Getting ready for my fisrt winter with a pond

[Nathan A. Smith]

Hi,

I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:

1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond freezes...
actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
Looks pretty
Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
Cons: Still paying electrical cost
Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
--Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?

2. When to stop feeding...
-- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
--- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)


Bonus question:

a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?


Nasa

[Roy]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:47:54 -0600, "Nathan A. Smith"
> wrote:

>===<>Hi,
>===<>
>===<>I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:
>===<>
>===<>1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
>===<> Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond freezes...
>===<> actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
>===<> Looks pretty
>===<> Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
>===<> Cons: Still paying electrical cost
>===<> Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
>===<> --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?

I can see this happening very easy. Lots of small creeks etc around
the area I used to live in in Pennsylvania had small waterfalls, and
it was not uncommon for them to divert to different places when the
falls accumulated an ice buildup. Its not the moving water as much as
the splash the water makes. It freezes quick as its a small amount at
a time, and in time it builds up and gets bigger and bigger, until it
starts diverting ther water elsewhere. NOt a lot of room to divert
water in a home pond without it getting out of the given path, and
since there is only a givenamount of water unlike a natural spring fed
creek etc its gonna run out of water after it diverts its flow out of
the desired path.
>===<>
>===<>2. When to stop feeding...
>===<> -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
>===<> --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)

I can;t say, but I have read some foods are fine at all temps, some at
certain temps and some info says no food at all PERIOD even if a warm
spell brings the fish out of their hibernation like state. Wheat germ
based foods are suppoosedly safe in cold water, but allthe fish I have
ever been familiar with especially down south just never appear again
until its warm and comfy in the water..........so feeding may be
pointless. I feed floating food to my game fish and in cold spells it
goes untouched on the surface, and its not anywhere near as cold here
as it is up north. I would say if th fish are healthy and well fed
going into cold weather they should be just fine if water depth, hole
in ice etc etc are suitable for the conditions they are in.
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>Bonus question:
>===<>
>===<>a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?

Has something to do with the molecules in the water being aggitated or
spread out it does not allow the transfer of heat or cold to occur as
it would if the water was still. Same thing with how hot water
freezes quicker than cold water does if a container of each was placed
in a freezer The molecules in the hot water are expanded and closer
together so it transmits the temp quicker. Can't say if its true or
not, but its what I have heard and read on many occasions.
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>Nasa

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Ka30P]

Hi Nasa,

Water forms layers when it is cold. The bottom of the pond can be several
degrees warmer than the top. Someone here once measured the temps with a
thermometer.

The still water is also easier on the fish, they don't have to work against a
current.

I'd go with the 55 degree temperature to stop feeding. That way you won't be
caught by a sudden down turn of the temps.
Go with the temperature at the top of the pond, just because it is easier.

>>Bonus question: a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone
explain how?

Darn, don't get to go for the bonus points!


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[Jim Humphries]

What is this talk about Winter!
--
Jim and Sara Humphries, Victoria, BC
"Nathan A. Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:
>
> 1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
> Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
> freezes...
> actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
> Looks pretty
> Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
> Cons: Still paying electrical cost
> Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
> --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?
>
> 2. When to stop feeding...
> -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
> --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)
>
>
> Bonus question:
>
> a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?
>
>
> Nasa

[Roy]

On 01 Sep 2004 02:13:43 GMT, (Ka30P) wrote:

>===<>
>===<>Hi Nasa,
>===<>
>===<>Water forms layers when it is cold. The bottom of the pond can be several
>===<>degrees warmer than the top. Someone here once measured the temps with a
>===<>thermometer.
>===<>
>===<>The still water is also easier on the fish, they don't have to work against a
>===<>current.
>===<>
>===<>I'd go with the 55 degree temperature to stop feeding. That way you won't be
>===<>caught by a sudden down turn of the temps.
>===<>Go with the temperature at the top of the pond, just because it is easier.
>===<>
>===<>>>Bonus question: a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone
>===<>explain how?
>===<>
>===<>Darn, don't get to go for the bonus points!
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>kathy :-)
>===<>algae primer
>===<>http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html


Correct me if I am wrong but are these layers not referred to as
thermo clines? I can see a thermocline happening if there is
sufficient depth, but have a hard time thinking you would have a
thermocline in a pond of only 2 feet or 3 feet of depth, unless it may
be an inground type pond. I have to think an above ground pond would
be pretty darn close to the same temp most of the way down to the
bottom.

