Clown Loaches with Ich Mystery

[Nikki Casali]

I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
also scratch themselves on rocks.

In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
size shown in this photo below.

http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg

My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.

My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.

The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.

Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
looking.

Any ideas welcome!

Nikki

[Anandan Tanabalan]

Can you post a pic?

Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?

Have you considered that you may have a parasite?

Not heard of anything quite that small though.

Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?

Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?

I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.

Tana.

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"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
>powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
>but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture to
>over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour, but
>they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They also
>scratch themselves on rocks.
>
> In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
> microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they never
> grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the size
> shown in this photo below.
>
> http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
>
> My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the density
> is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost look like
> microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.
>
> My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.
>
> The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
> couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0, but
> the nitrites did spike a few days ago.
>
> Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
> Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
> spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
> looking.
>
> Any ideas welcome!
>
> Nikki
>

[Victor Martinez]

It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
medication for loaches IMO.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Nikki Casali]

I have one stunted molly that appears to have a few of these spots on
its tail. I could try scraping some of, if that is possible. I do have a
microscope for the purpose of diagnosing fish illnesses, but I've never
had to use it really.

Nikki

Anandan Tanabalan wrote:
> Can you post a pic?
>
> Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?
>
> Have you considered that you may have a parasite?
>
> Not heard of anything quite that small though.
>
> Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?
>
> Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?
>
> I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.
>
> Tana.
>

[Nikki Casali]

Victor Martinez wrote:

> It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
> medication for loaches IMO.
>

I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.

Would you agree that an infection of ich on a clown loach could possibly
manifest itself as very fine powder and not the usual larger salt
grains? If you took a pinch full of household salt and crushed it even
further and sprinkled it very evenly right across a loach, this would be
the effect I am seeing.

I don't have a digital camera with the resolution that could render
these fine grains. A photo would have to be taken at very close range
and with enough light.

I've just had a look at one of the loaches - it's very difficult as they
will easily retreat into their hiding places. The spots are not really
visible from a foot away if the loach is side on. If the loach turns so
that its side is at an oblique angle to my line of sight, its head or
tail almost pointing towards me, then I can see the hundreds of spots.
There is only 1 spot on its body that I can consider to look like
traditional ich and it is close to a millimetre. So why don't the rest
grow to that size? Maybe what I am looking at is only the scarring left
by the ich that have fallen off?

I just hope it is ich and not some other parasite I should be treating.


Nikki

[Victor Martinez]

Nikki Casali wrote:
> I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.

I think it's made by a french company, perhaps they sell it by another
name? Here's a good page with lots of info about ich in general and
loaches in particular:
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html

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Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
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[Anandan Tanabalan]

I have used "interpet white spot +" in my quarantine tank a few times.
Used to treat Plecs, goldies and minnows in Scotland.

Looked to the web and found ich-y stuff; apparently can be quite small

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ichthyophthirius

T.

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This communication and the information contained in it are confidential and
may be legally privileged. The content is intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to
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your notice that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or dissemination, or
alternatively the taking of any action in reliance on it, is strictly
prohibited and may constitute grounds for action, either civil or criminal,
at the instigation of A Tanabalan.

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Victor Martinez wrote:
>
>> It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
>> medication for loaches IMO.
>>
>
> I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.
>
> Would you agree that an infection of ich on a clown loach could possibly
> manifest itself as very fine powder and not the usual larger salt grains?
> If you took a pinch full of household salt and crushed it even further and
> sprinkled it very evenly right across a loach, this would be the effect I
> am seeing.
>
> I don't have a digital camera with the resolution that could render these
> fine grains. A photo would have to be taken at very close range and with
> enough light.
>
> I've just had a look at one of the loaches - it's very difficult as they
> will easily retreat into their hiding places. The spots are not really
> visible from a foot away if the loach is side on. If the loach turns so
> that its side is at an oblique angle to my line of sight, its head or tail
> almost pointing towards me, then I can see the hundreds of spots. There is
> only 1 spot on its body that I can consider to look like traditional ich
> and it is close to a millimetre. So why don't the rest grow to that size?
> Maybe what I am looking at is only the scarring left by the ich that have
> fallen off?
>
> I just hope it is ich and not some other parasite I should be treating.
>
>
> Nikki
>

[Mean_Chlorine]

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:25:56 +0100, Nikki Casali
> wrote:

>I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
>powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
>but the "white spots" remain untouched.
....
>In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
>microscopic spots.

