a challenge for the rec.ponds experts

[Ka30P]

Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!

I've been noodling around the web looking for information
about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.

She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
use it in a koi pond. That's right white!

Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and our
challenge that I put before you is how to do that.

Now I'm thinking....
a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush and a
commitment to maintenance.

But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in the
skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all suggest as
far as filtering, really polishing the water?

Have at it!


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[Gale Pearce]

Hi Kathy - IMHO, you can't keep a liner white without pool chemicals - algae
is going to form on the liner and rocks and any folds, nooks and crannies
etc no matter how often you scrub it. I think this is why a new pond takes
so long to balance itself as it forms the algae on surfaces in the pond and
the bacteria sets up on it as compared to a pond a few yrs old. Assuming you
managed to keep the liner scrubbed white, you will likely need a UV and a
good BIO filter. Interesting....... can't wait to hear if this is possible
just my $.02 worth
Gale :~)
"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[Gale Pearce]

Hi Kathy - IMHO, you can't keep a liner white without pool chemicals - algae
is going to form on the liner and rocks and any folds, nooks and crannies
etc no matter how often you scrub it. I think this is why a new pond takes
so long to balance itself as it forms the algae on surfaces in the pond and
the bacteria sets up on it as compared to a pond a few yrs old. Assuming you
managed to keep the liner scrubbed white, you will likely need a UV and a
good BIO filter. Interesting....... can't wait to hear if this is possible
just my $.02 worth
Gale :~)
"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[San Diego Joe]

"Ka30P" wrote:

>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush and
> a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all suggest
> as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Kathy,

I don't know about keeping the liner white. Won't algae grow on it? Sounds
like way tooooooooooo much maintenance to me.


San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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[San Diego Joe]

"Ka30P" wrote:

>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush and
> a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all suggest
> as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Kathy,

I don't know about keeping the liner white. Won't algae grow on it? Sounds
like way tooooooooooo much maintenance to me.


San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ron, KC4YOY]

> I don't know about keeping the liner white. Won't algae grow on it?

Oh yes, I resealed my former spa pond with white Portland
cement based sealer. Looked like a swimming pool for a
while. A SHORT while.
Then the algae started to grow on it.
Now it's completely black.
I think you'll work yourself to death trying to keep
it clean.

For really clear water a good veggie filter works best.
My pond is four feet deep and it's crystal clear
all the way to the bottom.

Ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/Cement_Pond1.html

[Ron, KC4YOY]

> I don't know about keeping the liner white. Won't algae grow on it?

Oh yes, I resealed my former spa pond with white Portland
cement based sealer. Looked like a swimming pool for a
while. A SHORT while.
Then the algae started to grow on it.
Now it's completely black.
I think you'll work yourself to death trying to keep
it clean.

For really clear water a good veggie filter works best.
My pond is four feet deep and it's crystal clear
all the way to the bottom.

Ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/Cement_Pond1.html

[Pam Gibbs]

Well, the inside of my pond is white fiberglass So far the stuff that has
started to grow on the sides and bottom are sort of pale brownish greenish
reddish and against the white it is a nice mottled appearance that I like
better than unrelieved black. The goldfish show up beautifully. I am using
both black and white containers for plants and they are ALL ugly.

My pond is new, a couple of months old, with an almost complete water change
last weekend. I guess there's no way to tell how the white inside will
look until it has had time to settle and the plants have time to grow.

I am wondering if the whiteness and all that reflected light will make the
algae bloom worse. I think the first one is starting now. I could still
see the bottom yesterday but today it's a bit hazy and just looks slimy.

Keep us posted on how the white liner works out?


