A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].

[Papa Red]

I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the
answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may know
the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta splendens
was housed in a plastic container? The containers in question, are the
rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by 8 inches wide, and
4=B9/=B2 inches deep, that a lady has four of. I turned her on to the
very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she wants to very possibly
purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These Bettas would most
likely have to permanently stay in the plastic containers, except for
when she would be cleaning the plastic containers, for she, like myself,
is on Social Security Disability, and has very little extra spending
money. I raise, among other critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and
have more than enough very small ones to utilize for feeding purposes
for both my Betta, and for any that she might buy. Plus I always
purchase the giant economy sized containers of food for my fishes, and
can use the bringing over extra Betta food as an excuse to go over there
and see just how both she and the fish are.
So, does any one think that there could be any kind of problem with
housing the Bettas in those plastic containers?
I thank you in advance for any possible help that you might render me,
and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with [unto] you
folks.~Dean.

[RedForeman ©®]

| I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the
| answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may
| know the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta
| splendens was housed in a plastic container? The containers in
| question, are the rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by
| 8 inches wide, and 4¹/² inches deep, that a lady has four of. I
| turned her on to the very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she
wants to very
| possibly purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These
| Bettas would most likely have to permanently stay in the plastic
| containers, except for when she would be cleaning the plastic
| containers, for she, like myself, is on Social Security Disability,
| and has very little extra spending money. I raise, among other
| critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and have more than enough very
| small ones to utilize for feeding purposes for both my Betta, and for
| any that she might buy. Plus I always purchase the giant economy
| sized containers of food for my fishes, and can use the bringing over
| extra Betta food as an excuse to go over there and see just how both
| she and the fish are. So, does any one think that there could be
| any kind of problem with housing the Bettas in those plastic
| containers? I thank you in advance for any possible help that you
| might render me, and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with
| [unto] you folks.~Dean.

Personally, I'd be sad to know someone did that... it's a waste of a fish,
IMO... they are to be looked at, interacted with, and you can't really do
that in a plastic rubbermaid container like you describe...

I know the cups they are sold in are worse, but they're atleast
temporary....

If she's that set on getting 4, I'll send her 4 1gallong vases/bowls and
atleast the fish could be admired....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Papa Red]

I said:
I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the |
answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may |
know the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta |
splendens was housed in a plastic container? The containers in |
question, are the rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by | 8
inches wide, and 4=B9/=B2 inches deep, that a lady has four of. I |
turned her on to the very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she
wants to very
| possibly purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These |
Bettas would most likely have to permanently stay in the plastic |
containers, except for when she would be cleaning the plastic |
containers, for she, like myself, is on Social Security Disability, |
and has very little extra spending money. I raise, among other |
critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and have more than enough very |
small ones to utilize for feeding purposes for both my Betta, and for |
any that she might buy. Plus I always purchase the giant economy | sized
containers of food for my fishes, and can use the bringing over | extra
Betta food as an excuse to go over there and see just how both | =A0 she
and the fish are. So, does any one think that there could be | any kind
of problem with housing the Bettas in those plastic | =A0 containers? I
thank you in advance for any possible help that you | might render me,
and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with | [unto] you
folks.~Dean.

You said:
Personally, I'd be sad to know someone did that... it's a waste of a
fish, IMO... they are to be looked at, interacted with, and you can't
really do that in a plastic rubbermaid container like you describe...
I know the cups they are sold in are worse, but they're atleast
temporary....
If she's that set on getting 4, I'll send her 4 1gallong vases/bowls and
atleast the fish could be admired....

My response:
Those fish would be much more than just admired,...Not only would
they be loved and cared for in the extreme, they would most likely add
both time and better health and happiness to that Dear old lady's life,
my friend. Other than myself, few people even know that she exists, much
less visit her, so those Bettas would provide a whole lot more than just
their very colourful beauty.
What I still want to know, is if she does indeed purchase these fish
and place them in the plastic containers, what is the possibility of the
plastic some how effecting the fish negatively? Can any one give me any
conclusive answers to my question?~Dean.

[Eric Schreiber]

Papa Red wrote:

> Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta
> splendens was housed in a plastic container? The containers in
> question, are the rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by
> 8 inches wide, and 4¹/² inches deep

The concern here should be, will the plastic in these containers leach
any harmful chemicals into the water, and potentially hurt the fish?
There really isn't any sure way to answer that. You might try the smell
test, though... if there is no chemical smell inside the boxes, then
they are *probably* ok to use.


> she, like myself, is on Social Security Disability,
> and has very little extra spending money.

Unless the containers are clear, she'll be missing out on a major
aspect of bettas - watching how pretty they are. You can't really enjoy
them fully with a top-down view.

For the extremely budget minded, I recommend a trip to the local
Goodwill store. You can often find 1/2 to 1-gallon glass vases and
containers there that might be a much better choice, usually for just a
dollar or so.

Or, if either of you are craft minded, you can buy a ten gallon tank
new for under $10, and for another $5 worth of materials build dividers
into it. I currently have three bettas (and one available compartment)
in a divided ten gallon.

(pictures on my web site: www.ericschreiber.com/aquarium/tank3.html)


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Dan White]

"Papa Red" > wrote in message
...

What I still want to know, is if she does indeed purchase these fish
and place them in the plastic containers, what is the possibility of the
plastic some how effecting the fish negatively? Can any one give me any
conclusive answers to my question?~Dean.

Can you identify whether the containers were intended to be used for the
kitchen in some way? If so, they would have to be FDA approved, and I can't
imagine any additives in the plastic would be harmful to the fish. If the
containers are new and not FDA approved it might be possible for there to be
some residual hydrocarbons leaching from the plastic, but again, if they are
FDA approved they will already be off gassed before the plastic is formed
into containers. I don't know what affect those hydrocarbons might have on
the fish, possibly none.

My gut reaction is that they would be just fine in them, but you wouldn't be
able to see them. If you just have to use these plastic containers, why not
get one fish first and see how he does after a few weeks?

dwhite

[RedForeman ©®]

| What I still want to know, is if she does indeed purchase these fish
| and place them in the plastic containers, what is the possibility of
| the plastic some how effecting the fish negatively? Can any one give
| me any conclusive answers to my question?~Dean.

Hey Pops...

The plastic containers should be food safe, then they'll be fine...

Suggestion, get one fish, so that only one fish at a time has to be a
prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl... that's just sad.

Can't you scrape up $4 for a glass bowl? Hell, I'll send it to you....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Mary H Healey]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> Suggestion, get one fish, so that only one fish at a time has to be a
> prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl... that's just sad.

Why? Box, bowl, pot, not much difference, really. A shallow container
(4.5") with a large surface area (8"x13") is probably a more suitable
Betta environment than a one-gallon bowl. Filled to within a half-inch
of the top, these boxes hold about 1.8 gallons.

Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
accustomed to?

My main concerns with a small bowl (or box) setup for Bettas would be
temperature regulation and the potential for chemicals leaching from the
plastic. FWIW, I also prefer to have a "side view" of my fish because
health problems are easier to spot from the side than from above, but
it's just a preference.

[RedForeman ©®]

|| RedForeman ©® wrote:
||| Suggestion, get one fish, so that only one fish at a time has to be
||| a prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl... that's just sad.
||
|| Why? Box, bowl, pot, not much difference, really. A shallow
|| container (4.5") with a large surface area (8"x13") is probably a
|| more suitable Betta environment than a one-gallon bowl. Filled to
|| within a half-inch of the top, these boxes hold about 1.8 gallons.

But, the reality is that you won't fill it that much because it'll have a
tendancy to splash, thus, leaving it with less than that, and more shallow
doesn't allow the fish room to swim around, keeping it cramped in a smaller
place... less room to swim, less healthy..

|| Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this
|| bowl preference of yours based on anything other than what you've
|| become accustomed to?

My preference is irrelevent... I'm thinking of the wellness of the fish...
Having HAD bettas, they thrive in certain conditions... and doesn't everyone
want their fishies to thrive???

|| My main concerns with a small bowl (or box) setup for Bettas would be
|| temperature regulation and the potential for chemicals leaching from
|| the plastic. FWIW, I also prefer to have a "side view" of my fish
|| because health problems are easier to spot from the side than from
|| above, but it's just a preference.

that's another reason for not liking the container idea.. no thermometer to
regulate... no filter for cleanliness.... IOW, too many reasons...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Mary H Healey]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> || RedForeman ©® wrote:
> ||| Suggestion, get one fish, so that only one fish at a time has to be
> ||| a prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl... that's just sad.
> ||
> || Why? Box, bowl, pot, not much difference, really. A shallow
> || container (4.5") with a large surface area (8"x13") is probably a
> || more suitable Betta environment than a one-gallon bowl. Filled to
> || within a half-inch of the top, these boxes hold about 1.8 gallons.
>
> But, the reality is that you won't fill it that much because it'll have a
> tendancy to splash,

Actually, a better objection would be that only .5" at the top will
probably require a covering to prevent jump-outs. "A tendency to
splash" is a momentary housekeeping inconvenience and easily addressed
by using a towel. I've always kept my tanks (2 gallon to 50 gallon)
filled within a half-inch of the top, and splashing has never really
been a big red mark against the practice.

But, whatever. Within an inch of the top (3.5" deep), it's still 1.5
gallons. Now, a really large long-finned Betta *might* find that a bit
cramped at full extension, but it's still a pretty fair trade-off.

> thus, leaving it with less than that, and more shallow
> doesn't allow the fish room to swim around, keeping it cramped in a smaller
> place... less room to swim, less healthy..

Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more
important than additional depth in both cases.

> || Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this
> || bowl preference of yours based on anything other than what you've
> || become accustomed to?
>
> My preference is irrelevent...

Your original objection seemed framed with "Bettas are made to be
admired", which has nothing whatsoever to do with the health or
well-being of the animal and everything to do with human preference.

"a prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl" is emotionally-charged language
that does not address fish health. Would you object less if these
2-gallon containers were called "bowls" or "tanks" instead of "boxes"?
Personally, I think the dimensions of these boxes more Betta-friendly
than the usual 2-gallon tanks.

>I'm thinking of the wellness of the fish...

You might consider arguments that address the wellness of the fish,
then, instead of emphasizing the relatively unimportant "visually
pleasing" component. Yeah, it's nice to watch the fish, but the fish
don't care.

> Having HAD bettas, they thrive in certain conditions...

I've kept Bettas, on and off, since rocks were soft. Been out of
fish-keeping entirely for about five years, and I'm just getting back
into it. My last Betta, home bred, died of extreme old age a decade or
so ago.

> and doesn't everyone want their fishies to thrive???

Yep, although I find the term "fishies" somewhat sentimental and
gag-making, to tell truth.

Bettas are shallow water fish who thrive with *horizontal* room to swin,
live food, warm consistent temperatures, and not too much current.

> || My main concerns with a small bowl (or box) setup for Bettas would be
> || temperature regulation and the potential for chemicals leaching from
> || the plastic. FWIW, I also prefer to have a "side view" of my fish
> || because health problems are easier to spot from the side than from
> || above, but it's just a preference.
>
> that's another reason for not liking the container idea..
> no thermometer to regulate... no filter for cleanliness.... IOW, too
many reasons...

But it also argues against commercial 1- or 2-gallon bowls and tanks,
doesn't it?

For someone with no other hobbies or outside occupation, who's willing
and able to find a way to regulate temperature and maintain water
quality with frequent changes, I think it's do-able.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/9/2004 3:31 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I said:
>I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the |
>answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may |
>know the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta |
>splendens was housed in a plastic container? The containers in |
>question, are the rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by | 8
>inches wide, and 4=B9/=B2 inches deep, that a lady has four of. I |
>turned her on to the very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she
>wants to very
>| possibly purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These |
>Bettas would most likely have to permanently stay in the plastic |
>containers, except for when she would be cleaning the plastic |
>containers, for she, like myself, is on Social Security Disability, |
>and has very little extra spending money. I raise, among other |
>critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and have more than enough very |
>small ones to utilize for feeding purposes for both my Betta, and for |
>any that she might buy. Plus I always purchase the giant economy | sized
>containers of food for my fishes, and can use the bringing over | extra
>Betta food as an excuse to go over there and see just how both | =A0 she
>and the fish are. So, does any one think that there could be | any kind
>of problem with housing the Bettas in those plastic | =A0 containers? I
>thank you in advance for any possible help that you | might render me,
>and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with | [unto] you
>folks.~Dean.
>
>You said:
>Personally, I'd be sad to know someone did that... it's a waste of a
>fish, IMO... they are to be looked at, interacted with, and you can't
>really do that in a plastic rubbermaid container like you describe...
>I know the cups they are sold in are worse, but they're atleast
>temporary....
>If she's that set on getting 4, I'll send her 4 1gallong vases/bowls and
>atleast the fish could be admired....
>
>My response:
> Those fish would be much more than just admired,...Not only would
>they be loved and cared for in the extreme, they would most likely add
>both time and better health and happiness to that Dear old lady's life,
>my friend. Other than myself, few people even know that she exists, much
>less visit her, so those Bettas would provide a whole lot more than just
>their very colourful beauty.
> What I still want to know, is if she does indeed purchase these fish
>and place them in the plastic containers, what is the possibility of the
>plastic some how effecting the fish negatively? Can any one give me any
>conclusive answers to my question?~Dean.
>
>

Bettas are warm water tropical fish.
They prefer, and should be kept at a temp between 78-80*f.
You cannot heat a plastic shoe box.
They should also be kept in a minimum of a gallon tank.
I would think that she'd be better off getting a small 1 or 2 gallon tank from
Wal-Mart that comes with an under gravel filter, some even have power filters
(even better). They do sell mini heaters (ones with a pre set temp are somewhat
unrealiable).
I have had no trouble with them, but others claim they have had them cook their
fish.
She'd be spending about the same on one fish, one 1-2g tank, as opposed to 4
fish, 4 clear shoe boxes, and supplies.
It has to do with the quality of life, not quantity.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
Snipped


>Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
>preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
>accustomed to?

Yes....in Thailand.
Don't they also eat dogs?
Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok.
They also still fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.

The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him in a
heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
>don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
>water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
>are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more

>important than additional depth in both cases.
>

To give you a little background on myself, I have kept Bettas for over 26 years
and have bred them on and off for 19.
I specialize in them.
I guarantee you any Betta would smack you after hearing that.
Right now the male in my 75g...is doing his laps around the entire tank.
Up down, side to back...he goes all over the tank..and the entire tank is his
territory.
ALL Bettas benefit from larger tanks and anyone who thinks that it's a waste to
give them more room needs to do some research on these fish, that's for sure.


>Personally, I think the dimensions of these boxes more Betta-friendly
>than the usual 2-gallon tanks.

How so?
Because of the surface area?
How would you get a heater or filter in one of those shoe boxes?
You did say "Betta friendly", so of course you would be thinking of a heated,
filtered tank right?

Bettas prefer to be housed in heated tanks...ALL fish benefit from filtered
tanks...Bettas included.

[Dan White]

"Mary H Healey" > wrote in message
...
>
> Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
> don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
> water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
> are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more
> important than additional depth in both cases.

Hey, to hell with the fish's health in a plastic container. How about the
owner? I just came across this:

:)
dwhite

Tomato stains from microwaved plastic
How do you remove stains from Tupperware: for example, tomato
sauce stains after being reheated in the microwave?

These stains are permanent. Nothing will remove them, as they
are now part of the plastic which has been modified on a molecular level.

This change is caused by the high temperatures experienced in
isolated areas on the perimeters of containers used to heat or re-heat food
in a microwave oven.

There are actually ongoing studies on the increased estrogen
levels (especially in males), believed to be caused by plastic packaging and
using plastic dishes to cook food in microwave ovens. Some researchers are
even trying to draw the link between this and increases in infertility in
men. Yikes!

Not to fear monger, but glass wear may be preferable in the
microwave.

Sorry for the bad news.

[Jim85CJ]

"increased estrogen levels"
That explains "man breasts"... I thought it was just fat :-)

Dan White wrote:

> "Mary H Healey" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
>>don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
>>water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
>>are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more
>>important than additional depth in both cases.
>
>
> Hey, to hell with the fish's health in a plastic container. How about the
> owner? I just came across this:
>
> :)
> dwhite
>
> Tomato stains from microwaved plastic
> How do you remove stains from Tupperware: for example, tomato
> sauce stains after being reheated in the microwave?
>
> These stains are permanent. Nothing will remove them, as they
> are now part of the plastic which has been modified on a molecular level.
>
> This change is caused by the high temperatures experienced in
> isolated areas on the perimeters of containers used to heat or re-heat food
> in a microwave oven.
>
> There are actually ongoing studies on the increased estrogen
> levels (especially in males), believed to be caused by plastic packaging and
> using plastic dishes to cook food in microwave ovens. Some researchers are
> even trying to draw the link between this and increases in infertility in
> men. Yikes!
>
> Not to fear monger, but glass wear may be preferable in the
> microwave.
>
> Sorry for the bad news.
>
>
>
>

[Dan White]

"Jim85CJ" > wrote in message
link.net...
> "increased estrogen levels"
> That explains "man breasts"... I thought it was just fat :-)
>

Mickelson needs to stop eating microwave dinners on the road.

dwhite

[RedForeman ©®]

||||| RedForeman ©® wrote:
|||||| Suggestion, get one fish, so that only one fish at a time has to
|||||| be a prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl... that's just sad.
|||||
||||| Why? Box, bowl, pot, not much difference, really. A shallow
||||| container (4.5") with a large surface area (8"x13") is probably a
||||| more suitable Betta environment than a one-gallon bowl. Filled to
||||| within a half-inch of the top, these boxes hold about 1.8 gallons.