Sounds like Chilodonella.

25 ppm formalin repeated three times with three days between each
treatment, and a large water change 24 hours after each treatment,
took care of what was likely Chilodonella here. Recovery was almost
instant, within a few hours of the first treatment fishes were free of
any symptoms.

[Nikki Casali]

Ok, I've managed to get together a web page with some photos. My video
camera has managed to take some good photos and the lighting was very good.

Here's adhoc the page:
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/

The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much larger.

Nikki

Anandan Tanabalan wrote:

> Can you post a pic?
>
> Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?
>
> Have you considered that you may have a parasite?
>
> Not heard of anything quite that small though.
>
> Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?
>
> Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?
>
> I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.
>
> Tana.
>

[Victor Martinez]

I'd say it's definitely ich.

Nikki Casali wrote:
> The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much larger.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[blove]

when my clownloach had ich i put in Jungle Ick Guard at half dosage since i
have scaleless fish in the tank with him, and i turned the heat up to 80
degrees F. and i added a little more aquarium salt and the ich was gone in
about a week.


"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
> powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
> but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
> to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
> but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
> also scratch themselves on rocks.
>
> In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
> microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
> never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
> size shown in this photo below.
>
> http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
>
> My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
> density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
> look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.
>
> My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.
>
> The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
> couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
> but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.
>
> Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
> Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
> spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
> looking.
>
> Any ideas welcome!
>
> Nikki
>

[Nikki Casali]

Does the ich disappear gradually, day by day, thining out in density, or
does it go in one go? Also, how bad was the infection?

Nikki

blove wrote:
> when my clownloach had ich i put in Jungle Ick Guard at half dosage since i
> have scaleless fish in the tank with him, and i turned the heat up to 80
> degrees F. and i added a little more aquarium salt and the ich was gone in
> about a week.
>
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
>>powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
>>but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
>>to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
>>but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
>>also scratch themselves on rocks.
>>
>>In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
>>microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
>>never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
>>size shown in this photo below.
>>
>>http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
>>
>>My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
>>density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
>>look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.
>>
>>My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.
>>
>>The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
>>couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
>>but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.
>>
>>Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
>>Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
>>spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
>>looking.
>>
>>Any ideas welcome!
>>
>>Nikki
>>
>
>
>

[Sue]

Those clowns have velvet - Oödinium, not ich.

Some treatments will work on both but you need to be looking for a med that
lists Oodinium.

Sue





"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> I'd say it's definitely ich.
>
> Nikki Casali wrote:
> > The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much
larger.
>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here:

[RedForeman ©®]

|| I'd say it's definitely ich.

Really Victor?? IMO, it doesn't look like ich that I've ever had... my
opinion is that ich is more of a salt grain versus a powdery substance
appearance....

What about velvet???

Here's a couple things that might help...
http://www.thepetprofessor.com/secPetInfo/petInfo_Detail.asp?clevel=5&referenceID=314&TitleID=314&breed=Fish

Taken from http://www.loaches.com/cloachfaq.html
What to watch out for:

- ick, at the first sign of ick, medicate the tank with any product at half
dose. Keep the medicine concentration at a steady level until the Ick are
all gone. Almost any medicine that treats Ick will work. Personally I have
always been successful with coppersafe.

- velvet, this is a white film that develops on the skin. Treat as above for
ick. Velvet is a disease.


My guess would be to check more into velvet just in case

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[Nikki Casali]

Ok, I'm beginning to think this is actually Velvet or Oodinium which I
have never seen before.

