Can ammonia and nitrite be too high during cycling?

[Knowleman]

Hi

I started setting up a new marine tank using Waterlife Biomature to
kick start the cycling process. I was going to add cured living rock
later. A few days ago, I was advised to add uncured living rock right
away so it participates in the cycling and settles in during cycling
period. The logic was that you can never be sure that cured rock is
actually cured. The tank is 240 litres and I added about 22kg of
uncured living rock.

Before adding the living rock, nitrite levels had got to about 5 ppm.
The Biomature instructions said to keep adding the stuff until nitrite
reached 10ppm. I obviously stopped adding it once the new rock was
introduced.

Two days after adding the rock, though, it looks as if nitrite is over
100ppm, maybe even higher (difficult to tell when the reading is that
high up the range on the test kit). Also, ammonia is at the top of the
range of the test kit (8ppm) so I guess it too could be higher.

Are such high levels going to cripple the cycling process?

Is the living rock in danger of being killed?

Should I make a drastic water change?

Should I start again? If so, can I use the same rock?

Or is it OK to just leave it and let the cycling run its course?

- Knowleman

[Doug Miannay]

Knowleman,



High ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are to be expected during the cycle.
This is completely normal. You should definitely cycle the tank with all
the LR. The cycle allows all the dead organisms in the rock to decompose
and be consumed by the growing population of anaerobic bacteria.



As the cycle starts ammonia will be fairly high due to all the dead stuff
polluting the water. Then as the bacteria population starts consuming the
ammonia it produces a high level of nitrites until the other type of
bacteria start consuming the nitrites and converting them to nitrates.
Still another type of bacteria then consumes the nitrates and converts them
to pure nitrogen. That's the nitrogen cycle and this is what you are
waiting to normalize. As the cycle proceeds the ammonia will start to come
down while nitrites and nitrates remain high. Then nitrites will start to
come down followed by nitrates. When all read zero, or when you just have
slightly elevated nitrates you're cycled!



After ammonia starts to come down go ahead and add a cleanup crew (snails,
crabs) to start cleaning the inevitable algae bloom.



And most of all, be patient. In this hobby success comes to those with the
willpower and discipline to wait on the processes to stabilize themselves.
The marine aquarium is a delicate balancing act that must be allowed to seek
its own equilibrium.



You'll get there!



Doug

Woodstock, GA

www.hisreef.com




"Knowleman" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi
>
> I started setting up a new marine tank using Waterlife Biomature to
> kick start the cycling process. I was going to add cured living rock
> later. A few days ago, I was advised to add uncured living rock right
> away so it participates in the cycling and settles in during cycling
> period. The logic was that you can never be sure that cured rock is
> actually cured. The tank is 240 litres and I added about 22kg of
> uncured living rock.
>
> Before adding the living rock, nitrite levels had got to about 5 ppm.
> The Biomature instructions said to keep adding the stuff until nitrite
> reached 10ppm. I obviously stopped adding it once the new rock was
> introduced.
>
> Two days after adding the rock, though, it looks as if nitrite is over
> 100ppm, maybe even higher (difficult to tell when the reading is that
> high up the range on the test kit). Also, ammonia is at the top of the
> range of the test kit (8ppm) so I guess it too could be higher.
>
> Are such high levels going to cripple the cycling process?
>
> Is the living rock in danger of being killed?
>
> Should I make a drastic water change?
>
> Should I start again? If so, can I use the same rock?
>
> Or is it OK to just leave it and let the cycling run its course?
>
> - Knowleman

[Knowleman]

No change in levels - can anyone help with some advice?

-Knowleman


(Knowleman) wrote in message >...
> Hi
>
> I started setting up a new marine tank using Waterlife Biomature to
> kick start the cycling process. I was going to add cured living rock
> later. A few days ago, I was advised to add uncured living rock right
> away so it participates in the cycling and settles in during cycling
> period. The logic was that you can never be sure that cured rock is
> actually cured. The tank is 240 litres and I added about 22kg of
> uncured living rock.
>
> Before adding the living rock, nitrite levels had got to about 5 ppm.
> The Biomature instructions said to keep adding the stuff until nitrite
> reached 10ppm. I obviously stopped adding it once the new rock was
> introduced.
>
> Two days after adding the rock, though, it looks as if nitrite is over
> 100ppm, maybe even higher (difficult to tell when the reading is that
> high up the range on the test kit). Also, ammonia is at the top of the
> range of the test kit (8ppm) so I guess it too could be higher.
>
> Are such high levels going to cripple the cycling process?
>
> Is the living rock in danger of being killed?
>
> Should I make a drastic water change?
>
> Should I start again? If so, can I use the same rock?
>
> Or is it OK to just leave it and let the cycling run its course?
>
> - Knowleman

