pH vs. Total Alkalinity

[Gabrielle]

My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.

The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
sunlight & heat issues.

Gabrielle, who is not a chemist

[Jim Humphries]

You do not need to lower your pH. The pond is clearly buffered at that pH,
perhaps from Baking Soda. The thing is acidity is the inverse of
alkalinity - if one increases the other decreases.

--
Jim and Sara Humphries, Victoria, BC
"Gabrielle" > wrote in message
...
> My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
> patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>
> The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a month,
> with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH was high
> at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very cautiously
> used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which my test kit
> says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do to lower pH
> without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite are both in
> the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to somewhere between
> hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a small waterfall and 8'
> stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran Desert in southwestern
> Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to top off the pond about
> every other day to cover evaporation. I spent last weekend erecting a
> shade cloth awning over the pond to help with sunlight & heat issues.
>
> Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>

[Roy]

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>===<>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>===<>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>===<>
>===<>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>===<>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>===<>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>===<>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>===<>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>===<>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>===<>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>===<>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>===<>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>===<>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>===<>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>===<>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>===<>sunlight & heat issues.
>===<>
>===<>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist

Alkaline and Ph always seem to go together. We have a hot tub and if
you can get the ph down to the desired point the alk is still in high
ppm for what is specified to be desireable. The only real way in a
hot tub is douse it with whatever you use for sterilizing (cholorine
or bromine) and this also brings down ph...... once we get the alk to
limits needed, alk is usually way to low. If you add sodium bicarb it
raises both alk and ph, however if you adjust the ph with soda ash it
does not affect the ph, just alk content. So I wonder if what works
for a pond to lower one and not the other or raise one and not the
other would also work in a hot tub? It seems no matter what you do its
all a chemical juggling act to get it balanced out..........one thing
I am certainly not crazy over. With a ph of 8.4 I certainly would not
wory about it.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Andy Hill]

Gabrielle > wrote:
>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>sunlight & heat issues.
>
So why mess with the pH? 8.4 isn't bad, especially for goldfish or koi. It's
not like you're probably planning on trying to breed tetras (or some other
acid-loving fish) in the pond.

If you're having to top off that often, just be sure to do some "real" water
changes (30% or so) every couple of weeks. Sounds like you have a lot of
dissolved minerals in your water, and there's no point in allowing them to
accumulate ad infinitum.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Gabrielle,

What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan

>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>
>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>sunlight & heat issues.
>
>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[SkyCatcher]

Is this an american thing (total alkalinity)? I haven't seen a measure
(tester) for it in the UK. How does it compare to kH, gH & pH?

Sky


"Gabrielle" > wrote in message
...
> My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
> patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>
> The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
> month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
> was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
> cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
> my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
> to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
> are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
> somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
> small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
> Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
> top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
> last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
> sunlight & heat issues.
>
> Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Is this an american thing (total alkalinity)? I haven't seen a measure
>(tester) for it in the UK. How does it compare to kH, gH & pH?
>
>Sky

The test for KH is for, equal to, Total Alkalinity. If it is an "American
thing" it would be an "American chemistry thing". So ask a UK Chemist and
find out what answer you get there.

The test kits call it KH, but chemist say the correct term is Total
Alkalinity. So why the test kit isn't called TA is beyond little old me.
;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Roy]

Isn't total alkalinity or KH actually a measurement of the waters
hardness?




Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[RichToyBox]

KH is a measure of the buffering capacity of the pond. GH is the test for
hardness. Both read out in degrees hardness, but the difference is one
reads carbonate hardness (KH) and the other reads calcium hardness (GH).
The calcium hardness is the measure of the hardness of the water, making
soap not lather.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Isn't total alkalinity or KH actually a measurement of the waters
> hardness?
>
>
>
>
> Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
> Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
> I had no input whatsoever.
> Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Jim Humphries]

I think a chemist would call it buffering capacity. It does represent the
ability of the water to resist acidifcation.