The description is "Symptoms: Very small white speckles on fish.
Resembles a fine powder."
http://www.aquaria.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=258&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

My tank is now full of the Protozin medication. It is too late in the
day for me to purchase anti-Velvet medication. Can anyone suggest a
natural remedy for the next 16 hours which will alleviate the symptoms?

Will Protozin help with the Velvet?

I have my tank set to 30.5 (86.9) degrees Celsius. Salt is 1 ppt (1g per
litre). Lots of aeration. I'm pushing the temperature just a bit too far.

I have a 24 UK gallon hosptial tank set up. Can I use it? What about a
salt bath for the loaches? Would they tolerate a very high concentration
for a few seconds?

Thanks for all the help so far.

Nikki

RedForeman ©® wrote:

> || I'd say it's definitely ich.
>
> Really Victor?? IMO, it doesn't look like ich that I've ever had... my
> opinion is that ich is more of a salt grain versus a powdery substance
> appearance....
>
> What about velvet???
>
> Here's a couple things that might help...
> http://www.thepetprofessor.com/secPetInfo/petInfo_Detail.asp?clevel=5&referenceID=314&TitleID=314&breed=Fish
>
> Taken from http://www.loaches.com/cloachfaq.html
> What to watch out for:
>
> - ick, at the first sign of ick, medicate the tank with any product at half
> dose. Keep the medicine concentration at a steady level until the Ick are
> all gone. Almost any medicine that treats Ick will work. Personally I have
> always been successful with coppersafe.
>
> - velvet, this is a white film that develops on the skin. Treat as above for
> ick. Velvet is a disease.
>
>
> My guess would be to check more into velvet just in case
>

[Victor Martinez]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> What about velvet???

Velvet is supposed to look like a film, not particles. That's why I say
that's ich.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Nikki Casali]

I'm trying to track down some photos of Oodinium. I found this one which
appears to be identical to the symptoms of my clown loaches:

http://www.kattsundco.com/index2.php?p=/aquaristik/krankheiten/oodinium_ocellatum.html

Nikki

Victor Martinez wrote:

> RedForeman ©® wrote:
>
>> What about velvet???
>
>
> Velvet is supposed to look like a film, not particles. That's why I say
> that's ich.
>

[RedForeman ©®]

|| RedForeman ©® wrote:
||| What about velvet???
||
|| Velvet is supposed to look like a film, not particles. That's why I
|| say that's ich.

Understood... and I've, (knocking on wood), never had a velvet problem, but
ich I have had and the difference in pictures that I see, do point toward
velvet more than the ich I've seen in person... my clowns, when in *ich*
mood, lost their colors a bit, and the salt like dots, were just that,
raised dots... Whereas, velvet, from the pictures I have seen, 1, show a
'film' with miniscule dots in the film and her pics actually show the dots
NOT being raised from the surface of the skin, and 2, her clowns didn't lose
any color, they actually look healthy and colorful....

Again, I'm not saying your wrong by any means...

--
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| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
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| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Nikki Casali]

When the sun went down, I got a torch out and shone it down the side of
one of the clown loaches and took a few photos. He was breathing
extremely rapidly.

The powdery grains are all raised from the body. They look like minute
salt granules just stuck on:
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/

Nikki

Nikki Casali wrote:

> Ok, I've managed to get together a web page with some photos. My video
> camera has managed to take some good photos and the lighting was very good.
>
> Here's adhoc the page:
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/
>
> The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much larger.
>
> Nikki
>
> Anandan Tanabalan wrote:
>
>> Can you post a pic?
>>
>> Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?
>>
>> Have you considered that you may have a parasite?
>>
>> Not heard of anything quite that small though.
>>
>> Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?
>>
>> Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?
>>
>> I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.
>>
>> Tana.
>>
>

[Sue]

Looking at that shot your loach appears to have BOTH ich & oodinium ;o(
Ich being the ones that look like salt whereas velvet appears like a
sprinkling of finely ground pepper!