It's apparent that you'd rather argue the details of a theory than the
reality of facts, so with that, I withdraw any comments, suggestion, or
arguments from this conversation, for the reason that it doesn't matter what
anyone says, you're set against them before they are even stated, proven or
otherwise...

||| But, the reality is that you won't fill it that much because it'll
||| have a tendancy to splash,
||
|| Actually, a better objection would be that only .5" at the top will
|| probably require a covering to prevent jump-outs. "A tendency to
|| splash" is a momentary housekeeping inconvenience and easily
|| addressed by using a towel. I've always kept my tanks (2 gallon to
|| 50 gallon) filled within a half-inch of the top, and splashing has
|| never really been a big red mark against the practice.

Seems like apples vs bananas, but like you said, whatever...

|| But, whatever. Within an inch of the top (3.5" deep), it's still 1.5
|| gallons. Now, a really large long-finned Betta *might* find that a
|| bit cramped at full extension, but it's still a pretty fair
|| trade-off.

I'm having a hard time understanding YOUR meaning, 'trade-off'.. there isn't
a trade-off when it comes to the health of an animal... you are their
suiter, it is up to you to provide them with the environment to thrive, not
just live. By your statements, I'm to beleive that my dogs should live fine
in a cage where they can just fit, and not roam around in... My thinking is,
you're just absolutely wrong... on about everything you've stated so far...

|| > thus, leaving it with less than that, and more shallow
||| doesn't allow the fish room to swim around, keeping it cramped in a
||| smaller place... less room to swim, less healthy..
||
|| Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
|| don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
|| water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
|| are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is
|| more important than additional depth in both cases.

flip-flop... you said one thing, now you're reversing it? lemme guess,
you're voting for John Kerry.... oh brother...

||||| Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this
||||| bowl preference of yours based on anything other than what you've
||||| become accustomed to?
|||
||| My preference is irrelevent...
||
|| Your original objection seemed framed with "Bettas are made to be
|| admired", which has nothing whatsoever to do with the health or
|| well-being of the animal and everything to do with human preference.

Perception can lead someone to a wrong answer, and that's where you are...
You could just house a fish and not pay any attention to it.. but where
would the fun be in that?? Do you see where I'm going? Sometimes, by doing
one thing, you get two things from it... Put a fish in a container and
you'll not see it. It may live years, and whoo-hoo that's great... but
where's the fun in watching it, and actually playing with it... You say
you've had bettas, surely you're familiar with flaring and chasing... you
can't do that in a container... you can't interact with them in a box... Am
I getting anywhere?

|| "a prisoner, stuck in a box, not a bowl" is emotionally-charged
|| language that does not address fish health. Would you object less
|| if these 2-gallon containers were called "bowls" or "tanks" instead
|| of "boxes"? Personally, I think the dimensions of these boxes more
|| Betta-friendly than the usual 2-gallon tanks.
||
||| I'm thinking of the wellness of the fish...
||
|| You might consider arguments that address the wellness of the fish,
|| then, instead of emphasizing the relatively unimportant "visually
|| pleasing" component. Yeah, it's nice to watch the fish, but the fish
|| don't care.

You think that fish really don't care whether they're interacted with? Ever
heard the word ISOLATION? That's where the word prison came from.... I used
ti to accentuate the concept of a fish-(prisoner), stuck in a box-(prison),
where there is no interaction-(no friends, family or even windows), which is
considered a punishment by our government.... Why? Because the
government-(you) has control of their environment-(prison cell).

You might just want to find a friend somewhere and argue with them, because
I'm actually tired of this conversation for so many reasons...

|| Yep, although I find the term "fishies" somewhat sentimental and
|| gag-making, to tell truth.

Your arguments are along those same lines....

|| Bettas are shallow water fish who thrive with *horizontal* room to
|| swin, live food, warm consistent temperatures, and not too much
|| current.

They ARE fish... but they thrive when you meet their living requirements...
Do I need to define thrive for you? I can... I will.... To meet or beat a
set parameter of success... a bowl isn't meeting their ideal conditions... a
30g tank would however... a non filtered puddle is what they are used to...
a filtered tank allows them to 'thrive'...

||||| My main concerns with a small bowl (or box) setup for Bettas
||||| would be temperature regulation and the potential for chemicals
||||| leaching from the plastic. FWIW, I also prefer to have a "side
||||| view" of my fish because health problems are easier to spot from
||||| the side than from above, but it's just a preference.
|||
||| that's another reason for not liking the container idea..
|| > no thermometer to regulate... no filter for cleanliness.... IOW,
|| too many reasons...
||
|| But it also argues against commercial 1- or 2-gallon bowls and tanks,
|| doesn't it?

if you're looking for someone to argue with, buy a mirror....

|| For someone with no other hobbies or outside occupation, who's
|| willing and able to find a way to regulate temperature and maintain
|| water quality with frequent changes, I think it's do-able.

Good-bye..

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: (TYNK 7)
>Date: 9/10/2004 11:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>>From: Mary H Healey
>>Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
> Snipped
>
>
>>Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
>>preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
>>accustomed to?
>
>Yes....in Thailand.
>Don't they also eat dogs?
>Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok.
>They also still fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.
>
>The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him in a
>heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.
>

I just thought of something else.
If this older lady has 4 males in 4 plastic shoe boxes, she'd have to be doing
weekly, or even bi-weekly, 100% water changes.
Again, another plus for having a cycled, filtered tank.

[Mary H Healey]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> ...By your statements, I'm to beleive that my dogs should live fine
> in a cage where they can just fit, and not roam around in...

Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite a
significant difference in moving space.

> My thinking is,
> you're just absolutely wrong... on about everything you've stated so far...

Perhaps. But your attempts at persuasion leave me unconvinced.

> || > thus, leaving it with less than that, and more shallow
> ||| doesn't allow the fish room to swim around, keeping it cramped in a
> ||| smaller place... less room to swim, less healthy..
> ||
> || Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
> || don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
> || water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
> || are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is
> || more important than additional depth in both cases.
>
> flip-flop... you said one thing, now you're reversing it?

Not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.

> Perception can lead someone to a wrong answer, and that's where you are...
> You could just house a fish and not pay any attention to it.. but where
> would the fun be in that??

Fun for you, or fun for the fish?

> Do you see where I'm going?

No. How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best
interests?

> Sometimes, by doing
> one thing, you get two things from it... Put a fish in a container and
> you'll not see it. It may live years, and whoo-hoo that's great... but
> where's the fun in watching it, and actually playing with it...

Is there a benefit *to the fish* in interacting with humans? As opposed
to, say, chasing down its own food or being afforded the opportunity to
breed?

> You say
> you've had bettas, surely you're familiar with flaring and chasing... you
> can't do that in a container...

*I* can't do that at all, not being a Betta. Most Bettas of my
acquaintance flared and built nests quite energetically with only a bit
of mirror or some such to provide a stimulus.

> you can't interact with them in a box...

Why not?

> You think that fish really don't care whether they're interacted with?

You equate watching with interaction? And, no, I don't really think
fish care whether their human caretaker interacts with them or not.

> Ever heard the word ISOLATION? That's where the word prison came from...

Anthropomorphic twaddle. How is a 2-gallon container more of a prison
than a 1-gallon bowl?

[Mary H Healey]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> TYNK 7 wrote:
I wrote:
>>>Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
>>>preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
>>>accustomed to?
>>
>>Yes....in Thailand.
>>Don't they also eat dogs?

Somebody eats dogs, but I don't recall who. Cultural differences.
Cripes, some people eat *liver*.

>>Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok.

Again, that's an argument that works both ways. Just because we're used
to housing fish in tanks specifically built for the task doesn't
automatically make it better than less traditional alternatives. Nor
does it mean that the design of those tanks is automatically the most
appropriate configuration for a particular species.

>>They also still fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.

Or wrong.

>>The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him in a
>>heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.

Apart from the concern about chemical leaching from the plastic (and
that may be the real deal-breaker here), maintaining water temperature
and quality would be the real challenges. I certainly agree that she
should start with one, if she starts at all, and wait a few months
between purchases.

> I just thought of something else.
> If this older lady has 4 males in 4 plastic shoe boxes, she'd have to be doing
> weekly, or even bi-weekly, 100% water changes.

More frequent than bi-weekly, I suspect. Or she'd need to find some way
to provide very gentle aeration to disrupt the surface tension.

> Again, another plus for having a cycled, filtered tank.

[RedForeman ©®]

|| RedForeman ©® wrote:
||| ...By your statements, I'm to beleive that my dogs should live fine
||| in a cage where they can just fit, and not roam around in...
||
|| Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
|| ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite
|| a significant difference in moving space.

if the dog could utilize the height, then I'd say a 9' ceiling WOULD be
needed.. but since my golden retriever can't jump that high, she's
constrained to a 1600sqft house... and a 1/2 acre back yard...poor thing...

|| > My thinking is,
||| you're just absolutely wrong... on about everything you've stated
||| so far...
||
|| Perhaps. But your attempts at persuasion leave me unconvinced.

I'm not trying to convince you, persuade you, or even educate you. That's
only possible when someone is open minded enough to see the flaws in their
own statements....

||| flip-flop... you said one thing, now you're reversing it?
||
|| Not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.

and you didn't??

||| Perception can lead someone to a wrong answer, and that's where you
||| are... You could just house a fish and not pay any attention to
||| it.. but where would the fun be in that??
||
|| Fun for you, or fun for the fish?
||
||| Do you see where I'm going?
||
|| No. How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best
|| interests?

Studies have shown that the petting of a dog can and does lower the levels
of stress in elderly people... The OP was talking about an elderly lady,
which in turn, lead me to believe they'd like to have SOME interaction with
the fish other than maintaining it's container...

||| Sometimes, by doing
||| one thing, you get two things from it... Put a fish in a container
||| and you'll not see it. It may live years, and whoo-hoo that's
||| great... but where's the fun in watching it, and actually playing
||| with it...
||
|| Is there a benefit *to the fish* in interacting with humans? As
|| opposed to, say, chasing down its own food or being afforded the
|| opportunity to breed?

Yes, as I stated above, there are many programs available thru your state's
human resources department that take kennel dogs and cats to nursing homes
and let the residents there have time with animals. Thru those programs,
there is a win win situation. The animals love interaction as does the
residents.

||| You say
||| you've had bettas, surely you're familiar with flaring and
||| chasing... you can't do that in a container...
||
|| *I* can't do that at all, not being a Betta. Most Bettas of my
|| acquaintance flared and built nests quite energetically with only a
|| bit of mirror or some such to provide a stimulus.

I guess you've made up your mind, or you'd rather continue being the narrow
minded cync.. Because in reality, I've only tried to open your eyes to the
flaws I see, and since you can't even see those flaws, I challenge you to
find the flaws in my FIRST post... if you can, I'll gladly continue this
converstaion in another thread or offline...

||| you can't interact with them in a box...
||
|| Why not?

um.... because they're in a box?? hello?? McFly????

||| You think that fish really don't care whether they're interacted
||| with?
||
|| You equate watching with interaction? And, no, I don't really think
|| fish care whether their human caretaker interacts with them or not.

The same way you've equated living with being in just enough room to move,
but not enough to roam.... How would you like to be stuck in your closet..
You fit in there don't you, why aren't you just tickled pink to live in
there?

I must be one insane person to think animals have a brain and can construct
the same relational feelings and emotions as humans do... by your statement
above, it's obvious that you just don't or just can't see past an animal as
being a peice of furniture, or a peice of artwork hanging from the wall...
That is sad for you.

||| Ever heard the word ISOLATION? That's where the word prison came
||| from...
||
|| Anthropomorphic twaddle. How is a 2-gallon container more of a
|| prison than a 1-gallon bowl?

If you can't see that, then there really *IS* no hope for N E one to
convince, persuade, or educate you... Sorry about that, I'm just glad that
I'm educated enough to learn, open minded enough to see the other side to
every argument, and glad that I care enough to give the animals under my
care an environment where the THRIVE and not just exist...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[RedForeman ©®]

I just had a thought... Maybe you should take your argument to Faith over at
www.bettatalk.com and maybe she could educate you a bit on the housing of a
betta...

Which is better, a 1.5g rubbermaid container or a 1.5g bowl....???

I'm not EVEN trying to say that what I've said is the word that everyone
should follow, I'm just expressing my deep sincere belief that the container
is less of a good idea than a bowl. If you can't see thru your haze of
having to argue, then I simply give up...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Mary H Healey]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> || RedForeman ©® wrote:
> ||| ...By your statements, I'm to beleive that my dogs should live fine
> ||| in a cage where they can just fit, and not roam around in...
> ||
> || Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
> || ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite
> || a significant difference in moving space.
>
> if the dog could utilize the height, then I'd say a 9' ceiling WOULD be
> needed..

With a 3'x3' footprint?

> but since my golden retriever can't jump that high,

Cripes, my Heeler can. What's wrong with your dog?

> she's constrained to a 1600sqft house... and a 1/2 acre back yard...poor thing...

With or without other canine companions?

> Studies have shown that the petting of a dog can and does lower the levels
> of stress in elderly people...

That's certainly a benefit to the person. What about the fish?

> The OP was talking about an elderly lady,
> which in turn, lead me to believe they'd like to have SOME interaction with
> the fish other than maintaining it's container...

That still doesn't answer the question about how these interactions
benefit the fish.

> Yes, as I stated above, there are many programs available thru your state's
> human resources department that take kennel dogs and cats

Well, you didn't, actually. In any case, dogs and cats aren't fish.

> to nursing homes
> and let the residents there have time with animals.

There are also many programs in place for residents of assisted living
and nursing homes to view birds (caged or feeding stations for wild
birds) and fish.

> Thru those programs,
> there is a win win situation. The animals love interaction as does the
> residents.

Not all residents enjoy these programs, nor are all dogs/cat suitable
for these programs.

> ||| You say
> ||| you've had bettas, surely you're familiar with flaring and
> ||| chasing... you can't do that in a container...
> ||
> || *I* can't do that at all, not being a Betta. Most Bettas of my
> || acquaintance flared and built nests quite energetically with only a
> || bit of mirror or some such to provide a stimulus.
>
> I guess you've made up your mind,

I haven't, really. And some of the pitfalls you mentioned *after* the
initial emotional nonsense was challenged are very real difficulties
with a small-volume setup. Maybe it's all a matter of communication
styles, but I still don't see how a larger volume of water is less
desirable than a smaller one - the comparison is between a 2-gallon
container and a 1-gallon container, remember? I also don't see how the
same volume of water in a deeper configuration is more desirable for
Bettas than a shallower configuration with greater surface area.

It is that the sides of these box containers are opaque? or something else?

> or you'd rather continue being the narrow
> minded cync.. Because in reality, I've only tried to open your eyes to the
> flaws I see, and since you can't even see those flaws, I challenge you to
> find the flaws in my FIRST post...

"Personally, I'd be sad to know someone did that... it's a waste of a
fish, IMO... they are to be looked at, interacted with, and you can't
really do that in a plastic rubbermaid container like you describe..."

"I know the cups they are sold in are worse, but they're atleast
temporary...."

"If she's that set on getting 4, I'll send her 4 1gallong vases/bowls
and atleast the fish could be admired...."

Okay. A waste of a fish, they are to be looked at, interacted with, at
least the fish could be admired - all your words. NOTHING about water
quality, temperature stability, water volume, or about what the fish
needs to thrive. All you reference are what the human would be missing
by not seeing the fish, not what the fish would be missing.

> ||| you can't interact with them in a box...
> ||
> || Why not?
>
> um.... because they're in a box?? hello?? McFly????

Bueller? Bueller?

> ||| You think that fish really don't care whether they're interacted
> ||| with?
> ||
> || You equate watching with interaction? And, no, I don't really think
> || fish care whether their human caretaker interacts with them or not.
>
> The same way you've equated living with being in just enough room to move,
> but not enough to roam...

How much roaming can a Betta do in a 1-gallon bowl? Seriously. That
seems to be the choices here.

> How would you like to be stuck in your closet..

About how I'd like to be a Betta, thanks.

> You fit in there don't you, why aren't you just tickled pink to live in
> there?

For the same reasons that I'm not tickled pink to spend my days in even
50 gallons of warm water, eating worms and bugs and looking for a good
place to blow bubbles, like a Betta. For the same reasons I'm not
enthused about rolling in roadkill and chasing squirrels, like my dogs.
For the same reasons I'm not thrilled with 8 acres of sweet clover and
the company of a few handfuls of oats at the end of the day, like my
horse. For the same reasons I don't consider grapes the ultimate food,
like a cavy. And the birds' delight in bits of soft string for nesting
doesn't do much for me, either.

I provide for each what is suited to each, not what I would would want
in the same situation.

> I must be one insane person to think animals have a brain and can construct
> the same relational feelings and emotions as humans do... by your statement
> above, it's obvious that you just don't or just can't see past an animal as
> being a peice of furniture, or a peice of artwork hanging from the wall...

Nice try, but a bit wide of the mark. How is trying to keep the best
interests of the animal separate from my own selfish preferences a bad
thing?

[Mary H Healey]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> Which is better, a 1.5g rubbermaid container or a 1.5g bowl....???

Wouldn't that depend on the surface area, all else being equal?

[Mary H Healey]

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> Liver & Onions? Great!

Tofu for you, fella. Actually, I'll eat liver. Won't eat beets,
though. Not fresh, not cooked, not pickled, not in borscht, not on
toast, not near, nor far, nor here, nor there. No way, no how.

