Filtering out dirt and fish waste question,.building a small waterfall, fish dieing, help me?

[jammer]

I wish i were able to post captioned pictures but i am not.

Oh my, what a two weeks i have had. First let me say "hi!" to
everyone, i havent kept up with the group but no doubt will for a
while now again.

okie dokie...... I had the 70 gallon pond sitting in the ground with
only fish and no pump, filtration, etc. My fish were two years old and
big and happy...little clowns they were. Well, live and learn! I
pulled up a plant and i guess released the mulm into the water and my
3 fish went belly up. I have done at least a 75% water change since
then, but fish continue to die if left there but tend to recover if i
put them somewhere else. I have never had to worry about ph and stuff,
everyone was happy.

Here is what has changed:

I added about a 150 gallon raised preform that runs into the bottom
pond. I built a little waterfall to run into the new top pond and
dropped a 250gph pump into the bottom pond. This is when i notice
large dirt particles being circulated around. ('ll be cleaning it soon
but still...) I know i need a filter but what is the easiest/cheapest
way to go for my small set-up? A rubber maid tub with some sort of
material...... I can do a web search but what can i use that is fish
safe? I itch just thinking about insulation, anything easier to
handle/clean? And why are my fish ok in the top pond but not the
bottom?

On a sour note, My waterfall made the side of the pond tilt and most
of the water ran into the yard. Tomorrow i tear out the old and make
new. I DID have some fish in the bottom and so i had the pump running
in there but the fish got distressed so i removed 3 of the 4, turned
off the pump, and added all i had, a very very small bubbler. I dont
know if anyone will be alive tomorrow or not. The waterfall has to go
in a very small area between the pond and fence. I used rock and dirt
to make the slope, covered with liner hanging into the pond a bit, and
used flat rock to build 'er up. It was great until the whole thing
tilted...

I think i saw brown speckles on the gold heads of the distressed fish?
One that died last week looked like blood pooled in it's stomach.

?

[Crashj]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:48:50 -0500, jammer > wrote:
>I wish i were able to post captioned pictures but i am not.
<>
Sure you can. Go get a Yahoo account and then you can put hundreds of
megs of photos online to share. It helps if you put small size files
there as some are still using dialup connections.
Can't help with the fish problems, but someone will be along
momentarily.
(all our experts are helping other ponders. Your post is important to
us, so please continue to hold . . .)
--
Crashj

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:48:50 -0500, jammer > wrote:

>I have never had to worry about ph and stuff,
>everyone was happy.

Time to worry, you've seen all the answers of what kits to have on hand, so
I suggest you get them and let us know what the numbers are. :o)

In a nutshell, you added at top pond that pours into the old bottom pond,
fish are/were dying in the bottom pond, but were okay in the top pond?

How big a pump did you put in the lower pond?

How long did it pump till you had to turn it off?

You disturbed a plant, releasing mulm in the lower pond?

Was this before or after the pump was circulating? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[RichToyBox]

The water fall is acting as a skimmer for the top pond and all the dust,
dirt, debris that lands on the pond, plus any floating plant material all go
over the water fall to the small pond at the bottom. The pump will
recirculate some of this stuff, since it will be dispersed through the water
column. The bottom pond will fill with muck, mulm, fairly quickly and needs
to be cleaned regularly. When I started out, I had a similar setup to
yours, and then added a 1500 gallon liner pond to the mix, and then the
amount of mulm built up very quickly in the bottom pond.

