winter water temperatures

[Ka30P]

Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
>by the ice being distributed all over.
>
>I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is* counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
>the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower. The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic. As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is* there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs- temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point (32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes *less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water. The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification. Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface, freezes
completely.

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
>right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far more
than you could reasonably produce. Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run between
your shed and the airstone.

>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low. This is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite *benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a shower.
:) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during that
transition period.

So.... thats my 2 cents on the subject. YMMV. :)

Roark <--- wouldn't know a real winter if it bit him in the rumpus!
Ventura, Ca.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[RichToyBox]

There are a few areas that Roark is mistaken, though his dissertation is
reasonably close. One the point of maximum density of water is at 39
degrees, so as long as the temperature is warmer than 39, the warm water is
at the top, and when the temperature of the pond drops below 39 degrees, the
warmest water is at the bottom. The earth does continue to warm the bottom
of the pond with the heat being transported to the surface where wind,
evaporation, and cold temperatures rob the heat from the surface. When the
amount of heat transferred is not sufficient to keep up, then the
temperature at the surface reaches 32 degree water, and through continued
cooling becomes 32 degree ice. At the water ice interface, the temperature
is always 32 degrees. When ice forms, it expands about 9% which is why ice
floats with about 10% of the cube out of the water.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes
a
> pretty interesting read.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> From: Roark7
> Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> Date: 1997/10/31
>
> David Swarbrick wrote:
>
> >Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
> >over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
> >suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
> >but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
> >at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
> >by the ice being distributed all over.
> >
> >I question this.
>
> Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced
the
> same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
> until you start looking hard.
>
> >First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
> >will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
> >floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
> >the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
> >the point very near freezing.
>
> I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
> thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
three
> things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
> order of importance:
>
> - The native heat of the earth
> - The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> - Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
>
> I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
>
> - Heat of the Earth:
> It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
around
> 34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
The
> simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic. As you dig
down
> you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
be
> pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
> the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
> The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
> effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
> this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
>
> - Physics of Water:
> It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink
when
> it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
> function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
> this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
> curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
> F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
> dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
> is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
water
> *rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of
the
> water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
> controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
The
> more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
been
> reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
> concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
> water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
> completely.
>
> - Surface Cooling Effects
> This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
> Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
> heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
> Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
> insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
> you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
point
> where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
>
> >It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
> >case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
> >right.
>
> Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
will
> take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
> than you could reasonably produce. Pumping a large amount of air in
would
> also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
> for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
> this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.
>
> For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air
idea
> to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air
to
> it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
> your shed and the airstone.
>
> >Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
> >up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
> >to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
>
> The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This is
> a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available
once
> you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
> by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of
the
> oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
>
> During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
> would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
> to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
> to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's
and
> 40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
> putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
to
> absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
> oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
> :) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during
the
> actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
> transition period.
>
> So.... thats my 2 cents on the subject. YMMV. :)
>
> Roark <--- wouldn't know a real winter if it bit him in the rumpus!
> Ventura, Ca.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
>
>
> kathy :-)
> algae primer
> http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[George]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes a
> pretty interesting read.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> From: Roark7
> Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> Date: 1997/10/31
>
> David Swarbrick wrote:
>
>>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
>>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
>>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
>>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
>>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
>>by the ice being distributed all over.
>>
>>I question this.
>
> Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced the
> same arguments that you shortly share because it *is* counter-intuitive...
> until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the circulation,
which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground below
the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and only had
ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).

>>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
>>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
>>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
>>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
>>the point very near freezing.
>
> I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
> thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with three
> things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in ascending
> order of importance:
>
> - The native heat of the earth
> - The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> - Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
>
> I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
>
> - Heat of the Earth:
> It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right around
> 34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower. The
> simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
> As you dig down
> you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can be
> pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes below
> the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is* there.
> The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The other
> effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by keeping
> this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the geothermal
gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But at
shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave stays in
the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave, which
depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the surface,and visa
versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower. Travel
south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to ponds, the
surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a certain
depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil will
not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with increasing
depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost line is
at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as water
lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six inches
below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north latitude,
and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case, your pond
can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my pond
only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the rest
of the winter.

> - Physics of Water:
> It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink
> when
> it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
> function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it rises... but
> this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs- temperature
> curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point (32.8
> F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes *less*
> dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This difference
> is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing water
> *rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of the
> water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
> controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water. The
> more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has been
> reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
> concentration, this further contributes to stratification. Near-freezing
> water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface, freezes
> completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I place the
air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing the
warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the water
at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the frost
line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the water
as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air supply
is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into the
water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the pond
may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish unless
the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in which
case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the hose out
to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond from
his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is actually
pumping heated air into the pond).

> - Surface Cooling Effects
> This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
> Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull more
> heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural convection.
> Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water physics
> insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
> you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a point
> where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
>
>>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
>>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
>>right.
>
> Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it will
> take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far more
> than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water can
adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the water,
but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air will.

> Pumping a large amount of air in would
> also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least adjust
> for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them into
> this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.
>
> For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air idea
> to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air to
> it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run between
> your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

>>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
>>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
>>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to the
pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.

> The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low. This
> is
> a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available once
> you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of wastes
> by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of the
> oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and the fish
could die.

> During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble system
> would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of her way
> to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite *benefit*
> to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's and
> 40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
> putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond to
> absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
> oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a shower.
> :) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during the
> actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during that
> transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to digest
when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps in
digestion will eventually go dormant.