--
Jim and Sara Humphries, Victoria, BC
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >Is this an american thing (total alkalinity)? I haven't seen a measure
>>(tester) for it in the UK. How does it compare to kH, gH & pH?
>>
>>Sky
>
> The test for KH is for, equal to, Total Alkalinity. If it is an "American
> thing" it would be an "American chemistry thing". So ask a UK Chemist and
> find out what answer you get there.
>
> The test kits call it KH, but chemist say the correct term is Total
> Alkalinity. So why the test kit isn't called TA is beyond little old me.
> ;o) ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Gabrielle]

From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
aren't thriving.
Gabrielle

Jim Humphries wrote:

>You do not need to lower your pH. The pond is clearly buffered at that pH,
>perhaps from Baking Soda. The thing is acidity is the inverse of
>alkalinity - if one increases the other decreases.
>
>
>

[Gabrielle]

8< snip

> It seems no matter what you do its
>all a chemical juggling act to get it balanced out..........one thing
>I am certainly not crazy over. With a ph of 8.4 I certainly would not
>wory about it.
>Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
>Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
>I had no input whatsoever.
>Remove "nospam" from email addy.
>

I wouldn't worry so much about the 8.4 except that I've been led to
believe that could be why my WH and other floaters are failing to thrive.
Gabrielle

[Gabrielle]

>Gabrielle > wrote:
>
>
>>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>>sunlight & heat issues.
>>
>>
>>
>Andy Hill wrote:
>
>So why mess with the pH? 8.4 isn't bad, especially for goldfish or koi. It's
>not like you're probably planning on trying to breed tetras (or some other
>acid-loving fish) in the pond.
>
>If you're having to top off that often, just be sure to do some "real" water
>changes (30% or so) every couple of weeks. Sounds like you have a lot of
>dissolved minerals in your water, and there's no point in allowing them to
>accumulate ad infinitum.
>
My plants don't seem to like the high pH. If I put them in a container
with lower pH water, they thrive. In the pond, they don't. And, under
the Arizona sun, a pond really needs the plant coverage & competition to
keep algae at bay.

Yes, I do water changes, more like about 20% every week with the water
going to the citrus trees.

Gabrielle

[Gabrielle]

From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?

Gabrielle


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>Gabrielle,
>
>What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
>some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan
>
>
>
>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>>
>>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>>sunlight & heat issues.
>>
>>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>>
>>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Gabrielle,

What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
about pH since.

How high does your pH tester test?

Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan

>.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

> From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
>alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
>keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
>of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
>turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
>sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?
>
>Gabrielle
>
>
>~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>
>>Gabrielle,
>>
>>What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
>>some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>>>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>>>
>>>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>>>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>>>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>>>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>>>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>>>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>>>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>>>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>>>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>>>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>>>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>>>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>>>sunlight & heat issues.
>>>
>>>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>>
>>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Gabrielle" > wrote in message
...
> From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
> aren't thriving.
> Gabrielle
>

Gabrielle
I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
work very well, try it and see...
Or just remove the excess WH.!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Gabrielle]

>>From what I understand in other posts, the high pH is why my plants
>>aren't thriving.
>>Gabrielle
>>
>>Happy'Cam'per wrote:
>>Gabrielle
>>I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
>>water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
>>(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
>>adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
>>work very well, try it and see...
>>Or just remove the excess WH.!!
>>--
>>**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>>
>>
>>
Added eight fish yesterday -- four 12" GF, two 8" Shubunkin, two 4" GF,
all from my old pond. We'll see if anything changes. I've pulled out
about ten of my WH -- most dead & dying -- and only six puny specimens
are left. Since I did a major water change earlier in the week, one of
the survivors decided to put up a puny bloom. The Salvinia is more brown
than green and I trashed a bunch of it too. Now I only have about 10%
surface coverage.
Gabrielle

[Gabrielle]

I've done the water changes and it bounces back up within 24 hours. I'll
give the baking soda a try. I also have glass dishes out with tap water
in them -- one plain, one with a piece of the log, and one with one of
the rocks from the stream. (I used the rocks that came up when we dug
the pond and I'm not sure what they are.) I'll check the pH tonight.