Can you tell I am totally ignorant when it comes to cold weather, and
I used to be a yankee at one time....but that was many many years ago.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Ka30P]

Roy wrote >>ut have a hard time thinking you would have a
thermocline in a pond of only 2 feet or 3 feet of depth, unless it may
be an inground type pond. I have to think an above ground pond would
be pretty darn close to the same temp most of the way down to the
bottom. <<

Don't know what the OP's pond is, above or below, mine is below ground. But at
sometime someone tested the temp in their pond and there was a couple degrees
difference. I'm too fond of my fireplace, my books and my warm labradors to
experiment with this. Anyone out there want to experiment this winter??


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[Bill Stock]

"Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
> What is this talk about Winter!
> --
> Jim and Sara Humphries, Victoria, BC

We know you guys don't get winter in Victoria.

Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
pumpkin.


> "Nathan A. Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:
> >
> > 1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
> > Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
> > freezes...
> > actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
> > Looks pretty
> > Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
> > Cons: Still paying electrical cost
> > Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
> > --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?
> >
> > 2. When to stop feeding...
> > -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
> > --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3'
temp)
> >
> >
> > Bonus question:
> >
> > a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain
how?
> >
> >
> > Nasa
>
>

[RichToyBox]

Your first question about whether to have the waterfall run in winter would
somewhat depend on where you are. I am in zone 7 and the ponders in my area
leave the falls running. We have had one winter that ice covered the pond
for very long, and that was the only year that the ice got any depth. It
will keep the water oxygenated and the hole in the ice.

Second question on feeding, 50 degrees is the temperature that I have always
heard, but keep an eye on the weatherman, if a big cold front is coming that
would knock the temperature of the pond down, don't feed for several days.

Bonus question, water evaporates, and when water evaporates their is a thing
called latent heat of vaporization that cools the water left behind. To
experience this cooling, step out of a shower in front of a fan. The more
splashing and the more surface area, the more evaporation. Higher winds and
lower humidities also increase evaporation. If the pond is warmer than the
atmosphere, it is like a coffee cup, giving off steam which is evaporation.
If it is cooler than the dew point, then it will have reverse evaporation,
condensation, like you would experience on a cold drink glass or bottle.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Nathan A. Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:
>
> 1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
> Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
freezes...
> actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
> Looks pretty
> Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
> Cons: Still paying electrical cost
> Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
> --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?
>
> 2. When to stop feeding...
> -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
> --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)
>
>
> Bonus question:
>
> a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?
>
>
> Nasa

[George]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi Nasa,
>
> Water forms layers when it is cold. The bottom of the pond can be several
> degrees warmer than the top. Someone here once measured the temps with a
> thermometer.
>
> The still water is also easier on the fish, they don't have to work against a
> current.
>
> I'd go with the 55 degree temperature to stop feeding. That way you won't be
> caught by a sudden down turn of the temps.

My albino channel catfish is a good thermometer where feeding is concerned. He
simply will not eat if the water temperature drops below 52 degrees F, although
the gold fish and Koi will nibble if given a little food. So when my catfish
stops eating, I stop feeding them all, or at least only feed them when the
temperature gets above 52 degrees F. And even then, I only give them a small
amount that they can eat in a couple of minutes, and only a couple of times per
week, if the temperature allows, and only if they are interested.

[George]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Roy wrote >>ut have a hard time thinking you would have a
> thermocline in a pond of only 2 feet or 3 feet of depth, unless it may
> be an inground type pond. I have to think an above ground pond would
> be pretty darn close to the same temp most of the way down to the
> bottom. <<
>
> Don't know what the OP's pond is, above or below, mine is below ground. But at
> sometime someone tested the temp in their pond and there was a couple degrees
> difference. I'm too fond of my fireplace, my books and my warm labradors to
> experiment with this. Anyone out there want to experiment this winter??

Well, there you go. You've done and challanged me. I tried to do it last year,
but didn't have the right thermometers for the job. I'll be doing it this
winter, and post the results. Remember though, that any results I get may not
apply at a different latitude.

[George]

"Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
> What is this talk about Winter!

Never too soon to prepare.

[George]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
.cable.rogers.com...
>
> "Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
> news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
>> What is this talk about Winter!
>> --
>> Jim and Sara Humphries, Victoria, BC
>
> We know you guys don't get winter in Victoria.
>
> Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
> started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
> pumpkin.