I would, however, find a way to overcome this
distaste-that-borders-phobia long enough to prepare and serve beets to a
critter that enjoyed them. Goats, for example, are said to be fond of
beets. If I owned a goat I might support beet-growers in some way.

Right there is an argument against ever acquiring a goat...

> Horsemeat's pretty good too if raised for
> consumption and not from a glue factory candidate.

Then I won't worry about you gnawing on my nag. He's been just one
disaster or another away from the "big truck" for 16 years now. By the
time he drops, he'll be too old and tough to cut up with a chainsaw.

Maybe I could eventually use his skull as a tank decoration? That'd
provide an interesting focal point, wouldn't it?

> And for all you horrified dog lovers, it was over 50 years ago.

I don't mind that some folks eat dog. Folks who try to consume *my*
canine, however, can expect to be trapped like the varmints they are and
left on the fenceline as an abject warning to others.

[Eric Schreiber]

Mary H Healey wrote:

> Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
> ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite
> a significant difference in moving space.

Not really a relevant comparison, as (apart from leaping) a dog doesn't
move in three dimensions.

> Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around",
> Bettas don't seem to require a great depth of water.

In their wild environment, bettas live in rice paddies and ditches.
Typically, that's a depth of about two feet.

Bettas, being able to breathe air, don't require as high a level of
oxygenation in the water as other fish do. Certainly they'd benefit
from higher oxygen levels implied by greater surface area, but they
would do just fine without it.

Much more important is general water quality, which depends entirely
upon the care the keeper provides, not the size or shape of the tank.

> How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best
> interests?

A pet that remains interesting and engaging is a lot more likely to be
well cared for than one the owner becomes bored with.


>> you can't interact with them in a box...

> Why not?

If the box is opaque, the fish can't see you. I've got three bettas in
a divided ten gallon on my desk right now, and I assure you they watch
me, and react to my movements, sometimes with considerable enthusiasm.

They don't need that sort of stimulus, obviously, but it stands to
reason that an engaging environment is better for the fish than a
sterile one.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 2:39 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>RedForeman ©® wrote:
>> ...By your statements, I'm to beleive that my dogs should live fine
>> in a cage where they can just fit, and not roam around in...
>
>Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
>ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite a
>significant difference in moving space.
>
> > My thinking is,
>> you're just absolutely wrong... on about everything you've stated so far...
>
>Perhaps. But your attempts at persuasion leave me unconvinced.
>
>> || > thus, leaving it with less than that, and more shallow
>> ||| doesn't allow the fish room to swim around, keeping it cramped in a
>> ||| smaller place... less room to swim, less healthy..
>> ||
>> || Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
>> || don't seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep
>> || water makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that
>> || are 6' high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is
>> || more important than additional depth in both cases.
>>
>> flip-flop... you said one thing, now you're reversing it?
>
>Not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.
>
>> Perception can lead someone to a wrong answer, and that's where you are...
>> You could just house a fish and not pay any attention to it.. but where
>> would the fun be in that??
>
>Fun for you, or fun for the fish?
>
>> Do you see where I'm going?
>
>No. How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best
>interests?
>
>> Sometimes, by doing
>> one thing, you get two things from it... Put a fish in a container and
>> you'll not see it. It may live years, and whoo-hoo that's great... but
>> where's the fun in watching it, and actually playing with it...
>
>Is there a benefit *to the fish* in interacting with humans? As opposed
>to, say, chasing down its own food or being afforded the opportunity to
>breed?
>
>> You say
>> you've had bettas, surely you're familiar with flaring and chasing... you
>> can't do that in a container...
>
>*I* can't do that at all, not being a Betta. Most Bettas of my
>acquaintance flared and built nests quite energetically with only a bit
>of mirror or some such to provide a stimulus.
>
>> you can't interact with them in a box...
>
>Why not?
>
>> You think that fish really don't care whether they're interacted with?
>
>You equate watching with interaction? And, no, I don't really think
>fish care whether their human caretaker interacts with them or not.
>
::mouth agape as I read that::
Wow. You couldn't be more wrong about Bettas. They are quite aware of their
keepers and can even become quite depressed..even to the point of not eating
and becoming sluggish when they leave for an extended period of time (vacation,
hospital stay, ect).
Bettas act quite differently when they see a stranger, but when they see their
keeper, they become very active, some do the side to side wiggle dance, others
flare for their owners....but EVERY single Betta tries hard to get their owners
attention when they see them. Food is NOT the only reason they do this either,
so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.
Many fish are very aware of their keepers, and many haven't a clue.
Do some research on Bettas and you'll soon understand there's much more to
these fish than you are aware of.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: "RedForeman ©®"
>Date: 9/10/2004 3:04 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>.. The OP was talking about an elderly lady,
>which in turn, lead me to believe they'd like to have SOME interaction with
>the fish other than maintaining it's container...

This is exactly why I posted that a small, filtered and heated tank would be
much better than 4 plastic shoe boxes that would need cleaning 1-2 times
weekly, every week until the fish died.
Some Bettas are already elderly when purchased and don't live longer than 1-2
years. However, many live much longer than that. I've had some over 5 years
(most were females...interesting side note..I'm wondering if sex has anything
to do with longevity).
Some Bettas are noted to live 7 years, one I read lived to be 9. However, those
were in lab conditions, in of all places..a lab. = )~
Can you imagine this elderly lady trying to carry an awkward full shoe box,
trying not to spill it (I know how much elderly ladies like making a mess of
their home).
I understand that this thread has gotten a bit out of hand, but I think the OP
has got to understand by now that it would be in the best interest of the
elderly lady to have a tank that can be filtered and heated. Only small water
changes would be needed and a small tank could even be kept on a counter near
her sink.
I love my Eclipse 3g that is on my kitchen counter. It's the perfect Betta tank
IMO.
If the elderly lady insists on having more than one male, a divided 5g could
even fit onto a counter, but then with supplies it would start to add up.
I still think something like an Explorer or Eclipse3 (my personal choice and
recommendation) would be far better than anything else.

[Mary H Healey]

Eric Schreiber wrote:
> Mary H Healey wrote:
>> Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a
>> 9' ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but
>> quite a significant difference in moving space.
>
> Not really a relevant comparison, as (apart from leaping) a dog
> doesn't move in three dimensions.

You obviously haven't met my dogs. Granted, the boys ain't normal, and
cats are the more likely housepet candidates for vertical space.

>> Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas
>> don't seem to require a great depth of water.
>
> In their wild environment, bettas live in rice paddies and ditches.
> Typically, that's a depth of about two feet.

I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and try
to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower body of
water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.

> Bettas, being able to breathe air, don't require as high a level of
> oxygenation in the water as other fish do. Certainly they'd benefit
> from higher oxygen levels implied by greater surface area, but they
> would do just fine without it.

Ah, but "just fine" doesn't cut it. These beasties must *thrive*.

> Much more important is general water quality, which depends entirely
> upon the care the keeper provides, not the size or shape of the tank.

*nod* And the margin for error in a small volume setup is much, much
smaller than that for a larger volume.

>> How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best
>> interests?
>
> A pet that remains interesting and engaging is a lot more likely to
> be well cared for than one the owner becomes bored with.

I suppose, but some pets are more interactive than others. Note, I said
interactive, not interesting. An argument might be made that Bettas
need more interaction with their humans than some other species of fish,
but that argument wasn't made. Other species (many of the tetras, for
example) require interaction with their own kind to be content, and
substituting a human for a school of companions isn't sufficient.

>>> you can't interact with them in a box...
>
>> Why not?
>
> If the box is opaque, the fish can't see you.

Do we know that the box is opaque? Or is that assumed from the
description of "rubbery plastic"?

> I've got three bettas in a divided ten gallon on my desk right now,
> and I assure you they watch me, and react to my movements, sometimes
> with considerable enthusiasm.

I've kept 'em in everything from quart jars (when separating males --
VERY high maintenance) to a 50 gallon tank. One thing about Bettas and
water depth that *does* concern me is not so much the minimum acceptable
depth, but the maximum. Several of my Bettas as they aged had to
struggle to reach the surface in the 50, or a 20H, and often rested in
or on that floating plastic "baby grass". Shallower water seemed more
comfortable for them. Was this a misperception on my part?

> They don't need that sort of stimulus, obviously, but it stands to
> reason that an engaging environment is better for the fish than a
> sterile one.

Still, they'd probably be just as reactive to other moving objects, at
least until they've associated your specific outline with something
desirable (like food, or illumination, or some other fish priority, yes?)

I'm envisioning a container that is open or at least transparent at the
top. Koi in a pond don't seem to have difficulty recognizing and
reacting to overhead movement. I suppose I thought Bettas would
likewise be "interactive" with movement at the top of the container.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 3:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

Snipped

>
>> but since my golden retriever can't jump that high,
>
>Cripes, my Heeler can. What's wrong with your dog?

There's no need to start on the guys dog.
That's low. Just low.

>
>> she's constrained to a 1600sqft house... and a 1/2 acre back yard...poor
>thing...
>
>With or without other canine companions?

When a human takes on the repsonsiblity to owning a canine, they should
understand that they are pack animals. When you only have one, you and your
family become their "pack".
There's absolutley nothing wrong with only having one dog. However, as long as
you and your family are their pack the dog will be happy as a bug in a rug.
On the other hand, if you only have one dog, and leave it on it's own, outside,
away from the family pack...it's suffering horribly and you should be shot in
the bum!
Having more than one dog, yet left alone outside isn't exactly right either,
but at least they have each other.
Having more than one dog, kept inside with the family pack, and having them be
a vital role in the family, yet knowing their places and making sure their
places are all under the youngest family member, now that's the right way!
Actually, that's the right way no matter how many dogs ya have.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 5:18 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

> > In their wild environment, bettas live in rice paddies and ditches.
> > Typically, that's a depth of about two feet.

>I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
>Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and try
>to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower body of
>water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.

This is so common. People seem to automatically think of a Rice Paddie as some
mud puddle a few inches deep.
The reason Mother Nature gave Bettas a labyrinth organ is because of the dry
season. That's when they (Wild Bettas) would be left with small muddy puddles,
hoof prints from hooved mammals, or even a moist spot in some grass.
They can surivive this way until the rains comes and refill the paddies and
Ditches and small streams or ponds.
Check this web page out and look at what a Rice Paddie really looks like...one
not in the dry season, and one that is not in somebody's back yard (I have seen
people give those as an example of how small Rice paddies are...trying to get
folks to believe that how small they all are.
http://www.bettadreams.com/ricepaddies.html

[Mary H Healey]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> ::mouth agape as I read that::
> Wow. You couldn't be more wrong about Bettas. They are quite aware of their
> keepers and can even become quite depressed..even to the point of not eating
> and becoming sluggish when they leave for an extended period of time (vacation,
> hospital stay, ect).

Y'know, vacations and hospital stays have never been big on my agenda.
So I suppose my fish have never been deprived of my magnificence for
long enough to notice.

I guess my question is, what's missing in a Betta's environment that
would make it so reactive to an artificial stimulus (like seeing a
human)? That's not a terribly sentimental view, I know, but sometimes
the sap in me loses out to the pragmatic.

Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
*why*? Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival point
for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a tendre for
something a thousand times or more its size? It's not practical. It
might enhance survival in this specific instance, but it doesn't really
advance the survival of the species.

> Bettas act quite differently when they see a stranger, but when they see their
> keeper, they become very active, some do the side to side wiggle dance, others
> flare for their owners....but EVERY single Betta tries hard to get their owners
> attention when they see them. Food is NOT the only reason they do this either,
> so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.

How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?

> Many fish are very aware of their keepers, and many haven't a clue.
> Do some research on Bettas and you'll soon understand there's much more to
> these fish than you are aware of.

Many of my Bettas were kept in community tanks, and far more interested
in the other denizens of the deep than in what went on outside their
glass confinement. As much as possible, given the constraints of tank
size and individual temperament, I tried to keep my Bettas with other
fish or in close visual proximity to other Bettas.

[Eric Schreiber]

Mary H Healey wrote:

> I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
> Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and
> try to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower
> body of water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.

I looked into it because of the frequent claims about bettas living in
shallow puddles and even rain-filled footprints in the wild (pet stores
will say all kinds of stupid things to sell fish). Somewhere along the
line I stumbled across a detailed web site that showed how rice paddies
on hillsides are built, and their annual cycles, and so on. It was
really interesting, especially for someone who has lived the last two
decades in the middle of corn-growing flat lands.


> Do we know that the box is opaque? Or is that assumed from the
> description of "rubbery plastic"?

I don't believe we know for certain. The OP appears to have very wisely
chosen to avoid this thread.


> One thing about Bettas
> and water depth that does concern me is not so much the minimum
> acceptable depth, but the maximum. Several of my Bettas as they aged
> had to struggle to reach the surface in the 50, or a 20H, and often
> rested in or on that floating plastic "baby grass". Shallower water
> seemed more comfortable for them. Was this a misperception on my
> part?

No, that seems to match my relatively limited experience. I've only
been keeping bettas for about 2 years or so (for my money, anything
TYNK says about bettas qualifies as gospel). In that time I've had a
couple who reached old age, and they spent most of their time resting.
In those cases, a shallower tank might be preferable.

But a good argument can be made that without proper filtration and
heating, which probably won't occur in a shoe box, a betta is unlikely
to reach old age.


> Still, they'd probably be just as reactive to other moving objects, at
> least until they've associated your specific outline with something
> desirable (like food, or illumination, or some other fish priority,
> yes?)

Sure. I doubt they see me and think "Hey, there's Eric! Hi Eric!". The
reaction is probably more along the lines of "Movement = food" or "If
that's another fish I'm going to flare and kill it".


> I'm envisioning a container that is open or at least transparent at
> the top. Koi in a pond don't seem to have difficulty recognizing and
> reacting to overhead movement. I suppose I thought Bettas would
> likewise be "interactive" with movement at the top of the container.

They will be. My bettas can't see me when I approach the tank from the
rear (tinfoil backing to block direct sunlight) but they certainly
react when they see movement at the top of the tank. They know it means
food, and race for the surface.

The concern about being able to see the fish from the side really is
more (in my opinion) for the benefit of the fish owner. She will get
much more pleasure from being able to watch the fish flare and strut
this way. Indirectly, I believe that means the fish is likely to be
better cared for, as it will remain an intriguing pet instead of a
tiresome responsibility.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> I love my Eclipse 3g that is on my kitchen counter. It's the perfect
> Betta tank IMO.

I strongly second that opinion. If $40 can be scrounged up (difficult
on a fixed income, I know), the lady in question would have a very
happy home for her betta.

> If the elderly lady insists on having more than one male, a divided
> 5g could even fit onto a counter

As I recall, a couple tanks in the Explorer line (or one of the similar
all-in-one makes) come with a divider specifically for this purpose.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 9/10/2004 5:55 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Mary H Healey wrote:
>
>> I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
>> Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and
>> try to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower
>> body of water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.
>
>I looked into it because of the frequent claims about bettas living in
>shallow puddles and even rain-filled footprints in the wild (pet stores
>will say all kinds of stupid things to sell fish). Somewhere along the
>line I stumbled across a detailed web site that showed how rice paddies
>on hillsides are built, and their annual cycles, and so on. It was
>really interesting, especially for someone who has lived the last two
>decades in the middle of corn-growing flat lands.

You probably got that from me, Eric. = )

[Eric Schreiber]

Mary H Healey wrote:

> Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you,
> but why? Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival
> point for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a
> tendre for something a thousand times or more its size? It's not
> practical. It might enhance survival in this specific instance, but
> it doesn't really advance the survival of the species.

Nothing about bettas sold in stores really relates to survival in the
wild any more. Most bettas are the result of hundreds of generations of
captive breeding, for traits like color, fin shape, and yes, behavior.
A sluggish betta who hides in a corner is a lot less likely to be bred
than one that's up front, active and personable.

In my wanderings I once read an article that suggested there may not
even be any 'pure' wild betta splendens out there any more that don't
have some touch of human intereference.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> You probably got that from me, Eric. = )

Very likely. I got a lot of good information from you over the past
year or two.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 5:52 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>> ::mouth agape as I read that::
>> Wow. You couldn't be more wrong about Bettas. They are quite aware of their
>> keepers and can even become quite depressed..even to the point of not
>eating
>> and becoming sluggish when they leave for an extended period of time
>(vacation,
>> hospital stay, ect).
>
>Y'know, vacations and hospital stays have never been big on my agenda.
>So I suppose my fish have never been deprived of my magnificence for
>long enough to notice.

>
>I guess my question is, what's missing in a Betta's environment that
>would make it so reactive to an artificial stimulus (like seeing a
>human)? That's not a terribly sentimental view, I know, but sometimes
>the sap in me loses out to the pragmatic.
>
>Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
>*why*?

Who knows. You'd have to ask a Betta. However, you may never know the exact
reason they attach themselves to humans, but they do. Make no mistake about it,
they are reacting their human keepers.

Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival point
>for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a tendre for
>something a thousand times or more its size? It's not practical. It
>might enhance survival in this specific instance, but it doesn't really
>advance the survival of the species.
>
>> Bettas act quite differently when they see a stranger, but when they see
>their
>> keeper, they become very active, some do the side to side wiggle dance,
>others
>> flare for their owners....but EVERY single Betta tries hard to get their
>owners
>> attention when they see them. Food is NOT the only reason they do this
>either,
>> so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.
>
>How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?
>
Why is it so hard for you to believe that these fish are aware of their
keepers? They just are.
Boredom is certainly not the issue. Most of my Bettas have lived with other
fish.
They're community fish and many become depressed without tank mates.