[Rick]

I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
makes a
> > pretty interesting read.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> > From: Roark7
> > Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> > Date: 1997/10/31
> >
> > David Swarbrick wrote:
> >
> >>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
> >>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
> >>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
> >>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
> >>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
> >>by the ice being distributed all over.
> >>
> >>I question this.
> >
> > Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
voiced the
> > same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
> > until you start looking hard.
>
> Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
circulation,
> which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground
below
> the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
> temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
only had
> ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
>
> >>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
> >>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
> >>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
> >>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
> >>the point very near freezing.
> >
> > I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
pond"
> > thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
three
> > things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
> > order of importance:
> >
> > - The native heat of the earth
> > - The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> > - Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
> >
> > I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
> >
> > - Heat of the Earth:
> > It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
around
> > 34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
The
> > simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
> > As you dig down
> > you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
be
> > pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
> > the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
> > The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
> > effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
> > this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
>
> I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
geothermal
> gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
at
> shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
> instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
stays in
> the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
which
> depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
> entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
surface,and visa
> versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
Travel
> south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
ponds, the
> surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
certain
> depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
will
> not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
increasing
> depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
line is
> at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
water
> lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
inches
> below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
latitude,
> and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
> (unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
your pond
> can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
pond
> only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the
rest
> of the winter.
>
> > - Physics of Water:
> > It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
sink
> > when
> > it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
> > function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
> > this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
> > curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
> > F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
> > dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
> > is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
water
> > *rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
of the
> > water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> > expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
is
> > controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
The
> > more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
been
> > reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
O2
> > concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
> > water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
> > completely.
>
> Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
place the
> air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
the
> warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the
water
> at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
frost
> line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the
water
> as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air
supply
> is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into
the
> water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
pond
> may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
unless
> the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
which
> case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
hose out
> to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond
from
> his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
actually
> pumping heated air into the pond).
>
> > - Surface Cooling Effects
> > This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
context.
> > Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
> > heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
> > Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
> > insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
true,
> > you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
point
> > where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
> >
> >>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
> >>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
> >>right.
> >
> > Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
will
> > take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
> > than you could reasonably produce.
>
> That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water
can
> adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
water,
> but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
will.
>
> > Pumping a large amount of air in would
> > also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
> > for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
> > this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.
> >
> > For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
warm-air idea
> > to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
air to
> > it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
> > your shed and the airstone.
>
> An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:
>
> http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>
> >>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
> >>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
> >>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
>
> Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
the
> pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
>
> > The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This
> > is
> > a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
available once
> > you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
> > by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
of the
> > oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
>
> Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
the fish
> could die.
>
> > During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
> > would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
> > to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
> > to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
30's and
> > 40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
be
> > putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
to
> > absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
> > oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
> > :) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
during the
> > actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> > metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
> > transition period.
>
> It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
digest
> when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps
in
> digestion will eventually go dormant.
>
>

[RichToyBox]

Rick,

The bubbler will keep a hole in the ice for quite a while and is a whole lot
cheaper to run than the electric stock tank heaters. It is true that the
fish don't need much oxygen in their winter stupor, and cold water holds a
lot of oxygen, so the bubbler is probably not necessary for oxygen, but it
does help to drive off other gasses. If the pond does completely freeze
over one night, the stock tank heater can be put in and then will melt a
hole and maintain the hole open until warmer weather returns.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
> keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have
a
> built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
> degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
over
> because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying
that
> I sill should put in a Bubbler?
>
>
>
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
> makes a
> > > pretty interesting read.
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> > > From: Roark7
> > > Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> > > Date: 1997/10/31
> > >
> > > David Swarbrick wrote:
> > >
> > >>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
> > >>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
> > >>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
> > >>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
water
> > >>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
> > >>by the ice being distributed all over.
> > >>
> > >>I question this.
> > >
> > > Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
> voiced the
> > > same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
> counter-intuitive...
> > > until you start looking hard.
> >
> > Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
> circulation,
> > which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
ground
> below
> > the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
> > temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
> only had
> > ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
> >
> > >>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
> > >>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
water
> > >>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
where
> > >>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
at
> > >>the point very near freezing.
> > >
> > > I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
> pond"
> > > thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
with
> three
> > > things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
> ascending
> > > order of importance:
> > >
> > > - The native heat of the earth
> > > - The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> > > - Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
> > >
> > > I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
> > >
> > > - Heat of the Earth:
> > > It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays
right
> around
> > > 34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much
lower.
> The
> > > simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
> > > As you dig down
> > > you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than
can
> be
> > > pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
> below
> > > the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
> there.
> > > The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
> other
> > > effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
> keeping
> > > this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
> >
> > I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
> geothermal
> > gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
> at
> > shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
> > instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
> stays in
> > the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
> which
> > depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
> > entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
> surface,and visa
> > versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
> Travel
> > south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
> ponds, the
> > surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
> certain
> > depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
> will
> > not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
> increasing
> > depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
> line is
> > at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
> water
> > lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
> inches
> > below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
> latitude,
> > and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
freeze
> > (unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
> your pond
> > can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
> pond
> > only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
the
> rest
> > of the winter.
> >
> > > - Physics of Water:
> > > It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
> sink
> > > when
> > > it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly
a
> > > function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
> rises... but
> > > this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
> temperature
> > > curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
> (32.8
> > > F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
> *less*
> > > dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
> difference
> > > is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
near-freezing
> water
> > > *rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
> of the
> > > water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> > > expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
> is
> > > controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
water.
> The
> > > more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
has
> been
> > > reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
> O2
> > > concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
> Near-freezing
> > > water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
> freezes
> > > completely.
> >
> > Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
> place the
> > air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
> the
> > warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
the
> water
> > at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
> frost
> > line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
the
> water
> > as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
air
> supply
> > is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
into
> the
> > water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
> pond
> > may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
> unless
> > the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
> which
> > case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
> hose out
> > to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
pond
> from
> > his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
> actually
> > pumping heated air into the pond).
> >
> > > - Surface Cooling Effects
> > > This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
> context.
> > > Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
> more
> > > heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
> convection.
> > > Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
> physics
> > > insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
> true,
> > > you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit
a
> point
> > > where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
> > >
> > >>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
> > >>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
> > >>right.
> > >
> > > Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but
it
> will
> > > take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
> more
> > > than you could reasonably produce.
> >
> > That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
water
> can
> > adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
> water,
> > but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
> will.
> >
> > > Pumping a large amount of air in would
> > > also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
> adjust
> > > for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
> into
> > > this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
winter.
> > >
> > > For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
> warm-air idea
> > > to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
> air to
> > > it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
> between
> > > your shed and the airstone.
> >
> > An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
$50-$60:
> >
> > http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
> >
> > >>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
build
> > >>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
has
> > >>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
> >
> > Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
> the
> > pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
> >
> > > The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
> This
> > > is
> > > a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
> available once
> > > you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
> wastes
> > > by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
> of the
> > > oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
> >
> > Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
> the fish
> > could die.
> >
> > > During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
> system
> > > would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
> her way
> > > to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
> *benefit*
> > > to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
> 30's and
> > > 40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
> be
> > > putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
pond
> to
> > > absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
> > > oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
> shower.
> > > :) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
> during the
> > > actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> > > metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
> that
> > > transition period.
> >
> > It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
> digest
> > when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
helps
> in
> > digestion will eventually go dormant.
> >
> >
>
>