[Billy]

"Knowleman" > wrote in message
om...
| No change in levels - can anyone help with some advice?
|
| -Knowleman
|

I would do a water change, but with nothing except LR in the tank, it
will likely pull through. In marine aquaria, patience is the key.
"Start out slow, and taper off from there." is the advice I was
given. You're months from adding fish, longer before adding inverts.
Do a water change, maybe 25litres, and just be patient. I've
never used the 'canned bacteria' either, and everything works out.
The problems start when you get impatient and start screwing with
things.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004

[John D. Maag]

The only thing I would worry about is the smell. Otherwise let 'er rip. IMO
I burned a lot of RODI water doing unnecessary water changes. becasue the
"book" said so.

"Knowleman" > wrote in message
om...
> No change in levels - can anyone help with some advice?
>
> -Knowleman
>
>
> (Knowleman) wrote in message
>...
> > Hi
> >
> > I started setting up a new marine tank using Waterlife Biomature to
> > kick start the cycling process. I was going to add cured living rock
> > later. A few days ago, I was advised to add uncured living rock right
> > away so it participates in the cycling and settles in during cycling
> > period. The logic was that you can never be sure that cured rock is
> > actually cured. The tank is 240 litres and I added about 22kg of
> > uncured living rock.
> >
> > Before adding the living rock, nitrite levels had got to about 5 ppm.
> > The Biomature instructions said to keep adding the stuff until nitrite
> > reached 10ppm. I obviously stopped adding it once the new rock was
> > introduced.
> >
> > Two days after adding the rock, though, it looks as if nitrite is over
> > 100ppm, maybe even higher (difficult to tell when the reading is that
> > high up the range on the test kit). Also, ammonia is at the top of the
> > range of the test kit (8ppm) so I guess it too could be higher.
> >
> > Are such high levels going to cripple the cycling process?
> >
> > Is the living rock in danger of being killed?
> >
> > Should I make a drastic water change?
> >
> > Should I start again? If so, can I use the same rock?
> >
> > Or is it OK to just leave it and let the cycling run its course?
> >
> > - Knowleman

[Tre' Landrum]

If you want something to give the tank a little life and help speed up the
cycling process I always use Mollies. They are sold fairly cheep in the
fresh water stores. They are really a brackish fish and will do fine in
either salt or fresh water... but the prefer something in-between (hence
brackish). Throw a hand full in your tank. they will take the cycling easer
than most of the more expensive fish, they are usually farm raised for
aquariums now adays, they help get the water conditioned even before you can
get things such as live rock, and the provide something to look at other
than spinning salt for the first few weeks to months of your tanks life. If
they live you can fish them out and give them to the kid down the block. If
they don't know they served a valuable service to the future of your reef.
Oh yea... the best thing you can do is find a friend who is willing to give
you a cup full of his sand bed. It will be chock full of good bacteria to
get your colony started. Stick it in some panty hose in front of a power
head or just mix it up with the sand you have. The more people you can get
to donate colonized sand the better and faster your bacteria will build up.
Just be sure there is something in there for them to live on (like Molly
waste or live rock break down). Good luck!

Tre'

> I would do a water change, but with nothing except LR in the tank, it
> will likely pull through. In marine aquaria, patience is the key.
> "Start out slow, and taper off from there." is the advice I was
> given. You're months from adding fish, longer before adding inverts.
> Do a water change, maybe 25litres, and just be patient. I've
> never used the 'canned bacteria' either, and everything works out.
> The problems start when you get impatient and start screwing with
> things.
>
>

[Billy]

"Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
news:k79%c.54759$nk.34657@okepread05...
| If you want something to give the tank a little life and help speed
up the
| cycling process I always use Mollies. They are sold fairly cheep in
the
| fresh water stores. They are really a brackish fish and will do
fine in


I'd recommend against that. With his levels the way they are, putting
fish of any kind in there is an un-needed cruelty. Patience.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004

[Tre' Landrum]

Wooah... nitrite over 100! yea...Sorry, obviously didn't read all of the
posts very well. I would defiantly do a water change so you don't kill off
everything in the life rock but the bacteria.... the seeded sand will also
help kick start things. At this point the mollies would just add to the
carnage. Don't you just love this time in a tank... but no worries man, we
have all been there and came through it. Just don't loose too much sleep
(not saying I have ever gotten up to check on a tank of nothing but rocks!
Man would thinks I am nuts)


> "Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
> news:k79%c.54759$nk.34657@okepread05...
> | If you want something to give the tank a little life and help speed
> up the
> | cycling process I always use Mollies. They are sold fairly cheep in
> the
> | fresh water stores. They are really a brackish fish and will do
> fine in
>
>
> I'd recommend against that. With his levels the way they are, putting
> fish of any kind in there is an un-needed cruelty. Patience.
>
>

[Knowleman]

Any view as to what I should try to get it down to (Nitrite level,
that is)?

