Taking back dead or diseased fish

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
t...
> "Dances With Ferrets" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I agree with Billy on most of those points.
>
> [snip]
> >
> > I imagine that it all depends on the demographics of the area
> > and the particular customer. Maybe with your LFS, it is simply a
> > matter of getting to know the fish and people there and building a
> > reputation with them. I'm sorry if I'm a little long-winded, but I
> > figure this might give you some insight.
>
> Yes, all that makes good sense and I know what you mean about people
trying
> to take advantage. The thing I am wondering about is the grey area
where
> someone buys a diseased fish from a store, and then has it die on them
6
> weeks later. In my case I *may* have a diseased gourami as discussed
in the
> forum, and since my tank is only about 6 weeks old, the
parasite/disease
> probably came from the fish store. I guess if I am a regular customer
I
> would get some consideration.
>
> If I buy fruit with bugs inside at the supermarket, I will get a
refund. If
> I you anything that is defective for that matter, you deserve a refund.
I
> know this is more difficult with fish so that's why I wondered what the
> "normal" practice was.
>
> thanks,
> dwhite


Technically, at 6 weeks you have no recourse (especially with fruit flies
;~). Even at 2 weeks, you would be lucky to get something. What a store
decides to do after a couple of weeks is purely customer service.
Economically, they would probably destroy the returned fish right away.
If you introduced a disease to your tank with your fish purchase, you
will most probably be out of luck as well. The LFS would not normally
take responsibility for your other fish, and will tell you that you need
to follow certain procedures when mixing live animals (like
quarantining). For all my customers, I was extremely diligent about not
selling 'suspect' fish just to prevent these situations, and when it did
occur, I would use my discretion discounting fish to re-stock their tank.
I did this for anyone who demonstrated a rudimentary knowledge (or if
they were raw beginners), and they all tended to become regulars after
that :o).

I tried to write something about picking fish at the LFS. Perhaps it
could help another time.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/fishselection/fishselection.shtml
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dan White]

What is the etiquette on returning fish to a store where you think you got a
bad fish? I've got one supplier that said he doesn't take back fish,
although he begrudgingly said he would take one particular fish back if I
really had to. PetSmart has a 14 day return policy, no questions asked. I
see in this group that people seem to be trading fish in pretty easily, but
it seems to me around here (NJ) it isn't that easy.

Thanks,
dwhite

[Billy]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
. ..
| What is the etiquette on returning fish to a store where you think
you got a
| bad fish? I've got one supplier that said he doesn't take back
fish,
| although he begrudgingly said he would take one particular fish
back if I
| really had to. PetSmart has a 14 day return policy, no questions
asked. I
| see in this group that people seem to be trading fish in pretty
easily, but
| it seems to me around here (NJ) it isn't that easy.
|


Depends on the retailer. Any LFS, IMO, that will not take freshwater
fish back, for refund, replacement or otherwise, is not doing good
business. A person who takes a fish home, finds it dead 10 hours
later, and returns with a water sample that checks out should be
given the benefit of the doubt, as well as a new fish. The customer
will be pleased with the customer service, and return with more money
at a later date.
That said, placing the fish in a plastic bag with just enough
moisture to prevent drying is acceptable. I once frequented an LFS
that liked them brought back frozen.
Sal****er aquaria is another story, few stores guarantee marine
critters due to the comparatively sensitive nature of them.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004

[Dances With Ferrets]

I agree with Billy on most of those points.

However, being an experienced employee of this profession... I'll
give you my take on it. The store I work for also has a policy
against taking back fish for refund, credit, etc. Except if the person
comes in or calls within 3 days and brings a water sample & receipt.
If water tests out OK, we replace the fish once free of charge. I
find this to be a reasonable policy. As far as taking back live fish
or sick fish... I don't know about the demographics in your area, but
we have a very high number of people in this area who think that they
can bend the laws of nature by doing silly things like putting
gouramis with large african cichlids or putting discus with their
goldfish, or simply not doing any water changes for months or years
because their tank water is "clear" therefore, it shouldn't have to be
cleaned. Or they live in a drafty farmhouse or trailer and insist
that they don't need a heater for their sensitive tropical species
because there is a woodstove in the same room as the tank. More than
once, I've had people bring a fish back in the bag less than 6 hours
from the time of sale, and the fish was in multiple pieces in the bag,
and they insisted that it died in the bag on the way home.

There are also a lot of amateur hobbyists out there who refuse to
educate themselves on a fish's behavior and eventual adult size....
They bring an asian gar or oscar home to their poorly-maintained
10-gallon tank with sick fish in it... then try to bring it back
diseased because it killed most of their fish and ripped up the
plants, on top of that they thought that it wouldn't grow because
their tank was so small. In order to take a fish like that back, we
would not only have to put it in isolation and medicate it for a
couple weeks at the very least, but we'd be putting twice the fishes'
retail value in medication and store resources into it.

We try to treat everyone like they are honest, decent people, but
many people will try to scam a retailer for as much as possible, which
is why we have to cover our backs and make prohibitive return
policies.