Ugh! I live in Kentucky, and we've had an abnormally cool summer. So when you
tell me that you have leaves dropping already, I just have to groan! We had an
early spring, and a mild summer so I expect an early fall, and a cold winter.
Gee. I can't wait. NOT!

[[email protected]]

correct, no thermocline but the warmer ground gives up heat thru the liner to the
water. Ingrid

(Roy) wrote:
>Correct me if I am wrong but are these layers not referred to as
>thermo clines? I can see a thermocline happening if there is
>sufficient depth, but have a hard time thinking you would have a
>thermocline in a pond of only 2 feet or 3 feet of depth,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

right. they wont eat when temps drop below 48 or so, GF will but dont feed them
below 50oF. and feed LIGHTLY. not very much. Ingrid

>My albino channel catfish is a good thermometer where feeding is concerned. He
>simply will not eat if the water temperature drops below 52 degrees F, although
>the gold fish and Koi will nibble if given a little food. So when my catfish
>stops eating, I stop feeding them all, or at least only feed them when the
>temperature gets above 52 degrees F. And even then, I only give them a small
>amount that they can eat in a couple of minutes, and only a couple of times per
>week, if the temperature allows, and only if they are interested.
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Ka30P]

George wrote >>Well, there you go. You've done and challanged me.<<

chortle!

>>We had an
early spring, and a mild summer so I expect an early fall, and a cold winter.<<

I'm wondering about our winter. We usually have mild winters, SE WA, zone 7a,
arid and dry. Last year we got tons of snow. And this morning I hear the
kingfisher outside my window and he never shows up until December. I wonder if
he knows something I don't...


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[[email protected]]

damn leaves are turning in Milwaukee WI zone 5 already.. and N. WI had frost already.
it is the pits. Ingrid

"Bill Stock" > wrote:
>Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
>started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
>pumpkin.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

1. stop running the waterfall drop the pump into a bucket filter and have the water
burble at the surface rather than blowing water into the air. keep the aeration
going all winter. drop in a tank heater over the aerator to keep a great hole open.

if you cover the pond with plastic over some kind of frame the pond will not freeze
over. if you up the heater to a 500 watt the pond will stay warm enough to feed for
many more months than without the plastic and heater. I do cut back on amount of
food and dont feed every day, I keep an eye on ammonia since the bucket filter is not
as efficient as the veggie filter.
running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.
slow feeding below 55oF, stop lower than 50.. actually koi will stop wanting food and
will go to bottom. Ingrid

"Nathan A. Smith" > wrote:
>1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
>2. When to stop feeding...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[George]

> wrote in message
...
> damn leaves are turning in Milwaukee WI zone 5 already.. and N. WI had frost
> already.
> it is the pits. Ingrid

I could have gone all day without hearing that depressing news. I guess it's
never too early to sharpen the snow shovel, eh?

> "Bill Stock" > wrote:
>>Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
>>started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
>>pumpkin.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

My 2 cents, since the questions have already been answered.

Zone 7a, K30's area. I stop my water fall, and put a smaller pump on the
filter system and have tubing just above surface fanning over it to the
skimmer, bottom drained plugged. Really helped start up this spring keeping
half the bio-filter active.

As far as feeding. When you feed your fish, you must remember you are
feeding your filter and filters fall in efficiency as the temps get below
55 and go dormant at 40F. (Some say die, some say the dormant regarding the
bio-bugs, regardless not processing waste either way.) ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Nathan A. Smith]

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:41:14 +0000, dr-solo wrote:


> running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.

Ok,

I talked to my 60+ year old physcist (spelling?) and learned a lot about
water flow. It's very complicated, but I will try to condense down what I
learned. From our conversation, I believe the above statement is false.
Here's why:

when water flows down a waterfall it has some amount of kentic energy
(provided realistically by the pump) this kentic energy in one way or
another is turned into heat. Let's assume for a moment 100% humidity,
then there would be no lose of water or energy due to evaporation. This
means all that KE is passed to the water, warming it up. On the flip side
of this is 0% humidity where almost all the energy will be used in
evaporation. Now the amount of KE is dependant upon the height of the
waterfall or the energy provided by the pump (minus friction and other
fluid loses). Thus it could be assumed that the larger the pump, the more
energy the waterfall *could* pass to the pond, given a high humidity. Now
what does this have to do with the outside tempature... Well if the
amount of energy necessary to drop the water temp is less than the
amount of energy being imparted to the water than there would be a
net gain of heat in the pond.

