Tank maintenance question.

[Mark Cooper]

I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an older
tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF, and you
do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?


Thanks,
Mark

[Victor Martinez]

Mark Cooper wrote:
> tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF, and you
> do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?

Not if you have rooted plants.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
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[Dick]

On 28 Aug 2004 01:35:29 GMT, Mark Cooper > wrote:

>I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an older
>tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF, and you
>do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
>
>
>Thanks,
>Mark

I have a 75 gallon tank that has been set up for 20 months and the
fish and plants are doing well. I don't vacuum the bottom, but I
change 20% of water twice weekly. Also I run two Marineland 330
filters without charcoal.

I know 20 months is a short time to have a tank set up, but just
putting in my 2 cents worth or what ever it is worth.

dick

[NetMax]

"Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
.. .
> I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
older
> tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF, and
you
> do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Mark

Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to an
extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth or
accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks collect
mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing noxious
gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown. The
larger your fish, the more interested you are in keeping the detritus
under control and the more likely the need for periodic tear downs. Note
that a tear down can just be removing the fish, then rocks and then
gravel vacuuming, drop water level, stir, drain rinse repeat refill and
let stabilize for a couple of days. I don't always remove the gravel to
wash it, as that is a bit excessive (for me) unless I'm changing the
gravel entirely (never store dirty gravel ;~).

At the other extreme, a well planted tank with a low fish-load could
theoretically run without a tear down. Here the reasons for a tear down
are voluntary and often cosmetic (control or change growth), bio-tope
changes, catching all the fish etc.

Heavily rocked tanks typically get some type of a tear down every 12 to
24 months in my home. Heavily planted tanks tend to run longer, though
many tanks tend to get annually tear downs just because I want to try new
things :o). For your tank, try gravel vacuuming towards the back or
under rocks to get a feel for how much is accumulating undetected. This
will give you a sense of whether a tear down is needed or if it remains
manageable with regular maintenance. If you are using UGFs, I would
annually siphon through the risers, but I otherwise treated my UGF tanks
similarly to my non-UGF tanks. UGF tanks can develop a fine brown 'dust'
on the glass bottom which I basically ignored as inconsequential. I'm
more worried about the build-up in the substrate.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mark Cooper]

"NetMax" > wrote in news:9C2Yc.35429$DG.2005568
@news20.bellglobal.com:

> "Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
> older
>> tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF,
and
> you
>> do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>
> Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
> water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
> accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to an
> extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth
or
> accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks
collect
> mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
> other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing noxious
> gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown.
(snip)

I have a 75 gallon with Malawi cichlids which has a great deal of rock as
you might expect. What I have done in the past is remove the rock and
vacuum where it was, getting a lot of refuse in the process. With a
little care, I was able to avoid getting a lot of crud stirred up in the
water. This tank was started at X-mas and has undergone this process
twice. Each time I did not remove the fish, but did not notice any
negative effects. Perhaps the amount of debris had not built up to
dangerous levels yet?


Thanks,
Mark

[NetMax]

"Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
.. .
> "NetMax" > wrote in
news:9C2Yc.35429$DG.2005568
> @news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > "Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
> > older
> >> tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF,
> and
> > you
> >> do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Mark
> >
> > Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
> > water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
> > accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to
an
> > extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth
> or
> > accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks
> collect
> > mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
> > other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing
noxious
> > gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown.
> (snip)
>
> I have a 75 gallon with Malawi cichlids which has a great deal of rock
as
> you might expect. What I have done in the past is remove the rock and
> vacuum where it was, getting a lot of refuse in the process. With a
> little care, I was able to avoid getting a lot of crud stirred up in
the
> water. This tank was started at X-mas and has undergone this process
> twice. Each time I did not remove the fish, but did not notice any
> negative effects. Perhaps the amount of debris had not built up to
> dangerous levels yet?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Mark


I can't see anything wrong with your maintenance routine. Just keep in
mind that as fish grow bigger, you feed them more, so your maintenance
should keep pace. Also, check your kH and NO3 periodically. If you find
your kH going low or your NO3 going very high, these are 2 indicators of
old tank syndrome. If your kH is steady (and above 6dkH) and your NO3
stays low with regular water changes (ie: under 20-30ppm with 20% weekly
water changes), then your routine sounds fine to me.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Flatspin]