My tester only goes to 8.4 for pH. It's one of those little color
changing strip gizmos. I'm going to have to buy another one soon as I'm
using strips like crazy.

Gabrielle

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>Gabrielle,
>
>What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
>summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
>every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
>my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
>steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
>might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
>about pH since.
>
>How high does your pH tester test?
>
>Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
>one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
>the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
>chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan
>
>
>
>>.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
>>alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
>>keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
>>of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
>>turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
>>sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?
>>
>>Gabrielle
>>
>>
>>~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Gabrielle,
>>>
>>>What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
>>>some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>>>>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>>>>
>>>>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>>>>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>>>>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>>>>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>>>>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>>>>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>>>>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>>>>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>>>>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>>>>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>>>>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>>>>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>>>>sunlight & heat issues.
>>>>
>>>>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Happy,

See
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocument
pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
the medium range. ~ jan


>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:42:04 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

>
>Gabrielle
>I doubt the high PH is the problem, plants should thrive quite well in hard
>water. You most likely have a nutrient deficiency in the form of Nitrate
>(No3). Floating plants suck an unbelievable amount of No3 out of the water,
>adding more fish or possibly dosing some no3 in the form of Salt Petre will
>work very well, try it and see...
>Or just remove the excess WH.!!

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:38 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>I've done the water changes and it bounces back up within 24 hours. I'll
>give the baking soda a try. I also have glass dishes out with tap water
>in them -- one plain, one with a piece of the log, and one with one of
>the rocks from the stream. (I used the rocks that came up when we dug
>the pond and I'm not sure what they are.) I'll check the pH tonight.
>
>My tester only goes to 8.4 for pH. It's one of those little color
>changing strip gizmos. I'm going to have to buy another one soon as I'm
>using strips like crazy.
>
>Gabrielle
>
>~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>
>>Gabrielle,
>>
>>What you've described sounds very much like the problem I had earlier this
>>summer. To solve I was told by the KHA teachers to do 20% water changes
>>every other day. Prior to doing those I had added 4 lbs of baking soda to
>>my 1,000 gallon pond. After 4 water changes the pH was down, and the KH was
>>steady at 100+. Since your KH is a lot lower from the tap than mine, you
>>might want to add more than 4 lbs/thousand. Anyway, I haven't had to worry
>>about pH since.
>>
>>How high does your pH tester test?
>>
>>Regarding the log, fill 2 buckets with tap water, if you can fit the log in
>>one or at least a piece of the log, put it in one of the buckets. Retest
>>the pH in both buckets after 24-48 hours. The 1st bucket (if you every did
>>chemistry labs) is your control, the 2nd is your actual test. ~ jan
>>
>>
>>
>>>.On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:54:26 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From the tap the water is low pH, between 6.2 and 6.8 with total
>>>alkalinity about 40. I've been doing some water changes, yes, but the pH
>>>keeps going up. The only thing I can think of -- and why I didn't think
>>>of it before, I don't know -- is the log I put in the pond for the
>>>turtles to bask on. I stripped the bark off and the log now keeps the
>>>sickly plants on one side of the pond. Could that be it?
>>>
>>>Gabrielle
>>>
>>>
>>>~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Gabrielle,
>>>>
>>>>What is the pH & KH from the tap? Have you been doing water changes, taking
>>>>some out, before putting some more in and topping off? ~ jan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:25:04 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>My new pond is a mess, as new ponds tend to be. I'm trying to be very
>>>>>patient as the water gets greener before it gets clearer.
>>>>>
>>>>>The one spot I have tried to meddle in is lowering the pH. After a
>>>>>month, with plants (alive but not thriving) & turtles but no fish, my pH
>>>>>was high at 8.4, and my total alkalinity was high at about 250. I very
>>>>>cautiously used pH Down and now the total alkalinity is about 120, which
>>>>>my test kit says is ideal, but my pH is still about 8.4. What can I do
>>>>>to lower pH without further lowering total alkalinity? Nitrate & nitrite
>>>>>are both in the safe zones and the water has gone from very hard to
>>>>>somewhere between hard & soft. The pond is about 1400 gallons with a
>>>>>small waterfall and 8' stream emptying into the pond. I'm in the Sonoran
>>>>>Desert in southwestern Arizona with temps 100+ most days and I have to
>>>>>top off the pond about every other day to cover evaporation. I spent
>>>>>last weekend erecting a shade cloth awning over the pond to help with
>>>>>sunlight & heat issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gabrielle, who is not a chemist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>>
>>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Happy'Cam'per]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> Happy,
>
> See
>
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocum
ent
> pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
> some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
> the medium range. ~ jan