What does this all mean? From our conversation -- it is possible that
given the right circumstances that a pump ***COULD** (not saying WILL)
increase the temp in a pond.

Again this would mean a pump that in imparting greater energy to water
flow (minus friction and the such) than is being removed by evaporation
and tempature cooling could increase a ponds tempature.


> "Nathan A. Smith" > wrote:
>>1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
>>2. When to stop feeding...
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[George]

"Nathan A. Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:41:14 +0000, dr-solo wrote:
>
>
>> running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.
>
> Ok,
>
> I talked to my 60+ year old physcist (spelling?) and learned a lot about
> water flow. It's very complicated, but I will try to condense down what I
> learned. From our conversation, I believe the above statement is false.
> Here's why:
>
> when water flows down a waterfall it has some amount of kentic energy
> (provided realistically by the pump) this kentic energy in one way or
> another is turned into heat. Let's assume for a moment 100% humidity,
> then there would be no lose of water or energy due to evaporation. This
> means all that KE is passed to the water, warming it up. On the flip side
> of this is 0% humidity where almost all the energy will be used in
> evaporation. Now the amount of KE is dependant upon the height of the
> waterfall or the energy provided by the pump (minus friction and other
> fluid loses). Thus it could be assumed that the larger the pump, the more
> energy the waterfall *could* pass to the pond, given a high humidity. Now
> what does this have to do with the outside tempature... Well if the
> amount of energy necessary to drop the water temp is less than the
> amount of energy being imparted to the water than there would be a
> net gain of heat in the pond.
>
> What does this all mean? From our conversation -- it is possible that
> given the right circumstances that a pump ***COULD** (not saying WILL)
> increase the temp in a pond.

The amount of heat energy absorbed by water through friction under garden pond
conditions is miniscule. More heat is absorbed by the water running through the
pump (if it is a submersible, it actually needs water flowing around/through it
to keep the motor from overheating - most pumps, if run dry, can burn out) than
by the action of the impellers themselves. But since the water is in contact
with the pump for a very short period of time, and then goes through wind chill
under wintry conditions, the heat gain is negligible compared to the heat loss
at the waterfall/air interface. Given that we are talking about winter
conditions, you will very rarely find 100% humidity conditions that would
prevent heat loss due to wind chill. And in the winter, even at 100% humidity,
the air temperature will play a huge factor in heat loss. If it is 100%
humidity, and the air temperature is less than the water temperature, the water
will lose heat, even if ever so slightly. I've seen mist/fog coming off my pond
in a cold winter drizzle (above freezing). That fog is carrying the heat of the
water out of the pond. And the amount of heat picked up by the water from
contact with the pump is tiny compared to the huge heat sink of an artic cold
front (drawing off more heat from the water than can possibly be replenished by
a garden pump).

Having said that, I keep my pump running (by not my waterfall) until icy
conditions (I only had a very small crust of ice on one end of the pond last
year, and only for two days) prevail simply because I don't want my filter to
stagnate. It is always good to keep fresh water running through the filter at
all times, if possible, especially at the latitude where I live. My pump isn't
strong enough to create currents that would be bothersome to fish trying to
survive the winter, and the pond is large enough that the currents that are
induced by the pump are minimized. The fish didn't seem to notice it at all
last year.

> Again this would mean a pump that in imparting greater energy to water
> flow (minus friction and the such) than is being removed by evaporation
> and tempature cooling could increase a ponds tempature.

See above.

[Paula Berkebile]

"Nathan A. Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:
>
> 1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
> Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
freezes...
> actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
> Looks pretty
> Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
> Cons: Still paying electrical cost
> Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
> --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?
>
> 2. When to stop feeding...
> -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
> --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)
>
>
> Bonus question:
>
> a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?

There's friction from the water molecules rubbing against each other as they
flow. Friction raises the temperature of the water. Got this from my
resident chemist.
Paula delurking
>
> Nasa

[S. M. Henning]

" Paula Berkebile" > wrote:

> There's friction from the water molecules rubbing against each other as they
> flow. Friction raises the temperature of the water. Got this from my
> resident chemist.