Mark Cooper wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote in news:9C2Yc.35429$DG.2005568
> @news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>
>>"Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
>>
>>older
>>
>>>tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF,
>
> and
>
>>you
>>
>>>do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Mark
>>
>>Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
>>water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
>>accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to an
>>extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth
>
> or
>
>>accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks
>
> collect
>
>>mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
>>other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing noxious
>>gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown.
>
> (snip)
>
> I have a 75 gallon with Malawi cichlids which has a great deal of rock as
> you might expect. What I have done in the past is remove the rock and
> vacuum where it was, getting a lot of refuse in the process. With a
> little care, I was able to avoid getting a lot of crud stirred up in the
> water. This tank was started at X-mas and has undergone this process
> twice. Each time I did not remove the fish, but did not notice any
> negative effects. Perhaps the amount of debris had not built up to
> dangerous levels yet?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
Next time you take the rocks out, buy some PVC and cut it into short
lengths the same length as the gravel depth. Place the PVC on its end
and place the rocks on top, PVC supporting the rocks weight. I've read
that since this keeps the actual rocks weight off the gravel, some of
your mainteance critters may be able to access and clean the gravel
under the rocks since it's not weighted down.

[Christy84065]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...
> "Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
> older
> > tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF, and
> you
> > do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
>
> Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
> water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
> accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to an
> extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth or
> accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks collect
> mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
> other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing noxious
> gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown. The
> larger your fish, the more interested you are in keeping the detritus
> under control and the more likely the need for periodic tear downs. Note
> that a tear down can just be removing the fish, then rocks and then
> gravel vacuuming, drop water level, stir, drain rinse repeat refill and
> let stabilize for a couple of days. I don't always remove the gravel to
> wash it, as that is a bit excessive (for me) unless I'm changing the
> gravel entirely (never store dirty gravel ;~).
>
> At the other extreme, a well planted tank with a low fish-load could
> theoretically run without a tear down. Here the reasons for a tear down
> are voluntary and often cosmetic (control or change growth), bio-tope
> changes, catching all the fish etc.
>
> Heavily rocked tanks typically get some type of a tear down every 12 to
> 24 months in my home. Heavily planted tanks tend to run longer, though
> many tanks tend to get annually tear downs just because I want to try new
> things :o). For your tank, try gravel vacuuming towards the back or
> under rocks to get a feel for how much is accumulating undetected. This
> will give you a sense of whether a tear down is needed or if it remains
> manageable with regular maintenance. If you are using UGFs, I would
> annually siphon through the risers, but I otherwise treated my UGF tanks
> similarly to my non-UGF tanks. UGF tanks can develop a fine brown 'dust'
> on the glass bottom which I basically ignored as inconsequential. I'm
> more worried about the build-up in the substrate.

What you said here Netmax gave me an idea I guess, maybe more of an
understanding. I move the rocks and plants maybe more than I should.
I have several female guppies and platys that are having babies about
once a week, so I have to get the babies and most of the time the
plants and decorations are in the way. I have just realized that when
I move those things as often as I do that maybe this is too stresfull
on my fish, not just for the immidiate time but in time to come as
well. They might be more trusting of me if I interferred less in
their envioronment. Maybe I need to weigh the benefits of getting
those babies to stressing out the fish I already have.

[NetMax]

