Do we need a protein skimmer

[Dale and Helen]

We are just setting up a reef tank (not yet stabilised - installed
less than a week ago) It is a Juwel 240 (with integral filter), 215
litres (est real volume), Fluval 204 external filter (with standard
media). We are new to marine fish keeping and have been reading a lot
about protein skimmers. Some dealers say we need one, some don't. How
do we assess whether one is required or not? If we need one, should we
be installing it now or after the tank is stabilised/populated?

[robin.gordon1]

my thoughts are that unless you are very very experienced then I would
strongly recommend a protein skimmer. go for one that's recommended for
twice the volume of your tank to be sure. if your not drilling the tank
then I suggest a hang-on type rather than an in-tank solution. it may mean
a modification of your hood it does mean that you can put as powerful a
skimmer as you can afford and will really be a lot better than any internal
as far as skimming efficiency goes. shop around.

Robin

[Toni]

"Dale and Helen" > wrote in message
om...
> We are just setting up a reef tank (not yet stabilised - installed
> less than a week ago) It is a Juwel 240 (with integral filter), 215
> litres (est real volume), Fluval 204 external filter (with standard
> media). We are new to marine fish keeping and have been reading a lot
> about protein skimmers. Some dealers say we need one, some don't. How
> do we assess whether one is required or not? If we need one, should we
> be installing it now or after the tank is stabilised/populated?



I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in for it.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/reef.htm

[Billy]

"Toni" > wrote in message
. ..

|
|
|
| I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
for it.
|


Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
skimmer you can afford.

billy


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004

[Dale & H]

> ... trade the cannister filter in for it.
>
> ... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
> tank,

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?

Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
existing filter setup.

Help!!

[Phil Krasnostein]

D&H

Have a look at this link. It is quite a good explanation of the function of
a skimmer -- it is removing dissolved organics, and therefore reducing the
load on the biological filtration system.

Phil

http://www.algone.com/protein_skimmer.htm


"Dale & H" > wrote in message
om...
> > ... trade the cannister filter in for it.
> >
> > ... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
> > tank,
>
> Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
> reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
> to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
> Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
> harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
> the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
> biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
> provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
> The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
> place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
> cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
> One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
> seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?
>
> Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
> before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
> existing filter setup.
>
> Help!!

[John]

>we were led
>to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
>Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate,

Your live rock does that job for you.

The skimmer is for dissolved organics/phosphates which canister filters do not
do good at. Those two are food for algae so that's why people keep them low.

Live Rock
Skimmer
Sump w/Algae
is how I see it prioritized.
~John

[MonkeyBoy]

"Billy" > wrote in message >...
> "Toni" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> |
> |
> |
> | I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
> for it.
> |
>
>
> Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
> tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
> will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
> it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
> skimmer you can afford.
>
> billy
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004

I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning to
use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
some form of mechanical filtration?

Regards,

MB

[Billy]

"MonkeyBoy" > wrote in message
...
|
| I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning
to
| use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
| canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
| canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
| some form of mechanical filtration?
|

I was confused about that as well, initially. As I understand it, if
you have an adequate cleanup crew, the mechanical filtration isn't
really needed. A good skimmer is the key. FWIW, Prizm skimmers are
considered pretty poor as far as skimmers go, and having used one, I
can agree. Many skimmers, particularly that Prizm, have a chamber for
filter media, but be sure you rinse it frequently to avoid nitrate
production.

billy


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004

[erik]

This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
started to "get it". I'll try to summarize a little here.

Biological wastes are broken down by bacteria. Much of the waste
products we're concerned with here are nitrogen based.

These wastes are first tackled by bacteria type 'A' and converted to
Ammonia. Ammonia is very toxic.

Ammonia is then used by bacteria type 'B' and converted to Nitrite.
Nitrite can be very toxic under some conditions.

The Nitrite is then converted to Nitrate by bacteria type 'C'.
Nitrate is only toxic at very high levels but it is a nutrient source
for plants and algae.