"Gale Pearce" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Kathy - IMHO, you can't keep a liner white without pool chemicals -
algae
> is going to form on the liner and rocks and any folds, nooks and crannies
> etc no matter how often you scrub it. I think this is why a new pond
takes
> so long to balance itself as it forms the algae on surfaces in the pond
and
> the bacteria sets up on it as compared to a pond a few yrs old. Assuming
you
> managed to keep the liner scrubbed white, you will likely need a UV and a
> good BIO filter. Interesting....... can't wait to hear if this is possible
> just my $.02 worth
> Gale :~)
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> >
> > I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> > about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> > So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
> >
> > She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> > use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
> >
> > Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
> our
> > challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
> >
> > Now I'm thinking....
> > a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft
brush
> and a
> > commitment to maintenance.
> >
> > But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
> the
> > skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
> suggest as
> > far as filtering, really polishing the water?
> >
> > Have at it!
> >
> >
> > kathy :-)
> > algae primer
> > http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html
>
>

[Pam Gibbs]

Well, the inside of my pond is white fiberglass So far the stuff that has
started to grow on the sides and bottom are sort of pale brownish greenish
reddish and against the white it is a nice mottled appearance that I like
better than unrelieved black. The goldfish show up beautifully. I am using
both black and white containers for plants and they are ALL ugly.

My pond is new, a couple of months old, with an almost complete water change
last weekend. I guess there's no way to tell how the white inside will
look until it has had time to settle and the plants have time to grow.

I am wondering if the whiteness and all that reflected light will make the
algae bloom worse. I think the first one is starting now. I could still
see the bottom yesterday but today it's a bit hazy and just looks slimy.

Keep us posted on how the white liner works out?


"Gale Pearce" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Kathy - IMHO, you can't keep a liner white without pool chemicals -
algae
> is going to form on the liner and rocks and any folds, nooks and crannies
> etc no matter how often you scrub it. I think this is why a new pond
takes
> so long to balance itself as it forms the algae on surfaces in the pond
and
> the bacteria sets up on it as compared to a pond a few yrs old. Assuming
you
> managed to keep the liner scrubbed white, you will likely need a UV and a
> good BIO filter. Interesting....... can't wait to hear if this is possible
> just my $.02 worth
> Gale :~)
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> >
> > I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> > about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> > So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
> >
> > She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> > use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
> >
> > Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
> our
> > challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
> >
> > Now I'm thinking....
> > a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft
brush
> and a
> > commitment to maintenance.
> >
> > But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
> the
> > skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
> suggest as
> > far as filtering, really polishing the water?
> >
> > Have at it!
> >
> >
> > kathy :-)
> > algae primer
> > http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html
>
>

[how]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> snips
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>

Hi,
http://www.mobilroof.com/faquv.html suggests that there are other problems
and they concern exposure to the sun. Some of the carbon (which gives EPDM
its UV protection) is removed in order to add titanium oxide.
Others have said that keeping it white would be a problem and I agree,
brushing would be the only way I see to accomplish this. Gin clear water is
much easier to accomplish. My opinions, since this pond will require
daily/hourly brushing you might as well have a DE filter as the finish
filter. First would be, of course, a large settle tank from the sump of the
pond which will be opposite where the water re-enters the pond, this would
be covered from the sun . Second would be an aerated "pot scrubbie" basin.
Third a veggie filter which flows to a smaller sump and then is pumped to
the DE and back to the pond. In this setup clean water is pumped to the
pond, no dirty water is pumped at all. And while they are out there brushing
they can net the bottom for the big stuff using a pool net, the kind with
the 'fin' on them.
HTH -_- how
no NEWS is good

[how]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> snips
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>

Hi,
http://www.mobilroof.com/faquv.html suggests that there are other problems
and they concern exposure to the sun. Some of the carbon (which gives EPDM
its UV protection) is removed in order to add titanium oxide.
Others have said that keeping it white would be a problem and I agree,
brushing would be the only way I see to accomplish this. Gin clear water is
much easier to accomplish. My opinions, since this pond will require
daily/hourly brushing you might as well have a DE filter as the finish
filter. First would be, of course, a large settle tank from the sump of the
pond which will be opposite where the water re-enters the pond, this would
be covered from the sun . Second would be an aerated "pot scrubbie" basin.
Third a veggie filter which flows to a smaller sump and then is pumped to
the DE and back to the pond. In this setup clean water is pumped to the
pond, no dirty water is pumped at all. And while they are out there brushing
they can net the bottom for the big stuff using a pool net, the kind with
the 'fin' on them.
HTH -_- how
no NEWS is good

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

IMHO, I think I'd tell her to go look at a platinum butterfly koi, and say,
you really want to hide that?