I am a physicist and physics is the study of energy, not chemistry.
Actually physical chemistry studies phase changes like the freezing of
water. However, I will undauntedly state that the energy of friction
provides a very negligible amount of heating. It is usually negated by
the cooling that occurs when compressed liquids are decompressed. To
see exactly how negligible this energy is, the same flow could be
generated by gravity and the pools at the bottom of water falls don't
get warm. In fact some of the biggest water falls and biggest rivers
have been known to freeze solid.

The reason that moving water usually doesn't freeze is that there is
usually some source of heat, the ground, the pump or something else, and
the circulation spreads the heat around so that it is less likely for
the water to freeze.

In your home the outside spigots don't freeze if you let the water
trickle through because the water in the house is too warm to freeze
when it flows out.

Actually too energetic a pump can make things worse by robbing all the
heat out of the ground under the pond. It is optimum to have a pump just
big enough to keep the water circulated so some of the heat from the
bottom makes it to the top and keeps a hole open.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to

[Richard Tanzer]

>
> The reason that moving water usually doesn't freeze is that there is
> usually some source of heat, the ground, the pump or something else,
> and the circulation spreads the heat around so that it is less likely
> for the water to freeze.
>

I see an illustration of this every winter. I live near Lake Winnebego,
in Wisconsin. Lake Winnebego is a widening in the Fox River. The lake is
about 10 miles wide and about 30 miles long. And it's shallow, most of
the lake is only about 10-15 feet deep. So there's lots of surface area
to cool the water from above and warm the water from the ground.

Nearly every December the harbor, where the water exits the lake over a
dam, freezes. What happens is that ice that forms upstream accumulates
behind the dam. At that point, usually mid December, the lake is still
largely open water.

Within a few weeks, by early January, the lake is usually completely
frozen over. But the ice clears from the harbor! What happens, I
believe, is that once the lake is frozen over, (a) there are no longer
any loose chunks of ice to float down stream, and (b) the only path for
the water flowing through the lake is along the bottom, where the water
is about 39 deg F. The relatively warm water upwells at the harbor and
melts any stray ice.

It is not unusual on a cold January morning - temperature below about 0
deg F - for clouds of steam to rise where the "warm" water flows over the
dam.


- Rich

[Claudia]

OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.

--
Totus Tuus
Claudia (take out no spam to reply)

[S. M. Henning]

"Claudia" > wrote:

> OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
> County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
> about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.

It is sort of like sand but it is soft and goes away. When tracked in
doors it just turns to water and doesn't damage floors. Sand just stays
there and drifts all year long, not just in the winter. I would much
rather have snow than sand. There are only 3 things wrong with the
shore: sand, sal****er, and seafood. ;)

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to

[Roy]

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 07:11:18 -0400, "S. M. Henning" >
wrote:
sip

There are only 3 things wrong with the
>===<>shore: sand, sal****er, and seafood. ;)


Those are among the three best things about the shore!
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[W Dale]

That 'snow stuff' is that which keeps us in colder climes sane during
the time our ponds are 'down'. We mostly pretend to not think about
them as we blast down snow covered 11,000 - 13,000 foot peaks reveling
in the thrill of the speed and thanking our Maker that we made it to the
bottom without bumping into trees or other skiers. Then we act like
"all that and then some" because we are still upright. 8-) :-D :-P .
And of course we never go out and walk around the pond peering into the
ice covered crystalline depths (totally clear for the first time! LOL)
to catch a glimpse of the inhabitants below. :-) :-) . Do we?

It only gets nasty when we forget that we are mere mortals and our
vehicles are not indestructible armor vehicles!

Humm.... Southern Cal is starting to sound nice for the winter!

Claudia wrote:

>OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
>County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
>about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.
>
>
>

[W Dale]

Ok, sal****er (for diving) and sea food (for eating) is good! :-) :-)
! Sand? You mean like the stuff at the National Sand Dune Monument in
southern Colorado? Yeah, we have some of that. Interesting stuff.
Especially when covered with snow. :-P :-D .

S. M. Henning wrote:

>"Claudia" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
>>County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
>>about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.
>>
>>
>
>It is sort of like sand but it is soft and goes away. When tracked in
>doors it just turns to water and doesn't damage floors. Sand just stays
>there and drifts all year long, not just in the winter. I would much
>rather have snow than sand. There are only 3 things wrong with the
>shore: sand, sal****er, and seafood. ;)
>
>
>

[RichToyBox]

Those three things are the only things good about the shore. Generally too
many people, too many junk shops, too much traffic are the things wrong with
the shore.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"S. M. Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Claudia" > wrote:
>
> There are only 3 things wrong with the
> shore: sand, sal****er, and seafood. ;)
>
> --
> Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to

[Roy]

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:49:05 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> wrote:

>===<>Those three things are the only things good about the shore. Generally too
>===<>many people, too many junk shops, too much traffic are the things wrong with
>===<>the shore.