>> Many fish are very aware of their keepers, and many haven't a clue.
>> Do some research on Bettas and you'll soon understand there's much more to
>> these fish than you are aware of.
>
>Many of my Bettas were kept in community tanks, and far more interested
>in the other denizens of the deep than in what went on outside their
>glass confinement.

Or possibly that since you never understood that they will become attached to
their human keepers, he latched onto the other fish in the tank because he knew
you wouldn't be giving him the attention he needed and wanted.
I have several female Bettas and a male in my 75g. It also houses a variety of
other community fish. There is no boredom in that tank for any fish in there.
As soon as I come to the tank...my Bettas are all in my face begging for
attention.
The live bearers are clueless to what's going on outside of their tank. The
Gouramis are aware of my presence, but are still cautious (Pearl Gouramis and
they are still learning to trust I am not going to hurt them). I've had them in
this tank, and out of quarantine for a couple weeks now and they are just now
coming to the front when I am there.
Any Angelfish person will also tell you that these fish are completely aware of
what's going outside of their tank, and who their keepers are.
You can argue and question these facts till doomsday, but try and understand
that these fish are thinking fish. They DO know who you are.
Maybe you just didn't know that so you never noticed their attemps of trying
to get your attention, and all that they do to get it.

[Mary H Healey]

TYNK 7 wrote:
>>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>>From: Mary H Healey
> Snipped
>
>>>but since my golden retriever can't jump that high,
>>
>>Cripes, my Heeler can. What's wrong with your dog?
>
> There's no need to start on the guys dog.
> That's low. Just low.

Sorry. Joke went awry.

> When a human takes on the repsonsiblity to owning a canine, they should
> understand that they are pack animals. When you only have one, you and your
> family become their "pack".

Unless, of course, you acquire a working livestock guardian dog, in
which case the critter's pack becomes the livestock it's guarding.

(For anyone else still hanging on, this is all code for "I know dogs" /
"So do I".)

Are Betta's *naturally* social animals? They certainly seem so in the
artifical environment of a tank or aquarium, but that's not definitive.
As aggressive/territorial as the males are with each other, I would
have thought that their social intercourse was less "let's make friends
/ do lunch / happy to see you" than "let's step outside and settle this
fish to fish".

I suppose at this point I'm wondering whether a fish recognizing and
becoming attached to its human is a good thing for the fish, or a sign
of some deficiency in the environment provided to that fish, one that
could be remedied with a companion or other change.

> On the other hand, if you only have one dog, and leave it on it's own, outside,
> away from the family pack...it's suffering horribly and you should be shot in
> the bum!

Well, most of those neglected critters manage to make the unhappiness
more general. Or so I'm told, by folks whose dogs don't sleep on the bed.

Me, I learned my lesson the first night after Noah arrived. He wasn't
housebroken (heck, he was a little *heathen* in pretty much every
respect), so I kenneled him in the kitchen as I had done with Sam in his
time, and Sam and I went up to bed. The house-shaking mournful howls
had me downstairs and shlepping the crate up to my bedroom in minutes.
Talk about suffering horribly! That dog could HOWL. From that moment
until the day before he died, Noah slept next to or on my bed.

> Having more than one dog, yet left alone outside isn't exactly right either,
> but at least they have each other.

Probably not a wise move with multiples of some breeds. What might be
true of dogs in general isn't always true of a particular individual or
a particular breed.

[Mary H Healey]

TYNK 7 wrote:
>>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>>From: Mary H Healey
>>Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
>>*why*?
>
> Who knows. You'd have to ask a Betta.

Well, I suppose that one step closer to possible than *being* a Betta,
as suggested elsewhere.

> However, you may never know the exact
> reason they attach themselves to humans, but they do. Make no mistake about it,
> they are reacting their human keepers.

And the causation doesn't interest you at all? Not even a little bit?

>>... Food is NOT the only reason they do this either,
>>>so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.
>>
>>How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?
>
> Why is it so hard for you to believe that these fish are aware of their
> keepers? They just are.

Because everything has an underlying cause, or purpose, or design.

> Boredom is certainly not the issue.

So territoriality might be?

> Or possibly that since you never understood that they will become attached to
> their human keepers, he latched onto the other fish in the tank because he knew
> you wouldn't be giving him the attention he needed and wanted.

You're saying that his behavior would be affected by his expectations of
my behavior?

> I have several female Bettas and a male in my 75g. It also houses a variety of
> other community fish. There is no boredom in that tank for any fish in there.
> As soon as I come to the tank...my Bettas are all in my face begging for
> attention.

And this is not in any way related to food? Not related in any way,
shape, or form to operant conditioning with intermittent rewards?

> Any Angelfish person will also tell you that these fish are completely aware of
> what's going outside of their tank, and who their keepers are.

It seems to be common among the larger cichlids. Usually species that
are same-sex or same-species aggressive, if I've understood correctly.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Well, maybe not. Makes me wonder.

> You can argue and question these facts till doomsday, but try and understand
> that these fish are thinking fish. They DO know who you are.

But why should they care?

> Maybe you just didn't know that so you never noticed their attemps of trying
> to get your attention, and all that they do to get it.

Or maybe I figured their bids for attention signified a need for
something other than my bad self.

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> these fish are thinking fish. They DO know who you are.

I make it easy for my bettas to recognize me. I'm the guy who sits in
the chair in front of this computer, virtually motionless except for
typing and mousing, for hours on end, usually all night.

And sometimes I mumble.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 6:29 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>> However, you may never know the exact
>> reason they attach themselves to humans, but they do. Make no mistake about
>it,
>> they are reacting their human keepers.
>
>And the causation doesn't interest you at all? Not even a little bit?

As to *why* they become so attached....nope. I just understand that these fish
get attached to their keepers.
Some Bettas I've had were so tame to me that all I had to do is place my hand,
cupped, into the tank and they would swim right in. Sometimes they'd swim right
through, sometimes they'd hang out as if it were a huge swim.
It's been 26 years and counting and every Betta I've ever had or bred has
become extremely tame and attached to me.
My daughters Betta.....could care less about me. *I* am the one who feeds him.
*I* am the one who cleans his tank, but he lives in her room and knows she is
his keeper. You'd think that since I was the one who feeds him twice daily, for
the past year or so he'd be even a little happy to see me when I walk into her
room.
Nope. Could care less. However, when Holly walks into her room..BAAM! The
show's on...all for her.


>>>... Food is NOT the only reason they do this either,
>>>>so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.
>>>
>>>How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?

In a 75g? No way.
Besides, if it were territorial aggression then when I put my hands into the
tank it would be attacked with biting, which it is not. It is seen as the big
thing that feeds them Bloodworms by hand, the big thing that messes up the tank
(I consider it cleaning though), and sometimes a large hammok.

>> Why is it so hard for you to believe that these fish are aware of their
>> keepers? They just are.
>
>Because everything has an underlying cause, or purpose, or design.

Well how about they just like us.
Sometimes the answer is too simple to see.


> he latched onto the other fish in the tank because he knew
>> you wouldn't be giving him the attention he needed and wanted.
>
>You're saying that his behavior would be affected by his expectations of
>my behavior?

I'm saying that maybe because of your lack of individual attention to the
Bettas they gave up trying.
Other Betta keepers know exactly what I'm talking about.
Hopefully you'll give a new Betta chance and give it more attention....then
you'll be back here gabbing on and on about your little dude and the antics
that it goes through for your attention. Instead of a large community tank, try
something like an Eclipse 3 with a few Pygmy Cories for buddies.

>> As soon as I come to the tank...my Bettas are all in my face begging for
>> attention.
>
>And this is not in any way related to food? Not related in any way,
>shape, or form

Nope.
There have been many Bettas over the years that I have had to leave the room
during feeding *because* they wouldn't eat. They were too busy looking at me to
eat and they end up without any food.
So, I can honestly say nope.

>> You can argue and question these facts till doomsday, but try and
>understand
>> that these fish are thinking fish. They DO know who you are.
>
>But why should they care?

Why should they? How am I supposed to know, lol. = )~
I do know, however, that it makes for some pretty cool fish to keep.
When you have a fish that actually likes to see you, gets all excited just to
have you near it....it makes it more like "pet".
When you know another life form, other than human, cares about you, it's quite
a neat feeling. Well, to me it is.
Non critter folks don't get it (just ask my hubby).

>> Maybe you just didn't know that so you never noticed their attemps of
>trying
>> to get your attention, and all that they do to get it.
>
>Or maybe I figured their bids for attention signified a need for
>something other than my bad self.

No way silly. You shouldn't short change yourself. It WAS your bad self, hehe.
So, have I got your brain juices flowing enough yet to try out a Betta again?
Seriously, if you have a smaller tank or don't mind purchasing something like
an Eclipse3, or similar tank, do it. Park it near an area where you will be a
lot, or for a good deal of time. Something like on the computer desk, a kitchen
counter, a bedroom dresser (I have 3 1g tanks lined up on my dresser with male
Bettas in them). Most Bettas will be begging for your attention before a weeks
time.
Some more submissive ones will take a little longer to warm up to their new
owners.
I just remembered...a few years ago I had this one spawn of Betta fry...there
was a huge female fry (didn't know she was female at first of course), but she
was always in my face doing the wiggle dance, She eventually grew into a lovely
little lady that was so tame to me that all I had to do was stick my hand in
the tank and she was right in it. She even enjoyed a gentle rub down her side
from my thumb. Most fish really hate to be touched, but not most of my Bettas.
I really don't know what else I can tell you to convince you that these fish do
enjoy their human keepers.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Larry Blanchard
>Date: 9/10/2004 6:30 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >, says...
>> Tofu for you, fella. Actually, I'll eat liver. Won't eat beets,
>> though. Not fresh, not cooked, not pickled, not in borscht, not on
>> toast, not near, nor far, nor here, nor there. No way, no how.
>>
>My wife loves beets. Just the smell of them makes me sick. One of the
>few things I absolutely refuse to eat.
>
>But I'd kill for a good English steak and kidney pie :-).
>

I just cannot eat a beet either, yet hubby would knock me down trying to get
the last one, lol.
They taste like dirt....like soil. yuck

[Dan White]

"Mary H Healey" > wrote in message
...
>
> Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
> *why*? Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival point
> for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a tendre for
> something a thousand times or more its size? It's not practical. It
> might enhance survival in this specific instance, but it doesn't really
> advance the survival of the species.
>

I've been following this discussion with some amusement. It's an
interesting mini debate and surprisingly hasn't really degenerated. Let me
take a swipe at answering your question. To me, you are skeptical that a
betta would "take" to a human for no good reason.

I don't have a judgment on the subject one way or the other because I have
no experience, but you could look at it this way: First, there is nothing
"natural" about putting a fish in a glass enclosure that has a big nose and
sometimes a big hairy arm showing up roughly at feeding time, and at other
times, too. So, I don't think you can say that inter-species bonding won't
happen just because there's no reason for nature to want it to happen, or no
"natural driving force." I think more along the lines that the betta has a
brain of a certain capacity or intelligence, and that intelligence will show
itself in one way or another, maybe even unpredictably. In the wild, it
might show up as the ability to avoid and outmaneuver a certain predator, or
recognize when it needs to find shelter because it senses bad weather
coming. In the glass enclosure, these things may be missing, but that
intelligence is still there. The fish just might weave himself an
underwater hammock out of staghorn algae for all we know. It's just a
matter of intelligence (and maybe opposible thumbs). The question, in my
opinion, is whether there is enough intelligence for the betta to bond
emotionally with a human, not whether the betta has a reason to make that
bond, if that makes sense.

dwhite

[luminos]

Those that are true experts with bettas, and breed them for competition, DO
NOT KEEP THEM in the 75 gallon conditions you describe.

I completely discount your expertise in this area.

[luminos]

You are an idiot.

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>>From: Mary H Healey
>>Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
> Snipped
>
>
>>Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
>>preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
>>accustomed to?
>
> Yes....in Thailand.
> Don't they also eat dogs?
> Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok.
> They also still fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.
>
> The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him
> in a
> heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.
>
>

[luminos]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>>From: (Papa Red)
>>Date: 9/9/2004 3:31 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>I said:
>>I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the |
>>answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may |
>>know the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta |
>>splendens was housed in a plastic container? The containers in |
>>question, are the rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by | 8
>>inches wide, and 4=B9/=B2 inches deep, that a lady has four of. I |
>>turned her on to the very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she
>>wants to very
>>| possibly purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These |
>>Bettas would most likely have to permanently stay in the plastic |
>>containers, except for when she would be cleaning the plastic |
>>containers, for she, like myself, is on Social Security Disability, |
>>and has very little extra spending money. I raise, among other |
>>critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and have more than enough very |
>>small ones to utilize for feeding purposes for both my Betta, and for |
>>any that she might buy. Plus I always purchase the giant economy | sized
>>containers of food for my fishes, and can use the bringing over | extra
>>Betta food as an excuse to go over there and see just how both | =A0 she
>>and the fish are. So, does any one think that there could be | any kind
>>of problem with housing the Bettas in those plastic | =A0 containers? I
>>thank you in advance for any possible help that you | might render me,
>>and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with | [unto] you
>>folks.~Dean.
>>
>>You said:
>>Personally, I'd be sad to know someone did that... it's a waste of a
>>fish, IMO... they are to be looked at, interacted with, and you can't
>>really do that in a plastic rubbermaid container like you describe...
>>I know the cups they are sold in are worse, but they're atleast
>>temporary....
>>If she's that set on getting 4, I'll send her 4 1gallong vases/bowls and
>>atleast the fish could be admired....
>>
>>My response:
>> Those fish would be much more than just admired,...Not only would
>>they be loved and cared for in the extreme, they would most likely add
>>both time and better health and happiness to that Dear old lady's life,
>>my friend. Other than myself, few people even know that she exists, much
>>less visit her, so those Bettas would provide a whole lot more than just
>>their very colourful beauty.
>> What I still want to know, is if she does indeed purchase these fish
>>and place them in the plastic containers, what is the possibility of the
>>plastic some how effecting the fish negatively? Can any one give me any
>>conclusive answers to my question?~Dean.
>>
>>
>
> Bettas are warm water tropical fish.
> They prefer, and should be kept at a temp between 78-80*f.


Let us assume that the room temperature is 75- 80 degrees year round. So
your point is?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: "luminos"
>Date: 9/11/2004 6:28 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Those that are true experts with bettas, and breed them for competition, DO
>NOT KEEP THEM in the 75 gallon conditions you describe.
>
>I completely discount your expertise in this area.
>

I never said I bred them for competion.
Of course you wouldn't keep a show Betta in a 75g community tank, duh!
By the way, I really don't care that you discount my expertise.
You've still much to learn about Bettas.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: "luminos"
>Date: 9/11/2004 6:29 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>You are an idiot.

Silly little child, has to call names now.

[Eric Schreiber]

luminos wrote:

> Those that are true experts with bettas, and breed them for
> competition, DO NOT KEEP THEM in the 75 gallon conditions you
> describe. I completely discount your expertise in this area.


1. She did not say she bred bettas for competition.
2. Even if she did, that doesn't preclude an individual being kept in a
75 gallon tank.
3. Your loss. Most of us here recognize that TYNK is an expert where
bettas are concerned.



--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

luminos wrote:

>> Bettas are warm water tropical fish.
>> They prefer, and should be kept at a temp between 78-80*f.

> Let us assume that the room temperature is 75- 80 degrees year round.
> So your point is?

Unfortunately, that is not a safe assumption. For example, in the
summer I keep my house at 73 degrees. In the winter, it stays at 68.
Cooler still in the basement.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[NetMax]

"Papa Red" > wrote in message
...
I was asked a question about Bettas, and not knowing for sure the
answer, I thought that I would post here and ask if anyone else may know
the answer. Does anyone know if it would be okay if a Betta splendens
was housed in a plastic container? The containers in question, are the
rubber-like plastic shoe boxes, 13 inches long, by 8 inches wide, and
4¹/² inches deep, that a lady has four of. I turned her on to the
very colourful beauty of these fish, and now she wants to very possibly
purchase not just one, but four, one at a time. These Bettas would most
likely have to permanently stay in the plastic containers, except for
when she would be cleaning the plastic containers, for she, like myself,
is on Social Security Disability, and has very little extra spending
money. I raise, among other critters, crickets [Acheta domestica], and
have more than enough very small ones to utilize for feeding purposes
for both my Betta, and for any that she might buy. Plus I always
purchase the giant economy sized containers of food for my fishes, and
can use the bringing over extra Betta food as an excuse to go over there
and see just how both she and the fish are.
So, does any one think that there could be any kind of problem with
housing the Bettas in those plastic containers?
I thank you in advance for any possible help that you might render me,
and Pax Vobiscum,....or in english, Peace be with [unto] you
folks.~Dean.

Wow, what a long thread. I'm have to take the time to read it through
when I have the time. In regards to your question, I think any FDA or
similar agency food-grade approved plastic will meet the technical
requirements, but I would not recommend it for anything more than the
most temporary accomodations (a couple of days).

A fish's environment (or any animal) is not strickly the area they
physically move over, but rather it's the area they see. This is
especially true of fish, whose range would normally be huge as compared
to aquariums. We fool them by giving them a large clear unrestricted
view (through the glass to our homes). In various tests, it's been
demonstrated that fish behave as if the environment outside the glass is
theirs, even though they cannot enter it.

Keeping a similar water volume while making the sides opaque (plastic)
would not (imo) be comparable to clear sides. For a fish raised with
clear glass, moving them to plastic sides would be an act of some
cruelty, though the extent would vary tremendously by species.
Schooling/shoaling fish would probably find no discomfort in it, if the
volume was sufficient (ie: 30-40g), but territorial or carniverous fish
could suffer tremendously. Bettas are both territorial and carnivores.
I think that it would be somewhat equivilant to a person being placed in
a small jail cell, in solitary confinement, and not being told how long
they would be left there.