You really need a solids handling pump that you can put on the bottom of the
small lower pond and then have the water circulated through some form of
filter that can be easily cleaned, or you will be cleaning the bottom pond
very often, or you will be building pockets of hydrogen sulfide gas that
will kill fish, if you want to have fish in the lower pond. If you don't
mind not having fish in the lower pond, then it can be a settling tank,
setting the pump intake near the surface, and as material builds up, turn
off the pump, use a shop vac or similar to clean the pond and then refill
the bottom pond and restart the system.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"jammer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here is what has changed:
>
> I added about a 150 gallon raised preform that runs into the bottom
> pond. I built a little waterfall to run into the new top pond and
> dropped a 250gph pump into the bottom pond. This is when i notice
> large dirt particles being circulated around. ('ll be cleaning it soon
> but still...) I know i need a filter but what is the easiest/cheapest
> way to go for my small set-up? A rubber maid tub with some sort of
> material...... I can do a web search but what can i use that is fish
> safe? I itch just thinking about insulation, anything easier to
> handle/clean? And why are my fish ok in the top pond but not the
> bottom?
>

[jammer]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:27:38 -0700, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:48:50 -0500, jammer > wrote:
>
>>I have never had to worry about ph and stuff,
>>everyone was happy.
>
>Time to worry, you've seen all the answers of what kits to have on
hand, so
>I suggest you get them and let us know what the numbers are. :o)

Yes, i guess so.....


>
>In a nutshell, you added at top pond that pours into the old bottom
pond,
>fish are/were dying in the bottom pond, but were okay in the top
pond?

YES
>
>How big a pump did you put in the lower pond?

250gph
>
>How long did it pump till you had to turn it off?

24 hrs or so
>
>You disturbed a plant, releasing mulm in the lower pond?

yes
>
>Was this before or after the pump was circulating?

before

~ jan
>
>
> And the fish i added and tried to save, they died. I guess
cleaning the bottom pond is a must, for one thing.



Thanks, jan

[jammer]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:57:18 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> wrote:

>The water fall is acting as a skimmer for the top pond and all the
dust,
>dirt, debris that lands on the pond, plus any floating plant material
all go
>over the water fall to the small pond at the bottom. The pump will
>recirculate some of this stuff, since it will be dispersed through
the water
>column. The bottom pond will fill with muck, mulm, fairly quickly
and needs
>to be cleaned regularly. When I started out, I had a similar setup
to
>yours, and then added a 1500 gallon liner pond to the mix, and then
the
>amount of mulm built up very quickly in the bottom pond.
>
>You really need a solids handling pump that you can put on the bottom
of the
>small lower pond and then have the water circulated through some form
of
>filter that can be easily cleaned, or you will be cleaning the bottom
pond
>very often, or you will be building pockets of hydrogen sulfide gas
that
>will kill fish, if you want to have fish in the lower pond. If you
don't
>mind not having fish in the lower pond, then it can be a settling
tank,
>setting the pump intake near the surface, and as material builds up,
turn
>off the pump, use a shop vac or similar to clean the pond and then
refill
>the bottom pond and restart the system.

*I was thinking about throwing in a dunk and saying to heck with fish,
but next spring i will have tadpoles again so i have to get this
right.

Solids handling pump........i will look that one up. Thanks

If i clean the bottom pond regularly, can i keep the 250 pondmaster
and waterfall? (will the fish live then)

I KNEW there had to be some explanation, thank you very much.

As always, juls/jammer

(i am sure i'll be back with more about this)

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>jammer > wrote:

>>Was this before or after the pump was circulating?
>
>before
>
Okay, sounds like they got toxed-out with hydrogen sulfide.
~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[jammer]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:56:59 -0700, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>>jammer > wrote:
>
>>>Was this before or after the pump was circulating?
>>
>>before
>>
>Okay, sounds like they got toxed-out with hydrogen sulfide.
>~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

What can i use for filtering that is fish safe and less itchy than
insulation?

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>>Okay, sounds like they got toxed-out with hydrogen sulfide.
>>~ jan
>
>What can i use for filtering that is fish safe and less itchy than
>insulation?

Out of the pond filter? Or around the pump?

Around an in-pond pump I only have mesh baskets to keep the big particles
out till they break down to little particulars, then I made an upflow
out-of-the-pond filter like the flower pot filters show at the bottom page
of *My Filter* on my website www.jjspond.us . This can be stuffed with
window screening, or in my case, because I had extra open cell foam, I used
pieces of it and then three 1" rounds.