[George]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
> keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
> built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
> degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
> because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
> I sill should put in a Bubbler?
>

If you have large fish, or a lot of them, then yes you need to add air to the
water to keep it oxygenated. I do have a de-icer, and use it when the weather
gets really bad, but haven't had to use it much since I built the pond, because
we've only had two really cold days in the last two years. Here is a link to
the de-icer that I have:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Scroll down the page and look at the first de-icer shown. That is the one that
I have.

>
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
> makes a
>> > pretty interesting read.
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
>> > From: Roark7
>> > Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
>> > Date: 1997/10/31
>> >
>> > David Swarbrick wrote:
>> >
>> >>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
>> >>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
>> >>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
>> >>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
>> >>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
>> >>by the ice being distributed all over.
>> >>
>> >>I question this.
>> >
>> > Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
> voiced the
>> > same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
> counter-intuitive...
>> > until you start looking hard.
>>
>> Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
> circulation,
>> which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground
> below
>> the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
>> temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
> only had
>> ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
>>
>> >>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
>> >>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
>> >>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
>> >>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
>> >>the point very near freezing.
>> >
>> > I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
> pond"
>> > thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
> three
>> > things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
> ascending
>> > order of importance:
>> >
>> > - The native heat of the earth
>> > - The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
>> > - Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
>> >
>> > I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
>> >
>> > - Heat of the Earth:
>> > It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
> around
>> > 34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
> The
>> > simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
>> > As you dig down
>> > you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
> be
>> > pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
> below
>> > the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
> there.
>> > The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
> other
>> > effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
> keeping
>> > this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
>>
>> I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
> geothermal
>> gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
> at
>> shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
>> instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
> stays in
>> the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
> which
>> depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
>> entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
> surface,and visa
>> versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
> Travel
>> south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
> ponds, the
>> surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
> certain
>> depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
> will
>> not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
> increasing
>> depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
> line is
>> at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
> water
>> lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
> inches
>> below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
> latitude,
>> and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
>> (unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
> your pond
>> can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
> pond
>> only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the
> rest
>> of the winter.
>>
>> > - Physics of Water:
>> > It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
> sink
>> > when
>> > it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
>> > function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
> rises... but
>> > this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
> temperature
>> > curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
> (32.8
>> > F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
> *less*
>> > dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
> difference
>> > is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
> water
>> > *rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
> of the
>> > water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
>> > expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
> is
>> > controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
> The
>> > more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
> been
>> > reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
> O2
>> > concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
> Near-freezing
>> > water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
> freezes
>> > completely.
>>
>> Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
> place the
>> air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
> the
>> warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the
> water
>> at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
> frost
>> line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the
> water
>> as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air
> supply
>> is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into
> the
>> water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
> pond
>> may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
> unless
>> the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
> which
>> case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
> hose out
>> to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond
> from
>> his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
> actually
>> pumping heated air into the pond).
>>
>> > - Surface Cooling Effects
>> > This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
> context.
>> > Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
> more
>> > heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
> convection.
>> > Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
> physics
>> > insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
> true,
>> > you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
> point
>> > where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
>> >
>> >>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
>> >>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
>> >>right.
>> >
>> > Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
> will
>> > take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
> more
>> > than you could reasonably produce.
>>
>> That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water
> can
>> adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
> water,
>> but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
> will.
>>
>> > Pumping a large amount of air in would
>> > also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
> adjust
>> > for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
> into
>> > this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.
>> >
>> > For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
> warm-air idea
>> > to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
> air to
>> > it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
> between
>> > your shed and the airstone.
>>
>> An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:
>>
>> http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>>
>> >>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
>> >>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
>> >>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
>>
>> Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
> the
>> pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
>>
>> > The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
> This
>> > is
>> > a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
> available once
>> > you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
> wastes
>> > by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
> of the
>> > oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
>>
>> Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
> the fish
>> could die.
>>
>> > During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
> system
>> > would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
> her way
>> > to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
> *benefit*
>> > to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
> 30's and
>> > 40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
> be
>> > putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
> to
>> > absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
>> > oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
> shower.
>> > :) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
> during the
>> > actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
>> > metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
> that
>> > transition period.
>>
>> It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
> digest
>> when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps
> in
>> digestion will eventually go dormant.
>>
>>
>
>

[Tom L. La Bron]

Rick,

I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
with total solid ice cover.

Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
airstones.

The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
found that the air was making its way up through
channels created as the ice froze. One of the
important things that you have to remember when using
an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
of the water, which for me is more than enough.

Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.

HTH

Tom L.L.

Rick wrote:
> I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
> keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
> built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
> degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
> because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
> I sill should put in a Bubbler?
>
>
>
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
>
> makes a
>
>>>pretty interesting read.
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
>>>From: Roark7
>>>Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
>>>Date: 1997/10/31
>>>
>>>David Swarbrick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
>>>>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
>>>>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
>>>>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
>>>>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
>>>>by the ice being distributed all over.
>>>>
>>>>I question this.
>>>
>>>Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
>
> voiced the
>
>>>same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
>
> counter-intuitive...
>
>>>until you start looking hard.
>>
>>Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
>
> circulation,
>
>>which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground
>
> below
>
>>the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
>>temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
>
> only had
>
>>ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
>>
>>
>>>>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
>>>>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
>>>>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
>>>>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
>>>>the point very near freezing.
>>>
>>>I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
>
> pond"
>
>>>thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
>
> three
>
>>>things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
>
> ascending
>
>>>order of importance:
>>>
>>>- The native heat of the earth
>>>- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
>>>- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
>>>
>>>I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
>>>
>>>- Heat of the Earth:
>>>It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
>
> around
>
>>>34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
>
> The
>
>>>simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
>>>As you dig down
>>>you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
>
> be
>
>>>pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
>
> below
>
>>>the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
>
> there.
>
>>>The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
>
> other
>
>>>effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
>
> keeping
>
>>>this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
>>
>>I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
>
> geothermal
>
>>gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
>
> at
>
>>shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
>>instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
>
> stays in
>
>>the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
>
> which
>
>>depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
>>entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
>
> surface,and visa
>
>>versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
>
> Travel
>
>>south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
>
> ponds, the
>
>>surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
>
> certain
>
>>depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
>
> will
>
>>not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
>
> increasing
>
>>depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
>
> line is
>
>>at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
>
> water
>
>>lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
>
> inches
>
>>below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
>
> latitude,
>
>>and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
>>(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
>
> your pond
>
>>can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
>
> pond
>
>>only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the
>
> rest
>
>>of the winter.
>>
>>
>>>- Physics of Water:
>>>It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
>
> sink
>
>>>when
>>>it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
>>>function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
>
> rises... but
>
>>>this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
>
> temperature
>
>>>curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
>
> (32.8
>
>>>F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
>
> *less*
>
>>>dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
>
> difference
>
>>>is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
>
> water
>
>>>*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
>
> of the
>
>>>water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
>>>expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
>
> is
>
>>>controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
>
> The
>
>>>more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
>
> been
>
>>>reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
>
> O2
>
>>>concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
>
> Near-freezing
>
>>>water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
>
> freezes
>
>>>completely.
>>
>>Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
>
> place the
>
>>air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
>
> the
>
>>warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the
>
> water
>
>>at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
>
> frost
>
>>line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the
>
> water
>
>>as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air
>
> supply
>
>>is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into
>
> the
>
>>water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
>
> pond
>
>>may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
>
> unless
>
>>the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
>
> which
>
>>case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
>
> hose out
>
>>to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond
>
> from
>
>>his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
>
> actually
>
>>pumping heated air into the pond).
>>
>>
>>>- Surface Cooling Effects
>>>This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
>
> context.
>
>>>Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
>
> more
>
>>>heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
>
> convection.
>
>>>Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
>
> physics
>
>>>insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
>
> true,
>
>>>you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
>
> point
>
>>>where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
>>>
>>>
>>>>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
>>>>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
>>>>right.
>>>
>>>Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
>
> will
>
>>>take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
>
> more
>
>>>than you could reasonably produce.
>>
>>That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water
>
> can
>
>>adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
>
> water,
>
>>but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
>
> will.
>
>>>Pumping a large amount of air in would
>>>also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
>
> adjust
>
>>>for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
>
> into
>
>>>this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.
>>>
>>>For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
>
> warm-air idea
>
>>>to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
>
> air to
>
>>>it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
>
> between
>
>>>your shed and the airstone.
>>
>>An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:
>>
>>http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>>
>>
>>>>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
>>>>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
>>>>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
>>
>>Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
>
> the
>
>>pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
>>
>>
>>>The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
>
> This
>
>>>is
>>>a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
>
> available once
>
>>>you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
>
> wastes
>
>>>by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
>
> of the
>
>>>oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
>>
>>Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
>
> the fish
>
>>could die.
>>
>>
>>>During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
>
> system
>
>>>would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
>
> her way
>
>>>to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
>
> *benefit*
>
>>>to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
>
> 30's and
>
>>>40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
>
> be
>
>>>putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
>
> to
>
>>>absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
>>>oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
>
> shower.
>
>>>:) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
>
> during the
>
>>>actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
>>>metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
>
> that
>
>>>transition period.
>>
>>It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
>
> digest
>
>>when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps
>
> in
>
>>digestion will eventually go dormant.
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Rick]