Hi Jan :) How are you? Hope you are well.
Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
that reasonable?
Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in high
ph's. The more mineral salts the better.
Different plants prefer certain uptake of nutrients, for instance,
Vallisneria and Elodea will do well in high ph hard water because they
prefer the uptake of Bicarbonates as a carbon source and will suck it
directly from the water column! So these 2 plants will not do so well in low
ph soft water.
98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.
Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
I'm not being a wise ass! :)
I have been running a high light co2 planted tank for the last 2 years, my
ph out the tap is 8.5 and my KH is 5, I push the ph down to about 6.9 - 7
with CO2 injection, I'll post some pics and you can see how well the plants
are doing. Admittedly the water is not very hard but I promise you it just
does not make a difference.
To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Derek Broughton]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> See
>>http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607?opendocument
>> pH plays a very big part on whether a plant can take up nutrients, with
>> some able to do it at lower pH and some at higher, but most need to be in
>> the medium range. ~ jan
>
> Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
> terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
> comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
> However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
> more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
> that reasonable?
> Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in
> high ph's. The more mineral salts the better.

That's true of some - hornwort comes to mind as being particularly fond of
dissolved minerals - but ime Water Hyacinths practically have to be put
into more acidic water when they look limp.
--
derek

[figaro]

> From: "Happy'Cam'per" >
> Organization: Fish Lover
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:40:23 +0200
> Subject: Re: pH vs. Total Alkalinity
>
> Hi Jan :) How are you? Hope you are well.
> Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
> terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
> comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
> However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
> more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
> that reasonable?
> Aquatic plants will not do better at low ph ranges, but will thrive in high
> ph's. The more mineral salts the better.
> Different plants prefer certain uptake of nutrients, for instance,
> Vallisneria and Elodea will do well in high ph hard water because they
> prefer the uptake of Bicarbonates as a carbon source and will suck it
> directly from the water column! So these 2 plants will not do so well in low
> ph soft water.
> 98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.
> Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
> I'm not being a wise ass! :)
> I have been running a high light co2 planted tank for the last 2 years, my
> ph out the tap is 8.5 and my KH is 5, I push the ph down to about 6.9 - 7
> with CO2 injection, I'll post some pics and you can see how well the plants
> are doing. Admittedly the water is not very hard but I promise you it just
> does not make a difference.
> To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
> probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
> column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
>
You make some wild claims here!

"Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth,
really,"

What is your evidence? Do aquatic plants have a different mechanism for
absorbing nutrients than terrestrials? I was always taught that pH alters
the form of certain nutrients causing them to be able to be absorbed or to
prevent them from being absorbed. Do the laws of chemistry stop working in
the aquatic environment?

I agree that most plants do well in a middle range pH because the nutrients
are available at those pH levels. However, different plants utilize
different nutrients just like different animals have different diets. Bog
plants usually need highly acidic conditions to thrive and many of the
carnivorous plants cannot survive in a middle range pH. And I am sure there
are other examples of plants that thrive in the opposite conditions. The
world of plants is a very complex one and blanket statements are rarely
accurate and often mislead people and generally confuse everyone.

If you are going to refute scientific evidence, please do so with other
scientific evidence. Empirical data is great but varies from person to
person and is not a justification for throwing out decades of plant
physiology research.

Sorry for the tone of this email Happy Camper. I'm having a bad day I
guess.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Strips aren't always accurate either. I highly recommend the Hagen Nutrafin
>High Range test kit, especially if having troubles with high pH, as it will
>let you know just how high yours really is. ~ jan

Another mistake, should read WIDE range, instead of High Range. ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Hi Jan :) How are you? Hope you are well.

