Hardness Question

[Dan White]

I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of calcium and
magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to bring
the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said that the
pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the hardness is
not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not removing
any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).

The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are not
eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and seem
to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience says
they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said tetras are
finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water. The
hardness could be stressing them.

Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair amount of
conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.

Thanks for any comments,
dwhite

[Iain Miller]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
. net...
> I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of calcium
and
> magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to bring
> the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said that
the
> pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
> affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the hardness is
> not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not removing
> any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).
>
> The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are not
> eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and
seem
> to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience says
> they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said tetras
are
> finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water. The
> hardness could be stressing them.
>
> Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair amount
of
> conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.

There are two types of Hardness in Water - Carbonate (Kh) & General (Gh).
Suggest you Google for the relationship between Kh, CO2 & Ph.

Very few people seem to hold with using products like Ph Down - the best
ways to soften water (reduce the Kh) is either to use RO water which you can
either buy from your LFS or make yourself with an RO unit or, alternatively,
to filter water through peat (outside the tank). The latter is cheap &
effective.

You can bring the hardness in your tank down over time by putting bogwood in
there as well.

I.

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
. net...
> I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of calcium
and
> magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to
bring
> the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said that
the
> pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
> affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the hardness
is
> not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not
removing
> any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).
>
> The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are
not
> eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and
seem
> to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience
says
> they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said tetras
are
> finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water.
The
> hardness could be stressing them.
>
> Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair
amount of
> conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.
>
> Thanks for any comments,
> dwhite


Suggest you post your water parameters. If you think that your water is
slightly hard and is stressing your tetras, then playing with the
chemistry can also create another stressor for them. If your water is
only slightly hard and alkaline (and should be compared with the water
they came from at the LFS), then you might be better to let them
acclimate (and perhaps tweak the water down slowly). If you water is
extremely hard, then ymmv, as the cure is as bad as the disease when it
comes to very small fish (if the water was hard enough to kill them, then
the change to soft water will be as stressful again). The longer the
tetras have been in hard water, the more gentle you should be about
softening the water. IMO three days is about a mid-point (at 3 days, I
would soften only half as much as the difference between source &
destination).

My own take on water is here
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml , and I've found many
credible web pages on water management, links here:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/Links/links.shtml#faqsites , hth.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dan White]

OK, thanks to both for your ideas! I still need to get an ammonia tester
before I can give all the parameters, but I did dose the tank with Cycle.

dwhite


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Dan White" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of calcium
> and
> > magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to
> bring
> > the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said that
> the
> > pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
> > affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the hardness
> is
> > not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not
> removing
> > any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).
> >
> > The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are
> not
> > eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and
> seem
> > to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience
> says
> > they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said tetras
> are
> > finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water.
> The
> > hardness could be stressing them.
> >
> > Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair
> amount of
> > conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.
> >
> > Thanks for any comments,
> > dwhite
>
>
> Suggest you post your water parameters. If you think that your water is
> slightly hard and is stressing your tetras, then playing with the
> chemistry can also create another stressor for them. If your water is
> only slightly hard and alkaline (and should be compared with the water
> they came from at the LFS), then you might be better to let them
> acclimate (and perhaps tweak the water down slowly). If you water is
> extremely hard, then ymmv, as the cure is as bad as the disease when it
> comes to very small fish (if the water was hard enough to kill them, then
> the change to soft water will be as stressful again). The longer the
> tetras have been in hard water, the more gentle you should be about
> softening the water. IMO three days is about a mid-point (at 3 days, I
> would soften only half as much as the difference between source &
> destination).
>
> My own take on water is here
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml , and I've found many
> credible web pages on water management, links here:
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/Links/links.shtml#faqsites , hth.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[Bill Stock]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
. net...
> OK, thanks to both for your ideas! I still need to get an ammonia tester
> before I can give all the parameters, but I did dose the tank with Cycle.
>
> dwhite

Dan,

You might consider one of the SeaChem Ammonia Alerts that suction cup inside
the tank. They give you a visible indicator of your ammonia levels. I paid
about $6 CDN for mine.