Only my opinion, of course. Thanks for asking!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[luminos]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> luminos wrote:
>
>>> Bettas are warm water tropical fish.
>>> They prefer, and should be kept at a temp between 78-80*f.
>
>> Let us assume that the room temperature is 75- 80 degrees year round.
>> So your point is?
>
> Unfortunately, that is not a safe assumption. For example, in the
> summer I keep my house at 73 degrees. In the winter, it stays at 68.
> Cooler still in the basement.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

It may not be a safe assumption, but it is a possible assumption. I live in
an environment that never varies more than 5 degrees from 78 degress F over
an entire year. I have absolutely no heaters.

[luminos]

I do not.

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> luminos wrote:
>
>> Those that are true experts with bettas, and breed them for
>> competition, DO NOT KEEP THEM in the 75 gallon conditions you
>> describe. I completely discount your expertise in this area.
>
>
> 1. She did not say she bred bettas for competition.
> 2. Even if she did, that doesn't preclude an individual being kept in a
> 75 gallon tank.
> 3. Your loss. Most of us here recognize that TYNK is an expert where
> bettas are concerned.
>
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

luminos wrote:

>> Most of us here recognize that TYNK is an expert where
>> bettas are concerned.

> I do not.


I get that, yeah.

Curiously, your negative opinion just serves to strengthen my positive
one.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Happy'Cam'per]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> Wow, what a long thread. I'm have to take the time to read it through
> when I have the time. In regards to your question, I think any FDA or
> similar agency food-grade approved plastic will meet the technical
> requirements, but I would not recommend it for anything more than the
> most temporary accomodations (a couple of days).
>

*****ing Myself at this thread*
That was most ammusing, thanks folks :)
The most educational fact out of that thread was I now know that a female
Rabbit is called a Doe, fancy that!!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[RedForeman ©®]

Please do me the favor of blocking me, or whatever it is so that you don't
have to be bothered by my posts... it's obvious to me that you're
delusional, and you obviously think I'm a moron, so pretty please, ignore my
posts, as I promise to ignore yours...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Mary H Healey]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> No way silly. You shouldn't short change yourself. It WAS your bad self, hehe.

<g> Don't start that. You have no idea what a monster you might unleash.

> So, have I got your brain juices flowing enough yet to try out a Betta again?

Love to, but all I've got running right now is a 20H with an
unfortunately huge number of "sacrifice" White Clouds in it. (Tried to
buy a few feeder fish to cycle the tank, and the salesperson generously
dumped 2 dozen or more in the bag. Poor little buggers are growing like
weeds, and I may have to set up another tank to give 'em some room as
they grow. Oh, wait, that's how I got 6 tanks deep into this hobby the
last time ...)

Trying to take it slower this time. The technology is quite a bit
different now than it was twenty years ago -- it'll take me awhile to
get caught up.

[Jim85CJ]

"The most educational fact out of that thread was I now know that a
female Rabbit is called a Doe, fancy that!!!"
I learned that as well...

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Wow, what a long thread. I'm have to take the time to read it through
>>when I have the time. In regards to your question, I think any FDA or
>>similar agency food-grade approved plastic will meet the technical
>>requirements, but I would not recommend it for anything more than the
>>most temporary accomodations (a couple of days).
>>
>
>
> *****ing Myself at this thread*
> That was most ammusing, thanks folks :)
> The most educational fact out of that thread was I now know that a female
> Rabbit is called a Doe, fancy that!!!
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
>

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/13/2004 10:43 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>> No way silly. You shouldn't short change yourself. It WAS your bad self,
>hehe.
>
><g> Don't start that. You have no idea what a monster you might unleash.
>
>> So, have I got your brain juices flowing enough yet to try out a Betta
>again?
>
>Love to, but all I've got running right now is a 20H with an
>unfortunately huge number of "sacrifice" White Clouds in it. (Tried to
>buy a few feeder fish to cycle the tank, and the salesperson generously
>dumped 2 dozen or more in the bag. Poor little buggers are growing like
>weeds, and I may have to set up another tank to give 'em some room as
>they grow. Oh, wait, that's how I got 6 tanks deep into this hobby the
>last time ...)
>
>Trying to take it slower this time. The technology is quite a bit
>different now than it was twenty years ago -- it'll take me awhile to
>get caught up.
>
>

Isn't that the truth!
There's always room for one more tank, lol.

[Papa Red]

First off Sport, my name ain't "Pops"! Second off, I don't know where
you live, but where I live, I have yet to find any container suitable
for the housing of one of these beautiful creatures costing anywhere
near as little as $4.00. And besides, if it was just a matter of I
purchasing the containers for the fish for her, I could possibly do it,
but she wouldn't accept them, something that I can understand, for her
and I share something, that of being on Social Security Disability,
after a lifetime of full-time working since childhood. It tends to make
it difficult to accept 'gifts'.

[Papa Red]

As far=A0as keeping the temperature of the container's water warm, her
and I both live here on the very southern end of Miami Beach, Florida
[U.S.], in an area called, "South Beach", so most of the time that is
not a problem.

[Papa Red]

Both her and I have the time that it takes to take care of these fish.
She especially, for right now she spends far too much time basically
thinking that everything is in the past tense, if you know what I mean.
These fish will give her an anchor in the here and now, which, as stated
in articles published in the Journal of the American Medical
Association, and in the Lancet, the british medical journal, and others,
have well documented.
If I had a car, I think that I would be motivated to go around to the
different 'assisted-living facilities' and try and sell them on the idea
of having the elderly persons living there keep Bettas. I am quite sure
that it could only make their quality of life much better, for both the
fish and the person.

[Papa Red]

Keeping the water in the Betta's container is no problem, living here in
South Beach. But as far as going to Wal-mart or someplace similar, that
would be rather difficult, for neither she nor I have cars, and there's
no way that she'd ride on the back of my Yamaha Zuma 2 motor scooter,
even if there was one of those places close enough to drive to on it.

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
From: Mary H Healey
Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
=A0=A0Snipped
Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
accustomed to?

Yes....in Thailand.

{"Ching-ching sa-dooey, krop!"[Thai], or in english, "Correct, that's
right, sir/m'am}. I know this to be true, because I've been there, seen
that with my own eyes, during my tour of duty <'68-71>}.


Don't they also eat dogs?

{"Chi krop" Yes sir,...the Chinese do. And you eat aquatic arachnids
[lobsters/crabs, etc.]too, don't you?}

Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok. They also still
fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.

{They do that here in South Florida too, something that, if possible, I
would like to help to change}

The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him
in a heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.

{And just how would she get that heated tank, living on Miami Beach, for
there are no big malls or big stores here, only tons of tourists traps
(and tourists, models & movie stars),... I just wish there was some of
those big stores nearby, for then we wouldn't have to deal with a pet
shop where everything is far more expensive, and they don't know much
about the creatures that they sell.
It would be nice if we can get a tank the same way that I got two of
my three aquariums, from this fella who is a streetperson, pushing an
overloaded shopping cart, filled with all sorts of things that he had
gathered. I purchased the ten gallon tank for five dollars from him,
and it was brand new. In fact, right now it still has the paper sticker
on it, put there by the manufacturing company, that's how new it is.
And the 20 gallon only cost me $10.00, and was in great shape. But I
doubt that he will come across tanks like that any time soon.}

[Papa Red]

Snipped
Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
From: Mary H Healey
Date: 9/10/2004 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas don't
seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep water
makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that are 6'
high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more
important than additional depth in both cases.
To give you a little background on myself, I have kept Bettas for over
26 years and have bred them on and off for 19.
I specialize in them.
I guarantee you any Betta would smack you after hearing that. Right now
the male in my 75g...is doing his laps around the entire tank. Up down,
side to back...he goes all over the tank..and the entire tank is his
territory.
ALL Bettas benefit from larger tanks and anyone who thinks that it's a
waste to give them more room needs to do some research on these fish,
that's for sure.
Personally, I think the dimensions of these boxes more Betta-friendly
than the usual 2-gallon tanks.
How so?
Because of the surface area?
How would you get a heater or filter in one of those shoe boxes? You did
say "Betta friendly", so of course you would be thinking of a heated,
filtered tank right?
Bettas prefer to be housed in heated tanks...ALL fish benefit from
filtered tanks...Bettas included.


{As far as the depth of the water, verses the width of the water's
surface, I know that of the indigenous Betta species that I saw in the
wild, the water more often that not wasn't all of much depth, but there
was a whole lot of surface, especially in the patties, et cetera.
And here in South Florida, as there in Thailand, there isn't the real
need for a heater to heat the water, for both Thailand, and south
Florida's climate/ temperatures are pretty much similar.
And as far as the quality of the water that this woman's Betta's
would live in, it would be attended to often enough to forego the need
for a filter.}

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
From: (TYNK 7)
Date: 9/10/2004 11:24 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
From: Mary H Healey
Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
Snipped
Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
accustomed to?
Yes....in Thailand.
Don't they also eat dogs?
Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok. They also still
fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.
The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him
in a heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.
I just thought of something else.
If this older lady has 4 males in 4 plastic shoe boxes, she'd have to be
doing weekly, or even bi-weekly, 100% water changes.
Again, another plus for having a cycled, filtered tank.

{What you have to understand, is that this Lady has more than enough
time to attend to the water changes needed to keep these fish healthy.
And the number of Bettas that she'd like to get came about because that
is the number of large plastic containers that she currently has.}

[Papa Red]

When one lives on Miami Beach [Florida], especially here on South Beach,
the playground of the rich and famous, and surviving on just what one
gets from their Social Security Disability cheque, one is lucky to be
able to afford to purchase a Betta at around $5.00 a piece and feed it.
I am luckier than most, because I have raised a bunch of crickets
[Acheta domestica] for over a decade, from when I had other creatures,
including reptiles, tarantulas and scorpions, so I have plenty of
'pinheads', small crickets, that I feed my three Bettas And, if she
gets some Bettas, I can bring some pinheads over to her house to feed
the Bettas, which will be great for them, and give me yet another excuse
to come by and help her, saving her some money on food for them.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].TYNK 7
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 8:52 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: (TYNK 7)
>Date: 9/10/2004 11:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 9:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>Snipped
>Aren't Bettas raised in pots in some parts of the world? Is this bowl
>preference of yours based on anything other than what you've become
>accustomed to?
>Yes....in Thailand.
>Don't they also eat dogs?
>Just because it's done doesn't make it better, or ok. They also still
>fight the males in betting rings. Doesn't make it right.
>The dear old woman would be better off to get one male, not 4, house him
>in a heated tank, rather than have 4 in a plastic shoe box.
>I just thought of something else.
>If this older lady has 4 males in 4 plastic shoe boxes, she'd have to be
>doing weekly, or even bi-weekly, 100% water changes.
>Again, another plus for having a cycled, filtered tank.
>
>{What you have to understand, is that this Lady has more than enough
>time to attend to the water changes needed to keep these fish healthy.
>And the number of Bettas that she'd like to get came about because that
>is the number of large plastic containers that she currently has.}

I'm wondering about the age of this "elderly woman". I hear that I think my
Grams. Near 80 yrs old, pretty good health, however, wouldn't be able to walk
with an awkward container full of water to the sink.

As for compairing the housiong situations of Bettas in Thailand, they're almost
a different fish out ther. They are not long finned. It does make a difference.
Their total mass of these fish is just not the same.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 8:25 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Snipped
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: Mary H Healey
>Date: 9/10/2004 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas don't
>seem to require a great depth of water. Keeping Bettas in deep water
>makes as much sense as keeping pet birds in "flight cages" that are 6'
>high and only 2' wide. Maximizing the horizontal aspects is more
>important than additional depth in both cases.
>To give you a little background on myself, I have kept Bettas for over
>26 years and have bred them on and off for 19.
>I specialize in them.
>I guarantee you any Betta would smack you after hearing that. Right now
>the male in my 75g...is doing his laps around the entire tank. Up down,
>side to back...he goes all over the tank..and the entire tank is his
>territory.
>ALL Bettas benefit from larger tanks and anyone who thinks that it's a
>waste to give them more room needs to do some research on these fish,
>that's for sure.
>Personally, I think the dimensions of these boxes more Betta-friendly
>than the usual 2-gallon tanks.
>How so?
>Because of the surface area?
>How would you get a heater or filter in one of those shoe boxes? You did
>say "Betta friendly", so of course you would be thinking of a heated,
>filtered tank right?
>Bettas prefer to be housed in heated tanks...ALL fish benefit from
>filtered tanks...Bettas included.
>
>
>{As far as the depth of the water, verses the width of the water's
>surface, I know that of the indigenous Betta species that I saw in the
>wild, the water more often that not wasn't all of much depth, but there
>was a whole lot of surface, especially in the patties, et cetera.
> And here in South Florida, as there in Thailand, there isn't the real
>need for a heater to heat the water, for both Thailand, and south
>Florida's climate/ temperatures are pretty much similar.
> And as far as the quality of the water that this woman's Betta's
>would live in, it would be attended to often enough to forego the need
>for a filter.}
>

Again, compairing the wild Bettas and their habitats to our "man made"
Splendens with their long fins, and now even giant bodies, there's really no
comparison.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].Mary H. Healey
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:19 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>As far=A0as keeping the temperature of the container's water warm, her
>and I both live here on the very southern end of Miami Beach, Florida
>[U.S.], in an area called, "South Beach", so most of the time that is
>not a problem.
>

Don't the nights get pretty chilly?
Fluctuating temps was my concern.
By using a heater, when the room temp drops, the heater would turn on at keep
the fish's tank a constant, steady temp. That is the more important issue.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].Mary H. Healey
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:49 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Both her and I have the time that it takes to take care of these fish.
>She especially, for right now she spends far too much time basically
>thinking that everything is in the past tense, if you know what I mean.
>These fish will give her an anchor in the here and now, which, as stated
>in articles published in the Journal of the American Medical
>Association, and in the Lancet, the british medical journal, and others,
>have well documented.
> If I had a car, I think that I would be motivated to go around to the
>different 'assisted-living facilities' and try and sell them on the idea
>of having the elderly persons living there keep Bettas. I am quite sure
>that it could only make their quality of life much better, for both the
>fish and the person.
>

You're on the right track with that idea, for sure!
I have an Auntie that fried her brain on the drug "Crack". She must live in
Nursing care center. KNowing how lonely she is all the time, even though there
are many there just like her, and knowing how much of a fish freak she has
laways been (actually she was the person who turned me onto Bettas when I was a
small child), I brought her a Betta. I can't even begine to tell you what that
little dude has done for her.
More and more of the folks there want one of their own now.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].TYNK7
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 7:00 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

(snipped)

>there's
>no way that she'd ride on the back of my Yamaha Zuma 2 motor scooter,

LOL...have ya asked her?

[Papa Red]

I will be having a medical procedure in a couple of weeks that will
require me to stay in hospital for at least four days.
I currently have a 10 and two 20 gallon tanks. In the 10 gallon is
one Betta all by himself. In one of the 20 gallon tanks are: two Mystus
armatus [orange-silverish catfish]; three Plecostomus catfish; one
Betta; and three Corydoras virginae. In the second 20 gallon tank, I
have: one Betta; two Plecos; and eight various types of Corys.
My question being, what should I do prior to going into hospital? I
know that there is a type of solid food source one can purchase and
place into their tanks, but is it something that the Bettas will eat?
What about the others that I have noted, do you know if they will all
eat from the same sort of solid food source?
I have one, and am planning to purchase two more battery-powered air
pumps to run in concert with the regular plug-in types, just in case the
power were to go out while I am away. I have already tested the one
that I currently have that runs on two "D" type batteries. I had to
leave during the time Hurricane Frances came a visiting, and they lasted
from 10:49am, on September 2nd, and was still running on September 7th,
at around noon [I had much fewer fish in only one tank then]. Can any
of you folks suggest anything else that I can do to ensure their health
and happiness, while I am away for four days, coping with the results
from the follies of me ill-spent youth? I would truly appreciate any
and all help that y'all might provide. Pax Vobiscum,...~Dean.