I'm fine and feisty today. :o)

>Just perused the link you supplied and this seems to be pertaining to
>terrestrial crop soils which is a completely different system. I can't
>comment on PH in soils as I have zero expertise in this field ;o.
>However, when it comes to aquatic plants I can assure you that plants are
>more than comfortable within our ph ranges, lets say between 7 and 9, is
>that reasonable?

IME, most "growing above water level (non-submerged) aquatic plants, are
similar in needs to terrestrial plants, and do better in the mid-ranges of
7 to 8, with some doing fine 5 to 7.5 (think bog plants, very acidic
conditions). There are others I'm sure that can handle the upper ranges,
which I assume is in your planted aquaria? Though you do confuse me when
you say they grow well at high pH, yet your aquaria isn't running at a high
pH???

Derek mentioned, WH, and IME also, tend to go downhill when the pH is 8.5
and up.

>98% of the aquatic plants in the market will do just fine at PH 7-8.5.

See, we are on the same page, only I believe one has hit the top at 8.4....
Going back to the OP problem, her test strips only test to 8.4, so we don't
have any idea how high her pH really is, just because the color is just a
hair darker/brighter, does mean it is just a hair above 8.4 (been there,
done that, and when I got the WIDE range test kit had a pH of 9.0).

>Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth, really,
>I'm not being a wise ass! :)

It is a highly studied fact, that all plants have a pH at which they take
up the majority of needed nutrients. One could dose a plant with Ironite
say, but if the pH isn't in the range that the plant can make use of it, it
will still yellow and die. Thrive... yes, most plants can live a long time
in bad conditions, even survive, but just like koi, won't grow as big or be
as pretty in color (bloom).

>To the OP Gabrielle, I still believe that its a nutrient deficiency and
>probably NO3, floating plants are relying on nutrients from the water
>column, I'm pretty certain that they're starving.

And I'm totally certain, it's her pH. ;o)

So from an aquatic website:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/substrate-kelly.html
*I quote*

* Most macronutrients (N, Ca, Mg, P, K, S) are maximally available
at a pH of 6 to 7. Most micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Co) are
more readily available at a low pH. [Note that most aquarists,
in contrast to farmers, would not consider very soluble phosphorus
to be a good thing! Also, at mid to high pH the available N is
NO3-, which is rumored NOT to be preferred by aquatic plants. The
preferred ammonium N is most available near pH=6 or below.]*

Now for happy fish, plants, and more importantly, imo, the filter bacteria,
it is good to have pH above 6.5 and below 8.5, with the optimium being
between 7 to 8.

Getting back to the OP, her pH from the tap didn't come in high, so
something in the pond is making it so, and that is what she has to figure
out and correct. It could just be a balance thing, bring the KH up high
while the pH is high, then do water changes and see if that fixes the
problem. This worked for me, I'm hoping it will work for her. :o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Happy'Cam'per]

"figaro" > wrote in message
...
> >
> "Saying that plants prefer a certain ph to thrive is a complete myth,
> really,"
>
> What is your evidence?

Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Do aquatic plants have a different mechanism for
> absorbing nutrients than terrestrials?

Yes they do...
This is why they can survive in water and terrestrial plants cannot!!!

I was always taught that pH alters
> the form of certain nutrients causing them to be able to be absorbed or to
> prevent them from being absorbed. Do the laws of chemistry stop working
in
> the aquatic environment?

No the laws are obviously still there but what I'm saying is in our AQUATIC
HOBBY ENVIRONMENT we all pretty much have the same ph ranges ie. 6.5 - 8.
Within these ranges our plants SHOULD thrive, all things being equal, light,
space, water, nutrients etc etc.

>
> I agree that most plants do well in a middle range pH because the
nutrients
> are available at those pH levels. However, different plants utilize
> different nutrients just like different animals have different diets. Bog
> plants usually need highly acidic conditions to thrive and many of the
> carnivorous plants cannot survive in a middle range pH.

