objective point of view. First
of all it has been my observation that many or most of the people here come
with their primary reason being to help others through the mistakes and
experiences they have already encountered - they don't shun them, they are
here for them. Sure there is some socializing but how many times have I
seen Ingrid have a response like - '.9 lbs salt per 100 gals and medicated
food.' to a 200 word post. She's here to help. The answer and off to help
someone else. I too have experienced the frustration of having what on our
end is a desperate problem and receiving little response. I think this is
simply because no one knows or if it intend sounds like a desperate problem
no one wants to venture a guess about sick fish and aid in instead killing
them. I have also experienced that when one brings up multiple issues in
one post some tend not to be answered. Again I believe this is partially
because some answers are unknown. I dont know how everyone else does it but
I read the newest posts through google groups and post directly to usenet.
If something like this is common I think it also explains why one part is
answered up one side and down the other and the remainder of the thread is
lost/ignored - because that is the part of the thread that carries on. The
fact that you express frustration tells me, whether you like it or not you
are part of the PORG. I'm sure you will realize what a wonderful and
valuable group this is if you dont let your first impressions taint your
look at the group. I certainly do not speak for the group, but I suspect
they would all say you are right where you should be if you need help with
your pond (most of the time) and 'we' hope you stay.
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"Mary kate" > wrote in message
...
> I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
> it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
> we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
> books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
> does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
> answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
> hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
> another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
>

bluegill phil

June 24th 04, 12:53 AM

ive been into the usenet for more than 10 yrs and this group is one of
the nicest.some are overrun with socalled intellectuals.
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:53:43 +0100, "Lostin1999"
> wrote:

>
>"Mary kate" > wrote in message
...
>> I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
>> it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
>> we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
>> books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
>> does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
>> answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
>> hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
>> another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
>>
>
>yeah ive been reading Pond and water garden book's for a few years (ever
>since the idea first came to me to have a pond (well before the current
>"FAD" of ponding)) ive read from Charlie Dimmock to RHS (Royal Horticultural
>Society).
>
>for the feature it appears I can use what I like as long as it has a liner
>over it.. so the water feature is pretty much sorted (yet to be built, but
>plans are afoot!!)
>
>cannot get any answers on the Sterlets, (but I have learned not to call then
>Sturgeon (they are too young)) but im assuming it may be I have 2 males and
>they are seeking females (the smaller one of the trio at only 8" long will
>not be up to maturity for another year..
>
>brings me onto why I got sterlets.. I was told they ate Blanket weed
>(string algae to this newsgroup) so promptly bought 4.. (lost one when I
>was sorting a pump blockage and accidentally dropped pump into water right
>on top of it.. (alas poor fish)) funny how easy some retailers find it to
>lie to get a sale (that said I love em now!!)
>
>was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed to
>drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and my UV
>may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the fuse
>was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very lucky
>so far)
>
>not putting a uv on new pond (yet) as I need the filter (all new bio media)
>to fill with the good bacteria.. using alfagrog now (was on them plastic
>things provided with a hoselock box,) but feel new pond will need more than
>that. and read loads of good reviews of the Alfagrog stuff. so all is
>going well..
>
>as this is my first ornamental pond im being VERY careful..
>
>Lost
>

[email protected]

June 24th 04, 07:43 AM

heh, I resemble that remark. actually got a bumper sticker says "I am one of those
fancy pants elitists" LOL
Ingrid

bluegill phil <> wrote:
some are overrun with socalled intellectuals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Lostin1999

June 24th 04, 10:40 AM

"Bonnie" > wrote in message
...
> Lostin1999 wrote:
> > "Mary kate" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
> >>it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own until
> >>we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
> >>books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
> >>does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
> >>answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
> >>hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to find
> >>another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
> >>
> >
> >
> > yeah ive been reading Pond and water garden book's for a few years
(ever
> > since the idea first came to me to have a pond (well before the current
> > "FAD" of ponding)) ive read from Charlie Dimmock to RHS (Royal
Horticultural
> > Society).
> >
> > for the feature it appears I can use what I like as long as it has a
liner
> > over it.. so the water feature is pretty much sorted (yet to be built,
but
> > plans are afoot!!)
> >
> > cannot get any answers on the Sterlets, (but I have learned not to call
then
> > Sturgeon (they are too young)) but im assuming it may be I have 2 males
and
> > they are seeking females (the smaller one of the trio at only 8" long
will
> > not be up to maturity for another year..
> >
> > brings me onto why I got sterlets.. I was told they ate Blanket weed
> > (string algae to this newsgroup) so promptly bought 4.. (lost one when
I
> > was sorting a pump blockage and accidentally dropped pump into water
right
> > on top of it.. (alas poor fish)) funny how easy some retailers find it
to
> > lie to get a sale (that said I love em now!!)
> >
> > was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed
to
> > drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and
my UV
> > may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the
fuse
> > was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very
lucky
> > so far)
> >
> > not putting a uv on new pond (yet) as I need the filter (all new bio
media)
> > to fill with the good bacteria.. using alfagrog now (was on them
plastic
> > things provided with a hoselock box,) but feel new pond will need more
than
> > that. and read loads of good reviews of the Alfagrog stuff. so all is
> > going well..
> >
> > as this is my first ornamental pond im being VERY careful..
> >
> > Lost
> >
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> I do know who Charlie Dimmock is and do appreciate her work.
> The reason many of your questions weren't answered is that
> we don't know the answers. Many of your terms are unknown
> to us in the USA. I know nothing of sturgeon nor sterlets,
> nor hoselock box, or alfagrog. We need a translator!
>
> --
> Bonnie
> NJ
>
Sterlets more info at
http://www.aquariacentral.com/fishinfo/cold/sterlet.htm

Hoselock box is a filter box made by hozelock but has now been modified...
http://www.watergardeningdirect.com/OuterFrames/2002/2002OuterFrame.htm
mines the 9000 but as i say it has all new internals...