So many koi have white in them, but may not be the white white of the liner
(assuming one could keep it white white) so one either looks dirty white
compared to the other. Now with all orange fish, probably better, but than
you do have the baskets to hide. As far as a filter, I think one would need
a pre-filter, mechanical filter, bio filter and a pressurized system to
polish, be it beads, sand, or DE, and let's not forget the UV. And she
better be very willing to test the water and keep an eye on pH, KH, and the
nitrates... without algae to help out with that last one. ~jan



>On 24 Jul 2004 15:22:40 GMT, (Ka30P) wrote:

>
>Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
>I've been noodling around the web looking for information
>about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
>So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
>She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
>use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
>Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and our
>challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
>Now I'm thinking....
>a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush and a
>commitment to maintenance.
>
>But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in the
>skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all suggest as
>far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
>Have at it!
>
>
>kathy :-)
>algae primer
>http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

IMHO, I think I'd tell her to go look at a platinum butterfly koi, and say,
you really want to hide that?

So many koi have white in them, but may not be the white white of the liner
(assuming one could keep it white white) so one either looks dirty white
compared to the other. Now with all orange fish, probably better, but than
you do have the baskets to hide. As far as a filter, I think one would need
a pre-filter, mechanical filter, bio filter and a pressurized system to
polish, be it beads, sand, or DE, and let's not forget the UV. And she
better be very willing to test the water and keep an eye on pH, KH, and the
nitrates... without algae to help out with that last one. ~jan



>On 24 Jul 2004 15:22:40 GMT, (Ka30P) wrote:

>
>Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
>I've been noodling around the web looking for information
>about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
>So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
>She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
>use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
>Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and our
>challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
>Now I'm thinking....
>a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush and a
>commitment to maintenance.
>
>But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in the
>skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all suggest as
>far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
>Have at it!
>
>
>kathy :-)
>algae primer
>http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[matrix j]

Chlorine:-)

[matrix j]

Chlorine:-)

[volts500]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure you
know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first day,
3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that Ple*cos
will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once in
an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides of
the pond.

[volts500]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
>
> I've been noodling around the web looking for information
> about various pest deterrents and I found an interesting post.
> So I emailed this nice person and we've been exchanging emails.
>
> She found a white EPDM liner at an auction and would like to
> use it in a koi pond. That's right white!
>
> Now the idea is that the koi will show up loverly against the white and
our
> challenge that I put before you is how to do that.
>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
>
> But for the stuff that doesn't go through the bottom drain and caught in
the
> skimmer and we want to keep this water crystal clear what do you all
suggest as
> far as filtering, really polishing the water?
>
> Have at it!
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure you
know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first day,
3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that Ple*cos
will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once in
an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides of
the pond.

[how]

"volts500" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> > snip
>
> Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
> couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure you
> know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first
day,
> 3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that Ple*cos
> will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once in
> an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
> don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides of
> the pond.

Hi,
Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the sides
clean. They will eat the food you feed the other fish. They will die when
the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to catch to bring in for the
winter. Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit cute
and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
avoided.
Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration? Most ponders
would not like the expense of keeping enough activated carbon in their
ponds.
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[how]

"volts500" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> > snip
>
> Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
> couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure you
> know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first
day,
> 3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that Ple*cos
> will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once in
> an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
> don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides of
> the pond.

