fish dying

[rasta]

thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.

i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
since april of this year. it has a 950g/hr mag pump with the discharge
split into a venturi and a bioforce 1000 bio-mechanical filter. it has
been home to 6 - 5 inch comets during this time with no probs. been
doing 10% wcs monthly and did a 20% wc 3 weeks ago when i cleaned the
filter pads (rinsing the pads in water taken from pond for the wc). i
use amquel+ for water top offs and wcs (treating the water taken up in
30g plastic containers and aerating before adding to the pond). the
pond sits under a patio cover in the back yard and is shaded
throughout the day.

the prob:

i lost 4 fish in the last 12 hrs. with no signs of flashing or
abnormal behavior. the four started going belly up within hours of one
another. as i saw signs of them struggling to hang on (swimming
erratically, etc, as dying fish do) i placed them in a 30g container
with freshly conditioned water and a powerhead for circulation. they
died hours apart. ran tests at first sign of distress:

nh3- 0
no2 - 0
no3 - 10
pH - 7.8

i keep fresh and salt tanks and know losing fish sometimes happens.
but i only lose 1 every so often - never a fish kill like this. i
think i've done everything right (including adding a large bag of well
rinsed activated carbon to the return of the pond last night to
remove possible pollutants). i just looked in on the remaining two and
they're swimming around fine - no signs of distress.

i know this is long but am hoping to get some possiblities of what
happened.

[rasta]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:49:31 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

<snip>

thanks for the response.
>
>Adding a bag of freshly activated carbon to the mix probably sucked all your
>oxygen out of the water, you need to pre-soak this stuff b4 use. Do you have
>a waterfall? Hows your surface agitation? Your water parameters sound fine
>(how old are your test kits?) so oxygen depletion is the only thing that
>springs to mind.

carbon was well rinsed and soaked (in ro/di water) for about an hour
as i do with all carbon additions. the kill started before i did this.
the remaining two are swimming fine after the addition. i know the
carbon didn't do it.

for aeration, i have the pump discharge going to a venturi and using
an urn for a return (about 1 foot fall).

test kits are reliable.

seep pics in sig:

positive vibes, rasta
http://rynholland.tripod.com/
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id2.html
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id1.html

[Happy'Cam'per]

"rasta" > wrote in message
...
> thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.
>
> i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
> since april of this year. it has a 950g/hr mag pump with the discharge
> split into a venturi and a bioforce 1000 bio-mechanical filter. it has
> been home to 6 - 5 inch comets during this time with no probs. been
> doing 10% wcs monthly and did a 20% wc 3 weeks ago when i cleaned the
> filter pads (rinsing the pads in water taken from pond for the wc). i

Adding a bag of freshly activated carbon to the mix probably sucked all your
oxygen out of the water, you need to pre-soak this stuff b4 use. Do you have
a waterfall? Hows your surface agitation? Your water parameters sound fine
(how old are your test kits?) so oxygen depletion is the only thing that
springs to mind.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Cam]

rasta wrote:>
> i lost 4 fish in the last 12 hrs. with no signs of flashing or
> abnormal behavior.

It's a long shot but has anyone sprayed any pesticides around lately? I
lost my fish last year when a neighbour sprayed for wasps.

Cam

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:49:31 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

>"rasta" > wrote in message
...
>> thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.
>>
>> i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
>> since april of this year. it has a 950g/hr mag pump with the discharge
>> split into a venturi and a bioforce 1000 bio-mechanical filter. it has
>> been home to 6 - 5 inch comets during this time with no probs. been
>> doing 10% wcs monthly and did a 20% wc 3 weeks ago when i cleaned the
>> filter pads (rinsing the pads in water taken from pond for the wc). i
>
>Adding a bag of freshly activated carbon to the mix probably sucked all your
>oxygen out of the water, you need to pre-soak this stuff b4 use. Do you have

WOW! I did not know this. Thank you for that info!

I thought activated charcoal only removed impurities that could hurt
the fish, not actually hurt my fish.

thanks,

tom





>a waterfall? Hows your surface agitation? Your water parameters sound fine
>(how old are your test kits?) so oxygen depletion is the only thing that
>springs to mind.

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[Jerry Donovan]

Most likely this isn't your problem, but last year I lost some fish
(GF) just before my pump died. I suspect that it overheated/cracked
and leaked something into the water. After it quit and I replaced
the pump with a new one, fish seemed to survive fine. If your pump
is still running fine, I'm not sure how you might check it though.