Tom
How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Rick,
>
> I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
> according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
> to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
> with total solid ice cover.
>
> Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
> usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
> that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
> 34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
> the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
> airstones.
>
> The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
> cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
> what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
> over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
> because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
> found that the air was making its way up through
> channels created as the ice froze. One of the
> important things that you have to remember when using
> an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
> the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
> want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
> pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
> have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
> this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
> of the water, which for me is more than enough.
>
> Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.
>
> Rick wrote:
> > I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
> > keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They
have a
> > built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
> > degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
over
> > because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying
that
> > I sill should put in a Bubbler?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "George" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>"Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
> >
> > makes a
> >
> >>>pretty interesting read.
> >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> >>>From: Roark7
> >>>Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> >>>Date: 1997/10/31
> >>>
> >>>David Swarbrick wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
> >>>>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
> >>>>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
> >>>>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
water
> >>>>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
> >>>>by the ice being distributed all over.
> >>>>
> >>>>I question this.
> >>>
> >>>Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
> >
> > voiced the
> >
> >>>same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
> >
> > counter-intuitive...
> >
> >>>until you start looking hard.
> >>
> >>Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
> >
> > circulation,
> >
> >>which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
ground
> >
> > below
> >
> >>the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
> >>temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
> >
> > only had
> >
> >>ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
> >>
> >>
> >>>>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
> >>>>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
water
> >>>>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
where
> >>>>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
at
> >>>>the point very near freezing.
> >>>
> >>>I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
> >
> > pond"
> >
> >>>thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
with
> >
> > three
> >
> >>>things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
> >
> > ascending
> >
> >>>order of importance:
> >>>
> >>>- The native heat of the earth
> >>>- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> >>>- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
> >>>
> >>>I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
> >>>
> >>>- Heat of the Earth:
> >>>It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
> >
> > around
> >
> >>>34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
> >
> > The
> >
> >>>simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
> >>>As you dig down
> >>>you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
> >
> > be
> >
> >>>pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
> >
> > below
> >
> >>>the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
> >
> > there.
> >
> >>>The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
> >
> > other
> >
> >>>effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
> >
> > keeping
> >
> >>>this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
> >>
> >>I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
> >
> > geothermal
> >
> >>gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
> >
> > at
> >
> >>shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
> >>instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
> >
> > stays in
> >
> >>the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
> >
> > which
> >
> >>depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
> >>entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
> >
> > surface,and visa
> >
> >>versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
> >
> > Travel
> >
> >>south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
> >
> > ponds, the
> >
> >>surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
> >
> > certain
> >
> >>depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
> >
> > will
> >
> >>not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
> >
> > increasing
> >
> >>depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
> >
> > line is
> >
> >>at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
> >
> > water
> >
> >>lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
> >
> > inches
> >
> >>below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
> >
> > latitude,
> >
> >>and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
freeze
> >>(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
> >
> > your pond
> >
> >>can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
> >
> > pond
> >
> >>only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
the
> >
> > rest
> >
> >>of the winter.
> >>
> >>
> >>>- Physics of Water:
> >>>It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
> >
> > sink
> >
> >>>when
> >>>it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly
a
> >>>function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
> >
> > rises... but
> >
> >>>this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
> >
> > temperature
> >
> >>>curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
> >
> > (32.8
> >
> >>>F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
> >
> > *less*
> >
> >>>dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
> >
> > difference
> >
> >>>is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
near-freezing
> >
> > water
> >
> >>>*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
> >
> > of the
> >
> >>>water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> >>>expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
> >
> > is
> >
> >>>controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
water.
> >
> > The
> >
> >>>more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
has
> >
> > been
> >
> >>>reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
> >
> > O2
> >
> >>>concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
> >
> > Near-freezing
> >
> >>>water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
> >
> > freezes
> >
> >>>completely.
> >>
> >>Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
> >
> > place the
> >
> >>air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
> >
> > the
> >
> >>warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
the
> >
> > water
> >
> >>at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
> >
> > frost
> >
> >>line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
the
> >
> > water
> >
> >>as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
air
> >
> > supply
> >
> >>is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
into
> >
> > the
> >
> >>water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
> >
> > pond
> >
> >>may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
> >
> > unless
> >
> >>the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
> >
> > which
> >
> >>case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
> >
> > hose out
> >
> >>to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
pond
> >
> > from
> >
> >>his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
> >
> > actually
> >
> >>pumping heated air into the pond).
> >>
> >>
> >>>- Surface Cooling Effects
> >>>This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
> >
> > context.
> >
> >>>Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
> >
> > more
> >
> >>>heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
> >
> > convection.
> >
> >>>Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
> >
> > physics
> >
> >>>insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
> >
> > true,
> >
> >>>you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit
a
> >
> > point
> >
> >>>where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
> >>>>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
> >>>>right.
> >>>
> >>>Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
> >
> > will
> >
> >>>take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
> >
> > more
> >
> >>>than you could reasonably produce.
> >>
> >>That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
water
> >
> > can
> >
> >>adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
> >
> > water,
> >
> >>but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
> >
> > will.
> >
> >>>Pumping a large amount of air in would
> >>>also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
> >
> > adjust
> >
> >>>for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
> >
> > into
> >
> >>>this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
winter.
> >>>
> >>>For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
> >
> > warm-air idea
> >
> >>>to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
> >
> > air to
> >
> >>>it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
> >
> > between
> >
> >>>your shed and the airstone.
> >>
> >>An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
$50-$60:
> >>
> >>http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>>>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
build
> >>>>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
has
> >>>>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
> >>
> >>Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
> >
> > the
> >
> >>pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
> >>
> >>
> >>>The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
> >
> > This
> >
> >>>is
> >>>a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
> >
> > available once
> >
> >>>you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
> >
> > wastes
> >
> >>>by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
> >
> > of the
> >
> >>>oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
> >>
> >>Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
> >
> > the fish
> >
> >>could die.
> >>
> >>
> >>>During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
> >
> > system
> >
> >>>would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
> >
> > her way
> >
> >>>to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
> >
> > *benefit*
> >
> >>>to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
> >
> > 30's and
> >
> >>>40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
> >
> > be
> >
> >>>putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
pond
> >
> > to
> >
> >>>absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
> >>>oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
> >
> > shower.
> >
> >>>:) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
> >
> > during the
> >
> >>>actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> >>>metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
> >
> > that
> >
> >>>transition period.
> >>
> >>It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
> >
> > digest
> >
> >>when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
helps
> >
> > in
> >
> >>digestion will eventually go dormant.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >

[Tom L. La Bron]

Rick,

One year I did buy a Luft pump from drsfostersmith.com
which is pretty powerful, but other air pumps I get I
usually get from Wally-World, and I buy the $9.95 unit.
I also use a T-connector and bring both of the outlets
into one hose and add my airstone.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------------
Rick wrote:
> Tom
> How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
> for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.
>
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Rick,
>>
>>I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
>>according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
>>to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
>>with total solid ice cover.
>>
>>Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
>>usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
>>that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
>>34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
>>the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
>>airstones.
>>
>>The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
>>cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
>>what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
>>over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
>>because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
>>found that the air was making its way up through
>>channels created as the ice froze. One of the
>>important things that you have to remember when using
>>an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
>>the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
>>want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
>>pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
>>have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
>>this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
>>of the water, which for me is more than enough.
>>
>>Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.
>>
>>HTH
>>
>>Tom L.L.
>>
>>Rick wrote:
>>
>>>I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
>>>keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They
>
> have a
>
>>>built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
>>>degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
>
> over
>
>>>because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying
>
> that
>
>>>I sill should put in a Bubbler?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"George" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
>>>
>>>makes a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>pretty interesting read.
>>>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
>>>>>From: Roark7
>>>>>Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
>>>>>Date: 1997/10/31
>>>>>
>>>>>David Swarbrick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
>>>>>>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
>>>>>>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
>>>>>>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
>
> water
>
>>>>>>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
>>>>>>by the ice being distributed all over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I question this.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
>>>
>>>voiced the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
>>>
>>>counter-intuitive...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>until you start looking hard.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
>>>
>>>circulation,
>>>
>>>
>>>>which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
>
> ground
>
>>>below
>>>
>>>
>>>>the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
>>>>temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
>>>
>>>only had
>>>
>>>
>>>>ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
>>>>>>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
>
> water
>
>>>>>>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
>
> where
>
>>>>>>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
>
> at
>
>>>>>>the point very near freezing.
>>>>>
>>>>>I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
>>>
>>>pond"
>>>
>>>
>>>>>thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
>
> with
>
>>>three
>>>
>>>
>>>>>things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
>>>
>>>ascending
>>>
>>>
>>>>>order of importance:
>>>>>
>>>>>- The native heat of the earth
>>>>>- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
>>>>>- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
>>>>>
>>>>>- Heat of the Earth:
>>>>>It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
>>>
>>>around
>>>
>>>
>>>>>34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
>>>
>>>The
>>>
>>>
>>>>>simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
>>>>>As you dig down
>>>>>you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
>>>
>>>be
>>>
>>>
>>>>>pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
>>>
>>>below
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
>>>
>>>there.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
>>>
>>>other
>>>
>>>
>>>>>effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
>>>
>>>keeping
>>>
>>>
>>>>>this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
>>>>
>>>>I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
>>>
>>>geothermal
>>>
>>>
>>>>gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
>>>
>>>at
>>>
>>>
>>>>shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
>>>>instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
>>>
>>>stays in
>>>
>>>
>>>>the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
>>>
>>>which
>>>
>>>
>>>>depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
>>>>entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
>>>
>>>surface,and visa
>>>
>>>
>>>>versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
>>>
>>>Travel
>>>
>>>
>>>>south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
>>>
>>>ponds, the
>>>
>>>
>>>>surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
>>>
>>>certain
>>>
>>>
>>>>depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
>>>
>>>will
>>>
>>>
>>>>not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
>>>
>>>increasing
>>>
>>>
>>>>depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
>>>
>>>line is
>>>
>>>
>>>>at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
>>>
>>>water
>>>
>>>
>>>>lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
>>>
>>>inches
>>>
>>>
>>>>below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
>>>
>>>latitude,
>>>
>>>
>>>>and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
>
> freeze
>
>>>>(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
>>>
>>>your pond
>>>
>>>
>>>>can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
>>>
>>>pond
>>>
>>>
>>>>only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
>
> the
>
>>>rest
>>>
>>>
>>>>of the winter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>- Physics of Water:
>>>>>It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
>>>
>>>sink
>>>
>>>
>>>>>when
>>>>>it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly
>
> a
>
>>>>>function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
>>>
>>>rises... but
>>>
>>>
>>>>>this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
>>>
>>>temperature
>>>
>>>
>>>>>curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
>>>
>>>(32.8
>>>
>>>
>>>>>F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
>>>
>>>*less*
>>>
>>>
>>>>>dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
>>>
>>>difference
>>>
>>>
>>>>>is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
>
> near-freezing
>
>>>water
>>>
>>>
>>>>>*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
>>>
>>>of the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
>>>>>expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>>>controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
>
> water.
>
>>>The
>>>
>>>
>>>>>more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
>
> has
>
>>>been
>>>
>>>
>>>>>reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
>>>
>>>O2
>>>
>>>
>>>>>concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
>>>
>>>Near-freezing
>>>
>>>
>>>>>water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
>>>
>>>freezes
>>>
>>>
>>>>>completely.
>>>>
>>>>Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
>>>
>>>place the
>>>
>>>
>>>>air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
>
> the
>
>>>water
>>>
>>>
>>>>at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
>>>
>>>frost
>>>
>>>
>>>>line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
>
> the
>
>>>water
>>>
>>>
>>>>as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
>
> air
>
>>>supply
>>>
>>>
>>>>is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
>
> into
>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
>>>
>>>pond
>>>
>>>
>>>>may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
>>>
>>>unless
>>>
>>>
>>>>the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
>>>
>>>which
>>>
>>>
>>>>case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
>>>
>>>hose out
>>>
>>>
>>>>to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
>
> pond
>
>>>from
>>>
>>>
>>>>his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
>>>
>>>actually
>>>
>>>
>>>>pumping heated air into the pond).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>- Surface Cooling Effects
>>>>>This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
>>>
>>>context.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
>>>
>>>more
>>>
>>>
>>>>>heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
>>>
>>>convection.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
>>>
>>>physics
>>>
>>>
>>>>>insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
>>>
>>>true,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit
>
> a
>
>>>point
>>>
>>>
>>>>>where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
>>>>>>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
>>>>>>right.
>>>>>
>>>>>Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
>>>
>>>will
>>>
>>>
>>>>>take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
>>>
>>>more
>>>
>>>
>>>>>than you could reasonably produce.
>>>>
>>>>That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
>
> water
>
>>>can
>>>
>>>
>>>>adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
>>>
>>>water,
>>>
>>>
>>>>but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
>>>
>>>will.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Pumping a large amount of air in would
>>>>>also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
>>>
>>>adjust
>>>
>>>
>>>>>for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
>>>
>>>into
>>>
>>>
>>>>>this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
>
> winter.
>
>>>>>For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
>>>
>>>warm-air idea
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
>>>
>>>air to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
>>>
>>>between
>>>
>>>
>>>>>your shed and the airstone.
>>>>
>>>>An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
>
> $50-$60:
>
>>>>http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
>
> build
>
>>>>>>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
>
> has
>
>>>>>>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
>>>>
>>>>Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
>>>
>>>This
>>>
>>>
>>>>>is
>>>>>a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
>>>
>>>available once
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
>>>
>>>wastes
>>>
>>>
>>>>>by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
>>>
>>>of the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
>>>>
>>>>Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
>>>
>>>the fish
>>>
>>>
>>>>could die.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
>>>
>>>system
>>>
>>>
>>>>>would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
>>>
>>>her way
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
>>>
>>>*benefit*
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
>>>
>>>30's and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
>>>
>>>be
>>>
>>>
>>>>>putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
>
> pond
>
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
>>>>>oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
>>>
>>>shower.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>:) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
>>>
>>>during the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
>>>>>metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>>>>>transition period.
>>>>
>>>>It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
>>>
>>>digest
>>>
>>>
>>>>when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
>
> helps
>
>>>in
>>>
>>>
>>>>digestion will eventually go dormant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[RichToyBox]

