Seem to be doing everything right... fish keep dying

[Hummer]

I've just purchased and setup my second aquarium 20 (canadian)
gallons. The setup went smoothly and I had the tank running for about
two days with some new plants and simple decorations for 48 hours
before introducing any fish.

I installed an undergravel filter and a fluval 150 for the filtering
piece, as well as a heater for temp regulation etc...

In my passed experience (had a 10 gallon), I was really succesful with
this same setup and one of the first things (upon recommendation) to
get my cycle going more quickly was to steal some of the water and
bottom bacteria from the Pet Store (they supplied a big bag), and
stock the aquarium with some cheap feeder fish.

This time, with the exception of adding real plants, I followed the
exact same course of action. I started with about 15 (really small)
feeder goldfish, some tank water from a healthy pet store tank, and of
course my live plants.

I've been monitoring the PH (around 7) and Ammonia levels daily
(practically none) and have kept the tank a steady 75 degrees, however
my fish KEEP ON DYING.

At first, I thought this normal as feeders are usually unhealthy and
overstocked to begin with, however everyday since purchase I've had on
average 2-3 deaths. The fish seem healthy enough, eating swimming,
high energy, however they keep on dying slowly..... one at a time.

I've bought every test I can think of to check the water... could it
be something related to all the new equipment which may not have been
fully rinsed ? Would the fish not be showing clear signs of desease
before expiring if that were the case? Could the plants I put in be
having some kind of effect.

thanks to anyone who could help with this???

[Justin Boucher]

What were the results of all those tests you have? You said ammonia was low
but never mentioned nitrite. I would like to say that just using old tank
water from an established tank wouldn't do the trick for a quick cycle. You
need the bacteria and that stuff is in the filter or gravel. There isn't
enough of it in the water column to amount much to anything.

With that in mind, your tank may still be cycling. Are you doing anything
about oxygen? Live plants will provide oxygen to a tank but they also
consume it at night. A moderate to highly stocked tank with some live
plants could easily dip down to deadly low oxygen levels by morning. After
the lights come back on, it could take hours before the oxygen level gets
anywhere near the fish need to survive.

I would test your water again and take specific reading for ammonia, nitrite
and pH. If you have access to an oxygen test kit and suspect the oxygen
levels after what I had said, I would test that as well. Keep in mind that
oxygen levels will be at their lowest in the morning before the plants get
any light to start the new day.

Also, check the amount and kind of lighting you have for your plants.
Insufficient lighting would not allow them to produce well and that could
mean a downward spiral for your oxygen levels with more fish breathing than
the plants can produce.

Justin

"Hummer" > wrote in message
om...
> I've just purchased and setup my second aquarium 20 (canadian)
> gallons. The setup went smoothly and I had the tank running for about
> two days with some new plants and simple decorations for 48 hours
> before introducing any fish.
>
> I installed an undergravel filter and a fluval 150 for the filtering
> piece, as well as a heater for temp regulation etc...
>
> In my passed experience (had a 10 gallon), I was really succesful with
> this same setup and one of the first things (upon recommendation) to
> get my cycle going more quickly was to steal some of the water and
> bottom bacteria from the Pet Store (they supplied a big bag), and
> stock the aquarium with some cheap feeder fish.
>
> This time, with the exception of adding real plants, I followed the
> exact same course of action. I started with about 15 (really small)
> feeder goldfish, some tank water from a healthy pet store tank, and of
> course my live plants.
>
> I've been monitoring the PH (around 7) and Ammonia levels daily
> (practically none) and have kept the tank a steady 75 degrees, however
> my fish KEEP ON DYING.
>
> At first, I thought this normal as feeders are usually unhealthy and
> overstocked to begin with, however everyday since purchase I've had on
> average 2-3 deaths. The fish seem healthy enough, eating swimming,
> high energy, however they keep on dying slowly..... one at a time.
>
> I've bought every test I can think of to check the water... could it
> be something related to all the new equipment which may not have been
> fully rinsed ? Would the fish not be showing clear signs of desease
> before expiring if that were the case? Could the plants I put in be
> having some kind of effect.
>
> thanks to anyone who could help with this???