That alone is why we always wait until after labor day to hit the
gulf. All the vacationers are at home, souviener shops boarded up and
the beaches are virtually empty......Weather is usually a lot more
comfortable as well, and there is just something about the Gulf of
Mexico in the fall and winter time thats drastically different than
summer......fishing is also great during fall and early winter. Motel
rooms get cut in half or better as well.

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Nedra]

I'll second that Roy. Sanibel in February/March is perfect. Wonder what
this year
will find in terms of shelling? We're hoping the sand can be scooped up and
out.

Nedra

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:49:05 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>Those three things are the only things good about the shore.
Generally too
> >===<>many people, too many junk shops, too much traffic are the things
wrong with
> >===<>the shore.
>
>
> That alone is why we always wait until after labor day to hit the
> gulf. All the vacationers are at home, souviener shops boarded up and
> the beaches are virtually empty......Weather is usually a lot more
> comfortable as well, and there is just something about the Gulf of
> Mexico in the fall and winter time thats drastically different than
> summer......fishing is also great during fall and early winter. Motel
> rooms get cut in half or better as well.
>
> Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
> Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
> I had no input whatsoever.
> Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Claudia]

ok, so now that we all have had fun with my request for info about SNOW, do
I need to do anything to overwinter (such as zone 9 has) or just feed the
fish less?

--
Totus Tuus
Claudia (take out no spam to reply)

[Roy]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 04:19:18 GMT, "Claudia"
> wrote:

>===<>ok, so now that we all have had fun with my request for info about SNOW, do
>===<>I need to do anything to overwinter (such as zone 9 has) or just feed the
>===<>fish less?

I suppose from what I have read and have been told us fortunate enough
to live in zone 9 are pretty well out of range of most cold weather
related problems. I tetter on the border of zones 8 and 9, but overall
my weather is closer to zone 9 than the 8, as freezing or snow is
rare, and on those days it gets cold its only until about 9 am until
the sun gets up a bit then its back to shorts and T shirts ;-)


I would feed according to the water temps, and if your pond hits the
minimum temp for feeding , then I would stop. I feed my catfish year
round, as my pond has never gotten frozen or cold enough for them to
go into their state of slowed activity......Wheat germ based foods are
supposedly good for cooler weather, and I have seen foods that state
they are an all season food and can be fed in cold weather. I would
susupect that really depends on if your fish are active or not. I
guess not feeding would be th safest, but I will continue to feed as
long as they are active with a food made for all seasons as well as
wheat germ pellets.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[RichToyBox]

In zone 9 you may have such a short winter that the pond never cools to
below 50 degrees. If that is the case, feed all year. If the fish aren't
hungray, don't feed. They tend to be smarter than we are. If your
temperatures drop to below 50, it should be for a very short time, probably
the end of January, first of February. In my area, Zone 7, the ponds stay
warm enough to feed until about Christmas, and are back up and ready by late
April.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Claudia" > wrote in message
news:azR_c.7639$fF2.1280@trnddc03...
> ok, so now that we all have had fun with my request for info about SNOW,
do
> I need to do anything to overwinter (such as zone 9 has) or just feed the
> fish less?
>
> --
> Totus Tuus
> Claudia (take out no spam to reply)
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Then there is always the school of thought, that in winter a little fasting
is good for koi, especially female koi that didn't spawn so they reabsorb
their eggs. I know the goldfish I bring in this year I plan to put on a
fasting month, as I had problems when spring came, they got too big, didn't
have the males or the room to spawn in a 20 gallon aquarium. Lost 2 before
I could get them outside. ~ jan


>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 23:54:52 GMT, "RichToyBox" > wrote:

>In zone 9 you may have such a short winter that the pond never cools to
>below 50 degrees. If that is the case, feed all year. If the fish aren't
>hungray, don't feed. They tend to be smarter than we are. If your
>temperatures drop to below 50, it should be for a very short time, probably
>the end of January, first of February. In my area, Zone 7, the ponds stay
>warm enough to feed until about Christmas, and are back up and ready by late
>April.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[[email protected]]