[Papa Red]

Eric Schreiber wrote:
Mary H Healey wrote:
Would it be better to confine a dog to a 3'x3' floor space with a 9'
ceiling, or a 3'x9' space with a 3' ceiling? Same volume, but quite a
significant difference in moving space.
Not really a relevant comparison, as (apart from leaping) a dog doesn't
move in three dimensions.
You obviously haven't met my dogs. Granted, the boys ain't normal, and
cats are the more likely housepet candidates for vertical space.
Less surface area = less healthy. As for swimming "around", Bettas don't
seem to require a great depth of water.
In their wild environment, bettas live in rice paddies and ditches.
Typically, that's a depth of about two feet.
I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and try
to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower body of
water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.
Bettas, being able to breathe air, don't require as high a level of
oxygenation in the water as other fish do. Certainly they'd benefit from
higher oxygen levels implied by greater surface area, but they would do
just fine without it.
Ah, but "just fine" doesn't cut it. These beasties must *thrive*.
Much more important is general water quality, which depends entirely
upon the care the keeper provides, not the size or shape of the tank.
*nod* And the margin for error in a small volume setup is much, much
smaller than that for a larger volume.
How does your fun have anything to do with the critter's best interests?
A pet that remains interesting and engaging is a lot more likely to be
well cared for than one the owner becomes bored with.
I suppose, but some pets are more interactive than others. Note, I said
interactive, not interesting. An argument might be made that Bettas need
more interaction with their humans than some other species of fish, but
that argument wasn't made. Other species (many of the tetras, for
example) require interaction with their own kind to be content, and
substituting a human for a school of companions isn't sufficient.
you can't interact with them in a box...
Why not?
If the box is opaque, the fish can't see you.
Do we know that the box is opaque? Or is that assumed from the
description of "rubbery plastic"?
I've got three bettas in a divided ten gallon on my desk right now, and
I assure you they watch me, and react to my movements, sometimes with
considerable enthusiasm.
I've kept 'em in everything from quart jars (when separating males --
VERY high maintenance) to a 50 gallon tank. One thing about Bettas and
water depth that *does* concern me is not so much the minimum acceptable
depth, but the maximum. Several of my Bettas as they aged had to
struggle to reach the surface in the 50, or a 20H, and often rested in
or on that floating plastic "baby grass". Shallower water seemed more
comfortable for them. Was this a misperception on my part?
They don't need that sort of stimulus, obviously, but it stands to
reason that an engaging environment is better for the fish than a
sterile one.
Still, they'd probably be just as reactive to other moving objects, at
least until they've associated your specific outline with something
desirable (like food, or illumination, or some other fish priority,
yes?)
I'm envisioning a container that is open or at least transparent at the
top. Koi in a pond don't seem to have difficulty recognizing and
reacting to overhead movement. I suppose I thought Bettas would likewise
be "interactive" with movement at the top of the container.
--------------------------------------------
{I know all about rice patties,...In fact, for a while there in certain
parts of S.E.Asia, I was at times very much up close and personal with a
few rice patties I came across,...Didn't want to come in contact with
all of the 'bumblebees' flyin' by my head<LOL>.
By the way, the Bettas that I saw there [in the rice patties, et
cetera, in Thaiand}, were different shades of brown, as I recall, and
looked much more like the female Bettas that I have seen. And as far as
the quality of the water that I saw them swimming in,...you don't even
what I should tell you what the indigenous folks there do out in them
there rice patties<LOL>. Pax Vobiscum,...~Dean.

[Papa Red]

Mary H Healey wrote:
I didn't know that. I knew about rice paddies and ditches being a
Betta's natural element, but I've never encountered growing rice and try
to stay out of ditches, so I was visualizing a much shallower body of
water. Six to twelve inches or so. Thank you.

I looked into it because of the frequent claims about bettas living in
shallow puddles and even rain-filled footprints in the wild (pet stores
will say all kinds of stupid things to sell fish). Somewhere along the
line I stumbled across a detailed web site that showed how rice paddies
on hillsides are built, and their annual cycles, and so on. It was
really interesting, especially for someone who has lived the last two
decades in the middle of corn-growing flat lands.
-----------------------------------------------
First off, those types of rice patties were not the kind that I saw in
Thailand, Viet Nam, et cetera,...At least not the ones that I walked,
ran, crawled, and sometimes just layed in, hunkerin' down as best I
could. And they were not the kind that I saw the indigenous, wild
Bettas swimming in.~Dean.
-------------------------------------------------
Do we know that the box is opaque? Or is that assumed from the
description of "rubbery plastic"?
--------------------------------------------------
The four plastic containers are opaque. But like a small clearwater
pond, the fish would be seen very clearly from above the surface. And at
least once a week, I would take a real good look at them, and if need
be, place them in a glass bowl for a closer examination. ~Dean.
---------------------------------------------------
I don't believe we know for certain. The OP appears to have very wisely
chosen to avoid this thread.
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, if by "OP", you are referring to me and my absence of a wee
few days,....I was a wee bit busy with a couple of hurricanes, some
medical tests, and with helpin' some folks out,...~Dean.
-------------------------------------------------
One thing about Bettas
and water depth that does concern me is not so much the minimum
acceptable depth, but the maximum. Several of my Bettas as they aged had
to struggle to reach the surface in the 50, or a 20H, and often rested
in or on that floating plastic "baby grass". Shallower water seemed more
comfortable for them. Was this a misperception on my part?
No, that seems to match my relatively limited experience. I've only been
keeping bettas for about 2 years or so (for my money, anything TYNK says
about bettas qualifies as gospel). In that time I've had a couple who
reached old age, and they spent most of their time resting. In those
cases, a shallower tank might be preferable.
But a good argument can be made that without proper filtration and
heating, which probably won't occur in a shoe box, a betta is unlikely
to reach old age.
Still, they'd probably be just as reactive to other moving objects, at
least until they've associated your specific outline with something
desirable (like food, or illumination, or some other fish priority,
yes?)
Sure. I doubt they see me and think "Hey, there's Eric! Hi Eric!". The
reaction is probably more along the lines of "Movement = food" or "If
that's another fish I'm going to flare and kill it".
I'm envisioning a container that is open or at least transparent at the
top. Koi in a pond don't seem to have difficulty recognizing and
reacting to overhead movement. I suppose I thought Bettas would likewise
be "interactive" with movement at the top of the container.
They will be. My bettas can't see me when I approach the tank from the
rear (tinfoil backing to block direct sunlight) but they certainly react
when they see movement at the top of the tank. They know it means food,
and race for the surface.
The concern about being able to see the fish from the side really is
more (in my opinion) for the benefit of the fish owner. She will get
much more pleasure from being able to watch the fish flare and strut
this way. Indirectly, I believe that means the fish is likely to be
better cared for, as it will remain an intriguing pet instead of a
tiresome responsibility.
--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com
-------------------------------------------------

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
From: Mary H Healey
Date: 9/10/2004 5:52 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
TYNK 7 wrote:
::mouth agape as I read that::
Wow. You couldn't be more wrong about Bettas. They are quite aware of
their keepers and can even become quite depressed..even to the point of
not eating and becoming sluggish when they leave for an extended period
of time (vacation, hospital stay, ect).
Y'know, vacations and hospital stays have never been big on my agenda.
So I suppose my fish have never been deprived of my magnificence for
long enough to notice.
I guess my question is, what's missing in a Betta's environment that
would make it so reactive to an artificial stimulus (like seeing a
human)? That's not a terribly sentimental view, I know, but sometimes
the sap in me loses out to the pragmatic.
Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
*why*?
Who knows. You'd have to ask a Betta. However, you may never know the
exact reason they attach themselves to humans, but they do. Make no
mistake about it, they are reacting their human keepers.
=A0=A0Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival point
for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a tendre for
something a thousand times or more its size? It's not practical. It
might enhance survival in this specific instance, but it doesn't really
advance the survival of the species.
Bettas act quite differently when they see a stranger, but when they see
their keeper, they become very active, some do the side to side wiggle
dance, others flare for their owners....but EVERY single Betta tries
hard to get their owners attention when they see them. Food is NOT the
only reason they do this either, so don't even bother with that reason
to excuse the behavior away.
How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?
Why is it so hard for you to believe that these fish are aware of their
keepers? They just are.
Boredom is certainly not the issue. Most of my Bettas have lived with
other fish.
They're community fish and many become depressed without tank mates.
Many fish are very aware of their keepers, and many haven't a clue. Do
some research on Bettas and you'll soon understand there's much more to
these fish than you are aware of.
Many of my Bettas were kept in community tanks, and far more interested
in the other denizens of the deep than in what went on outside their
glass confinement.
Or possibly that since you never understood that they will become
attached to their human keepers, he latched onto the other fish in the
tank because he knew you wouldn't be giving him the attention he needed
and wanted. I have several female Bettas and a male in my 75g. It also
houses a variety of other community fish. There is no boredom in that
tank for any fish in there. As soon as I come to the tank...my Bettas
are all in my face begging for attention.
The live bearers are clueless to what's going on outside of their tank.
The Gouramis are aware of my presence, but are still cautious (Pearl
Gouramis and they are still learning to trust I am not going to hurt
them). I've had them in this tank, and out of quarantine for a couple
weeks now and they are just now coming to the front when I am there.
Any Angelfish person will also tell you that these fish are completely
aware of what's going outside of their tank, and who their keepers are.
You can argue and question these facts till doomsday, but try and
understand that these fish are thinking fish. They DO know who you are.
Maybe you just didn't know that so you never noticed their attemps of
trying to get your attention, and all that they do to get it.
-------------------------------------------------
Answer me this,...Why would a great big work horse [18 hands] go off his
feed and damn near starve to death, when an idiot goat he was known to
spend time with, went and got himself shot by some dang peckerhead,
a-shootin' at what ever moved in his field of vision?,...Or why would it
concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had got
into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
The time of automatically thinking that a creature is dumb, at least
by our own human standards of thought, inter-actions, communication, and
comprehension are long over, or at very least it should be. Heck, folks
are now-a-days havin' two-way conversations with African greys[parrots],
as well as with porpoises, et cetera. And there are all sorts of
interactions that are very beneficial to humans, like dogs trained to
warn their humans, of impending heart attacks or diabetic comas and
other serious life-threatening medical problems that the dog can sense
by smells given off by the human, but only detected by dogs and certain
other creatures.~Dean.

[Dan White]

"Papa Red" > wrote in message
...

Or why would it
concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had got
into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?

I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage, she told
Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.

dwhite

[RedForeman ©®]

|| "Papa Red" > wrote in message
||
|| Or why would it
|| concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
|| Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had
|| got
|| into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
|| another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
||
|| I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage,
|| she told Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.
||
|| dwhite

I have, for years, if not forever, thought that animals are very close to
humans... animals in the sense, ALL animals that have been somewhat
domesticated over time. Even the fishies we care for, become somewhat
attached as we do... those who don't see that, are missing out on some of
the fundamentals of the life experience...

I have a farm at my house... when we lost one of our favorite cats, Mario,
who'd been rescued in the road after his mother had been hit, he was hit
also, gray matter exposed... He grew up to be a very 'normal' cat... but
bonded especially with me... My own cat, a mix breed female who'd become
buds with him also, came to see him resting at our feet after he passed...
she rubbed her head on his head, and patted him with one of her feet... not
the playful pat you see so often, but the type of pat you'd see a friend do
when saying goodbye to another friend... of course, our golden retriever
laid down, right beside Mario, our siamese, who never really cared much for
the 'other' cats, came to rest back to back with him, rolled over and
started to lick his neck... then realizing he wasn't responding... sat up,
howled... and spent 2 days literally sitting in Mario's window and
howling...

When my first golden died, we had a maltese who was a baby for the last
little bit, noticed that we'd taken his bowl and she began to bark, bark
bark bark.... we came around the counter to find her, spinning in circles
and barking uncontrollably... my mother picked her up and this didn't stop
her... she barked for no less than 20 minutes until finally we picked her up
and sat down with her... she started panting and became very erratic...
finally, when we went to sleep, she was found sleeping in his spot, he had a
dog bed in one corner of the living room... she wouldn't go to bed where she
normally slept, instead she chose to stay there and did so for several
weeks...

Honestly, it's a fine line between how much cognitive recognition animals
have, but in my mind, it's way more than some realize... I'm just glad I've
shared the feelings with them and they've shared feelings with me...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[McEve]

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message
...

> *****ing Myself at this thread*
> That was most ammusing, thanks folks :)
> The most educational fact out of that thread was I now know that a female
> Rabbit is called a Doe, fancy that!!!
> --

what I learned from this is that Betta owners seem to be to fish keepers
answer to MAC owners in the computer community :-D

[sophie]

In message >, McEve >
writes
>
>"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message
...
>
>> *****ing Myself at this thread*
>> That was most ammusing, thanks folks :)
>> The most educational fact out of that thread was I now know that a female
>> Rabbit is called a Doe, fancy that!!!
>> --
>
>what I learned from this is that Betta owners seem to be to fish keepers
>answer to MAC owners in the computer community :-D

rich and hugely envied creative types??
<fe>
--
sophie

[McEve]

"sophie" > wrote in message
> rich and hugely envied creative types??
> <fe>

<fe>? what does that mean? :)

[sophie]

In message >, McEve >
writes
>
>"sophie" > wrote in message
>> rich and hugely envied creative types??
>> <fe>
>
><fe>? what does that mean? :)

"iron"y. It's a chemistry joke.

I should probably take this opportunity to apologise, shouldn't I?
--
sophie

[McEve]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, McEve >
> writes
>>
>>"sophie" > wrote in message
>>> rich and hugely envied creative types??
>>> <fe>
>>
>><fe>? what does that mean? :)
>
> "iron"y. It's a chemistry joke.
>
> I should probably take this opportunity to apologise, shouldn't I?

Not at all! I half expected having to do that myself *g*

In order not to sound uneducated, in hindsight I should have gotten it :)

[Dan White]

"McEve" > wrote in message
...
>
> > --
>
> what I learned from this is that Betta owners seem to be to fish keepers
> answer to MAC owners in the computer community :-D
>

....and that apparently you have hot, dangerous friends?

dwhite

[Dan White]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have, for years, if not forever, thought that animals are very close to
> humans... animals in the sense, ALL animals that have been somewhat
> domesticated over time. Even the fishies we care for, become somewhat
> attached as we do... those who don't see that, are missing out on some of
> the fundamentals of the life experience...
>
Nice post. I think one of the most interesting books I have read is called
"The Man who Listens to Horses." It is the true story of Monty Roberts and
how he revolutionized horse training. It is not to be confused with the
book and movie The Horse Whisperer, which is fictional. If you are
interested in communication between species, this book is fascinating. I
literally couldn't put it down!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/034542705X/qid=1095210332/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1932821-4879240?v=glance&s=books

No, I'm not the publisher!
dwhite

[TYNK 7]

(Snipped)

>Subject: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish]. {TYNK & y'all>}
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 2:03 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>Answer me this,...Why would a great big work horse [18 hands] go off his
>feed and damn near starve to death, when an idiot goat he was known to
>spend time with, went and got himself shot by some dang peckerhead,

>a-shootin' at what ever moved in his field of vision?,...Or why would it
>concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
>Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had got
>into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about

>with
>another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
> The time of automatically thinking that a creature is dumb, at least
>by our own human standards of thought, inter-actions, communication, and
>comprehension are long over, or at very least it should be. Heck, folks

>are now-a-days havin' two-way conversations with African greys[parrots],
>as well as with porpoises, et cetera. And there are all sorts of
>interactions that are very beneficial to humans, like dogs trained to
>warn their humans, of impending heart attacks or diabetic comas

>and
>other serious life-threatening medical problems that the dog can sense
>by smells given off by the human, but only detected by dogs and certain
>other creatures.~Dean

Right On, Dean!

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish] & a hospital stay.
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 10:54 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
> I will be having a medical procedure in a couple of weeks that will
>require me to stay in hospital for at least four days.
> I currently have a 10 and two 20 gallon tanks. In the 10 gallon is
>one Betta all by himself. In one of the 20 gallon tanks are: two Mystus
>armatus [orange-silverish catfish]; three Plecostomus catfish; one
>Betta; and three Corydoras virginae. In the second 20 gallon tank, I
>have: one Betta; two Plecos; and eight various types of Corys.
> My question being, what should I do prior to going into hospital? I
>know that there is a type of solid food source one can purchase and
>place into their tanks, but is it something that the Bettas will eat?
>What about the others that I have noted, do you know if they will all
>eat from the same sort of solid food source?
> I have one, and am planning to purchase two more battery-powered air
>pumps to run in concert with the regular plug-in types, just in case the
>power were to go out while I am away. I have already tested the one
>that I currently have that runs on two "D" type batteries. I had to
>leave during the time Hurricane Frances came a visiting, and they lasted
>from 10:49am, on September 2nd, and was still running on September 7th,
>at around noon [I had much fewer fish in only one tank then]. Can any
>of you folks suggest anything else that I can do to ensure their health
>and happiness, while I am away for four days, coping with the results
>from the follies of me ill-spent youth? I would truly appreciate any
>and all help that y'all might provide. Pax Vobiscum,...~Dean.
>

Hey Dean.
Good luck with the procedure in a couple weeks. = )
Now for the fish...
Give them a good feed the day before leaving and a water change.
That's all.
They'll be peachy for 4 days without food.
What ever you do, do NOT, I can't stress that enough, do not use one of the
"weekend feeders" or "vacation feeders". They are nasty nasty, and will pollute
your tank, mess thewater chemsitry up and you may end up coming home to dead
fish. = (
Most are made of plaster with food bits in it. Not a good thing.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish]. {TYNK & y'all>}
>From: "RedForeman ©®"
>Date: 9/14/2004 3:13 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>|| "Papa Red" > wrote in message
>||
>|| Or why would it
>|| concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
>|| Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had
>|| got
>|| into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
>|| another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
>||
>|| I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage,
>|| she told Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.
>||
>|| dwhite
>
>I have, for years, if not forever, thought that animals are very close to
>humans... animals in the sense, ALL animals that have been somewhat
>domesticated over time. Even the fishies we care for, become somewhat
>attached as we do... those who don't see that, are missing out on some of
>the fundamentals of the life experience...
>
>I have a farm at my house... when we lost one of our favorite cats, Mario,
>who'd been rescued in the road after his mother had been hit, he was hit
>also, gray matter exposed... He grew up to be a very 'normal' cat... but
>bonded especially with me... My own cat, a mix breed female who'd become
>buds with him also, came to see him resting at our feet after he passed...
>she rubbed her head on his head, and patted him with one of her feet... not
>the playful pat you see so often, but the type of pat you'd see a friend do
>when saying goodbye to another friend... of course, our golden retriever
>laid down, right beside Mario, our siamese, who never really cared much for
>the 'other' cats, came to rest back to back with him, rolled over and
>started to lick his neck... then realizing he wasn't responding... sat up,
>howled... and spent 2 days literally sitting in Mario's window and
>howling...
>
>When my first golden died, we had a maltese who was a baby for the last
>little bit, noticed that we'd taken his bowl and she began to bark, bark
>bark bark.... we came around the counter to find her, spinning in circles
>and barking uncontrollably... my mother picked her up and this didn't stop
>her... she barked for no less than 20 minutes until finally we picked her up
>and sat down with her... she started panting and became very erratic...
>finally, when we went to sleep, she was found sleeping in his spot, he had a
>dog bed in one corner of the living room... she wouldn't go to bed where she
>normally slept, instead she chose to stay there and did so for several
>weeks...
>
>Honestly, it's a fine line between how much cognitive recognition animals
>have, but in my mind, it's way more than some realize... I'm just glad I've
>shared the feelings with them and they've shared feelings with me..