[NetMax]

"Hummer" > wrote in message
om...
> I've just purchased and setup my second aquarium 20 (canadian)
> gallons. The setup went smoothly and I had the tank running for about
> two days with some new plants and simple decorations for 48 hours
> before introducing any fish.
>
> I installed an undergravel filter and a fluval 150 for the filtering
> piece, as well as a heater for temp regulation etc...
>
> In my passed experience (had a 10 gallon), I was really succesful with
> this same setup and one of the first things (upon recommendation) to
> get my cycle going more quickly was to steal some of the water and
> bottom bacteria from the Pet Store (they supplied a big bag), and
> stock the aquarium with some cheap feeder fish.
>
> This time, with the exception of adding real plants, I followed the
> exact same course of action. I started with about 15 (really small)
> feeder goldfish, some tank water from a healthy pet store tank, and of
> course my live plants.
>
> I've been monitoring the PH (around 7) and Ammonia levels daily
> (practically none) and have kept the tank a steady 75 degrees, however
> my fish KEEP ON DYING.
>
> At first, I thought this normal as feeders are usually unhealthy and
> overstocked to begin with, however everyday since purchase I've had on
> average 2-3 deaths. The fish seem healthy enough, eating swimming,
> high energy, however they keep on dying slowly..... one at a time.
>
> I've bought every test I can think of to check the water... could it
> be something related to all the new equipment which may not have been
> fully rinsed ? Would the fish not be showing clear signs of desease
> before expiring if that were the case? Could the plants I put in be
> having some kind of effect.
>
> thanks to anyone who could help with this???

Check your NO2 and your gH for an extreme from where you bought the fish.
Otherwise you just started with the most mistreated and malnutritioned
fish in the industry and are using water from the potentially most
poisoned environment in retail, so don't be too surprised *sorry*.

Small fish will sometimes show almost no signs of stress before dying. A
classic example is the Neon tetra which takes about 22 minutes to go from
happy healthy to dead (on a bad day ;~). This is especially true from
transport stress and water shock. Go visit your LFS and check 1) any
fish alive from the tank you got gravel/water from (check if they are all
different fish in that tank), and 2) check if they have any of those
feeders left. If you have to use LFS gravel/filters/water (and the water
is basically useless anyways), try to get it from the African cichlid
tanks. For whatever reason, these tanks get less diseases and
medications. Around here, the worst tanks are the livebearer tanks.

Hopefully at least one GF will survive in your tank. Then you just need
to determine if it was because the disease is gone, or the 'one' is now a
carrier. This gives you a 50/50 chance, but if they all die, I'd be a
bit more depressed about what to do. That's when you might want to look
into fishless cycling.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Hummer]

Thanks for the info Justin,

I have yet to test the Nitrite levels in the tank. The water I
procured from the pet-store consisted of a large quantity of the
decomposing waste etc.. found at the bottom of their tank. I
specifically asked for this as, I knew (or hoped) it would contain the
'bacterial mix' needed to jump-start the cycle in my tank.

I will take your advice and pick up a nitrite test kit... There are
so many variables that could affect this. It seems strange that the
fish should be dying so slowly one at a time. I would assume if there
was a water problem that all fish would have probably perished within
the first couple of days.

As for the Oxygen, the undergravel filter contains two Aquafiz
bubblers hooked up to an air pump, which runs for around 16 hours a
day. I'll see if I can hold of an oxygen test kit -- I assume the pet
store would carry this?

My primary concern is that they may be deseased or have some parasite.
Do you know if this is very common in feeder fish purchased from pet
stores? Would there be tell-tale signs other than just the 'belly up'
outcome displayed (ie. lesions or markings)




"Justin Boucher" > wrote in message >...
> What were the results of all those tests you have? You said ammonia was low
> but never mentioned nitrite. I would like to say that just using old tank
> water from an established tank wouldn't do the trick for a quick cycle. You
> need the bacteria and that stuff is in the filter or gravel. There isn't
> enough of it in the water column to amount much to anything.
>
> With that in mind, your tank may still be cycling. Are you doing anything
> about oxygen? Live plants will provide oxygen to a tank but they also
> consume it at night. A moderate to highly stocked tank with some live
> plants could easily dip down to deadly low oxygen levels by morning. After
> the lights come back on, it could take hours before the oxygen level gets
> anywhere near the fish need to survive.
>
> I would test your water again and take specific reading for ammonia, nitrite
> and pH. If you have access to an oxygen test kit and suspect the oxygen
> levels after what I had said, I would test that as well. Keep in mind that
> oxygen levels will be at their lowest in the morning before the plants get
> any light to start the new day.
>
> Also, check the amount and kind of lighting you have for your plants.
> Insufficient lighting would not allow them to produce well and that could
> mean a downward spiral for your oxygen levels with more fish breathing than
> the plants can produce.
>
> Justin
>

[Justin Boucher]

One possible sign of high nitrite levels could be fish gasping for air at
the water surface. Nitrite inhibits the gills ability to collect oxygen.
Even though enough oxygen may be present in the tank. The large amount of
waste you got from the LFS may have simply been just that. Waste that has
not properly decomposed and was really just starting. This would mean that
you may have added a huge amount of ammonia to your tank and a nitrite spike
quickly followed. The nitrite spike for a cycling tank is typically shorter
than the ammonia climb and fall. I've had it where ammonia took 6 weeks to
rise and fall but nitrite took just over one week.