>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dan White" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of
calcium
> > and
> > > magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to
> > bring
> > > the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said
that
> > the
> > > pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
> > > affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the
hardness
> > is
> > > not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not
> > removing
> > > any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).
> > >
> > > The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are
> > not
> > > eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and
> > seem
> > > to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience
> > says
> > > they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said
tetras
> > are
> > > finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water.
> > The
> > > hardness could be stressing them.
> > >
> > > Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair
> > amount of
> > > conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any comments,
> > > dwhite
> >
> >
> > Suggest you post your water parameters. If you think that your water is
> > slightly hard and is stressing your tetras, then playing with the
> > chemistry can also create another stressor for them. If your water is
> > only slightly hard and alkaline (and should be compared with the water
> > they came from at the LFS), then you might be better to let them
> > acclimate (and perhaps tweak the water down slowly). If you water is
> > extremely hard, then ymmv, as the cure is as bad as the disease when it
> > comes to very small fish (if the water was hard enough to kill them,
then
> > the change to soft water will be as stressful again). The longer the
> > tetras have been in hard water, the more gentle you should be about
> > softening the water. IMO three days is about a mid-point (at 3 days, I
> > would soften only half as much as the difference between source &
> > destination).
> >
> > My own take on water is here
> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml , and I've found
many
> > credible web pages on water management, links here:
> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/Links/links.shtml#faqsites , hth.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> >
>
>

[Dan White]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
et.cable.rogers.com...
>
> "Dan White" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > OK, thanks to both for your ideas! I still need to get an ammonia
tester
> > before I can give all the parameters, but I did dose the tank with
Cycle.
> >
> > dwhite
>
> Dan,
>
> You might consider one of the SeaChem Ammonia Alerts that suction cup
inside
> the tank. They give you a visible indicator of your ammonia levels. I paid
> about $6 CDN for mine.
>

That sounds like a great idea, assuming it works! Thanks for the tip.

dwhite


> >
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Dan White" > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of
> calcium
> > > and
> > > > magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to
> > > bring
> > > > the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said
> that
> > > the
> > > > pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a
softening
> > > > affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the
> hardness
> > > is
> > > > not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not
> > > removing
> > > > any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).
> > > >
> > > > The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank
are
> > > not
> > > > eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now,
and
> > > seem
> > > > to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience
> > > says
> > > > they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said
> tetras
> > > are
> > > > finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water.
> > > The
> > > > hardness could be stressing them.
> > > >
> > > > Does all this sound about right? I'm finding that there is a fair
> > > amount of
> > > > conflicting information when it comes to this hobby.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for any comments,
> > > > dwhite
> > >
> > >
> > > Suggest you post your water parameters. If you think that your water
is
> > > slightly hard and is stressing your tetras, then playing with the
> > > chemistry can also create another stressor for them. If your water is
> > > only slightly hard and alkaline (and should be compared with the water
> > > they came from at the LFS), then you might be better to let them
> > > acclimate (and perhaps tweak the water down slowly). If you water is
> > > extremely hard, then ymmv, as the cure is as bad as the disease when
it
> > > comes to very small fish (if the water was hard enough to kill them,
> then
> > > the change to soft water will be as stressful again). The longer the
> > > tetras have been in hard water, the more gentle you should be about
> > > softening the water. IMO three days is about a mid-point (at 3 days,
I
> > > would soften only half as much as the difference between source &
> > > destination).
> > >
> > > My own take on water is here
> > > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml , and I've found
> many
> > > credible web pages on water management, links here:
> > > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/Links/links.shtml#faqsites , hth.
> > > --
> > > www.NetMax.tk
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Dan White wrote:

> I have very hard water, and as I recall hardness is composed of calcium and
> magnesium ions. After a discussion at the fish store, I decided to bring
> the pH down to the 7.0 or maybe lower range. The fish people said that the
> pH neutralizer contains some potassium, and that will have a softening
> affect on the water. It seems, then, that the presence of the hardness is
> not a problem, but more a lack of softness, so to speak. I'm not removing
> any hardness ions, just adding soft ones (K and maybe Na?).

Na and K ions have no effect on water hardness, but they increase the
total ion concentration, which may not be good for fishes, depending on
species. Many pH-adjusting solutions contain phosphoric acid, which is
an excelent buffer around pH 6.8, but encourages algal growth. Others
work with tannic (oak leaf extract) or humic acid (from peat), those can
be recognised from the yellow tint they add to the water.

> The subject came up because the black tetras I put in the new tank are not
> eating very much. They have been in the tank for 3 or 4 days now, and seem
> to act fine otherwise, they just don't eat much. My past experience says
> they are not long for this world at this rate. Anyhow they said tetras are
> finicky to start with, and the best thing to do is soften the water. The
> hardness could be stressing them.

Tetras are blackwater fish from the amazon and its tributaries. The
water there is very soft, in addition it is acidic from rotting plant
material (the tannic and humic acids mentioned above). Their
concentration is so high, that the water is tea-coloured, hence the
name.