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> When the sun went down, I got a torch out and shone it down the side of
> one of the clown loaches and took a few photos. He was breathing
> extremely rapidly.
>
> The powdery grains are all raised from the body. They look like minute
> salt granules just stuck on:
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/
>

[Nikki Casali]

That could be the sand substrate it is rubbing itself in that is stuck
to the body. If it is ich, it sure is diehard stuff. Call it super-ich!

Nikki

Sue wrote:

> Looking at that shot your loach appears to have BOTH ich & oodinium ;o(
> Ich being the ones that look like salt whereas velvet appears like a
> sprinkling of finely ground pepper!
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>When the sun went down, I got a torch out and shone it down the side of
>>one of the clown loaches and took a few photos. He was breathing
>>extremely rapidly.
>>
>>The powdery grains are all raised from the body. They look like minute
>>salt granules just stuck on:
>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/
>>
>
>
>

[blove]

it seemed to be lessoning day by day and ive seen ich cases that were just
a few spots but my loach was covered, it looked pretty bad.

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Does the ich disappear gradually, day by day, thining out in density, or
> does it go in one go? Also, how bad was the infection?
>
> Nikki
>
> blove wrote:
> > when my clownloach had ich i put in Jungle Ick Guard at half dosage
since i
> > have scaleless fish in the tank with him, and i turned the heat up to 80
> > degrees F. and i added a little more aquarium salt and the ich was gone
in
> > about a week.
> >
> >
> > "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
> >>powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
> >>but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
> >>to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
> >>but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
> >>also scratch themselves on rocks.
> >>
> >>In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
> >>microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
> >>never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
> >>size shown in this photo below.
> >>
> >>http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
> >>
> >>My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
> >>density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
> >>look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.
> >>
> >>My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.
> >>
> >>The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
> >>couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
> >>but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.
> >>
> >>Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
> >>Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
> >>spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
> >>looking.
> >>
> >>Any ideas welcome!
> >>
> >>Nikki
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Nikki Casali]

1 clown loach survived the night.

I'm such an airhead for introducing new fish 2 weeks ago from my LFS
without quarantining them first. It's very rare that I buy fish because
the fish I do get live for years with absolutely no bother. My fish die
of old age.

The last time I introduced anything foreign into my aquarium was 10
months ago. This was a bunch of plants from the same chain of LFS. Guess
what? I had a major bacterial infection and 1 fish died, my 9 inch bala.
So I need to quarantine plants too.

I'm going to stick a big red sign on the underside of the lid to my
aquarium saying "Don't you dare!", just in case I become amnesic again.

I now have my whole aquarium draped in a curtain to prevent any light
from reaching it. I have read that the free swimming velvet parasites
use photosynthesis to make energy. The Protozin medication I'm using is
supposed to be good for velvet too. Probably cures all known cancers too.

Nikki

Nikki Casali wrote:
> I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
> powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
> but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
> to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
> but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
> also scratch themselves on rocks.
>
> In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
> microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
> never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
> size shown in this photo below.
>
> http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
>
> My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
> density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
> look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.
>
> My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.
>
> The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
> couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
> but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.
>
> Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
> Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
> spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
> looking.
>
> Any ideas welcome!
>
> Nikki
>

[RedForeman ©®]

|| That could be the sand substrate it is rubbing itself in that is
|| stuck to the body. If it is ich, it sure is diehard stuff. Call it
|| super-ich!
|||| http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/

I still say velvet... breathing rapidly is because there's medication in the
tank that pushes the oxygen out of the water... keep up the water changes
and hopefully he'll pull thru...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
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| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Anandan Tanabalan]

Nikki,

The photos don't look like Ich that I've ever had.

I'd go down the Velvet route but careful about mixing meds with the stuff
that you've already put in.

One illness will weaken your fish making it more susceptible to others, but
they will also compete against one another for space on your fish.

What is obvious is that your current treatment isn't working.

Moving to velvet meds in your hospital tank sounds best. Smaller water
volumes = less meds but also less stability.