Is it best to go for one big water change (e.g. 70-80%) or do it in a
series of smaller changes?

"Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message news:<7K9%c.54766$nk.1246@okepread05>...
> Wooah... nitrite over 100! yea...Sorry, obviously didn't read all of the
> posts very well. I would defiantly do a water change so you don't kill off
> everything in the life rock but the bacteria.... the seeded sand will also
> help kick start things. At this point the mollies would just add to the
> carnage. Don't you just love this time in a tank... but no worries man, we
> have all been there and came through it. Just don't loose too much sleep
> (not saying I have ever gotten up to check on a tank of nothing but rocks!
> Man would thinks I am nuts)
>
>
> > "Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
> > news:k79%c.54759$nk.34657@okepread05...
> > | If you want something to give the tank a little life and help speed
> up the
> > | cycling process I always use Mollies. They are sold fairly cheep in
> the
> > | fresh water stores. They are really a brackish fish and will do
> > fine in
> >
> >
> > I'd recommend against that. With his levels the way they are, putting
> > fish of any kind in there is an un-needed cruelty. Patience.
> >
> >

[Tre' Landrum]

Don't do a huge water change. Small ones, or a series of small ones, will
help. But basically this is a normal. The most important thing in your live
rock is the bacteria. Sure all the little critters are great, but it is the
bacteria that you need. Also seeding will really speed things up. There are
commercial bacterial preparations you can buy... and some people swear by
them, but I greatly prefer to get sand from an established tank and place it
in your water column, then mixed in with your own sand. My first tank used
no live rock, no live sand, and cycled with mollies. I don't know how these
"ocean bacteria" made it all the way to Oklahoma, but they managed. It just
takes more time. Good luck.

Tre'

"Knowleman" > wrote in message
m...
> Any view as to what I should try to get it down to (Nitrite level,
> that is)?
>
> Is it best to go for one big water change (e.g. 70-80%) or do it in a
> series of smaller changes?
>
> "Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
news:<7K9%c.54766$nk.1246@okepread05>...
> > Wooah... nitrite over 100! yea...Sorry, obviously didn't read all of the
> > posts very well. I would defiantly do a water change so you don't kill
off
> > everything in the life rock but the bacteria.... the seeded sand will
also
> > help kick start things. At this point the mollies would just add to the
> > carnage. Don't you just love this time in a tank... but no worries man,
we
> > have all been there and came through it. Just don't loose too much sleep
> > (not saying I have ever gotten up to check on a tank of nothing but
rocks!
> > Man would thinks I am nuts)
> >
> >
> > > "Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
> > > news:k79%c.54759$nk.34657@okepread05...
> > > | If you want something to give the tank a little life and help speed
> > up the
> > > | cycling process I always use Mollies. They are sold fairly cheep in
> > the
> > > | fresh water stores. They are really a brackish fish and will do
> > > fine in
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd recommend against that. With his levels the way they are, putting
> > > fish of any kind in there is an un-needed cruelty. Patience.
> > >
> > >

[CapFusion]

"Knowleman" > wrote in message
m...
> Any view as to what I should try to get it down to (Nitrite level,
> that is)?
>
> Is it best to go for one big water change (e.g. 70-80%) or do it in a
> series of smaller changes?
>

Try 50% or so RO water change to dilute anything flowing in the tank. Let
Tre' Landrum do small water change instead. Your main concern from the early
stage is to dilute and remove anything bad in the water. Unless you want to
follow Tre' Landrum and wait for awhile. Also have Protien Skimmer running
to help out the process.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"John D. Maag" > wrote in message
. com...
> The only thing I would worry about is the smell. Otherwise let 'er rip.
IMO
> I burned a lot of RODI water doing unnecessary water changes. becasue the
> "book" said so.
>

You burned alot of RODI water? Do you mean waste?

CapFusion,...