There is "blackwater extract" on the market, but the two brands I tried
were both very high in phosphate.

Although tetras can slowly adapt to hard water conditions (I know a
place in the northern alps where neons are bread successfully in water
of 30 dH), for these fish soft water is definetly better.

That leaves you with two choices: You can keep fishes that like hard
water (guppies instead of tetras for example), or you can try to soften
your water.

The latter is more difficult and expensive. There are essentially two
ways to achieve it: peat filtering and reverse osmosis.

For peat filtering you need a bale of _Sphagnum_ (peat moss) peat from
your local garden centre, without any additions like fertiliser or
compost. Your fish shop will happily sell you "filter peat", but it is
much more expensive and no different from the stuff from your garden
centre. Filter your water through the stuff before you use it for water
changes, the mechanics has been discussed here several times. Peat adds
humic acids to the water, which form insoluble salts with calcium and
magnesium ions, hence reducing hardness. They also add buffering
capacity to the water in the slightly acidic range (pH 6.5-7.0), which
results in a more stable pH. Just make sure that you change the water in
your tank slowly, one little bit at a time.

Reverse osmosis is a process were water is pressed through a membrane
whose holes are big enough for water molecules, but too small for ions
(with their attached water shell) to pass through. RO water thus is like
distilled water. You can then adjust your hardness to the desired value
by mixing RO and tap water. Again your pH will also need adjustment,
this can be achieved by placing some peat into the filter.

[Dan White]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
>
> That leaves you with two choices: You can keep fishes that like hard
> water (guppies instead of tetras for example), or you can try to soften
> your water.
>
> The latter is more difficult and expensive. There are essentially two
> ways to achieve it: peat filtering and reverse osmosis.
>

Thanks for the informative response. The tetras seem to be doing fine now,
and I got 3 more for a total of 7. As far as softening the water, my father
had picked up a bottle of Discus water conditioner for pH adjustment, which
I believe contains the phosphate acids you mentioned. The bottle said that
it also softens the water by precipitating out Ca and Mg. This answers the
question. I don't think the LFS kids understand that the hardness is being
removed in this way. The water got a little cloudy for a few days (I assume
from hardness precip), and I had to skim white scum off the surface, but the
water cleared up by itself. There is also white calcium precipitate caking
on the heater (higher water temp = lower calcium solubility). I still have
to check the hardness to see if it has dropped appreciably. Also, I don't
like having to buy a bottle of this powder and use it every time I change
water, getting cloudy replacement water every time, too. So, maybe peat is
the answer. Can I make a bag of peat just like a bag of carbon and put it
in the filter? How long will a small bag of peat in the filter be able to
sequester hardness in 20 gallon water changes for a 55 gallon tank? If this
has all been discussed before I can do a google.

thanks,
dwhite

[Dick]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:26:56 GMT, "Dan White"
> wrote:

>
>"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> That leaves you with two choices: You can keep fishes that like hard
>> water (guppies instead of tetras for example), or you can try to soften
>> your water.
>>
>> The latter is more difficult and expensive. There are essentially two
>> ways to achieve it: peat filtering and reverse osmosis.
>>
>
>Thanks for the informative response. The tetras seem to be doing fine now,
>and I got 3 more for a total of 7. As far as softening the water, my father
>had picked up a bottle of Discus water conditioner for pH adjustment, which
>I believe contains the phosphate acids you mentioned. The bottle said that
>it also softens the water by precipitating out Ca and Mg. This answers the
>question. I don't think the LFS kids understand that the hardness is being
>removed in this way. The water got a little cloudy for a few days (I assume
>from hardness precip), and I had to skim white scum off the surface, but the
>water cleared up by itself. There is also white calcium precipitate caking
>on the heater (higher water temp = lower calcium solubility). I still have
>to check the hardness to see if it has dropped appreciably. Also, I don't
>like having to buy a bottle of this powder and use it every time I change
>water, getting cloudy replacement water every time, too. So, maybe peat is
>the answer. Can I make a bag of peat just like a bag of carbon and put it
>in the filter? How long will a small bag of peat in the filter be able to
>sequester hardness in 20 gallon water changes for a 55 gallon tank? If this
>has all been discussed before I can do a google.
>
>thanks,
>dwhite
>

I have Serpae and Bleeding Heart Tetras in water with a pH of 7.6 and
have had them for close to two years. Out of a combined total of 20
fish I have lost just one. They are colorful and very active. I
don't know anything about the Tetras natural environment, but I do
know my Tetras are doing well and that is on flake food only. I
change 20% of my water twice weekly using a Python to remove and
replace the water straight from the city water. Unless your water is
especially abnormal, I would think your problems are not due to
hardness.

dick

[Dan White]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...