Jerry

"rasta" > wrote in message
...
> thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.
>
> i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
> since april of this year. it has a 950g/hr mag pump with the discharge
> split into a venturi and a bioforce 1000 bio-mechanical filter. it has
> been home to 6 - 5 inch comets during this time with no probs. been
> doing 10% wcs monthly and did a 20% wc 3 weeks ago when i cleaned the
> filter pads (rinsing the pads in water taken from pond for the wc). i
> use amquel+ for water top offs and wcs (treating the water taken up in
> 30g plastic containers and aerating before adding to the pond). the
> pond sits under a patio cover in the back yard and is shaded
> throughout the day.
>
> the prob:
>
> i lost 4 fish in the last 12 hrs. with no signs of flashing or
> abnormal behavior. the four started going belly up within hours of one
> another. as i saw signs of them struggling to hang on (swimming
> erratically, etc, as dying fish do) i placed them in a 30g container
> with freshly conditioned water and a powerhead for circulation. they
> died hours apart. ran tests at first sign of distress:
>
> nh3- 0
> no2 - 0
> no3 - 10
> pH - 7.8
>
> i keep fresh and salt tanks and know losing fish sometimes happens.
> but i only lose 1 every so often - never a fish kill like this. i
> think i've done everything right (including adding a large bag of well
> rinsed activated carbon to the return of the pond last night to
> remove possible pollutants). i just looked in on the remaining two and
> they're swimming around fine - no signs of distress.
>
> i know this is long but am hoping to get some possiblities of what
> happened.

[Oxymel of Squill]

no no no no no no no

ponds sit for a year before you put fish in. You don't have to faff around
with chemical this and that, you let the pond just sit there for a year (at
least) to sort out its own chemistry


"rasta" > wrote in message
...
> thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.
>
> i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
> since april of this year. it has a 950g/

[Newbie Bill]

May I respectfully suggest a year is way overkill. That's almost like
saying the best way to enjoy your next sex is to wait a year. In both cases
I am sure this would work, but what a price to pay. I doubt that most
people are willing to go to the potentially back breaking work of digging a
pond, put out the investment, gather the plants, get everything set up and
then say I think I'll wait a year before I enjoy any fish. Someone
suggested on a couple of fish, particularly given the season. This makes
sense. Waiting till spring and your biofilter is up before doing any slow
quarantined stocking. This makes sense. I am still in the tail end of my
first year. Personally I would be ****ed if I found out later that I missed
a whole year of the immense enjoyment I have gotten from my fish, just to
err on the side of caution. Yes I have had a few problems and very
unfortunately a few fish died. But 5 or 6 months into it everything was and
is pretty much stable, clear and healthy. This group, I think can guide many
or most people rather than just sitting a waiting a whole year. We may
never know whether rasta did everything perfectly and it was just a chance
event that has caused his problem. The same thing could happen a year from
now, if it is not a balanced pond issue. So I say yes, go slowly and
carefully particularly at first, but not that slow.
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"Oxymel of Squill" > wrote in message
...
> no no no no no no no
>
> ponds sit for a year before you put fish in. You don't have to faff around
> with chemical this and that, you let the pond just sit there for a year
(at
> least) to sort out its own chemistry
>
>
> "rasta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > thought i would draw on the collective wisdom of this group.
> >
> > i have a 300g inground pond with a 45 mil liner that has been running
> > since april of this year. it has a 950g/
>
>

[rasta]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:11:35 +0100, "Oxymel of Squill"
> wrote:

>no no no no no no no
>
>ponds sit for a year before you put fish in. You don't have to faff around
>with chemical this and that, you let the pond just sit there for a year (at
>least) to sort out its own chemistry


???????????

did you look at pics of my pond in my sig? it's a "formal" pond - not
a farm pond where you may wait for grasses to cultivate to achieve a
natural form of filtration.

the pond has never been dosed with chemicals. the only chems ever
added has been to remove chloramines at wcs.

positive vibes, rasta
http://rynholland.tripod.com/
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id2.html
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id1.html

[rasta]

On 10 Sep 2004 06:11:32 -0700, "Cam" > wrote:

>
>rasta wrote:>
>> i lost 4 fish in the last 12 hrs. with no signs of flashing or
>> abnormal behavior.
>
>It's a long shot but has anyone sprayed any pesticides around lately? I
>lost my fish last year when a neighbour sprayed for wasps.
>
>Cam

pesticides are a very real possibilty. i live in a suburban area -
very close to neighbors. also being in zone 9 and near the coast the
county sprays for mosquitoes. don't know if any sprayings from either
source have happened recently. again, don't know if the addition of
carbon is what helped the other two survive but could be an
explaination.