Alfagrog = a ceramic Lavarock style filter biomedia (and ill be adding a
veggie filter (having only learned of them here) soon)
http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/BradshawsDirectLimited/products/product-1031277.stm

so to recap, ive got an old hoselock filter box that i have removed the
plastic biomedia from and changed it for the alfagrog, at the moment the
flow is a wee bit high, but the spitters are yet to arrive and the geggie
filter will also be needing some of the flow

id love to put up some pictures, but at present dont have a clue about
making interwebby sites (well maybe a clue but thats all) might try and put
some in a yahoo photo album! its still a work in progress, but as i have
learned in my time ponding, its always a work in progress.. lol

Lost

>

Ka30P

June 24th 04, 02:53 PM

Hi Lost,
Thanks for the translation! ;-)
We have sturgeon over here that live in the rivers and they can get to be huge.
One recently got stuck in an irrigation canal around here and had to be removed
with a pickup truck towing it out.
I think a veggie filter will do a good job for you and it looks nice to boot.

We'll enjoy hearing more about your projects!

kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Nedra

June 24th 04, 04:23 PM

A tip for your photo album online. Try this: It's easy to navigate - I was
able to use
and it's Free!
http://community.webshots.com

Good Luck!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lostin1999" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bonnie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Lostin1999 wrote:
> > > "Mary kate" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>I'm new here also and I'm also new at ponding. I know how frustrating
> > >>it is to need answers and not get any......perhaps were on our own
until
> > >>we reach (their) levels in ponding. I've found several good
> > >>books.......at least with reading books there's no ( how many PORG'S
> > >>does it take to get ONE question answered) problems..LOL Wish I could
> > >>answer your questions { because I would ...there important to you }
> > >>hang in there...you still have a love for ponding, you just have to
find
> > >>another means for getting your questions answered :-) A BOOK
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > yeah ive been reading Pond and water garden book's for a few years
> (ever
> > > since the idea first came to me to have a pond (well before the
current
> > > "FAD" of ponding)) ive read from Charlie Dimmock to RHS (Royal
> Horticultural
> > > Society).
> > >
> > > for the feature it appears I can use what I like as long as it has a
> liner
> > > over it.. so the water feature is pretty much sorted (yet to be
built,
> but
> > > plans are afoot!!)
> > >
> > > cannot get any answers on the Sterlets, (but I have learned not to
call
> then
> > > Sturgeon (they are too young)) but im assuming it may be I have 2
males
> and
> > > they are seeking females (the smaller one of the trio at only 8" long
> will
> > > not be up to maturity for another year..
> > >
> > > brings me onto why I got sterlets.. I was told they ate Blanket weed
> > > (string algae to this newsgroup) so promptly bought 4.. (lost one
when
> I
> > > was sorting a pump blockage and accidentally dropped pump into water
> right
> > > on top of it.. (alas poor fish)) funny how easy some retailers find
it
> to
> > > lie to get a sale (that said I love em now!!)
> > >
> > > was sorting out a slow flow through my UV filter yesterday and managed
> to
> > > drop it in the pond.. (so had to reset the main fuse in the house and
> my UV
> > > may be dead.. (oops) just glad it didn't hit any fish and that the
> fuse
> > > was faster to act than the electric was to kill any fish!! (im very
> lucky
> > > so far)
> > >
> > > not putting a uv on new pond (yet) as I need the filter (all new bio
> media)
> > > to fill with the good bacteria.. using alfagrog now (was on them
> plastic
> > > things provided with a hoselock box,) but feel new pond will need more
> than
> > > that. and read loads of good reviews of the Alfagrog stuff. so all
is
> > > going well..
> > >
> > > as this is my first ornamental pond im being VERY careful..
> > >
> > > Lost
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I do know who Charlie Dimmock is and do appreciate her work.
> > The reason many of your questions weren't answered is that
> > we don't know the answers. Many of your terms are unknown
> > to us in the USA. I know nothing of sturgeon nor sterlets,
> > nor hoselock box, or alfagrog. We need a translator!
> >
> > --
> > Bonnie
> > NJ
> >
> Sterlets more info at
> http://www.aquariacentral.com/fishinfo/cold/sterlet.htm
>
> Hoselock box is a filter box made by hozelock but has now been modified...
> http://www.watergardeningdirect.com/OuterFrames/2002/2002OuterFrame.htm
> mines the 9000 but as i say it has all new internals...
>
> Alfagrog = a ceramic Lavarock style filter biomedia (and ill be adding a
> veggie filter (having only learned of them here) soon)
>
http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/BradshawsDirectLimited/products/product-1031277.stm
>
> so to recap, ive got an old hoselock filter box that i have removed the
> plastic biomedia from and changed it for the alfagrog, at the moment the
> flow is a wee bit high, but the spitters are yet to arrive and the geggie
> filter will also be needing some of the flow
>
> id love to put up some pictures, but at present dont have a clue about
> making interwebby sites (well maybe a clue but thats all) might try and
put
> some in a yahoo photo album! its still a work in progress, but as i have
> learned in my time ponding, its always a work in progress.. lol
>
> Lost
>
>
> >
>
>