::wiping my tears::
That was so sweet and sad.
I too have seen this behavior in animals. Both domesticated and wild.
In my home and at others.
Recently, well, a few yrs now, we lost our first family pet. Our Cat Ziggy. A
male domestic short hair, and black as night, huge and totally my guy.
When he died, my other cat (blue point Siamese and as wacky as they come),
started howling at night. She sleeps where he used to (next to me on my bed,
beingheld like a Teddy Bear..something she HATED and wouldn't let me do...ever,
until he died).
When we lost our first family dog (Rott), that Siamese cat and her were the
best of buds. That poor cat was so darn depressed it broke my heart.
She mourned for many months for that dog.
When we got our 2nd Rott I thought she's take to her right away. Not the case
at all. It was if she resented her. She did NOT like that pup anywhere near her
or where Cody used to sleep.
To keep this a *little* fish related, I had the red white and blue male
Crowntail who had a favorite flare buddy. If I moved him for his tank cleaning
without moving him too, he acted all dpressed and gloomy. Droopy fins, hanging
at the bottom, wouldn't react to me, etc.
When his flare bud died before him, he acted that way for a long time. He did
not care for any other male to be his flare buddy either. He never did perk up.
Anyone who thinks animals don't have feelings is simply blind.
They do care and sometimes it's for a human.

[TYNK 7]

>ubject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish]. {TYNK & y'all>}
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/14/2004 8:08 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I have, for years, if not forever, thought that animals are very close to
>> humans... animals in the sense, ALL animals that have been somewhat
>> domesticated over time. Even the fishies we care for, become somewhat
>> attached as we do... those who don't see that, are missing out on some of
>> the fundamentals of the life experience...
>>
>Nice post. I think one of the most interesting books I have read is called
>"The Man who Listens to Horses." It is the true story of Monty Roberts and
>how he revolutionized horse training. It is not to be confused with the
>book and movie The Horse Whisperer, which is fictional. If you are
>interested in communication between species, this book is fascinating. I
>literally couldn't put it down!

OH I love Monty!
I am SO big on animal behavior and body language.
Even as a small child I could "listen" to the dog...the cat and the horses Iwas
around just by their body language.
Fish "speak" loudy too. = )
You just have to sit back and watch them. It doesn't take too long before you
can "hear" what their bodies are saying.

[McEve]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "McEve" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> > --
>>
>> what I learned from this is that Betta owners seem to be to fish keepers
>> answer to MAC owners in the computer community :-D
>>
>
> ...and that apparently you have hot, dangerous friends?
>
> dwhite
>
>

And you want me to apologize for that? :P

Paintball is not dangerous :) *And* who my friends are were not learned in
this thread.

[Peggy]

Koko is such an amazing being! She can sign over 1,000 words (and
understand much more than that in spoken english), can paint, has a
sense of humor, feels deeply for other creatures (including her
kittens), has a sense of 'self' and more than anything, wants her own
baby. I guess gorillas have a biological clock too. All in all, I'd say
she's more 'human' than most creatures that pass for human on this
planet. www.koko.org is her website and you can see her in action.

Peggy

Dan White wrote:
> "Papa Red" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Or why would it
> concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
> Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had got
> into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
> another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
>
> I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage, she told
> Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.
>
> dwhite
>
>

[Mary H Healey]

Dan White wrote:
> Nice post. I think one of the most interesting books I have read is called
> "The Man who Listens to Horses." It is the true story of Monty Roberts

"true" and "Monty Roberts" don't belong in the same sentence.

>and how he revolutionized horse training.

A veritable legend in his own mind.

>...If you are
> interested in communication between species, this book is fascinating.

Mr. Roberts is an expert spinner of tall tales, but for learning about
communicating with horses you might do better to select books by Mark
Rashid, or either of the Dorrances (Tom or Bill). Harder to find are
Racinet's works, but worth the effort.

Watching some of the better-known "horse whisperers" and dog trainers
can be educational, as long as you turn the sound off. Watch the
animal, watch the human. Very often, the commentary and the visuals are
saying conflicting things, and I always believe the animal.

For dogs, I recommend Turid Rugaas' "Calming Signals", and Myrna
Milani's "The Language and Emotion of Dogs".

All except the Racinet books are available on Amazon. NFI and all that.

[IDzine01]

Just to add to what TYNK said, yes feed them before you go into the
hospital, but don't OVERfeed them. Often the thought process is; if
you're going away feed him twice as much before you go so he won't be
hungry. For bettas, this could actually do more harm then good. Just
give them a normal feeding before you go away.

Good luck with your procedure.

(TYNK 7) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish] & a hospital stay.
> >From: (Papa Red)
> >Date: 9/14/2004 10:54 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> > I will be having a medical procedure in a couple of weeks that will
> >require me to stay in hospital for at least four days.
> > I currently have a 10 and two 20 gallon tanks. In the 10 gallon is
> >one Betta all by himself. In one of the 20 gallon tanks are: two Mystus
> >armatus [orange-silverish catfish]; three Plecostomus catfish; one
> >Betta; and three Corydoras virginae. In the second 20 gallon tank, I
> >have: one Betta; two Plecos; and eight various types of Corys.
> > My question being, what should I do prior to going into hospital? I
> >know that there is a type of solid food source one can purchase and
> >place into their tanks, but is it something that the Bettas will eat?
> >What about the others that I have noted, do you know if they will all
> >eat from the same sort of solid food source?
> > I have one, and am planning to purchase two more battery-powered air
> >pumps to run in concert with the regular plug-in types, just in case the
> >power were to go out while I am away. I have already tested the one
> >that I currently have that runs on two "D" type batteries. I had to
> >leave during the time Hurricane Frances came a visiting, and they lasted
> >from 10:49am, on September 2nd, and was still running on September 7th,
> >at around noon [I had much fewer fish in only one tank then]. Can any
> >of you folks suggest anything else that I can do to ensure their health
> >and happiness, while I am away for four days, coping with the results
> >from the follies of me ill-spent youth? I would truly appreciate any
> >and all help that y'all might provide. Pax Vobiscum,...~Dean.
> >
>
> Hey Dean.
> Good luck with the procedure in a couple weeks. = )
> Now for the fish...
> Give them a good feed the day before leaving and a water change.
> That's all.
> They'll be peachy for 4 days without food.
> What ever you do, do NOT, I can't stress that enough, do not use one of the
> "weekend feeders" or "vacation feeders". They are nasty nasty, and will pollute
> your tank, mess thewater chemsitry up and you may end up coming home to dead
> fish. = (
> Most are made of plaster with food bits in it. Not a good thing.

[RedForeman ©®]

|| "McEve" > wrote in message
|| ...and that apparently you have hot, dangerous friends?
||
|| dwhite

That's hilarious... ROTFPMP!!!!

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[IDzine01]

I always found this conversation interesting, partly because opinions
vary greatly between betta enthusiasts of all kinds. What the heck,
I'll add my 2¢. I have no doubt that bettas can recognize activity
outside their tanks. I also think they may be able to distinguish the
difference between their keepers and others, though I don't yet have
proof. An interesting experiment I think. What I seriously doubt is
that their recognition translates into emotion. There is no evidence
that shows they become saddened when we're away or that there is even
such thing as depression among fish. I suspect if we asked a scientist
that is familiar with fish brains, (if there is one) they would tell
us that fish lack the portion of the brain that contains complex
emotions. I know they are capable of experiencing fear and anger
(territorialism) and possibly excitement over food, but these are
hardwired and instinctual. (A different part of the brain)


Mary H Healey > wrote in message >...
> TYNK 7 wrote:
> > ::mouth agape as I read that::
> > Wow. You couldn't be more wrong about Bettas. They are quite aware of their
> > keepers and can even become quite depressed..even to the point of not eating
> > and becoming sluggish when they leave for an extended period of time (vacation,
> > hospital stay, ect).
>
> Y'know, vacations and hospital stays have never been big on my agenda.
> So I suppose my fish have never been deprived of my magnificence for
> long enough to notice.
>
> I guess my question is, what's missing in a Betta's environment that
> would make it so reactive to an artificial stimulus (like seeing a
> human)? That's not a terribly sentimental view, I know, but sometimes
> the sap in me loses out to the pragmatic.
>
> Perhaps a Betta has formed some kind of emotional attachment to you, but
> *why*? Inter-species attachments aren't really a strong survival point
> for most critters, so what would prompt a Betta to conceive a tendre for
> something a thousand times or more its size? It's not practical. It
> might enhance survival in this specific instance, but it doesn't really
> advance the survival of the species.
>
> > Bettas act quite differently when they see a stranger, but when they see their
> > keeper, they become very active, some do the side to side wiggle dance, others
> > flare for their owners....but EVERY single Betta tries hard to get their owners
> > attention when they see them. Food is NOT the only reason they do this either,
> > so don't even bother with that reason to excuse the behavior away.
>
> How about territorial aggression, then? Boredom?
>
> > Many fish are very aware of their keepers, and many haven't a clue.
> > Do some research on Bettas and you'll soon understand there's much more to
> > these fish than you are aware of.
>
> Many of my Bettas were kept in community tanks, and far more interested
> in the other denizens of the deep than in what went on outside their
> glass confinement. As much as possible, given the constraints of tank
> size and individual temperament, I tried to keep my Bettas with other
> fish or in close visual proximity to other Bettas.

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish] & a hospital
>stay.
>From: (IDzine01)
>Date: 9/15/2004 9:23 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>Just to add to what TYNK said, yes feed them before you go into the
>hospital, but don't OVERfeed them. Often the thought process is; if
>you're going away feed him twice as much before you go so he won't be
>hungry. For bettas, this could actually do more harm then good.

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I didn't mention that.
Thank you thank you thank you for adding that!!! = )~

[TYNK 7]

(snipped for length)
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].
>From: (IDzine01)
>Date: 9/15/2004 10:39 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>
>I always found this conversation interesting, partly because opinions
>vary greatly between betta enthusiasts of all kinds. What the heck,
>I'll add my 2¢. I have no doubt that bettas can recognize activity
>outside their tanks. I also think they may be able to distinguish the
>difference between their keepers and others, though I don't yet have
>proof. An interesting experiment I think. What I seriously doubt is
>that their recognition translates into emotion. There is no evidence
>that shows they become saddened when we're away or that there is even
>such thing as depression among fish. I suspect if we asked a scientist
>that is familiar with fish brains, (if there is one) they would tell
>us that fish lack the portion of the brain that contains complex
>emotions. I know they are capable of experiencing fear and anger
>(territorialism) and possibly excitement over food, but these are
>hardwired and instinctual. (A different part of the brain)

I'm not going to say I've seen "depression" with all my Bettas, as I haven't.
However, I have had more than a few become listless, some will quit eating,
droop their fins, etc. if their favorite flare buddy is gone for a period of
time.
In my human mind, that looks like depression to me.
Maybe I tend to notice these little signs because I'm very big on reading
animal body language.

[Papa Red]

Let's make it unanimous,...For me, eating beets would ALMOST BE as bad
as kissing Geo. W[as in worthless!]. Bush, on the lips.

[Jim85CJ]

Wow, a webtv user with such an intelligent post... go figure

Papa Red wrote:

> Let's make it unanimous,...For me, eating beets would ALMOST BE as bad
> as kissing Geo. W[as in worthless!]. Bush, on the lips.
>

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].Mary H.
Healey
From: (Papa Red)
Date: 9/14/2004 6:49 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
Both her and I have the time that it takes to take care of these fish.
She especially, for right now she spends far too much time basically
thinking that everything is in the past tense, if you know what I mean.
These fish will give her an anchor in the here and now, which, as stated
in articles published in the Journal of the American Medical
Association, and in the Lancet, the british medical journal, and others,
have well documented.
=A0=A0=A0=A0If I had a car, I think that I would be motivated to go
around to the different 'assisted-living facilities' and try and sell
them on the idea of having the elderly persons living there keep Bettas.
I am quite sure that it could only make their quality of life much
better, for both the fish and the person.
You're on the right track with that idea, for sure! I have an Auntie
that fried her brain on the drug "Crack". She must live in Nursing care
center. KNowing how lonely she is all the time, even though there are
many there just like her, and knowing how much of a fish freak she has
laways been (actually she was the person who turned me onto Bettas when
I was a small child), I brought her a Betta. I can't even begine to tell
you what that little dude has done for her.
More and more of the folks there want one of their own now.
------------------------------------------------
TYNK, just what would I need to have, to not only have Bettas, but
successfully breed Bettas? Just how difficult is it?
I am thinking that if I could breed and raise Bettas, to where I have
several successful breeding pairs, I might just be able to see if I
could find and re-connect with people whom I used to know in the local
tv news business, who in turn possibly could get people to donate
aquariums, and any supplies, equipment needed, all of which would be
given to certain 'special needs' old folks/ youngsters who would
otherwise not be able to afford a companion pet?
What do you honestly think,...is it do-able, or would it be too
expensive? I'm just knockin' around some ideas, and typing them
down,... I mean, I do have the perfect climate, so I'm part way
there,...What do you think?

[Papa Red]

For all of your expertise, you've never drained a container of
free-flowing liquid, utilizing the clear rubber tubing that they sell in
pet shops that cater to the aquarium trade, tubing going from the
container you are draining, down said tubing, utilizing both gravity and
suction, down to a lower level, as in a bucket sitting on the floor? And
if and when this lower container becomes close to being full, one can
pinch-off the tubing using a clip, empty the bucket, and return,
starting the downward flow once again, repeating this all again, if
needed.~Dean.

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].Mary H.
Healey
From: (Papa Red)
Date: 9/14/2004 6:19 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
As far=A0as keeping the temperature of the container's water warm, her
and I both live here on the very southern end of Miami Beach, Florida
[U.S.], in an area called, "South Beach", so most of the time that is
not a problem.
.................................................. ......
Don't the nights get pretty chilly?
Fluctuating temps was my concern.
By using a heater, when the room temp drops, the heater would turn on at
keep the fish's tank a constant, steady temp. That is the more important
issue.
--------------------------------------------------
Only occationally during wintertime here on South Beach, part of
Miami Beach, Florida, does it get cold. And as of late, meaning, in the
last few years, we have had warm winters, some so warm, one would
question that it was truly winter.
You folks have to understand that I have lived both here in the
greater Miami [Fla.] area, having been born here, and in Thailand. And
you have my word, that the climates of both locals are almost one and
the same, but with one exception,...That exception being, is that in
Thailand they have, "Sy-phon", the rainy season, where you look off to a
distance and see this great mass of purples, blues, and blacks, a wall
that extends from the ground ever upwards, up to the ceiling of the sky,
and across the great distance, as such, that if you were to try and
follow it, you would follow it up and overhead, and beyond to the other,
opposite horizon, with that mass, that great wall of blues, purples and
blacks, coming ever closer towards you, gobbling up everything it
passes, rice patties, trees, buildings, hills and whole mountains,
giving one the feeling that they are being approached by this humongous
tri-coloured monster, to the point that I have seen persons of good and
brave character, damn near break and run. And then the rain falls, with
each drop, like the monster, humongous, and bringing about redness,
sometimes swelling, and even sunburned-like pain, where it comes in
contact with bare skin,...That we don't have here. But we do have my
ex-wife, who is still behind the wheel of a motor vehicle, which is why
for so long, I refused to drive, or even walk near a main highway<LOL>
[At least this is better than talking about BEETS{Yuck!!!].~Dean.

[Eric Schreiber]

Papa Red wrote:

> For all of your expertise, you've never drained a container of
> free-flowing liquid, utilizing the clear rubber tubing

Folks may be more inclined to answer your questions if you aren't
abrasive towards them when they do.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Papa Red]

Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].TYNK7
From: (Papa Red)
Date: 9/14/2004 7:00 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
(snipped)
there's
no way that she'd ride on the back of my Yamaha Zuma 2 motor scooter,
..............................................
LOL...have ya asked her?
---------------------------------------------
Trust me,...she calls it a "murder-cycle". And besides, I'm such a
'mother hen', when it comes to folks like her, that I'd end up just
being a nervous wreck, and most likely have one. ~Dean.