[rasta]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:21:18 GMT, "Jerry Donovan" >
wrote:

>Most likely this isn't your problem, but last year I lost some fish
>(GF) just before my pump died. I suspect that it overheated/cracked
>and leaked something into the water. After it quit and I replaced
>the pump with a new one, fish seemed to survive fine. If your pump
>is still running fine, I'm not sure how you might check it though.
>
>Jerry


jerry

the pump used is a supreme mag drive - supposed to be oil free, which
is why i chose it. i had read of events like yours happening in the
past, tho. glad to hear you solved your prob.

positive vibes, rasta
http://rynholland.tripod.com/
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id2.html
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id1.html

[Derek Broughton]

Newbie Bill wrote:

> May I respectfully suggest a year is way overkill. That's almost like
> saying the best way to enjoy your next sex is to wait a year. In both

Ack! Please. I agree with you, but lets not be extreme with the examples.
That's just too scary to contemplate!

> I am sure this would work, but what a price to pay. I doubt that most
> people are willing to go to the potentially back breaking work of digging
> a pond, put out the investment, gather the plants, get everything set up
> and
> then say I think I'll wait a year before I enjoy any fish.

Yes, slow and steady is the key. otoh, it depends on the quality of your
fish too. If all you keep is feeder goldfish to control mosquitos, you can
skip quarantine, anyway.
--
derek

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>May I respectfully suggest a year is way overkill. That's almost like
>saying the best way to enjoy your next sex is to wait a year.

ROTFLOL!!!

>I doubt that most people are willing

Willing? Why should they be when so many of us on this group have had
success and we sure didn't wait a year. I bet there are some on here that
didn't even make it to the end of the day of filling, and their fish
survived in spite of. ;o)

>Someone suggested on a couple of fish, particularly given the season.

That would be me. It's a low recommendation, if I say 2, hopefully they'll
only get 4. ;o) Saying that though, I'm really hoping they'll only get
TWO!!! ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:00:21 -0500, rasta > wrote:

>>It's a long shot but has anyone sprayed any pesticides around lately? I
>>lost my fish last year when a neighbour sprayed for wasps.
>>Cam

This would be my guess also after reading all the info on the pond,
parameters and pump. I assume you hadn't added anything new to the pond in
the last day or so before this happened, new pots, spitter, plants, etc?
Anything that could have had a contaminate on it? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Karen]

In article >, rasta
> writes:

>pesticides are a very real possibilty. i live in a suburban area -
>very close to neighbors. also being in zone 9 and near the coast the
>county sprays for mosquitoes

when I lived in Houston, they sprayed at 2 am, so most people weren't aware of
it. how close is your pond to the street, mine was at the very back of my
property, and I didn't have any problems with the spray reaching them. I also
had quite a few trees to stop the penetration. I always worried about the
spraying.

Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K.M.Studios/K.M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

[rasta]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:43:25 -0700, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:00:21 -0500, rasta > wrote:
>
>>>It's a long shot but has anyone sprayed any pesticides around lately? I
>>>lost my fish last year when a neighbour sprayed for wasps.
>>>Cam
>
>This would be my guess also after reading all the info on the pond,
>parameters and pump. I assume you hadn't added anything new to the pond in
>the last day or so before this happened, new pots, spitter, plants, etc?
>Anything that could have had a contaminate on it? ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

no, no new additions, elsewise this would have been my first guess.

pesticide/atmospheric poisining would be my guess also.

fwiw, the two survivors are swimming vigaroulsy. i believe the lesson
learned is (for me) to run carbon continuously as i do in all my
tanks.


thanks for the comments folkz!

positive vibes, rasta
http://rynholland.tripod.com/
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id2.html
http://rynholland.tripod.com/pond/id1.html

[Tom L. La Bron]

Karen,

Where I live when they spray for mosquitoes they run up
and down the alleys. Don't know about your area, but
here we can request that the spray truck not go down
our alley.

So far they have respected all requests, because some
people are allergic to the spray that they use.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
Karen wrote:
> In article >, rasta
> > writes:
>
>
>>pesticides are a very real possibilty. i live in a suburban area -
>>very close to neighbors. also being in zone 9 and near the coast the
>>county sprays for mosquitoes
>
>
> when I lived in Houston, they sprayed at 2 am, so most people weren't aware of
> it. how close is your pond to the street, mine was at the very back of my
> property, and I didn't have any problems with the spray reaching them. I also
> had quite a few trees to stop the penetration. I always worried about the
> spraying.
>
> Karen
> Zone 5
> Ashland, OH
> http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
> My Art Studio at
> http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K.M.Studios/K.M.Studios.html
> for email remove the extra extention
>
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

while it can be city/county spraying that is the problem many are using Bti which is
not toxic for fish. it is the neighbor next door or the "for hire" sprayers like for
termites that overspray (stupid neighbors, cheap labor).
I talked to people on both sides about not spraying anything without telling me.
unfortunately, the "natural" insecticides... pyrethrin are extremely toxic to fish
whereas synthetics like malathion are less so. often it is the "carriers" in the
pesticides that are very toxic, like naptha based carriers.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Cam" > wrote in message
...
>

> Cam

Nice to see another Cameron *handshakes* :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**