[Tre' Landrum]

All this to say there are about as many different ideas out there as their
are tanks. I think I have done it differently for every tank I have ever set
up! Do your home work, have fun, a little luck, and all will work out.
Tre'
>
> "Knowleman" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Any view as to what I should try to get it down to (Nitrite level,
> > that is)?
> >
> > Is it best to go for one big water change (e.g. 70-80%) or do it in a
> > series of smaller changes?
> >
>
> Try 50% or so RO water change to dilute anything flowing in the tank. Let
> Tre' Landrum do small water change instead. Your main concern from the
early
> stage is to dilute and remove anything bad in the water. Unless you want
to
> follow Tre' Landrum and wait for awhile. Also have Protien Skimmer running
> to help out the process.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

[CapFusion]

"Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
news:SNn0d.57190$nk.19789@okepread05...
> All this to say there are about as many different ideas out there as their
> are tanks. I think I have done it differently for every tank I have ever
set
> up! Do your home work, have fun, a little luck, and all will work out.
> Tre'


Sorry Tre' Landrum, my previous message was not meant to conflict with yours
or got you to a wrong side.

CapFusion,...

[Knowleman]

Thanks everyone for the input. I also phoned around as many dealers
and enthisiasts as I could as I was fascinated by the discussions on
this problem. Had a great conversation wtih guy I had met previously
in a dealer in Yorkshire (250 miles away from where I live on the
south coast of England, but happy to give advice).

He explained that I had initiated something that he does routinely -
i.e. the curing of a batch of newly harvested living rock. He said
that his routine involved getting the stuff in, putting it into a
curing tank then walking away for 2 weeks whilst all the stuff that
had died in transit that couldn't be swilled off the rock went through
the initial rotting process. During this time, Ammonia levels go
through the roof. He said there is therefore no point in even trying
to measure Ammonia during this period as it will be off the scale of
the test kit ("waste of a tablet"). Also, there is no point in doing a
water change as the Ammonia will be back up within 24 hours (waste of
salt and RO water).

After 2 weeks, he does a near complete water change, swilling the rock
in tank water to get rid of all the debris that will have come loose
after 2 weeks curing ("don't want all that crap in your system"). He
then repeats the process for another two weeks. He said there was a
possibility that levels could start to come down by then, but as you
are normally close to the end of the curing period, you might as well
shortcut by doing another major water change.

By this point, levels are normally down to where they can be monitored
with normal test kits (i.e. back on the scale). He said he doesn't
waste a Nitrite test tablet until ammonia has settled down. The whole
cycle takes 5-6 weeks before he has fully cured and stable rock.

His recommendation was that I follow his process that he has tried and
tested for 12 years (his brother 8 years before that) - i.e. swill and
water change after 2 weeks, repeat, then monitor to stability. He said
the end result would actually be much better than if I had not used
the rock I had as the biofiltration in the tank that will be maturing
as the rock is curing will be based on a broader range of bacteria
that have been transported in on the rock.

He reckoned the only downside (apart from the extra work and cost of
major water changes) was that I had probably added 4 weeks to the
cycling time.

Final advice was to stick a protein skimmer onright away. I have
therefore been experimenting with a Prism (see separate posting).

So, at least we have a plan...

(Knowleman) wrote in message >...
> Hi
>
> I started setting up a new marine tank using Waterlife Biomature to
> kick start the cycling process. I was going to add cured living rock
> later. A few days ago, I was advised to add uncured living rock right
> away so it participates in the cycling and settles in during cycling
> period. The logic was that you can never be sure that cured rock is
> actually cured. The tank is 240 litres and I added about 22kg of
> uncured living rock.
>
> Before adding the living rock, nitrite levels had got to about 5 ppm.
> The Biomature instructions said to keep adding the stuff until nitrite
> reached 10ppm. I obviously stopped adding it once the new rock was
> introduced.
>
> Two days after adding the rock, though, it looks as if nitrite is over
> 100ppm, maybe even higher (difficult to tell when the reading is that
> high up the range on the test kit). Also, ammonia is at the top of the
> range of the test kit (8ppm) so I guess it too could be higher.
>
> Are such high levels going to cripple the cycling process?
>
> Is the living rock in danger of being killed?
>
> Should I make a drastic water change?
>
> Should I start again? If so, can I use the same rock?
>
> Or is it OK to just leave it and let the cycling run its course?
>
> - Knowleman

[Tre' Landrum]

Not at all, didn't take it badly... just many different ideas and ways of
doing things... it is funny. Why? Because I certainly can't knock your way
of doing things... it is all what you think is best!