I would say, feed less as the temp drops and be sure to check for ammonia as the
biobugs may not be as efficient. if there is a veggie filter, there may be no
problem. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>Then there is always the school of thought, that in winter a little fasting
>is good for koi, especially female koi that didn't spawn so they reabsorb
>their eggs. I know the goldfish I bring in this year I plan to put on a
>fasting month, as I had problems when spring came, they got too big, didn't
>have the males or the room to spawn in a 20 gallon aquarium. Lost 2 before
>I could get them outside. ~ jan
>
>
>>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 23:54:52 GMT, "RichToyBox" > wrote:
>>In zone 9 you may have such a short winter that the pond never cools to
>>below 50 degrees. If that is the case, feed all year. If the fish aren't
>>hungray, don't feed. They tend to be smarter than we are. If your
>>temperatures drop to below 50, it should be for a very short time, probably
>>the end of January, first of February. In my area, Zone 7, the ponds stay
>>warm enough to feed until about Christmas, and are back up and ready by late
>>April.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Chester Deja]

>
> 1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
> Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond freezes...
> actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
> Looks pretty
> Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
> Cons: Still paying electrical cost
> Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
> --Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?
>
> 2. When to stop feeding...
> -- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
> --- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)
>
>

My first winter was last winter. I shut off my waterfall because I
did not want the splash to freeze taking water from out of my pond
leaving an ice sculpture mess. Also what happens if you loose power
for a half day and your lines freeze up? You can't just turn the
power back on in your pump. Sounds more like a mess.

Next I bought a livestock stock tank heater:

http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pcID=8&paID=1039&sonID=213&productID=2573

and put it in the pond when it started to freeze. At times I had two
to three feet of snow over the pond and could not even see where the
heater was. It worked. These are not only sold for livestock - I
have seen them in Petsmart and other petstores for use in ponds. PS:
they suck as much power as your pump too.

About feeding. I did not feed my goldfish at all my first year
because I did not see the small things in my large pond. Still, they
made it fine through the winter. This year I have been feeding them
and will stop with the first freeze. They will be fine for the
winter.

I must be doing something right because they are alot bigger and I now
have baby goldfish swimming around.

Rick

[Benign Vanilla]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi Nasa,
>
> Water forms layers when it is cold. The bottom of the pond can be several
> degrees warmer than the top. Someone here once measured the temps with a
> thermometer.

I plan to do this very experiment this winter. I am currently evaluating
three solutions.

1. A piece of PVC with aquarium syle stick on thermometers placed at regular
intervals. I would place this in the pond and then retrieve and take
readings as neccessary.

2. Buy a single water proof probe. Attach it to a stick, and take
measurements by placing it into the pond at different depths.

3. A better idea that RichToybox will suggest.

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Roy wrote >>ut have a hard time thinking you would have a
> thermocline in a pond of only 2 feet or 3 feet of depth, unless it may
> be an inground type pond. I have to think an above ground pond would
> be pretty darn close to the same temp most of the way down to the
> bottom. <<
>
> Don't know what the OP's pond is, above or below, mine is below ground.
But at
> sometime someone tested the temp in their pond and there was a couple
degrees
> difference. I'm too fond of my fireplace, my books and my warm labradors
to
> experiment with this. Anyone out there want to experiment this winter??

Already in the plan. :)

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"George" > wrote in message
.. .
<snip>
> > Don't know what the OP's pond is, above or below, mine is below ground.
But at
> > sometime someone tested the temp in their pond and there was a couple
degrees
> > difference. I'm too fond of my fireplace, my books and my warm labradors
to
> > experiment with this. Anyone out there want to experiment this winter??
>
> Well, there you go. You've done and challanged me. I tried to do it last
year,
> but didn't have the right thermometers for the job. I'll be doing it this
> winter, and post the results. Remember though, that any results I get may
not
> apply at a different latitude.

I am planning the same experiment. Shall we share notes/plans?

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
> What is this talk about Winter!
<snip>

I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been in
it 11 times. *sigh*

BV.