It is not the size of the bubbler that is important. You are not trying to
achieve filtration by air driven under gravel filters, you are trying to
keep the top surface of the water disturbed to prevent freezing over. Any
of the pumps will work, just put a big airstone on the line, suspend the
airstone a few inches from the top, and let it do the work of a heater.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tom
> How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
> for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.
>
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rick,
> >
> > I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
> > according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
> > to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
> > with total solid ice cover.
> >
> > Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
> > usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
> > that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
> > 34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
> > the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
> > airstones.
> >
> > The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
> > cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
> > what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
> > over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
> > because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
> > found that the air was making its way up through
> > channels created as the ice froze. One of the
> > important things that you have to remember when using
> > an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
> > the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
> > want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
> > pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
> > have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
> > this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
> > of the water, which for me is more than enough.
> >
> > Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Tom L.L.
> >
> > Rick wrote:
> > > I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use
to
> > > keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They
> have a
> > > built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
> > > degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
> over
> > > because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you
saying
> that
> > > I sill should put in a Bubbler?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "George" > wrote in message
> > > .. .
> > >
> > >>"Ka30P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >>>Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
> > >
> > > makes a
> > >
> > >>>pretty interesting read.
> > >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
> > >>>From: Roark7
> > >>>Subject: Re: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
> > >>>Date: 1997/10/31
> > >>>
> > >>>David Swarbrick wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a
pond
> > >>>>over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
> > >>>>suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the
pond,
> > >>>>but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
> water
> > >>>>at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold
water
> > >>>>by the ice being distributed all over.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I question this.
> > >>>
> > >>>Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
> > >
> > > voiced the
> > >
> > >>>same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
> > >
> > > counter-intuitive...
> > >
> > >>>until you start looking hard.
> > >>
> > >>Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
> > >
> > > circulation,
> > >
> > >>which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
> ground
> > >
> > > below
> > >
> > >>the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
> > >>temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
> > >
> > > only had
> > >
> > >>ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the
bottom
> > >>>>will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
> water
> > >>>>floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
> where
> > >>>>the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
> at
> > >>>>the point very near freezing.
> > >>>
> > >>>I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
> > >
> > > pond"
> > >
> > >>>thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
> with
> > >
> > > three
> > >
> > >>>things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
> > >
> > > ascending
> > >
> > >>>order of importance:
> > >>>
> > >>>- The native heat of the earth
> > >>>- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
> > >>>- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.
> > >>>
> > >>>I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:
> > >>>
> > >>>- Heat of the Earth:
> > >>>It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays
right
> > >
> > > around
> > >
> > >>>34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much
lower.
> > >
> > > The
> > >
> > >>>simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
> > >>>As you dig down
> > >>>you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than
can
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > >>>pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water
pipes
> > >
> > > below
> > >
> > >>>the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
> > >
> > > there.
> > >
> > >>>The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time.
The
> > >
> > > other
> > >
> > >>>effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
> > >
> > > keeping
> > >
> > >>>this slightly warmer water on the bottom.
> > >>
> > >>I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
> > >
> > > geothermal
> > >
> > >>gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth.
But
> > >
> > > at
> > >
> > >>shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill.
For
> > >>instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
> > >
> > > stays in
> > >
> > >>the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the
cave,
> > >
> > > which
> > >
> > >>depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
> > >>entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
> > >
> > > surface,and visa
> > >
> > >>versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
> > >
> > > Travel
> > >
> > >>south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
> > >
> > > ponds, the
> > >
> > >>surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
> > >
> > > certain
> > >
> > >>depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the
soil
> > >
> > > will
> > >
> > >>not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
> > >
> > > increasing
> > >
> > >>depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the
frost
> > >
> > > line is
> > >
> > >>at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such
as
> > >
> > > water
> > >
> > >>lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried
six
> > >
> > > inches
> > >
> > >>below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
> > >
> > > latitude,
> > >
> > >>and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
> freeze
> > >>(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
> > >
> > > your pond