It is strange that the fish would be dying slowly over time. I recently
went through an episode where ick wiped out my sal****er tank fish. I had
one fish die each day. Total time from apparent health to death was
anywhere from 30 to 15 hours. But only one fish at a time. It sounds
unusual for ick to do this, but I couldn't find any other causes and the
fish did develop ick spots rapidly throughout that time frame. Perhaps there
was just too much of the parasite that managed to grow in the tank.

If you're aireating your tank with airstones or bubblers, the oxygen test
kit may not help that much. The air pump and bubbles will help maintain a
good gas mixture. You indicated that you had live plants and I just assumed
that you weren't using air pumps or stones. They remove CO2 real well and
the plants use that to grow and flourish. I turned off the venturi valves
on my tanks when I added live plants and once the plants were established, I
don't need to concern myself with them much anymore except the regular
trimming. Plus the fish are much happier with real plants than with plastic
ones.

I'm not familiar with any disease or parasite that could produce the results
you're speaking about. I told you about my sal****er ick episode, but
typically a disease will show some types of symptoms. I do know that feeder
goldfish are possibly the dirtiest fish you get. They aren't cared for much
at all (they're cheap) and always severely overstocked. Honestly, I
wouldn't even use them as feeders. You could easily bring whatever they
have and give it to your prized Oscar or other predatory fish.

Justin
PS: How I fixed the sal****er ick: No fish, 85 degrees, UV sterilizer on
full blast, 3 weeks. Tested the waters with cheap damsels and everything
was fine. Now back to restocking my Butterflies and Angels.

"Hummer" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks for the info Justin,
>
> I have yet to test the Nitrite levels in the tank. The water I
> procured from the pet-store consisted of a large quantity of the
> decomposing waste etc.. found at the bottom of their tank. I
> specifically asked for this as, I knew (or hoped) it would contain the
> 'bacterial mix' needed to jump-start the cycle in my tank.
>
> I will take your advice and pick up a nitrite test kit... There are
> so many variables that could affect this. It seems strange that the
> fish should be dying so slowly one at a time. I would assume if there
> was a water problem that all fish would have probably perished within
> the first couple of days.
>
> As for the Oxygen, the undergravel filter contains two Aquafiz
> bubblers hooked up to an air pump, which runs for around 16 hours a
> day. I'll see if I can hold of an oxygen test kit -- I assume the pet
> store would carry this?
>
> My primary concern is that they may be deseased or have some parasite.
> Do you know if this is very common in feeder fish purchased from pet
> stores? Would there be tell-tale signs other than just the 'belly up'
> outcome displayed (ie. lesions or markings)
>
>
>
>
> "Justin Boucher" > wrote in message
>...
> > What were the results of all those tests you have? You said ammonia was
low
> > but never mentioned nitrite. I would like to say that just using old
tank
> > water from an established tank wouldn't do the trick for a quick cycle.
You
> > need the bacteria and that stuff is in the filter or gravel. There
isn't
> > enough of it in the water column to amount much to anything.
> >
> > With that in mind, your tank may still be cycling. Are you doing
anything
> > about oxygen? Live plants will provide oxygen to a tank but they also
> > consume it at night. A moderate to highly stocked tank with some live
> > plants could easily dip down to deadly low oxygen levels by morning.
After
> > the lights come back on, it could take hours before the oxygen level
gets
> > anywhere near the fish need to survive.
> >
> > I would test your water again and take specific reading for ammonia,
nitrite
> > and pH. If you have access to an oxygen test kit and suspect the oxygen
> > levels after what I had said, I would test that as well. Keep in mind
that
> > oxygen levels will be at their lowest in the morning before the plants
get
> > any light to start the new day.
> >
> > Also, check the amount and kind of lighting you have for your plants.
> > Insufficient lighting would not allow them to produce well and that
could
> > mean a downward spiral for your oxygen levels with more fish breathing
than
> > the plants can produce.
> >
> > Justin
> >

[Dick]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:40:56 GMT, "Justin Boucher" >
wrote:

>One possible sign of high nitrite levels could be fish gasping for air at
>the water surface. Nitrite inhibits the gills ability to collect oxygen.
>Even though enough oxygen may be present in the tank. The large amount of
>waste you got from the LFS may have simply been just that. Waste that has
>not properly decomposed and was really just starting. This would mean that
>you may have added a huge amount of ammonia to your tank and a nitrite spike
>quickly followed. The nitrite spike for a cycling tank is typically shorter
>than the ammonia climb and fall. I've had it where ammonia took 6 weeks to
>rise and fall but nitrite took just over one week.
>
>It is strange that the fish would be dying slowly over time. I recently
>went through an episode where ick wiped out my sal****er tank fish. I had
>one fish die each day. Total time from apparent health to death was
>anywhere from 30 to 15 hours. But only one fish at a time. It sounds
>unusual for ick to do this, but I couldn't find any other causes and the
>fish did develop ick spots rapidly throughout that time frame. Perhaps there
>was just too much of the parasite that managed to grow in the tank.
>
>If you're aireating your tank with airstones or bubblers, the oxygen test
>kit may not help that much. The air pump and bubbles will help maintain a
>good gas mixture. You indicated that you had live plants and I just assumed
>that you weren't using air pumps or stones. They remove CO2 real well and
>the plants use that to grow and flourish. I turned off the venturi valves
>on my tanks when I added live plants and once the plants were established, I
>don't need to concern myself with them much anymore except the regular
>trimming. Plus the fish are much happier with real plants than with plastic
>ones.
>
>I'm not familiar with any disease or parasite that could produce the results
>you're speaking about. I told you about my sal****er ick episode, but
>typically a disease will show some types of symptoms. I do know that feeder
>goldfish are possibly the dirtiest fish you get. They aren't cared for much
>at all (they're cheap) and always severely overstocked. Honestly, I
>wouldn't even use them as feeders. You could easily bring whatever they
>have and give it to your prized Oscar or other predatory fish.
>
>Justin
>PS: How I fixed the sal****er ick: No fish, 85 degrees, UV sterilizer on
>full blast, 3 weeks. Tested the waters with cheap damsels and everything
>was fine. Now back to restocking my Butterflies and Angels.
>
>"Hummer" > wrote in message
om...
>> Thanks for the info Justin,
>>
>> I have yet to test the Nitrite levels in the tank. The water I
>> procured from the pet-store consisted of a large quantity of the
>> decomposing waste etc.. found at the bottom of their tank. I
>> specifically asked for this as, I knew (or hoped) it would contain the
>> 'bacterial mix' needed to jump-start the cycle in my tank.
>>
>> I will take your advice and pick up a nitrite test kit... There are
>> so many variables that could affect this. It seems strange that the
>> fish should be dying so slowly one at a time. I would assume if there
>> was a water problem that all fish would have probably perished within
>> the first couple of days.
>>
>> As for the Oxygen, the undergravel filter contains two Aquafiz
>> bubblers hooked up to an air pump, which runs for around 16 hours a
>> day. I'll see if I can hold of an oxygen test kit -- I assume the pet
>> store would carry this?
>>
>> My primary concern is that they may be deseased or have some parasite.
>> Do you know if this is very common in feeder fish purchased from pet
>> stores? Would there be tell-tale signs other than just the 'belly up'
>> outcome displayed (ie. lesions or markings)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Justin Boucher" > wrote in message
>...
>> > What were the results of all those tests you have? You said ammonia was
>low
>> > but never mentioned nitrite. I would like to say that just using old
>tank
>> > water from an established tank wouldn't do the trick for a quick cycle.
>You
>> > need the bacteria and that stuff is in the filter or gravel. There
>isn't
>> > enough of it in the water column to amount much to anything.
>> >
>> > With that in mind, your tank may still be cycling. Are you doing
>anything
>> > about oxygen? Live plants will provide oxygen to a tank but they also
>> > consume it at night. A moderate to highly stocked tank with some live
>> > plants could easily dip down to deadly low oxygen levels by morning.
>After
>> > the lights come back on, it could take hours before the oxygen level
>gets
>> > anywhere near the fish need to survive.
>> >
>> > I would test your water again and take specific reading for ammonia,
>nitrite
>> > and pH. If you have access to an oxygen test kit and suspect the oxygen
>> > levels after what I had said, I would test that as well. Keep in mind
>that
>> > oxygen levels will be at their lowest in the morning before the plants
>get
>> > any light to start the new day.
>> >
>> > Also, check the amount and kind of lighting you have for your plants.
>> > Insufficient lighting would not allow them to produce well and that
>could
>> > mean a downward spiral for your oxygen levels with more fish breathing
>than
>> > the plants can produce.
>> >
>> > Justin
>> >
>

I have not seen ich kill, but then weakened fish are apt to get ich.
New fish in uncycled tank may be picking up the ich introduced with
the fish store water. The fish maybe were weak to begin with and too
many introduced to the uncycled tank. I have never had gold fish nor
have I added material from foreign tank other than plants and fish. I
have to order everything over the internet, so the fish arrive in some
kind of treated water. I don't think I would ever take material from
a fish store tank as they are exposed to other unknown sources. I
have cycled 5 tanks in the last two years and did it the old fashion
way, a few hardy fish, a few plants, limited feeding and time. I
aireate all my tanks.

dick

dick