What a hobbyist does with a fish once it leaves our care is
beyond our control. If we replaced every single fish that died due to
inappropriate housing conditions outside the store, or simply abuse
in transport, we would be driven out of business. We do our utmost to
educate people about proper care, housing, and transport, but there
are many who think they can go against all conventional wisdom.
However, we do have a core of loyal hobbyists who have a long-standing
relationship with us and we know that they are keeping their tanks
appropriately. We don't mind making special exceptions for these
folks.

I imagine that it all depends on the demographics of the area
and the particular customer. Maybe with your LFS, it is simply a
matter of getting to know the fish and people there and building a
reputation with them. I'm sorry if I'm a little long-winded, but I
figure this might give you some insight.

[Dan White]

"Dances With Ferrets" > wrote in message
om...
> I agree with Billy on most of those points.

[snip]
>
> I imagine that it all depends on the demographics of the area
> and the particular customer. Maybe with your LFS, it is simply a
> matter of getting to know the fish and people there and building a
> reputation with them. I'm sorry if I'm a little long-winded, but I
> figure this might give you some insight.

Yes, all that makes good sense and I know what you mean about people trying
to take advantage. The thing I am wondering about is the grey area where
someone buys a diseased fish from a store, and then has it die on them 6
weeks later. In my case I *may* have a diseased gourami as discussed in the
forum, and since my tank is only about 6 weeks old, the parasite/disease
probably came from the fish store. I guess if I am a regular customer I
would get some consideration.

If I buy fruit with bugs inside at the supermarket, I will get a refund. If
I you anything that is defective for that matter, you deserve a refund. I
know this is more difficult with fish so that's why I wondered what the
"normal" practice was.

thanks,
dwhite

[Dances With Ferrets]

I see what you mean about the whole diseased fish grey area.... I'd
think it reasonable to take cases like that on an individual basis.
I've occasionally had customers who somehow got a diseased fish that
slipped through the staff's watchful eye... Usually if they at least
call within a couple days... I'll let them return it for an exchange
or credit. I'd think the same would be fair for any other retailer.
Although being six weeks from your date of purchase, I don't know of
anyone who would normally accept it back after such a long time
period.

I think of fish illnesses as being similar to human illnesses. There
are constantly viruses and assorted bacterium circulating around us in
the air and on surfaces. The same in a fish aquarium, even if in
small amounts. Both fish and people get sick much more easily when
they are chronically stressed-out for some reason, due to the body
devoting more resources to simply surviving than to overall health,
thus leading to a compromised immune system. For a fish, it could be
incorrect PH, another fish beating on it, rapid changes in water
temperature, inadequate filtration, overfeeding, and the list goes
on... these are all factors that can "stress them out". While it is
possible that you may have acquired a fish that was sick already, it's
doubtful that the incubation period for the latent illness was longer
than a few days, maybe a week at most.


Out of idle curiousity, what are your fish's symptoms? Due to
excessive inbreeding and selective cross-breeding, and lack of natural
selection in captivity, some fish are born with congenital defects
(either internal or externeal) do not mistake these defects for
illness.

Regarding Petsmart's 14-day return policy.... they buy fish en-masse
through a middle-man or ordering rep. Thus they can afford this sort
of policy. This is their attempt to edge out competition from the
private sector. But they can never claim to have a completely
knowledgeable staff or superior stock. I speak from extensive
experience as a hobbyist and a professional. I've found most people
to be much more appreciative of a concerned, knowledgeable staff and
higher quality fish. Ooops, must stop before this becomes another
tirade !!! :)

[Dan White]

"Dances With Ferrets" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Out of idle curiousity, what are your fish's symptoms? Due to
> excessive inbreeding and selective cross-breeding, and lack of natural
> selection in captivity, some fish are born with congenital defects
> (either internal or externeal) do not mistake these defects for
> illness.

It is all in the thread on Pics of Gourami Disease or Problem. Since I've
just started getting fish recently (and hadn't done so in 25 years) I was
wondering about return policies and the gourami discussion prompted this
thread. The fish had a lesion or bump that I took pics of here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/album?.dir=f5ad&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/my_photos

There seemed to be less concern over the lesion and more over the concave
shape behind and above the head, best seen in the first and last photos. He
did flash a little since I got him and every once in a while he would dart
for no apparent reason, but not frequently. He eats aggressively and seems
normal otherwise...full stomach but thin head area.

>
> Regarding Petsmart's 14-day return policy.... they buy fish en-masse
> through a middle-man or ordering rep. Thus they can afford this sort
> of policy. This is their attempt to edge out competition from the
> private sector. But they can never claim to have a completely
> knowledgeable staff or superior stock. I speak from extensive
> experience as a hobbyist and a professional. I've found most people
> to be much more appreciative of a concerned, knowledgeable staff and
> higher quality fish. Ooops, must stop before this becomes another
> tirade !!! :)

I'm going to comment on this in another thread.

thanks,
dwhite