Hi,
Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the sides
clean. They will eat the food you feed the other fish. They will die when
the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to catch to bring in for the
winter. Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit cute
and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
avoided.
Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration? Most ponders
would not like the expense of keeping enough activated carbon in their
ponds.
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[how]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> snips
> As far as a filter, I think one would need
> a pre-filter, mechanical filter, bio filter and a pressurized system to
> polish, be it beads, sand, or DE, and let's not forget the UV. And she
> better be very willing to test the water and keep an eye on pH, KH, and
the
> nitrates... without algae to help out with that last one. ~jan

Hi,
Of course I would not do it like you would ;-) but do want to emphasize the
point you made about algae. I've heard/read/made up, that about 30% of bio
filtration happens right in the pond. The algae that will need to be brushed
off to maintain this white setup will need to be compensated for with a
larger filter no matter what type is used and closer monitoring of
parameters. UV or not UV - not!
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[how]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> snips
> As far as a filter, I think one would need
> a pre-filter, mechanical filter, bio filter and a pressurized system to
> polish, be it beads, sand, or DE, and let's not forget the UV. And she
> better be very willing to test the water and keep an eye on pH, KH, and
the
> nitrates... without algae to help out with that last one. ~jan

Hi,
Of course I would not do it like you would ;-) but do want to emphasize the
point you made about algae. I've heard/read/made up, that about 30% of bio
filtration happens right in the pond. The algae that will need to be brushed
off to maintain this white setup will need to be compensated for with a
larger filter no matter what type is used and closer monitoring of
parameters. UV or not UV - not!
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I know, she needs a 2nd pond, with black liner to grow the necessary
algae.... which could be a veggie filter with plants.

After reading all our ideas & opinions, I'd sure scrap using the white
liner. ;o) ~ jan

>Hi,
>Of course I would not do it like you would ;-) but do want to emphasize the
>point you made about algae. I've heard/read/made up, that about 30% of bio
>filtration happens right in the pond. The algae that will need to be brushed
>off to maintain this white setup will need to be compensated for with a
>larger filter no matter what type is used and closer monitoring of
>parameters. UV or not UV - not!
>L8R -_- how
>no NEWS is good


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I know, she needs a 2nd pond, with black liner to grow the necessary
algae.... which could be a veggie filter with plants.

After reading all our ideas & opinions, I'd sure scrap using the white
liner. ;o) ~ jan

>Hi,
>Of course I would not do it like you would ;-) but do want to emphasize the
>point you made about algae. I've heard/read/made up, that about 30% of bio
>filtration happens right in the pond. The algae that will need to be brushed
>off to maintain this white setup will need to be compensated for with a
>larger filter no matter what type is used and closer monitoring of
>parameters. UV or not UV - not!
>L8R -_- how
>no NEWS is good


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[volts500]

"how" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "volts500" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> > > snip
> >
> > Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
> > couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure
you
> > know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first
> day,
> > 3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that
Ple*cos
> > will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once
in
> > an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
> > don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides
of
> > the pond.
>
> Hi,
> Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the sides
> clean.

Depends upon the size of the "pond" and the number of plecos. I have three
150 gal or so preformed "ponds" connected by spillways. The bio/mechanical
filter is at the top. The top two "ponds" are more or less veggie filters
and the bottom one has large goldfish and two plecos. The sides of the
bottom "pond" are spotless because of the Plecos. Middle "pond" has another
Pleco and a red ear slider that came from I don't know where (they're
buddies). The water is clear and the only maintenance that I do is to clear
the pump impeller once a week or so from debris and clean the bio/mechanical
filter every 4 to 6 months. If I want to "polish" the water, I put Poly
Squares (from the craft/sewing dept. in some stores) in the bio/mechanical
filter for a few hours.....have to keep an eye on it though, because the
mesh is so fine that the filter will back up. The clear water does have an
amber tint from tannins as I don't run a carbon filter. It's not noticable
anyway because the preforms are black.

>They will eat the food you feed the other fish.

Not if one doesn't overfeed the fish. The Goldfish eat the food long before
the Plecos have a chance to get to it. In fact, my wife sneaks out at night
and throws in extra, just so the Plecos _do_ get some pellets.

.. They will die when
> the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to catch to bring in for
the
> winter.

There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
"ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the air
temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.

> Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
> have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit cute
> and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
> avoided.

I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing (a
white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in the
right size pond.
The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in my
pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year round
here too. I'll admit that it is a _lot_ of work to keep Discus outside in
the winter here.....that's why I don't do it anymore. Fancy Guppies do fine
though, year round.

> Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?

Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar. 30 years
ago I killed my favorite Oscar with some Marineland (brand) carbon when I
was running a fresh batch in an Eheim filter, forgot to set the timer, then
fell asleep :-(

> Most ponders
> would not like the expense of keeping enough activated carbon in their
> ponds.

Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better, less
expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.

[volts500]

"how" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "volts500" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Okay people, I've got a challenge for you!
> > > snip
> >
> > Bio/mechanical filter > DE filter > carbon filter > veggie filter and a
> > couple of Ple*cos. Careful with the carbon filter, though, as I'm sure
you
> > know, as most need to be introduced gradually, maybe one hour the first
> day,
> > 3 hours the 2nd day, 6 hours the 3rd day... Some people say that
Ple*cos
> > will attach to the sides of the other fish. I've seen this happen once
in
> > an aquarium, possibily because the Ple*co had nothing to eat? So.... I
> > don't introduce the Ple*cos until the algae starts growing on the sides
of
> > the pond.
>
> Hi,
> Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the sides
> clean.

Depends upon the size of the "pond" and the number of plecos. I have three
150 gal or so preformed "ponds" connected by spillways. The bio/mechanical
filter is at the top. The top two "ponds" are more or less veggie filters
and the bottom one has large goldfish and two plecos. The sides of the
bottom "pond" are spotless because of the Plecos. Middle "pond" has another
Pleco and a red ear slider that came from I don't know where (they're
buddies). The water is clear and the only maintenance that I do is to clear
the pump impeller once a week or so from debris and clean the bio/mechanical
filter every 4 to 6 months. If I want to "polish" the water, I put Poly
Squares (from the craft/sewing dept. in some stores) in the bio/mechanical
filter for a few hours.....have to keep an eye on it though, because the
mesh is so fine that the filter will back up. The clear water does have an
amber tint from tannins as I don't run a carbon filter. It's not noticable
anyway because the preforms are black.

>They will eat the food you feed the other fish.

Not if one doesn't overfeed the fish. The Goldfish eat the food long before
the Plecos have a chance to get to it. In fact, my wife sneaks out at night
and throws in extra, just so the Plecos _do_ get some pellets.

.. They will die when
> the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to catch to bring in for
the
> winter.

There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
"ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the air
temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.

> Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
> have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit cute
> and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
> avoided.

I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing (a
white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in the
right size pond.
The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in my
pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year round
here too. I'll admit that it is a _lot_ of work to keep Discus outside in
the winter here.....that's why I don't do it anymore. Fancy Guppies do fine
though, year round.

> Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?

Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar. 30 years
ago I killed my favorite Oscar with some Marineland (brand) carbon when I
was running a fresh batch in an Eheim filter, forgot to set the timer, then
fell asleep :-(

> Most ponders
> would not like the expense of keeping enough activated carbon in their
> ponds.

Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better, less
expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.

[how]

"volts500" > wrote in message
...
>
> "how" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "volts500" > wrote in message
> > . ..

> > Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the
sides clean.
>
> Depends upon the size of the "pond" and the number of plecos.
> snip
> Middle "pond" has another Pleco and a red ear slider
> snip
> If I want to "polish" the water, I put Poly Squares
> snip

You and I are just not going to get along ;-) turtles in a water garden- not
me.
Personally have never seen plecostomus keep pond sides clean and in most
cases this would not be wanted if they did. I guess with a "proper"
pleco/gallon ratio and the addition of no food it is possible. The last time
I had any in a pond that I maintained, they (Hypostomus plecostomus) would
surface on their backs and suck the food intended for the goldfish.
The polyfiber thing is great. I use it in a portable ex-sand filter along
with flocculants to "clear the green pond because we are having a party this
weekend" syndrome.

> > They will die when the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to
catch to bring in for
> > the winter.
>
> There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
> catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
> "ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the air
> temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.
>

South Florida here and they have floated from cold. They do supposedly
inhabit canals in this area and I'm assuming they 'mud it' when it gets
cold. Are you one of them new Northern fellers who don't think Fl has
winters and have not seen ice on their pond yet ;-) ? Me too, well actually
it has been 30+ years here and I've had ice.

> > Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
> > have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit
cute
> > and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
> > avoided.
>
> I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
> every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing
(a
> white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in the
> right size pond.
> The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in my
> pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year round
> here too.
> snip

Well you could teach me something about fish husbandry I'm sure. I don't
know anything about Discus did you need heat to do winters with them? You
should listen to your LFS ;-)

> > Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?
>
> Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar.
> snip
> Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better, less
> expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.


I'm still puzzled on this one, teach me. What does AC remove that is
required for fish? I know it can remove chlorine/chloramines, medications,
pesticides, color ---- OK, I forgot that one and carbon will remove the tint
and we were talking white liner. The cost of 1to 3 lbs per 1000 gallons per
1 to 2 months will, IMO, increase the acceptance of a slight yellow tint to
most ponders.
Did I at least 'un-superstious' you? I.E. ple*cos - plecos ;-)
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[how]

"volts500" > wrote in message
...
>
> "how" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "volts500" > wrote in message
> > . ..

> > Forget the plecostomus (me superstitious? no) they will not keep the
sides clean.
>
> Depends upon the size of the "pond" and the number of plecos.
> snip
> Middle "pond" has another Pleco and a red ear slider
> snip
> If I want to "polish" the water, I put Poly Squares
> snip

You and I are just not going to get along ;-) turtles in a water garden- not
me.
Personally have never seen plecostomus keep pond sides clean and in most
cases this would not be wanted if they did. I guess with a "proper"
pleco/gallon ratio and the addition of no food it is possible. The last time
I had any in a pond that I maintained, they (Hypostomus plecostomus) would
surface on their backs and suck the food intended for the goldfish.
The polyfiber thing is great. I use it in a portable ex-sand filter along
with flocculants to "clear the green pond because we are having a party this
weekend" syndrome.

> > They will die when the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to
catch to bring in for
> > the winter.
>
> There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
> catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
> "ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the air
> temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.
>

South Florida here and they have floated from cold. They do supposedly
inhabit canals in this area and I'm assuming they 'mud it' when it gets
cold. Are you one of them new Northern fellers who don't think Fl has
winters and have not seen ice on their pond yet ;-) ? Me too, well actually
it has been 30+ years here and I've had ice.

> > Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
> > have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit
cute
> > and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
> > avoided.
>
> I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
> every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing
(a
> white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in the
> right size pond.
> The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in my
> pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year round
> here too.
> snip

Well you could teach me something about fish husbandry I'm sure. I don't
know anything about Discus did you need heat to do winters with them? You
should listen to your LFS ;-)

> > Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?
>
> Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar.
> snip
> Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better, less
> expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.


I'm still puzzled on this one, teach me. What does AC remove that is
required for fish? I know it can remove chlorine/chloramines, medications,
pesticides, color ---- OK, I forgot that one and carbon will remove the tint
and we were talking white liner. The cost of 1to 3 lbs per 1000 gallons per
1 to 2 months will, IMO, increase the acceptance of a slight yellow tint to
most ponders.
Did I at least 'un-superstious' you? I.E. ple*cos - plecos ;-)
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

[volts500]

"how" > wrote in message
. ..

> You and I are just not going to get along ;-) turtles in a water garden-
not
> me.

The turtle came out of nowhere, but there is a nearby drainage ditch/culvert
that leads to a retention pond, though. It is welcome to stay along with
the other creatures that saunter in :-) I may draw the line at raccoons and
herons, though....so far we haven't had them (***). I don't like it when the
Bluejays eat the baby treefrogs, either, but the cats help some with that
problem. The turtle hasn't caused any problems as of yet. It was very small
when it came...about 4" now. Only time will tell.

> Personally have never seen plecostomus keep pond sides clean and in most
> cases this would not be wanted if they did. I guess with a "proper"
> pleco/gallon ratio and the addition of no food it is possible. The last
time
> I had any in a pond that I maintained, they (Hypostomus plecostomus) would
> surface on their backs and suck the food intended for the goldfish.