"CapFusion" <CapeFussion...@hotmail.., com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
> news:SNn0d.57190$nk.19789@okepread05...
> > All this to say there are about as many different ideas out there as
their
> > are tanks. I think I have done it differently for every tank I have ever
> set
> > up! Do your home work, have fun, a little luck, and all will work out.
> > Tre'
>
>
> Sorry Tre' Landrum, my previous message was not meant to conflict with
yours
> or got you to a wrong side.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

[CapFusion]

"Knowleman" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks everyone for the input. I also phoned around as many dealers
> and enthisiasts as I could as I was fascinated by the discussions on
> this problem. Had a great conversation wtih guy I had met previously
> in a dealer in Yorkshire (250 miles away from where I live on the
> south coast of England, but happy to give advice).
>
> He explained that I had initiated something that he does routinely -
> i.e. the curing of a batch of newly harvested living rock. He said
> that his routine involved getting the stuff in, putting it into a
> curing tank then walking away for 2 weeks whilst all the stuff that
> had died in transit that couldn't be swilled off the rock went through
> the initial rotting process. During this time, Ammonia levels go
> through the roof. He said there is therefore no point in even trying
> to measure Ammonia during this period as it will be off the scale of
> the test kit ("waste of a tablet"). Also, there is no point in doing a
> water change as the Ammonia will be back up within 24 hours (waste of
> salt and RO water).
>
> After 2 weeks, he does a near complete water change, swilling the rock
> in tank water to get rid of all the debris that will have come loose
> after 2 weeks curing ("don't want all that crap in your system"). He
> then repeats the process for another two weeks. He said there was a
> possibility that levels could start to come down by then, but as you
> are normally close to the end of the curing period, you might as well
> shortcut by doing another major water change.
>
> By this point, levels are normally down to where they can be monitored
> with normal test kits (i.e. back on the scale). He said he doesn't
> waste a Nitrite test tablet until ammonia has settled down. The whole
> cycle takes 5-6 weeks before he has fully cured and stable rock.
>
> His recommendation was that I follow his process that he has tried and
> tested for 12 years (his brother 8 years before that) - i.e. swill and
> water change after 2 weeks, repeat, then monitor to stability. He said
> the end result would actually be much better than if I had not used
> the rock I had as the biofiltration in the tank that will be maturing
> as the rock is curing will be based on a broader range of bacteria
> that have been transported in on the rock.
>
> He reckoned the only downside (apart from the extra work and cost of
> major water changes) was that I had probably added 4 weeks to the
> cycling time.
>
> Final advice was to stick a protein skimmer onright away. I have
> therefore been experimenting with a Prism (see separate posting).
>
> So, at least we have a plan...
>

You mention, he suggest to walk away for 2 week at the initial curing and
come back to do water changes. I would suggest to start regular water
changes from initialial of the live rock. For this reason, you want to try
to keep as much survivior [hitchhiker] from the live rock and any live thing
on it. Thus the reason for purchasing live rock, right? As soon the LR fully
cured, you can inspect any hitchiker that you want to remove or keep.
Example, you do not want to keep the mantis shrimp in your tank and you do
want good bristle worm .... etc..... Beside this, your process of curing the
rock will be quicker and do not have to waste 2 week for those living thing
to die and get decay. The rest of his suggest sound good but the initial
suggestion, I do not recommend. Using RO or RO/DI to do initial water change
I do not consider wasted but testing for Anmonia is a waste, since you
already know it will be high. So there no point of testing at the initial
curing cycle.

CapFusion,...

[erik]

I have to agree. I always thought that "curing" live rock was closer
to "killing" live rock. I haven't added new live rock in many years
but I always did it slowly followed by water changes.


Erik


>
>You mention, he suggest to walk away for 2 week at the initial curing and
>come back to do water changes. I would suggest to start regular water
>changes from initialial of the live rock. For this reason, you want to try
>to keep as much survivior [hitchhiker] from the live rock and any live thing
>on it. Thus the reason for purchasing live rock, right? As soon the LR fully
>cured, you can inspect any hitchiker that you want to remove or keep.
>Example, you do not want to keep the mantis shrimp in your tank and you do
>want good bristle worm .... etc..... Beside this, your process of curing the
>rock will be quicker and do not have to waste 2 week for those living thing
>to die and get decay. The rest of his suggest sound good but the initial
>suggestion, I do not recommend. Using RO or RO/DI to do initial water change
>I do not consider wasted but testing for Anmonia is a waste, since you
>already know it will be high. So there no point of testing at the initial
>curing cycle.
>
>CapFusion,...
>

[CapFusion]

"erik" > wrote in message
...
> I have to agree. I always thought that "curing" live rock was closer
> to "killing" live rock. I haven't added new live rock in many years
> but I always did it slowly followed by water changes.
>

When receiving LR and not doing nothing then.... yes, you killing the LR.
Then there no poing of buying expensive LR in the first place and have it
ship in Next Day or Same Day.
LR = Critter and or anything that is living [bad or good] on the rock.
Water changes is meant to remove already dead and decay AND smell away.
Curing the rock as fast as possible so it can have more survivior.

CapFusion,...