> I have Serpae and Bleeding Heart Tetras in water with a pH of 7.6 and
> have had them for close to two years. Out of a combined total of 20
> fish I have lost just one. They are colorful and very active. I
> don't know anything about the Tetras natural environment, but I do
> know my Tetras are doing well and that is on flake food only. I
> change 20% of my water twice weekly using a Python to remove and
> replace the water straight from the city water. Unless your water is
> especially abnormal, I would think your problems are not due to
> hardness.
>

How hard is your water? Most of my tetras are eating ravenously now, but
some of them look picky and don't appear to eat much. It almost looks like
they like the red Tetra Min flakes but not the white ones! I've been
softening the water, and this may or may not have anything to do with their
eating. Maybe they have just gotten used to the new environment.

My water is very hard, and after reading all about how hardness can stress
certain fish, I'm looking for easy ways to reduce it. Maybe hardness isn't
really that critical?

thanks,
dwhite

[Dick]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:36:37 GMT, "Dan White"
> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>
>> I have Serpae and Bleeding Heart Tetras in water with a pH of 7.6 and
>> have had them for close to two years. Out of a combined total of 20
>> fish I have lost just one. They are colorful and very active. I
>> don't know anything about the Tetras natural environment, but I do
>> know my Tetras are doing well and that is on flake food only. I
>> change 20% of my water twice weekly using a Python to remove and
>> replace the water straight from the city water. Unless your water is
>> especially abnormal, I would think your problems are not due to
>> hardness.
>>
>
>How hard is your water? Most of my tetras are eating ravenously now, but
>some of them look picky and don't appear to eat much. It almost looks like
>they like the red Tetra Min flakes but not the white ones! I've been
>softening the water, and this may or may not have anything to do with their
>eating. Maybe they have just gotten used to the new environment.
>
>My water is very hard, and after reading all about how hardness can stress
>certain fish, I'm looking for easy ways to reduce it. Maybe hardness isn't
>really that critical?
>
>thanks,
>dwhite
>

I am not a chemist type and confuse terms, I was thinking pH when
responding. I don't know anything about hardness.

I have noticed some fish seem to seek one color. Can't say if they
are consistent. Some like to catch the flakes at the top, others like
them as they fall. It is funny to see baby fish attack a large flake
rather than smaller pieces. Also funny to see two fish go after the
same flake. The "losers" seem very gentlemanly about the whole
thing, but I have seen some "puzzled" looks.

The "Harlequin Raspora Cyprinids" seem the most finicky.

dick

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Dick wrote:


> I have noticed some fish seem to seek one color. Can't say if they
> are consistent. Some like to catch the flakes at the top, others like
> them as they fall. It is funny to see baby fish attack a large flake
> rather than smaller pieces. Also funny to see two fish go after the
> same flake. The "losers" seem very gentlemanly about the whole
> thing, but I have seen some "puzzled" looks.

The funniest thing I obseved was my catfish. Normally, they are supposed
to be bottom feeders, and I got him (her?) to keep the floor of my tank
clean. But the little critter was too impatient to wait for the food to
fall down, he would swimm up the side wall of the tank, bend over
backward so its mouth was just below the surface, belly and tail still
pressed to the glass wall, and then suck the food flakes in. He got
really practiced at this method of food procurement.

Shall no one claim that fishes don't have a character of their own!

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Dan White wrote:

> my father
> had picked up a bottle of Discus water conditioner for pH adjustment, which
> I believe contains the phosphate acids you mentioned. The bottle said that
> it also softens the water by precipitating out Ca and Mg. This answers the
> question.

Ca phosphate is only poorly soluble in water and forms a precipitate

>I don't think the LFS kids understand that the hardness is being
> removed in this way. The water got a little cloudy for a few days (I assume
> from hardness precip), and I had to skim white scum off the surface, but the
> water cleared up by itself.

which slowly sinks to the bottom of the tank.

> Can I make a bag of peat just like a bag of carbon and put it
> in the filter? How long will a small bag of peat in the filter be able to
> sequester hardness in 20 gallon water changes for a 55 gallon tank? If this
> has all been discussed before I can do a google.

There are many variables here, like hardness of water and composition of
peat. But once the humic acids in the peat are exausted, hardness of the
water will start to rise and this you can pick up by regular monitoring
with a test kit.

However, to start with I would add peat filtered water to the tank, to
controll the rate of pH drop. Once conditions are stable, the
peat-in-the-filter method is good, I have used it myself.