Nitrate is then broken down into Nitrogen gas by bacteria type 'D'.
Nitrogen gas is safe and will escape from the aquarium via little
bubbles.

So, the first thing you'll need to do is establish a population of
bacteria type 'A' and then bacteria types 'B' and 'C'. This is what
people mean when they talk about cycling a tank. They are providing
enough food for the bacteria to colonize and start the process of
converting Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate. Luckly these bacteria are
everywhere, in the air, on our bodies, in dirt etc... These colonies
of bacteria will start to flurish in a couple of weeks provided they
have a food source and a substrate to grow on. That's where the
filters come in. Filters typically try to provide a huge amount of
surface area for the bacteria to grow on. Some also provide some
mechanical filtration to trap particles.

So far we have a filltration system that converts biological wastes
into Nitrate, but Nitrates will cause serious problems do to
excessive algae, so we try to keep the Nitrate levels low.
The problem is that the bacteria that converts Nitrate to Nitrogen gas
requires conditions very different from the the other bacteria types (
'A', 'B', and 'C'). The first 3 types of bacteria require alot of
oxygen to do their job while type 'D' requires a low oxygen
environment.

Most biological filters do an awesome job at growing the first 3 types
of bacteria but not the last one so that Nitrates build up in a system
quickly. The first step is to try to remove waste from the system
before the bacteria gets to it. This is where the protein skimmer
comes in. Secondly, the mechanical filters have to be cleaned at
least once per day, otherwise they are just trapping wastes in the
system which will eventually turn into more Nitrate.

What we really want is a system that provides alot of high oxygen
surface area for bacteria types 'A', 'B', and 'C' and also low oxygen
areas for bacteria type 'D'. Liverock and a deep layer of sand (deep
sand bed , DSB) provide these environments in a very natural way.
Even if you provided an environment for bacteria type 'D' via a second
filter system, or via a DSB, the Nitrates are still in the water
column long enough for algae to get out of hand.


Clear as mud?
Here are a couple of articles by people far more knowlegable than I.
Not to mention they write gooder two.

Good luck.

The Basics of Filtration for the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/beginner.htm

These people are a little weird but they have a lot of good info
online. Look at the stuff about the "bullet proof reef"
http://www.garf.org



On 30 Aug 2004 13:40:45 -0700, (Dale & H) wrote:

>> ... trade the cannister filter in for it.
>>
>> ... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
>> tank,
>
>Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
>reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
>to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
>Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
>harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
>the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
>biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
>provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
>The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
>place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
>cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
>One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
>seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?
>
>Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
>before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
>existing filter setup.
>
>Help!!

[Billy]

"erik" > wrote in message
...
| This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got
started.
| I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
| started to "get it". I'll try to summarize a little here.
|
|
| The Basics of Filtration for the Reef Aquarium
| http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/beginner.htm
|
| These people are a little weird but they have a lot of good info
| online. Look at the stuff about the "bullet proof reef"
| http://www.garf.org
|
|


Well done, erik. May I also point you to www.reefcentral.com
if you haven't been there already. Absolutely the best reef\marine
source I've ever found.

billy


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 8/27/2004

[Dale & H]

erik > wrote in message >...
> This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
> I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
> started to "get it".

Erik

Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
date. Superb and really helpful.

Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.

We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
mechanical filter along the way)

-OR-

Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.

Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
manageable?

Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment

This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,

Cheers
Dale and H

[erik]

The first part of what I said regarding how the bacteria work is
simple fact.

The second part on how to best utilize these biological processes in
order to accomplish your goals is only my opinion.

There are many ways to run a reef. Some are clearly better than
others. The rest are a matter of opinion and how much work you care
to do.

I say ask questions and then go with whatever you are comfortable
with. Meanwhile, get yourself some good books and snoop around on
the internet. Study your new hobby. Then as you learn more, you can
go back and correct any mistakes you might have made.