YES, but this particular thread is relating to WATER HYACINTH. A floating
plant that is not rooted in soil!!!! It takes its nutrients directly from
the water column.

>
> If you are going to refute scientific evidence, please do so with other
> scientific evidence. Empirical data is great but varies from person to
> person and is not a justification for throwing out decades of plant
> physiology research.

Cheese and Rice, you really have it in for me dont ya ;)
I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm specifically keeping it within 'the
hobby'. Getit?

>
> Sorry for the tone of this email Happy Camper. I'm having a bad day I
> guess.

So I see, well I hope the rest of your day has treated you better.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.

Well.... ah, <flash credentials> blushing... as a Master Gardener I have
to follow researched and written articles by PhDs in their field of study
regarding this subject.

>This is why they can survive in water and terrestrial plants cannot!!!

Ewww, <cringing at that exclamation>... ah.... I've got terrestrial plants
growing in my pond, roots fully submerged, their root system just had to be
conditioned to grow so. Calla & Cannas, normal recommended terrestrial
plants, and many others can be conditioned to grow this way.

>No the laws are obviously still there but what I'm saying is in our AQUATIC
>HOBBY ENVIRONMENT we all pretty much have the same ph ranges ie. 6.5 - 8.
>Within these ranges our plants SHOULD thrive, all things being equal, light,
>space, water, nutrients etc etc.

That's right, yeaaa! But earlier you were... ah... saying a pH up to 9. ;o)

OP only knows that her pH tester has topped out. So we're in a "need more
info" situation. :o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Happy'Cam'per]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >Experience...aswell as experience through other hobbyists.
>
> Well.... ah, <flash credentials> blushing... as a Master Gardener I have

Well jeez, how can I compete with a master gardener! :o
I rest my head in shame...
--
**So long, and thanks for all the ********!**

[Gabrielle]

No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.

Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

[Happy'Cam'per]

Gabrielle

I'm no master gardener but I have another suggestion:
Maybe your ph out of the tap IS 9. You must realise that when the water is
fresh out the tap it contains higher levels of co2, once the co2 gasses out
your ph rises to its natural value. Put some tap water in a bucket, let it
stand for a day or 2 and then test it, if its still 7 or near about that
then you definitely know that its something leeching from your pond that is
causing the rise in ph.
This is quite confusing is'nt it? Not to worry, I'm sure the Porgers will
have you sorted in no time. Patience, don't get yourself frustrated, don't
make too many more changes or else the fish and turtles might get freaked
out, for the time being they'll be fine in the high ph!

I read in Diana Walstads book that some types of algae can raise the ph due
to certain processes, I'll dig it up and post it here for you.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Gabrielle" > wrote in message
...
> No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
> slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
> changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
> hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
> glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
> is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
> is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
> southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.
>
> Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles
>

[[email protected]]

yes, correct. must check pH after 24 hours of air bubbling thru it.
what IS your hardness?
does your city put sodium hydroxide, NaOH into your water to protect the pipes?
have you tried dripping dilute hydrochloric acid (HCl aka muriatic acid) into your
pond to bring the pH down?
Ingrid

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

>Gabrielle
>
>I'm no master gardener but I have another suggestion:
>Maybe your ph out of the tap IS 9. You must realise that when the water is
>fresh out the tap it contains higher levels of co2, once the co2 gasses out
>your ph rises to its natural value. Put some tap water in a bucket, let it
>stand for a day or 2 and then test it, if its still 7 or near about that
>then you definitely know that its something leeching from your pond that is
>causing the rise in ph.
>This is quite confusing is'nt it? Not to worry, I'm sure the Porgers will
>have you sorted in no time. Patience, don't get yourself frustrated, don't
>make too many more changes or else the fish and turtles might get freaked
>out, for the time being they'll be fine in the high ph!
>
>I read in Diana Walstads book that some types of algae can raise the ph due
>to certain processes, I'll dig it up and post it here for you.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

You tried putting in 4lbs of baking soda per 1000 gallons, then water
changes every other day of 10-15%? Massive water changes all at once are
not recommended, nor work. ~ jan


>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:35:27 -0700, Gabrielle > wrote:

>No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
>slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
>changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
>hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
>glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
>is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
>is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
>southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.
>
>Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Derek Broughton]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

> I read in Diana Walstads book that some types of algae can raise the ph
> due to certain processes, I'll dig it up and post it here for you.