Meds tend to lower how much oxygen is in the water so try to increase
circulation flow-rate or turn-up the venturi on your powerhead.

Tana.

--
---
Create instant designer stubble by sucking a magnet and dipping
your chin into a bowl of iron filings.
---

Anandan Tanabalan.

This communication and the information contained in it are confidential and
may be legally privileged. The content is intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to
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alternatively the taking of any action in reliance on it, is strictly
prohibited and may constitute grounds for action, either civil or criminal,
at the instigation of A Tanabalan.

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> || That could be the sand substrate it is rubbing itself in that is
> || stuck to the body. If it is ich, it sure is diehard stuff. Call it
> || super-ich!
> |||| http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/
>
> I still say velvet... breathing rapidly is because there's medication in
> the
> tank that pushes the oxygen out of the water... keep up the water changes
> and hopefully he'll pull thru...
>
> --
> | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
> | ==========================
> | 2003 TRX450ES
> | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
> | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
> | ==========================
> | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
> | ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
> | for any questions you may have....
> | www.gmail.com
>
>

[Nikki Casali]

It's a sad day for me. My last clown died before me. I think I
accelerated its death by placing it in a hospital tank.

I immediately took a skin scraping and viewed it under a microscope.

Under 40x magnification I saw clearly round cells with a worm like thing
inside. In Untergasser's Handbook of Fish diseases, this matches the
photo of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.

That's not the end of the story. Further on the slide, at 100x
magnification, where I placed this sticky mucous stuff, I saw cells
which are identical to Oodinium. Inside each cell I saw a swirling mass
of dark particles. Around the edge of each cell, I saw something flowing
around it.

I think the ich were on the tail and the oodinium on the main body where
I scraped off the sticky mucous. How about that? Everyone was right.

My LFS sells instant death along with their fish. Must take note of this
for next time.

Time for some Prozac and a nervous breakdown.

Nikki

Anandan Tanabalan wrote:
> Nikki,
>
> The photos don't look like Ich that I've ever had.
>
> I'd go down the Velvet route but careful about mixing meds with the stuff
> that you've already put in.
>
> One illness will weaken your fish making it more susceptible to others, but
> they will also compete against one another for space on your fish.
>
> What is obvious is that your current treatment isn't working.
>
> Moving to velvet meds in your hospital tank sounds best. Smaller water
> volumes = less meds but also less stability.
>
> Meds tend to lower how much oxygen is in the water so try to increase
> circulation flow-rate or turn-up the venturi on your powerhead.
>
> Tana.
>

[Dan White]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
> My LFS sells instant death along with their fish. Must take note of this
> for next time.
>
> Time for some Prozac and a nervous breakdown.
>

Just make sure you don't take the "instant death" instead of the Prozac!

dwhite

[Nikki Casali]

Dan White wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My LFS sells instant death along with their fish. Must take note of this
>>for next time.
>>
>>Time for some Prozac and a nervous breakdown.
>>
>
>
> Just make sure you don't take the "instant death" instead of the Prozac!
>

Thanks. I'll try to not get the packets confused.

It's completely irrational to feel the loss for a primitive animal like
a fish, but I do. I always thought psychopaths had it easy. I think I
need a drug to temporarily induce psychopathy. Grief today, gone tomorrow!

Nikki

[Dan White]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dan White wrote:
> > "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>My LFS sells instant death along with their fish. Must take note of this
> >>for next time.
> >>
> >>Time for some Prozac and a nervous breakdown.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Just make sure you don't take the "instant death" instead of the Prozac!
> >
>
> Thanks. I'll try to not get the packets confused.
>
> It's completely irrational to feel the loss for a primitive animal like
> a fish, but I do. I always thought psychopaths had it easy. I think I
> need a drug to temporarily induce psychopathy. Grief today, gone tomorrow!
>
> Nikki

Just think of it this way. In the wild, some bird would probably come by
and spear the fish through its chest and eat it alive. Not a pleasant way
to go, either!

dwhite

[Nikki Casali]

