Bottle Biology: Guppies

[Ben Sharvy]

Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:

http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html

as previous discussed here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20040703204701.12238.00001246%40mb-m01.aol.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26q%3Dsharvy%2Bguppies

I'm kind of nervous about all the various things that could go wrong:
will the guppies have enough to eat, will the water have a good
balance of oxygen & CO2, etc. What warning signs should I tel the kids
to watch for, as they assess the ehalth of their ecosystems? I've
never kept fish in my life.

[NetMax]

"Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:
>
>
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
> as previous discussed here:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20040703204701.12238.00001246%40mb-m01.aol.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26q%3Dsharvy%2Bguppies
>
> I'm kind of nervous about all the various things that could go wrong:
> will the guppies have enough to eat, will the water have a good
> balance of oxygen & CO2, etc. What warning signs should I tel the kids
> to watch for, as they assess the ehalth of their ecosystems? I've
> never kept fish in my life.

Two guppies and 2 snails in a 2 litre bottle. I didn't read the
newsgroup discussion on this, but imho, I think that unless your Guppies
are tiny, they will not fair very well. Look for elevated respiration
and hanging just below the surface (low oxygen) which will be most
pronounced after a period of darkness (plant's consuming the O2). Try to
keep a stable temperature (68-74F), too hot and there is less O2 for the
fish, and too cold and the Guppies might expire.

I don't see mention of feeding the fish. Note that many municipalities
use chloramine (not chlorine) which does not evaporate as planned.
Whatever your results, I hope you publish them to encourage others to do
this differently (for example, replacing the 2 tropical-water Guppies
with a single (and smaller) cold-water White Cloud minnow.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Kay]

Ben Sharvy wrote:

> Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:
>
> http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
> as previous discussed here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20040703204701.12238.00001246%40mb-m01.aol.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26q%3Dsharvy%2Bguppies
>
> I'm kind of nervous about all the various things that could go wrong:
> will the guppies have enough to eat, will the water have a good
> balance of oxygen & CO2, etc. What warning signs should I tel the kids
> to watch for, as they assess the ehalth of their ecosystems? I've
> never kept fish in my life.

I think its to small and cruel to the animals involved.

Kay

[Sam]

Ben Sharvy should have said :
>
> Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:


I kept a guppy in a quart jar with some plants for two years. There were
two, but the first sign of problems was the second guppy floating upside
down.

As long as the plants get some light, and you don't have too many fish,
they should be fine.

--
Sam-I-Am
Insanity is forgetting to believe a few lies.


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[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Bottle Biology: Guppies
>From: "Sam"
>Date: 8/9/2004 7:19 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Ben Sharvy should have said :
>>
>> Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:
>
>
> I kept a guppy in a quart jar with some plants for two years. There were
>two, but the first sign of problems was the second guppy floating upside
>down.
>
> As long as the plants get some light, and you don't have too many fish,
>they should be fine.
>
>--
>Sam-I-Am
>Insanity is forgetting to believe a few lies.
>
>

In my opinion, that was simply cruel.

[Sam]

TYNK 7 should have said :
>
> In my opinion, that was simply cruel.

Only if you think any aquarium is cruel.

--
Sam-I-Am
The way to love anything is to realize it might be lost.


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[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Bottle Biology: Guppies
>From: "Sam"
>Date: 8/11/2004 10:53 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 should have said :
>>
>> In my opinion, that was simply cruel.
>
> Only if you think any aquarium is cruel.
>

Huh?
There's a HUGE difference between keeping a few Guppies in 30g tank VS. a Quart
jar for years.
Again...that was being cruel.

[Velvet]

Ben Sharvy wrote:

> Hi. We launched this project at the school on Monday:
>
> http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
> as previous discussed here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20040703204701.12238.00001246%40mb-m01.aol.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26q%3Dsharvy%2Bguppies
>
> I'm kind of nervous about all the various things that could go wrong:
> will the guppies have enough to eat, will the water have a good
> balance of oxygen & CO2, etc. What warning signs should I tel the kids
> to watch for, as they assess the ehalth of their ecosystems? I've
> never kept fish in my life.