> > >
> > >>can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year
my
> > >
> > > pond
> > >
> > >>only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
> the
> > >
> > > rest
> > >
> > >>of the winter.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>- Physics of Water:
> > >>>It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
> > >
> > > sink
> > >
> > >>>when
> > >>>it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is
strictly
> a
> > >>>function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
> > >
> > > rises... but
> > >
> > >>>this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
> > >
> > > temperature
> > >
> > >>>curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing
point
> > >
> > > (32.8
> > >
> > >>>F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
> > >
> > > *less*
> > >
> > >>>dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
> > >
> > > difference
> > >
> > >>>is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
> near-freezing
> > >
> > > water
> > >
> > >>>*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The
density
> > >
> > > of the
> > >
> > >>>water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
> > >>>expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final
bouyancy
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > >>>controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
> water.
> > >
> > > The
> > >
> > >>>more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
> has
> > >
> > > been
> > >
> > >>>reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a
greater
> > >
> > > O2
> > >
> > >>>concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
> > >
> > > Near-freezing
> > >
> > >>>water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
> > >
> > > freezes
> > >
> > >>>completely.
> > >>
> > >>Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
> > >
> > > place the
> > >
> > >>air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that
drawing
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > >>warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
> the
> > >
> > > water
> > >
> > >>at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below
the
> > >
> > > frost
> > >
> > >>line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
> the
> > >
> > > water
> > >
> > >>as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
> air
> > >
> > > supply
> > >
> > >>is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
> into
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > >>water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of
the
> > >
> > > pond
> > >
> > >>may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
> > >
> > > unless
> > >
> > >>the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time
(in
> > >
> > > which
> > >
> > >>case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
> > >
> > > hose out
> > >
> > >>to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
> pond
> > >
> > > from
> > >
> > >>his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
> > >
> > > actually
> > >
> > >>pumping heated air into the pond).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>- Surface Cooling Effects
> > >>>This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
> > >
> > > context.
> > >
> > >>>Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to
pull
> > >
> > > more
> > >
> > >>>heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
> > >
> > > convection.
> > >
> > >>>Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
> > >
> > > physics
> > >
> > >>>insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
> > >
> > > true,
> > >
> > >>>you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just
hit
> a
> > >
> > > point
> > >
> > >>>where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in
my
> > >>>>case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
> > >>>>right.
> > >>>
> > >>>Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but
it
> > >
> > > will
> > >
> > >>>take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature....
far
> > >
> > > more
> > >
> > >>>than you could reasonably produce.
> > >>
> > >>That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
> water
> > >
> > > can
> > >
> > >>adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat
the
> > >
> > > water,
> > >
> > >>but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
> > >
> > > will.
> > >
> > >>>Pumping a large amount of air in would
> > >>>also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
> > >
> > > adjust
> > >
> > >>>for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
> > >
> > > into
> > >
> > >>>this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
> winter.
> > >>>
> > >>>For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
> > >
> > > warm-air idea
> > >
> > >>>to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
> > >
> > > air to
> > >
> > >>>it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short
run
> > >
> > > between
> > >
> > >>>your shed and the airstone.
> > >>
> > >>An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
> $50-$60:
> > >>
> > >>http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
> build
> > >>>>up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
> has
> > >>>>to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.
> > >>
> > >>Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air
to
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > >>pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very
low.
> > >
> > > This
> > >
> > >>>is
> > >>>a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
> > >
> > > available once
> > >
> > >>>you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
> > >
> > > wastes
> > >
> > >>>by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent
portion
> > >
> > > of the
> > >
> > >>>oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.
> > >>
> > >>Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange,
and
> > >
> > > the fish
> > >
> > >>could die.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown
bubble
> > >
> > > system
> > >
> > >>>would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out
of
> > >
> > > her way
> > >
> > >>>to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
> > >
> > > *benefit*
> > >
> > >>>to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
> > >
> > > 30's and
> > >
> > >>>40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion,
you'd
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > >>>putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
> pond
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > >>>absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't
be
> > >>>oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
> > >
> > > shower.
> > >
> > >>>:) From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
> > >
> > > during the
> > >
> > >>>actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
> > >>>metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool
during
> > >
> > > that
> > >
> > >>>transition period.
> > >>
> > >>It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
> > >
> > > digest
> > >
> > >>when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
> helps
> > >
> > > in
> > >
> > >>digestion will eventually go dormant.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>