Dan White wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Dan White wrote:
>>
>>>"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>My LFS sells instant death along with their fish. Must take note of this
>>>>for next time.
>>>>
>>>>Time for some Prozac and a nervous breakdown.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Just make sure you don't take the "instant death" instead of the Prozac!
>>>
>>
>>Thanks. I'll try to not get the packets confused.
>>
>>It's completely irrational to feel the loss for a primitive animal like
>>a fish, but I do. I always thought psychopaths had it easy. I think I
>>need a drug to temporarily induce psychopathy. Grief today, gone tomorrow!
>>
>>Nikki
>
>
> Just think of it this way. In the wild, some bird would probably come by
> and spear the fish through its chest and eat it alive. Not a pleasant way
> to go, either!
>

I know. And that's the reason that I don't take it for granted that I
was born in my country and not in a war-torn nation where it is not too
uncommon to be speared through the chest...and worse. :-/

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> 1 clown loach survived the night.
>
> I'm such an airhead for introducing new fish 2 weeks ago from my LFS
> without quarantining them first. It's very rare that I buy fish because
> the fish I do get live for years with absolutely no bother. My fish die
> of old age.
>
> The last time I introduced anything foreign into my aquarium was 10
> months ago. This was a bunch of plants from the same chain of LFS.
Guess
> what? I had a major bacterial infection and 1 fish died, my 9 inch
bala.
> So I need to quarantine plants too.
>
> I'm going to stick a big red sign on the underside of the lid to my
> aquarium saying "Don't you dare!", just in case I become amnesic again.
>
> I now have my whole aquarium draped in a curtain to prevent any light
> from reaching it. I have read that the free swimming velvet parasites
> use photosynthesis to make energy. The Protozin medication I'm using is
> supposed to be good for velvet too. Probably cures all known cancers
too.
>
> Nikki


Sorry for your loss Nikki. I've lost CLs to the same symptoms too,
usually new arrivals which weren't able to simultaneously acclimate to
the new water, fight off parasites and tolerate the medications. CLs and
Balas are notorious for this. It makes you feel so powerless and
frustrated while it's happening.

The over-confidence of dropping an unquarantined organism into an
established problem-free tank is something which catches all of us,
usually more than just once.

Just an FYI on Ich medications, though I don't know if it applies to
Protozin, but some of them use ingredients which are known to actually
*cause* cancer.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>1 clown loach survived the night.
>>
>>I'm such an airhead for introducing new fish 2 weeks ago from my LFS
>>without quarantining them first. It's very rare that I buy fish because
>>the fish I do get live for years with absolutely no bother. My fish die
>>of old age.
>>
>>The last time I introduced anything foreign into my aquarium was 10
>>months ago. This was a bunch of plants from the same chain of LFS.
>
> Guess
>
>>what? I had a major bacterial infection and 1 fish died, my 9 inch
>
> bala.
>
>>So I need to quarantine plants too.
>>
>>I'm going to stick a big red sign on the underside of the lid to my
>>aquarium saying "Don't you dare!", just in case I become amnesic again.
>>
>>I now have my whole aquarium draped in a curtain to prevent any light
>>from reaching it. I have read that the free swimming velvet parasites
>>use photosynthesis to make energy. The Protozin medication I'm using is
>>supposed to be good for velvet too. Probably cures all known cancers
>
> too.
>
>>Nikki
>
>
>
> Sorry for your loss Nikki. I've lost CLs to the same symptoms too,
> usually new arrivals which weren't able to simultaneously acclimate to
> the new water, fight off parasites and tolerate the medications. CLs and
> Balas are notorious for this. It makes you feel so powerless and
> frustrated while it's happening.
>

Thanks. I hope I have learned some lessons and that if the worst happens
again I'm better prepared.

> The over-confidence of dropping an unquarantined organism into an
> established problem-free tank is something which catches all of us,
> usually more than just once.
>
> Just an FYI on Ich medications, though I don't know if it applies to
> Protozin, but some of them use ingredients which are known to actually
> *cause* cancer.


Nikki