Erik


On 31 Aug 2004 13:43:14 -0700, (Dale & H) wrote:

>erik > wrote in message >...
>> This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
>> I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
>> started to "get it".
>
>Erik
>
>Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
>microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
>date. Superb and really helpful.
>
>Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
>based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
>spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
>about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
>stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
>that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
>second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
>the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
>his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
>confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.
>
>We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
>fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
>there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
>was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
>be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
>we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
>advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.
>
>So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
>live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
>biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
>understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
>mechanical filter along the way)
>
>-OR-
>
>Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
>problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.
>
>Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
>of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
>filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
>advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
>rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
>manageable?
>
>Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
>the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
>like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
>views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
>for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment
>
>This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
>confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,
>
>Cheers
>Dale and H

[PaulB]

You should run some carbon every now and then.


"MonkeyBoy" > wrote in message
...
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Toni" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |
>> | I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
>> for it.
>> |
>>
>>
>> Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
>> tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
>> will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
>> it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
>> skimmer you can afford.
>>
>> billy
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
>
> I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning to
> use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
> canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
> canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
> some form of mechanical filtration?
>
> Regards,
>
> MB

[Billy]

"MonkeyBoy" > wrote in message
...
|
| I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning
to
| use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
| canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
| canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
| some form of mechanical filtration?
|

I don't use any mechanical filtration in my 75. My cleanup crew keeps
the particulates down. Every now and them I throw the magnum on to
polish the water. FWIW, your Prizm Deluxe has a chamber for filter
media. And no, I would NOT use the canister filter on a reef tank. A
*good* skimmer is the key.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 8/27/2004

[CapFusion]

Scroll down for previous reply.

Erik have given you the starting point.
Local Fish Store {LFS) will sell you more than you need.

If you want reef or close to reef, try the natural way as much as possible.
Regarding about nitrate, the final stage of the cycle, can not be perform by
mechanical device to be remove nitrate. Only bacteria can breakdown nitrate
to harmless nitrogen gas from a DSB [Not from a shadow sand bed]. If you
opt for some sort of device to remove ntirate, then try Protein Skimmer.
Protein Skimmer remove any DOC or nutrient that maybe floating with the
current.

My suggestion is to remove any BiosFilteration or mechanical filteration.
LR or any scanvenager like crab / shrimp / star / snail and even fish will
remove any possible uneaten food.

Suggestion:
LR
LS
PS
Varies scanvenger [commonly call janitoral crew].

On other note - try not to add any inhabitant until your new tank get
cycled. Your water reading should be :
Amnona / Nitrite / Nitrate = non-detectable.

CapFusion,....


"Dale & H" > wrote in message
om...
> erik > wrote in message
>...
>
> Erik
>
> Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
> microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
> date. Superb and really helpful.
>
> Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
> based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
> spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
> about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
> stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
> that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
> second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
> the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
> his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
> confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.
>
> We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
> fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
> there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
> was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
> be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
> we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
> advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.
>
> So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
> live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
> biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
> understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
> mechanical filter along the way)
>
> -OR-
>
> Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
> problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.
>
> Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
> of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
> filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
> advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
> rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
> manageable?
>
> Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
> the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
> like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
> views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
> for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment
>
> This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
> confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,
>
> Cheers
> Dale and H

[Cindy]

<snipped>

> We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
> fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
> there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
> was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
> be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
> we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
> advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

<snipped>

You "could" add live rock later, but if you wait until your tank cycles and
stabilizes, adding the live rock then will cause problems, as there's always
some dieoff of the "live" stuff in the rock. IMO you'd be much better off
starting out with a deep sand bed and live rock as the base for your setup.
It'll cost more, but be worth it in the long run. Plus the rock is so
fascinating to watch as critters come out and things grow on it. AND the
person who said that fish stores will sell you more than you need is
absolutely right! Half the time they have no idea what they're talking
about in regards to aquariums in general and reef tanks in particular.

Cindy