[George]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> .. .
> <snip>
>> > Don't know what the OP's pond is, above or below, mine is below ground.
> But at
>> > sometime someone tested the temp in their pond and there was a couple
> degrees
>> > difference. I'm too fond of my fireplace, my books and my warm labradors
> to
>> > experiment with this. Anyone out there want to experiment this winter??
>>
>> Well, there you go. You've done and challanged me. I tried to do it last
> year,
>> but didn't have the right thermometers for the job. I'll be doing it this
>> winter, and post the results. Remember though, that any results I get may
> not
>> apply at a different latitude.
>
> I am planning the same experiment. Shall we share notes/plans?
>
> BV.
>

Sure. Why not?

[George]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
> news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
>> What is this talk about Winter!
> <snip>
>
> I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been in
> it 11 times. *sigh*
>
> BV.
>

At this point, I think you're going to have to wait for next summer. That is,
unless you plan to join the Polar bear Club. lol

[Rodney Pont]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:02:25 -0400, Benign Vanilla wrote:

>I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been in
>it 11 times. *sigh*

Is that due to the 'BV' planting method :-)

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Derek Broughton]

George wrote:

>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
>> news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
>>> What is this talk about Winter!
>> <snip>
>>
>> I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been
>> in it 11 times. *sigh*
>>
>> BV.
>>
>
> At this point, I think you're going to have to wait for next summer. That
> is,
> unless you plan to join the Polar bear Club. lol


WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE LATE NOTICE:

Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, Summer has been
cancelled for 2004. We will try to bring you summer next season.
Unfortunately, Mother Nature insists that she is losing money and needs a
salary cap. July demands sunny-day parity with August before even
considering a cap, and August insists that it's his God-given right to have
32 sunny days if he wants.
--
derek

[RichToyBox]

BV,

Use number 2. An indoor outdoor digital thermometer has a long lead on the
outdoor sensor, and it should be waterproof, so just tie it to a measuring
pole and submerge to a depth and read. I can't think of any better ideas.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> 1. A piece of PVC with aquarium syle stick on thermometers placed at
regular
> intervals. I would place this in the pond and then retrieve and take
> readings as neccessary.
>
> 2. Buy a single water proof probe. Attach it to a stick, and take
> measurements by placing it into the pond at different depths.
>
> 3. A better idea that RichToybox will suggest.
>
> BV.
>
>

[Crashj]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message >...
> "Jim Humphries" > wrote in message
> news:alaZc.287170$J06.120685@pd7tw2no...
> > What is this talk about Winter!
> <snip>
>
> I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been in
> it 11 times. *sigh*

Heck, I've been in the POND more than that. Knee deep only, of course.
--
Crashj

[Benign Vanilla]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, Summer has been
> cancelled for 2004. We will try to bring you summer next season.
> Unfortunately, Mother Nature insists that she is losing money and needs a
> salary cap. July demands sunny-day parity with August before even
> considering a cap, and August insists that it's his God-given right to
have
> 32 sunny days if he wants.

I want my money back.

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Rodney Pont" > wrote in message
news:atcfzvasbuvgflfgrzfygqhx.i45s1n1.pminews@ihs1 ...
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:02:25 -0400, Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> >I am still waiting for Summer. We put a pool in, in mid-july. I have been
in
> >it 11 times. *sigh*
>
> Is that due to the 'BV' planting method :-)

Funny during work hours it was hot and swimmy weather. Every day at 5:30pm
it seemed to get awful.

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
news:Haq2d.62407$D%.43296@attbi_s51...
> BV,
>
> Use number 2. An indoor outdoor digital thermometer has a long lead on
the
> outdoor sensor, and it should be waterproof, so just tie it to a measuring
> pole and submerge to a depth and read. I can't think of any better ideas.
<snip>

You disapoint me by not coming up with #3. :)

BV.

[Andrew Burgess]

>An indoor outdoor digital thermometer has a long lead on the
>outdoor sensor, and it should be waterproof, so just tie it to a measuring
>pole and submerge to a depth and read.

I would expect it to be water resistant not waterproof.
I'd add a coat of epoxy...

[Derek Broughton]

Andrew Burgess wrote:

>>An indoor outdoor digital thermometer has a long lead on the
>>outdoor sensor, and it should be waterproof, so just tie it to a measuring
>>pole and submerge to a depth and read.
>
> I would expect it to be water resistant not waterproof.
> I'd add a coat of epoxy...

It's just a metallic probe - there's no electronics in it. Adding a coat of
epoxy will insulate it (my outdoor thermometer probe is currently hidden
under the new wall of a building addition, and it reads 40C - so it's not
just a matter of waiting longer for the outside temperature to get through
the epoxy).
--
derek