Ours do that too, but the goldfish get the lion's share. Usually I only feed
enough so that the food is gone by the time the Plecos get up to the
top.........that's why the wife sneaks out to give them more. I gave up
trying to convince her that I _want_ them to be hungry so they will eat the
algae instead. Even though she feeds them pellets, they still keep the
sides of the pond clean.

> The polyfiber thing is great. I use it in a portable ex-sand filter along
> with flocculants to "clear the green pond because we are having a party
this
> weekend" syndrome.

> > > They will die when the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to
> catch to bring in for
> > > the winter.
> >
> > There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
> > catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
> > "ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the
air
> > temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.
> >
>
> South Florida here and they have floated from cold. They do supposedly
> inhabit canals in this area and I'm assuming they 'mud it' when it gets
> cold. Are you one of them new Northern fellers who don't think Fl has
> winters and have not seen ice on their pond yet ;-) ? Me too, well
actually
> it has been 30+ years here and I've had ice.

I've had aquariums for 35 years, but only had a water garden for about 4 or
5 years here. As you know, Winter's have been pretty mild in recent years.
We're probably due for some cold. If it gets too cold, I'll drop a heater
in there for 'em.
I do remember when it snowed in '76, though, and a lot orange groves and
strawberries got damaged from the freeze in '84(?).

> > > Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
> > > have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit
> cute
> > > and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
> > > avoided.
> >
> > I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
> > every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing
> (a
> > white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in
the
> > right size pond.
> > The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in
my
> > pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year
round
> > here too.
> > snip
>
> Well you could teach me something about fish husbandry I'm sure. I don't
> know anything about Discus did you need heat to do winters with them? You
> should listen to your LFS ;-)

I wouldn't do it again because it's just too hard on them, but, yeah,
styrofoam around the tanks and lots of aquarium heaters. Only burnt out one
heater.

>
> > > Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?
> >
> > Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar.
> > snip
> > Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better,
less
> > expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.
>
>
> I'm still puzzled on this one, teach me. What does AC remove that is
> required for fish? I know it can remove chlorine/chloramines, medications,
> pesticides, color ---- OK, I forgot that one and carbon will remove the
tint
> and we were talking white liner.

That was the only reason that I mentioned the AC, tint.

>The cost of 1to 3 lbs per 1000 gallons per
> 1 to 2 months will, IMO, increase the acceptance of a slight yellow tint
to
> most ponders.

Agreed. Probably the same for the DE too, if a sizable veggie filter is
used for settling. I had assumed that Kathy was looking for pristine,
crystal clear water since a white liner was mentioned.

> Did I at least 'un-superstious' you? I.E. ple*cos - plecos ;-)

No.....now I'm starting to wonder if it going to snow this year :-) Maybe
this will help: ******************************

[bluegill phil]

Even if it ageas over its got to be brighter than black. My water
finaly cleared up but its 6ft deep so it looks like a black hole.I
would like to see one. Better hide it from the UV rays.






On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:39:06 GMT, "volts500"
> wrote:

>
>"how" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>> You and I are just not going to get along ;-) turtles in a water garden-
>not
>> me.
>
>The turtle came out of nowhere, but there is a nearby drainage ditch/culvert
>that leads to a retention pond, though. It is welcome to stay along with
>the other creatures that saunter in :-) I may draw the line at raccoons and
>herons, though....so far we haven't had them (***). I don't like it when the
>Bluejays eat the baby treefrogs, either, but the cats help some with that
>problem. The turtle hasn't caused any problems as of yet. It was very small
>when it came...about 4" now. Only time will tell.
>
>> Personally have never seen plecostomus keep pond sides clean and in most
>> cases this would not be wanted if they did. I guess with a "proper"
>> pleco/gallon ratio and the addition of no food it is possible. The last
>time
>> I had any in a pond that I maintained, they (Hypostomus plecostomus) would
>> surface on their backs and suck the food intended for the goldfish.
>
>Ours do that too, but the goldfish get the lion's share. Usually I only feed
>enough so that the food is gone by the time the Plecos get up to the
>top.........that's why the wife sneaks out to give them more. I gave up
>trying to convince her that I _want_ them to be hungry so they will eat the
>algae instead. Even though she feeds them pellets, they still keep the
>sides of the pond clean.
>
>> The polyfiber thing is great. I use it in a portable ex-sand filter along
>> with flocculants to "clear the green pond because we are having a party
>this
>> weekend" syndrome.
>
>> > > They will die when the water is 55/50 degrees F and are very hard to
>> catch to bring in for
>> > > the winter.
>> >
>> > There is no doubt that they will die at lower temps and are difficult to
>> > catch. Here in central FL they do very well in the wild and in small
>> > "ponds", such as mine.. I haven't recorded the water temps. when the
>air
>> > temps. get down into the 30's here, but the Plecos do hang in there.
>> >
>>
>> South Florida here and they have floated from cold. They do supposedly
>> inhabit canals in this area and I'm assuming they 'mud it' when it gets
>> cold. Are you one of them new Northern fellers who don't think Fl has
>> winters and have not seen ice on their pond yet ;-) ? Me too, well
>actually
>> it has been 30+ years here and I've had ice.
>
>I've had aquariums for 35 years, but only had a water garden for about 4 or
>5 years here. As you know, Winter's have been pretty mild in recent years.
>We're probably due for some cold. If it gets too cold, I'll drop a heater
>in there for 'em.
>I do remember when it snowed in '76, though, and a lot orange groves and
>strawberries got damaged from the freeze in '84(?).
>
>> > > Personally have never seen one sucking on another fish but others
>> > > have observed this. IMO they are useless in a pond, not the least bit
>> cute
>> > > and hard to handle. LFS that sell them as 'a must' for ponds are to be
>> > > avoided.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't say that they are a must either, however, with a white liner,
>> > every little bit helps. Again, from my experience, a _lot_ of scrubbing
>> (a
>> > white liner) could be avoided if the right number of Plecos are put in
>the
>> > right size pond.
>> > The LFS's in my area that I go to actually told me _not_ to put them in
>my
>> > pond, but then I have been known to raise/breed Discus outside year
>round
>> > here too.
>> > snip
>>
>> Well you could teach me something about fish husbandry I'm sure. I don't
>> know anything about Discus did you need heat to do winters with them? You
>> should listen to your LFS ;-)
>
>I wouldn't do it again because it's just too hard on them, but, yeah,
>styrofoam around the tanks and lots of aquarium heaters. Only burnt out one
>heater.
>
>>
>> > > Any citations on gradual introduction of carbon filtration?
>> >
>> > Some carbon manufacturers will state same right on the box or jar.
>> > snip
>> > Most ponders don't use white liners either :-) If you know a better,
>less
>> > expensive way to remove the amber tint (tannins), I'm all ears.
>>
>>
>> I'm still puzzled on this one, teach me. What does AC remove that is
>> required for fish? I know it can remove chlorine/chloramines, medications,
>> pesticides, color ---- OK, I forgot that one and carbon will remove the
>tint
>> and we were talking white liner.
>
>That was the only reason that I mentioned the AC, tint.
>
>>The cost of 1to 3 lbs per 1000 gallons per
>> 1 to 2 months will, IMO, increase the acceptance of a slight yellow tint
>to
>> most ponders.
>
>Agreed. Probably the same for the DE too, if a sizable veggie filter is
>used for settling. I had assumed that Kathy was looking for pristine,
>crystal clear water since a white liner was mentioned.
>
>> Did I at least 'un-superstious' you? I.E. ple*cos - plecos ;-)
>
>No.....now I'm starting to wonder if it going to snow this year :-) Maybe
>this will help: ******************************
>

[Benign Vanilla]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Now I'm thinking....
> a bottom drain and skimmer, of course, and a nice long handled soft brush
and a
> commitment to maintenance.
<snip>

I think the last three words of this sentence, need to be in bold, flashing,
red text that plays loud trumpet music whenever you look at it. That liner
will be quickly become algae covered. If you scrub it to keep it clean, you
will be have a massive particle filter issue, not to mention you will lose a
lot of your buffering capability

BV.