"Christy84065" > wrote in message
om...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Mark Cooper" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > I have occasionally seen posts from folks who have stripped down an
> > older
> > > tank to clean out the gravel/substrate. If you're not using an UGF,
and
> > you
> > > do regular deep vacuuming of the gravel, is that really neccessary?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mark
> >
> > Usually yes, but the time interval depends the ratios of bio-load to
> > water and/or bio-load to plant growth, and the depth of gravel and
> > accessibility for gravel vacuuming. If any of these ratios were to
an
> > extreme, then a periodic tear down is indicated, and the gravel depth
or
> > accessibility will influence this interval. Heavily rocked tanks
collect
> > mulm underneath the stones which cannot be removed by any other means
> > other than lifting the rocks, and due to the risk of releasing
noxious
> > gases, this is either done very cautiously, or during a teardown.
The
> > larger your fish, the more interested you are in keeping the detritus
> > under control and the more likely the need for periodic tear downs.
Note
> > that a tear down can just be removing the fish, then rocks and then
> > gravel vacuuming, drop water level, stir, drain rinse repeat refill
and
> > let stabilize for a couple of days. I don't always remove the gravel
to
> > wash it, as that is a bit excessive (for me) unless I'm changing the
> > gravel entirely (never store dirty gravel ;~).
> >
> > At the other extreme, a well planted tank with a low fish-load could
> > theoretically run without a tear down. Here the reasons for a tear
down
> > are voluntary and often cosmetic (control or change growth), bio-tope
> > changes, catching all the fish etc.
> >
> > Heavily rocked tanks typically get some type of a tear down every 12
to
> > 24 months in my home. Heavily planted tanks tend to run longer,
though
> > many tanks tend to get annually tear downs just because I want to try
new
> > things :o). For your tank, try gravel vacuuming towards the back or
> > under rocks to get a feel for how much is accumulating undetected.
This
> > will give you a sense of whether a tear down is needed or if it
remains
> > manageable with regular maintenance. If you are using UGFs, I would
> > annually siphon through the risers, but I otherwise treated my UGF
tanks
> > similarly to my non-UGF tanks. UGF tanks can develop a fine brown
'dust'
> > on the glass bottom which I basically ignored as inconsequential.
I'm
> > more worried about the build-up in the substrate.
>
> What you said here Netmax gave me an idea I guess, maybe more of an
> understanding. I move the rocks and plants maybe more than I should.
> I have several female guppies and platys that are having babies about
> once a week, so I have to get the babies and most of the time the
> plants and decorations are in the way. I have just realized that when
> I move those things as often as I do that maybe this is too stresfull
> on my fish, not just for the immidiate time but in time to come as
> well. They might be more trusting of me if I interferred less in
> their envioronment. Maybe I need to weigh the benefits of getting
> those babies to stressing out the fish I already have.

On one hand I agree and often recommend that new fish be left undisturbed
for about 3 months so they acclimate to their environment with less fear.
Having said that, some fish are more oblivious to change than others. I
find that carnivores and night feeders are more sensitive to changes in
their environment, while schooling & schoaling fish are more adaptable
(provided there isn't a huge difference in the before & after). Perhaps
the carnivores have a longer memory and/or the control of their
environment is more important to them. Night feeders obviously have to
keep adapting to the changes in the nooks and crannies. Fish like common
livebearers don't seem anywhere near as perturbed by gentle changes,
almost as if they shrug their shoulders and think "ok, so now that rock
is there instead" while investigating every loose bit of stuff dislodged
by the rock's move ;~). An Oscar might spend a day or two pouting on his
side if you re-arranged 'his' rocks.

If you are worried about the fry, a few square inches of marbles close
together will provide good shelter for the first day or two needed. Place
them up towards the back of the tank, so you have less detritus
collecting around the marbles (can be hard to gravel vac). That and
bushy plants are great fry shelter (I particularly like floating Hornwort
for this as many moms start delivery at the surface).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Christy84065]

I feel really bad. I have three platties, six guppies, 1 dwarf
african frog and two cory catfish in my main tank. The other night I
came home from work I went by to check on my fishies ,as I always do,
and the condition of the Main tank sent me into a panic! It was
completely brown in color and I could barely see my fish. Aparantly,
my little boy wanting to help, had dumped the entire bottle of Fry
food and the entire bottle of freeze dried blood worms into the tank.
I was able to move all the fish in that tank into the baby tank and
had to leave the tank for the night and deal with it in the morning.
I had to completely redesign that tank... took out all rocks and
plants ... and hosed down the rocks to completely remove all that
extra food and let the newly filled tank set for about 24 hours and
took some water from the baby tank to help with the change. Then
after the tank and water were ready, I moved all the fish back into
the main tank ... and ever since then I rarely see my platties ... my
guppies are resilient enough that I see them out all the time. The
platties have a really nice hiding place now. I like to see ,my fish
but I wonder if I have completely destroyed their confidence in me.