I filter my 1,000 gallon lilypond with a 19 gallon size pot, 700 gph mag
drive in-pond. 7 large fantail goldfish with a few goldfish and koi babies.
Lots of plants (and once I got the pH below 8.4) it has been perfectly
clear. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[RichToyBox]

Your current pump will work, but I would lift it several inches off the
bottom to keep it from clogging or recycling the mulm on the bottom. When
the mulm starts to accumulate, it should be easy to clean from that size
pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"jammer" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:57:18 GMT, "RichToyBox"
>
> If i clean the bottom pond regularly, can i keep the 250 pondmaster
> and waterfall? (will the fish live then)
>
> I KNEW there had to be some explanation, thank you very much.
>
> As always, juls/jammer
>
> (i am sure i'll be back with more about this)
>

[jammer]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:47:48 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> wrote:

>Your current pump will work, but I would lift it several inches off
the
>bottom to keep it from clogging or recycling the mulm on the bottom.
When
>the mulm starts to accumulate, it should be easy to clean from that
size
>pond.

It is sitting on the bottom so thank you so much for this!

I got the sunken end raised today and will completely clean and
Condition them tomorrow. Then i'll re-build the waterfall and i MIGHT
just have time to enjoy it before i go out of town for several weeks.
I am still trying to think of a way to make a filter but cant find
"Small Filters For Dummies"... It should be ok for a while, then
someone can explain to me why it didnt work without one:)

I totally appreciate ya'lls input.

[jammer]

Ok, today i emptied and refilled the lower pond, adding "Right Start"
or something like that. I sat the pump on a brick platform about 4-5
inches off of the bottom. I also sprayed off the plants and cut back
some roots. (Those taro grow like freaking crazy here!) Then i
emptied the upper pond and caught the 3 remaining goldfish and plunked
them into the bottom pond. (That additive said it was fish ready
immediately) I shop vacced the top pond and filled and conditioned
it. I can probably actually go buy a few fish for it now. All that
took me up until dark and about 57 mosquito bites. (Off Schmoff) So i
propped the hose up with a rock over the top pond where the new
waterfall will be, and turned on the pump. Last i checked, the fish
were played chase.

I would like to thank you for your help. The answers may have been
easy, but i had no idea how much sludgey crap was in the bottom pond
and no wonder i every fish.

LIVE AND LEARN - I have learned plenty and will go on someday to
help my friends with their ponds.









On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:57:18 GMT, "RichToyBox"
> wrote:

>The water fall is acting as a skimmer for the top pond and all the
dust,
>dirt, debris that lands on the pond, plus any floating plant material
all go
>over the water fall to the small pond at the bottom. The pump will
>recirculate some of this stuff, since it will be dispersed through
the water
>column. The bottom pond will fill with muck, mulm, fairly quickly
and needs
>to be cleaned regularly. When I started out, I had a similar setup
to
>yours, and then added a 1500 gallon liner pond to the mix, and then
the
>amount of mulm built up very quickly in the bottom pond.
>
>You really need a solids handling pump that you can put on the bottom
of the
>small lower pond and then have the water circulated through some form
of
>filter that can be easily cleaned, or you will be cleaning the bottom
pond
>very often, or you will be building pockets of hydrogen sulfide gas
that
>will kill fish, if you want to have fish in the lower pond. If you
don't
>mind not having fish in the lower pond, then it can be a settling
tank,
>setting the pump intake near the surface, and as material builds up,
turn
>off the pump, use a shop vac or similar to clean the pond and then
refill
>the bottom pond and restart the system.

[jammer]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:40:03 -0500, jammer > wrote:

>
>I would like to thank you for your help. The answers may have been
>easy, but i had no idea how much sludgey crap was in the bottom pond
>and no wonder i every fish.

Clear as mulm, eh?

It's no wonder i killed my fish with all that crap in there but i
didnt realize how i had turned it into a settling tank.