I remember a Florida pondkeeper saying that happened, too, but at the time
we couldn't find a good reason for it. Some plants (eg, hornwort) suck up
calcium, and will strip the buffer, which could tend to result in your pH
_dropping_, but I don't know what would raise it.

> "Gabrielle" > wrote in message
> ...
>> No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
>> slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
>> changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
>> hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
>> glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
>> is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
>> is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
>> southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.
>>
>> Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles

The first thing you should do is _nothing_. Never, _ever_, add pH Down.
All you have done is stripped the natural buffer from your pond and made it
impossible to control the pH. Trying to change pH has harmed far more fish
than one extreme or the other. Definitely, don't do "massive" water
changes to bring it down. When it does start to climb, read the pH in the
morning, evening, and following morning. Did it get higher overnight? I
suspect not.

Then, add a good buffer - lots of it. Limestone chips, crushed coral,
anything that will add a good source of carbonate. That will tend to bring
your pH around 8 to 8.4 - whether it's currently above or below that. 7 is
way too low - it probably won't harm anything, but it's not maintainable
without a lot of work. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 8.4.

You're right, though, that some plants don't do well in the higher pH, but
you really have get your pH stable before you can worry about that.
--
derek

[GD]

While there are other possibilites, the algae bloom in your pond may
be accountable for the high pH. Check the pH at different times of
day (e.g. early moring and mid-afternoon). If the pH is relatively
low early in the morning, but high in the afternoon, read on. If it
is continually high, this post probably does not apply to your
situation.

In general, pH reflects the balance between carbon compounds (free
carbon dioxide, and dissociated carbonic acid, carbonate, and
bicarbonate) occuring in water. When higher quantities of carbon
dioxide or carbonic acid are present, pH tends to be lower; when
higher quantities of carbonates and bicarbonates are present, pH tends
to be higher.

Most green things undergo photosynthesis, and the process of
photosynthesis requires carbon. In aquatic systems, plants and algae
take up the most useable form of carbon, CO2. This reduction in
carbon dioxide results in greater relative quantities of carbonates
(and bicarbonates), causing an upward shift in pH. Because
photosynthesis occurs when the sun shines, this upward shift occurs
during the day. If a carbon dioxide source is present (decomposition
of organic materials, aeration, dissociation of carbonates, etc.), pH
will usually fall during the night. A 24-hour cycle of low pH to high
pH is typical in freshwater ponds and lakes.

When the (pH) buffering capacity (more or less the alkalinity) of
water is low, pH shifts due to photosynthesis tend to be great, and
can be dangerous to aquatic animals and plants, even those plants (or
algae) responsible for the drastic shifts . When the buffering
capacity is high, the pH shifts are usually less drastic, and there is
much less stress for aquatic organisms. Raising and maintaining the
alkalinity in a backyard pond is the best approach to reducing the
severity of pH shifts. Because this tactic usually involves adding
some form of carbonate (calcium carbonate the most common), the pH
will settle at around 8.3 when the pond has adequate quantities in
solution (note: some aquatic plants do not thrive at this pH, and must
be given additional consideration).



Gabrielle > wrote:

>No matter what I do, the pH keeps zooming up, even though the water is
>slightly acidic when it comes out of the tap. I've done massive water
>changes which bring the pH down to about 7, but then it hits 8 within 24
>hours and goes to 9 by day 3. I've put pieces of the log and rock in
>glass dishes with tap water and can't replicate the pH change. The algae
>is going wild and the plants are dying, except the parrots feather which
>is simply not thriving. Could evaporation have an effect here? I'm in
>southwestern Arizona and it is hot & dry.
>
>Gabrielle, disgusted and worried about the fish and turtles