One thing the webpage doesn't cover (and should) is what you expect them
to do with the bottle and contents when the experiment is over - they
should learn that there are responsibilities that come with having
creatures in non-wild environments.

If the bottles are being kept at school, then I guess it's down to you
to find homes for the creatures, but it does concern me that the web
page (which presumably can be read by anyone with the view of others
doing this 'experiment' too) makes no mention of what is expected to
happen to the experiment once the four weeks are up.

I'm not going to comment on the cruel or not other than to say I think
you should have done this with a single setup and observed the results
yourself before letting your students loose on it with lots of sets.

That way, if it's a non-starter you would be able to revise or decide
against doing it, rather than finding out you've got a dozen or more
bottles with fish all going belly up.

--


Velvet

[Sam]

TYNK 7 should have said :
>
>> Subject: Re: Bottle Biology: Guppies
>> From: "Sam"
>> Date: 8/11/2004 10:53 AM Central Daylight Time
>> Message-id: >
>>
>> TYNK 7 should have said :
>>>
>>> In my opinion, that was simply cruel.
>>
>> Only if you think any aquarium is cruel.
>>
>
> Huh?
> There's a HUGE difference between keeping a few Guppies in 30g tank
> VS. a Quart jar for years.

No, not really. The fish had room to swim (about a half gallon per
inch), plenty of food, more vegative interest than most tanks and stayed so
small that there was no crowding. After two years one died and I removed the
other. I defy you to show that guppies have enough brains to even consider
their condition. Since they cannot, anything that does not cause pain is not
cruel.

> Again...that was being cruel.


I am sorry that you think it was cruel, but you are wrong. Neither the
intention, nor the result, was cruelty. However, your persistent and public
accusation against my character is cruel.

--
Sam-I-Am
The conquest of the earth, which mostly means the taking it away from
those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than
ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much.


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[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Sam wrote:

> No, not really. The fish had room to swim (about a half gallon per
> inch),

standard for small aquarium fish is > 1 gal per inch

> I defy you to show that guppies have enough brains to even consider
> their condition. Since they cannot, anything that does not cause pain is not
> cruel.

There is no way for us to say what other species find cruel, as the
brain structures of, say, man and fish are too different. Thus the only
recourse we have is to avoid conditions that might conceivably cause any
form of discomfort. This includes crowding, poor water quality, presnece
of incompatible fish, absence of mates (for tribal fish), wrong
temperatures, and so on.

There may be legal rules that apply, here in Germany the Ministery for
Consumer Protection (that is responsible for animal health) has
published minimum standards for keeping aquarium fishes. Serious
deviations can result in criminal proceedings (cruelty to animals).

[Sam]

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum should have said :
>
> Sam wrote:
>
>> No, not really. The fish had room to swim (about a half gallon
>> per inch),
>
> standard for small aquarium fish is > 1 gal per inch

One gal per inch is based on unplanted tanks and is suggested for
reasons of waste buildup and oxygen use, not swimming room. My fish never
got bigger than 1/4 or 3/8 of an inch and had more than 6 inches to swim in.

The fact that they lived for two years in a sealed jar is evidence that
they were not too crowded. I don't know what killed the one, but the other
is still alive, as far as I know, in one of my ponds.

--
Sam-I-Am
Self-imposed ignorance should disgust everyone. - Magic


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[Happy'Cam'per]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...

> There may be legal rules that apply, here in Germany the Ministery for
> Consumer Protection (that is responsible for animal health) has
> published minimum standards for keeping aquarium fishes. Serious
> deviations can result in criminal proceedings (cruelty to animals).

WOW, Thats brilliant. Here in South Africa the SPCA has just been on their
soap box regarding the way that LFS's are treating and selling Siamese
Fighters, its fantastic to see that there are people out there who genuinely
care for the needs of their animals! Nice one.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**