[Papa Red]

|| "Papa Red" > wrote in message
||
|| Or why would it
|| concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
|| Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had ||
got
|| into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with ||
another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
||
|| I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage,
|| she told Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.
||
|| dwhite
I have, for years, if not forever, thought that animals are very close
to humans... animals in the sense, ALL animals that have been somewhat
domesticated over time. Even the fishies we care for, become somewhat
attached as we do... those who don't see that, are missing out on some
of the fundamentals of the life experience...
I have a farm at my house... when we lost one of our favorite cats,
Mario, who'd been rescued in the road after his mother had been hit, he
was hit also, gray matter exposed... He grew up to be a very 'normal'
cat... but bonded especially with me... My own cat, a mix breed female
who'd become buds with him also, came to see him resting at our feet
after he passed... she rubbed her head on his head, and patted him with
one of her feet... not the playful pat you see so often, but the type of
pat you'd see a friend do when saying goodbye to another friend... of
course, our golden retriever laid down, right beside Mario, our siamese,
who never really cared much for the 'other' cats, came to rest back to
back with him, rolled over and started to lick his neck... then
realizing he wasn't responding... sat up, howled... and spent 2 days
literally sitting in Mario's window and howling...
When my first golden died, we had a maltese who was a baby for the last
little bit, noticed that we'd taken his bowl and she began to bark, bark
bark bark.... we came around the counter to find her, spinning in
circles and barking uncontrollably... my mother picked her up and this
didn't stop her... she barked for no less than 20 minutes until finally
we picked her up and sat down with her... she started panting and became
very erratic... finally, when we went to sleep, she was found sleeping
in his spot, he had a dog bed in one corner of the living room... she
wouldn't go to bed where she normally slept, instead she chose to stay
there and did so for several weeks...
Honestly, it's a fine line between how much cognitive recognition
animals have, but in my mind, it's way more than some realize... I'm
just glad I've shared the feelings with them and they've shared feelings
with me...
--
| RedForeman =A9=AE fabricator and creator of the ratbike
streetfighter!!!
|=A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
|=A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
|=A0=F8=A4=B0`=B0=A4=F8,=B8=B8=B8,=F8=A4=B0`=B0=A4 =F8,=B8=B8=B8,=F8=A4=B0`=
=B0=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=B0`=B0=A4=F8,=B8
|=A0><((((=BA>`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8.=A 0><((((=BA=
>=A0=B7=B4=AF`
| for any questions you may have.... | Gmail -
the ultimate in disappointment...
-----------------------------------------------
Have you ever viewed the re-actions to, actions with, and interactions
of elephants, when a group of wild African elephants come upon the
skeletal remains of other elephants? What I find most interesting, is
that after all of the different elephants of the group have handled and
mulled over the bones, they take those bones and spread them all around
the area, as if to secret them away.~Dean.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].TYNK 7
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/15/2004 9:00 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Subject: Re: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish].Mary H.
>Healey
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:49 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>Both her and I have the time that it takes to take care of these fish.
>She especially, for right now she spends far too much time basically
>thinking that everything is in the past tense, if you know what I mean.
>These fish will give her an anchor in the here and now, which, as stated
>in articles published in the Journal of the American Medical
>Association, and in the Lancet, the british medical journal, and others,
>have well documented.
>=A0=A0=A0=A0If I had a car, I think that I would be motivated to go
>around to the different 'assisted-living facilities' and try and sell
>them on the idea of having the elderly persons living there keep Bettas.
>I am quite sure that it could only make their quality of life much
>better, for both the fish and the person.
>You're on the right track with that idea, for sure! I have an Auntie
>that fried her brain on the drug "Crack". She must live in Nursing care
>center. KNowing how lonely she is all the time, even though there are
>many there just like her, and knowing how much of a fish freak she has
>laways been (actually she was the person who turned me onto Bettas when
>I was a small child), I brought her a Betta. I can't even begine to tell
>you what that little dude has done for her.
>More and more of the folks there want one of their own now.
>------------------------------------------------
>TYNK, just what would I need to have, to not only have Bettas, but
>successfully breed Bettas? Just how difficult is it?
> I am thinking that if I could breed and raise Bettas, to where I have
>several successful breeding pairs, I might just be able to see if I
>could find and re-connect with people whom I used to know in the local
>tv news business, who in turn possibly could get people to donate
>aquariums, and any supplies, equipment needed, all of which would be
>given to certain 'special needs' old folks/ youngsters who would
>otherwise not be able to afford a companion pet?
>What do you honestly think,...is it do-able, or would it be too
>expensive? I'm just knockin' around some ideas, and typing them
>down,... I mean, I do have the perfect climate, so I'm part way
>there,...What do you think?

It's not that expensive to breed Bettas.
There would of course be the intitial cost of buying the supplies, tanks, jars
(for growing males), start up micro worm cultures for first foods, etc.
Once that is all out of the way, it's not expensive at all. It's just time
consuming and everything must be done properly during their growing process or
they can be easily killed (the fry).
Bettas lay so many darned eggs that if you had several males tending eggs, and
several growing tanks going, and many, many (min) quart jars...I prefer as
large as you can get for growing males...half gallon to a gallon canning jars
(Mason Jars) are really great and can be purchased pretty cheaply from like a
Wal-Mart or similar store, you could have yourself quite a nice little Betta
shop going.
You can buy the largest pump available and run several tank's sponge filters
from it.
Heaters...well you said you had that covered. However, you would still need
them in the growing tanks for young that are under 3 months old...because when
their Labyrinth organs start to develope, the surface air must be constantly
warm and humid at all times. One little chilly breeze across the surface while
a young one is coming up for a breath could kill it.
This is (IMO) the most critical time in a little Betta fry's life (besides the
correct foods).
So I think it's very possible.
You'd need the time to put into these fish too. Several feedings daily, keeping
fry tanks clean is an absolute must, checking on the temps several times daily,
cleaning jarred males daily to every other day, etc.
After your initial start up costs, the only money going out would be for
food...cannot skimp on adults when conditioning them...Micro worms for newly
hatched fry is a must (there are other foods small enough for them to eat too,
such as Vinagar eels, infusoria, etc). If you want large numbers of fry from
spawn to survive you cannot start them out on newly hatched Brine Shrimp. It's
simply too large for them to eat. Only the largest of the fry would be able to
and only they would survive.
A bottle of somthing like Melafix here and there to help heal courtship nips
and bites.
Meth Blue so non viable eggs do not fungus over and ruin viable eggs.
Little things like that.
However, if you charged a few bucks or even say $2 a fish, or even less, it
would cover much of your out of pocket costs.
I breed for the love of the species, and to pass down a lovely trait, etc. So
large spawns aren't what I'm looking for.
I like smaller spawns better, especially after I lost my fish room to my
daughter, lol. (She was such a wonder surprise for hubby and I almost 9 yrs
ago), so the baby got the fish room. When our oldest son moves away from home
hubby and I are gonna brawl over his room. LOL
He wants an office and I want my fish room back!
::pause for fishy day dreams:: = )~
OK, better now.
Feel free to email me directly anytime.

[Papa Red]

Subject: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish] & a hospital
stay.
From: (Papa Red)
Date: 9/14/2004 10:54 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
=A0=A0=A0=A0I will be having a medical procedure in a couple of weeks
that will require me to stay in hospital for at least four days.
=A0=A0=A0=A0I currently have a 10 and two 20 gallon tanks. In the 10
gallon is one Betta all by himself. In one of the 20 gallon tanks are:
two Mystus armatus [orange-silverish catfish]; three Plecostomus
catfish; one Betta; and three Corydoras virginae. In the second 20
gallon tank, I have: one Betta; two Plecos; and eight various types of
Corys.
=A0=A0=A0=A0My question being, what should I do prior to going into
hospital? I know that there is a type of solid food source one can
purchase and place into their tanks, but is it something that the Bettas
will eat? What about the others that I have noted, do you know if they
will all eat from the same sort of solid food source?
=A0=A0=A0=A0I have one, and am planning to purchase two more
battery-powered air pumps to run in concert with the regular plug-in
types, just in case the power were to go out while I am away. I have
already tested the one that I currently have that runs on two "D" type
batteries. =A0 I had to leave during the time Hurricane Frances came a
visiting, and they lasted from 10:49am, on September 2nd, and was still
running on September 7th, at around noon [I had much fewer fish in only
one tank then]. Can any of you folks suggest anything else that I can do
to ensure their health and happiness, while I am away for four days,
coping with the results from the follies of me ill-spent youth? I would
truly appreciate any and all help that y'all might provide. Pax
Vobiscum,...~Dean.
.................................................. ......
Hey Dean.
Good luck with the procedure in a couple weeks. =3D ) Now for the fish... =

Give them a good feed the day before leaving and a water change. That's
all.
They'll be peachy for 4 days without food. What ever you do, do NOT, I
can't stress that enough, do not use one of the "weekend feeders" or
"vacation feeders". They are nasty nasty, and will pollute your tank,
mess the water chemistry up and you may end up coming home to dead fish.
=3D (
Most are made of plaster with food bits in it. Not a good thing.
----------------------------------------------------
I guess that I should of read this post before I went off to the pet
shop and spent all that money,...Bought four of them damn buggers.<LOL>
Maybe I can sell them to the tourists, tell 'em that they're petrified
sea shells.~Dean.

[Dan White]

"Papa Red" > wrote in message
...
That exception being, is that in
> Thailand they have, "Sy-phon", the rainy season, where you look off to a
> distance and see this great mass of purples, blues, and blacks, a wall
> that extends from the ground ever upwards, up to the ceiling of the sky,
> and across the great distance, as such, that if you were to try and
> follow it, you would follow it up and overhead, and beyond to the other,
> opposite horizon, with that mass, that great wall of blues, purples and
> blacks, coming ever closer towards you, gobbling up everything it
> passes, rice patties, trees, buildings, hills and whole mountains,
> giving one the feeling that they are being approached by this humongous
> tri-coloured monster, to the point that I have seen persons of good and
> brave character, damn near break and run. And then the rain falls, with
> each drop, like the monster, humongous, and bringing about redness,
> sometimes swelling, and even sunburned-like pain, where it comes in
> contact with bare skin,...

Spoken like someone who has really experienced it first hand!

dwhite

[Papa Red]

Koko is such an amazing being! She can sign over 1,000 words (and
understand much more than that in spoken english), can paint, has a
sense of humor, feels deeply for other creatures (including her
kittens), has a sense of 'self' and more than anything, wants her own
baby. I guess gorillas have a biological clock too. All in all, I'd say
she's more 'human' than most creatures that pass for human on this
planet. www.koko.org is her website and you can see her in action.
Peggy
Dan White wrote:
"Papa Red" > wrote in message
...
Or why would it
concern Koko, a gorilla taught to communicate via ASL [American Sign
Language], that two of his human friends [a husband/wife team] had got
into a very loud verbal row, enough for Koko to gossip about with
another gorillas, who Koko and the humans were teaching ASL?
I also remember how when the wife lost a baby due to a miscarriage, she
told Koko and Koko signed that she was sad.
dwhite
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much Peggy for posting that really neat link to Koko's
website. She is very special to me. I just wish that I could 'talk' to
her, but my ASL [American Sign Language] isn't of the quality to do
so,...I know a few things, but not enough, but for emergency situations.
By the way, I have a ASL website that quite literally shows you how to
sign what ever words that you type into the 'thingie'. If anybody
wants, I can post the site.~Dean.

[Papa Red]

Just to add to what TYNK said, yes feed them before you go into the
hospital, but don't OVERfeed them. Often the thought process is; if
you're going away feed him twice as much before you go so he won't be
hungry. For bettas, this could actually do more harm then good. Just
give them a normal feeding before you go away.
Good luck with your procedure.
(TYNK 7) wrote in message
>...
Subject: A Question About Bettas [Siamese Fighting fish] & a hospital
stay.
From: (Papa Red)
Date: 9/14/2004 10:54 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >
=A0=A0=A0=A0I will be having a medical procedure in a couple of weeks
that will require me to stay in hospital for at least four days.
=A0=A0=A0=A0I currently have a 10 and two 20 gallon tanks. In the 10
gallon is one Betta all by himself. In one of the 20 gallon tanks are:
two Mystus armatus [orange-silverish catfish]; three Plecostomus
catfish; one Betta; and three Corydoras virginae. In the second 20
gallon tank, I have: one Betta; two Plecos; and eight various types of
Corys.
=A0=A0=A0=A0My question being, what should I do prior to going into
hospital? I know that there is a type of solid food source one can
purchase and place into their tanks, but is it something that the Bettas
will eat? What about the others that I have noted, do you know if they
will all eat from the same sort of solid food source?
=A0=A0=A0=A0I have one, and am planning to purchase two more
battery-powered air pumps to run in concert with the regular plug-in
types, just in case the power were to go out while I am away. I have
already tested the one that I currently have that runs on two "D" type
batteries. =A0 I had to leave during the time Hurricane Frances came a
visiting, and they lasted from 10:49am, on September 2nd, and was still
running on September 7th, at around noon [I had much fewer fish in only
one tank then]. Can any of you folks suggest anything else that I can do
to ensure their health and happiness, while I am away for four days,
coping with the results from the follies of me ill-spent youth? I would
truly appreciate any and all help that y'all might provide. Pax
Vobiscum,...~Dean.
Hey Dean.
Good luck with the procedure in a couple weeks. =3D ) Now for the fish... =

Give them a good feed the day before leaving and a water change. That's
all.
They'll be peachy for 4 days without food. What ever you do, do NOT, I
can't stress that enough, do not use one of the "weekend feeders" or
"vacation feeders". They are nasty nasty, and will pollute your tank,
mess thewater chemsitry up and you may end up coming home to dead fish.
=3D (
Most are made of plaster with food bits in it. Not a good thing.
-----------------------------------------------------
Thanks IDzine,...Hopefully all will go Grand, the docs will get rich
[the main reason for the proceedure], and I'll be back home from
hospital, my face to the glass, a-makin' faces at my biggest [and most
demon-like looking] Pleco, at about four and a half inches long, lookin'
like somebody's nightmare,...seein' if I can get him [or her] ta crack a
wee bit o' a smile.<LOL>~Dean.

[Papa Red]

Papa Red wrote:
For all of your expertise, you've never drained a container of
free-flowing liquid, utilizing the clear rubber tubing
.................................................. .......
Folks may be more inclined to answer your questions if you aren't
abrasive towards them when they do.
--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com
-------------------------------------------------
Eric, I want you should explain something to me,...In what way was I
abusive, by asking a very simple question? A question that was in
response to people not being able to comprehend how an old woman could
possibly change the water in the plastic Betta container, without having
to carry the whole plastic container across her apartment, water
sloshing out here and there.~Dean.

[Papa Red]

"Papa Red" > wrote in message
... That exception
being, is that in
Thailand they have, "Sy-phon", the rainy season, where you look off to a
distance and see this great mass of purples, blues, and blacks, a wall
that extends from the ground ever upwards, up to the ceiling of the sky,
and across the great distance, as such, that if you were to try and
follow it, you would follow it up and overhead, and beyond to the other,
opposite horizon, with that mass, that great wall of blues, purples and
blacks, coming ever closer towards you, gobbling up everything it
passes, rice patties, trees, buildings, hills and whole mountains,
giving one the feeling that they are being approached by this humongous
tri-coloured monster, to the point that I have seen persons of good and
brave character, damn near break and run. And then the rain falls, with
each drop, like the monster, humongous, and bringing about redness,
sometimes swelling, and even sunburned-like pain, where it comes in
contact with bare skin,...
.................................................. .....
Spoken like someone who has really experienced it first hand!
dwhite
------------------------------------------------

There really are not any words to truly convey the experience, for it is
one where all of your senses come into play, not just your eyes,...as
well, I might say, a bit o' nightmarish fear,...like a real "Godzilla",
come to life, and into your life, traveling towards you, faster than you
can run.
Oh. one rather neat thing, is that they also have the Sy-phon Festival,
where you can throw water on anyone, be they your commanding officer, a
total stranger peacefully sitting in a park, playing his clarinet, or
His Royal Majesty, King Bhumibol, the Grandest Gentleman that I have
ever met, even dripping wet,...Hey, his clarinet wasn't damaged<LOL>
{Couldn't do that with any other world leader. Unfortunately, he no
longer has close contact with folks now}~Dean.

[RedForeman ©®]

| Have you ever viewed the re-actions to, actions with, and interactions
| of elephants, when a group of wild African elephants come upon the
| skeletal remains of other elephants? What I find most interesting, is
| that after all of the different elephants of the group have handled
| and mulled over the bones, they take those bones and spread them all
| around the area, as if to secret them away.~Dean.

That's not a surprise at all.... Like I said, where communications, and
language matter, animals are to each other as humans are. The communicate,
socialize, raise children, greive, and virtually everything, just like
humans... the lacking ability is speech. That's been bridged with ASL, and
with work, you don't need ASL, just an open mind and some heartfelt
thinking, you can figure out what an animal's thoughts are...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[RedForeman ©®]

|| Thank you very much Peggy for posting that really neat link to Koko's
|| website. She is very special to me. I just wish that I could
|| 'talk' to her, but my ASL [American Sign Language] isn't of the
|| quality to do so,...I know a few things, but not enough, but for
|| emergency situations. By the way, I have a ASL website that quite
|| literally shows you how to sign what ever words that you type into
|| the 'thingie'. If anybody wants, I can post the site.~Dean.

Dean, please do...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[Eric Schreiber]

Papa Red wrote:

> Eric, I want you should explain something to me,...In what way was I
> abusive, by asking a very simple question?

Who said abusive? I said 'abrasive'.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Vicki S]

>Wow, a webtv user with such an
>intelligent post... go figure

Now, now, lets not group all webbie users together. Some of us love
using the webtv because it is easy to fill up the "in" box and leave the
pc for other stuff.

Vicki


"It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow fond of it."

~ Robert E. Lee~

Visit me on line at
http://shamrock4u.250free.com

To send e-mail delete webtv.net and add msn.com
(put to Vicki in subject line or my spam filter will discard)

[Papa Red]

http://www.where.com/cgi-bin/asl.pl

[Papa Red]

http://www.where.com/cgi-bin/asl.pl

[[email protected]]

http://www.zared.com/Recreation/Pets/Birds/Species/Parrots/African_Greys/