Long Rambling on Local Fish Stores and BORGs

[Dan White]

I've had just a little experience with buying fish lately, but I've got a
lot retail experience, and from both sides of the checkout counter I might
add. Dances with Ferrets and some others were answering my question
regarding the obligation of the retailer to "stand behind their fish", be it
healthy or sick.

I have been taking stock of my experiences at the fish stores I have
frequented, and here's what I can report, for what it is worth. I should
also note that I am looking at these places as "Joe Public." Is the place
clean? Do the fish look healthy? Is the staff helpful? I'm also comparing
the little guys (LFS) to the BORG (Big Oppressive Retail Giant) who
assimilate everything in their path:

LFS 1: This place was around 35 years ago when I was a little more than a
toddler. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, and amazingly, it is
still in business! This store had the best selection of freshwater fish I
have seen. Is isn't fancy. They just open the doors in the summer and let
the tanks heat that way. I was told that it was cheaper to heat the whole
building and/or leave the doors open than it is to heat each tank. Makes
sense I guess. The owner appears like he doesn't really want to be there,
and has things to do so you better get your fish fast so he can go back to
doing whatever it is that is so important. He actually lost about $10 worth
of sales from me because after I bought that gourami (now sick?) I was
trying to get some ideas on plants (and I'm a quick, low maintenance
customer, too!) ... So I figured if he doesn't want my money I won't give
it to him. I asked him how he recommends acclimating the fish: "Float the
bag for half an hour, add some water from your tank, then put him in." I
dunno, I would have thought there to be a little more to it than that, but
maybe he is right after all. Maybe tropical fish are tolerant enough...he
knows better than I. I have been adding 1/4 cup (1 shot glass) of water
every 15 minutes 4 times, then putting them in after the final 15 minutes.
I originally took longer than that, but then thought I might be stressing
the fish more by leaving them in the bag for too long.

LFS 2: This is another place that has been around forever, but did move
down the street two decades ago. The fish selection was average, with a
rather large assortment of cichlids. The tanks didn't look that well
maintained, the place and tanks (algae) could have been cleaner (similar to
LFS 1), and there were some dead fish in the tanks. The help was two young
guys who seemed to know their stuff, but I'm not so sure of that. Their
answers were a little too along the lines of "It doesn't really matter that
much." (I guess it mattered to those dead fish.) They did have a couple of
nice show tanks stocked with either discus or cichlids.

LFS 3: This is the place where they advertise their employees to be
students at some oceanographic institute. You go in and everything appears
to be first class. Clean, neat, well staffed, trendy neon lights, etc..
When someone didn't know something about a plant, they told me they didn't
know and found someone who did. They had a bigger marine selection than
fresh, but their fresh selection was good, and I think had quite a few
interesting species. I think if I had a tank of semi aggressives then I'd
have more to shop for there. I think the place isn't cheap, but I haven't
done much direct shopping. They said they only use one supplier for
cardinal tetras because he's the best and most careful with the fish,
quarantining them at the wholesale level it appears. The wholesaler lost 40
out of 50 cardinals on his last shipment and didn't have a good stock, so
this LFS went without until next time. Bottom line, these guys were still
on the young side, but they were "All bidness" as they say. I don't know
what their return policy is. The only problem with a place like this is
that you can never really make the displays they have unless you get up to
your armpits in aquarium technobabble and devote your evenings and paycheck
to the hobby. Sometimes I just want a fish and some plants, not a PhD! All
in all, the best of the stores I have seen.

BORG - This is PetSmart. The fish section is clean and neat, the plant
selection is small but OK I guess, and the fish are nicely displayed. The
fish selection is not impressive. None of the help knows much except one
person who may be the manager of that section. She seems to know and love
the hobby. I did notice that their angels were twice as big for the same
price as at LFS1, but it could be because they were different types. The
one I bought was a little marbled and had a yellowish head. The ones at
PetSmart were just marbled. Prices of other stuff seemed good. I know how
the BORG can be factories and not tend to the needs of the fish, but the
general lack of customer support and store cleanliness at 2 of the 3 LFS's
makes me wonder. Also, the clean presentation of the fish makes up for the
lack of sales person knowledge. I guess fish just look more healthy in a
clean, well lit tank in a big bright space than in a tank with some algae, a
crooked light, and wet smelly carpet nearby.

All in all, I've bought fish from all the places above, and none have died.
The gourami may kick off (from LFS 1) but we'll see. I have to say that the
biggest factor I have been looking at, and what is most important to me is:

1. First impression of the store and fish tanks- clean and healthy,
2. Good selection of fish,
3. Knowledgeable sales people.

Having said the above, if I find a fish I really like in a crappy store with
kids running it, I will probably still buy it and put it in my still
to-be-formed quarantine tank.

OK so that ends my ramble for those who stuck with it. I don't have any big
ending, just that the fish biz doesn't seem that much different from any
other -- you have good and not so good small retailers, and you have the
BORG with their cheap prices undercutting everybody.

Thanks,
dwhite

[Justin Boucher]

Okay, here's a different perspective...

LFS 1... Only had one decent one nearby (20 min drive) and they knew their
stuff. Tanks were clean and fish were healthy (fresh only). I remember
only seeing one dead fish in all their tanks and as soon as I mentioned
something, they grabbed a net to get it out. This store was my first choice
and from what I can remember, a lot of other people's too. It got so busy
at times, they actually had one of those "draw a number" things. You may
have had to wait a while, but when it was your turn, it was YOUR turn. I
only write of then in past tense because the owners chose to close the
store. I believe life moved them out of state.

LFS 2... Very popular and closer to downtown. Tanks are nice and the staff
is just as knowledgable. Large fish selection (Fresh only). Customer
service however was in dire needs. You got your turn mostly by interrupting
the salesman during someone else's turn and had to put up with him/her
assisting others while helping you. Replies were short and direct. Not a
lot of explaination, but you knew that they were experience answers. I just
prefer an explaination as well.

BORG 1.. Fresh Only... A negative if you ask me for a BORG. An LFS can
be choosy to specialize and they practically need to in order to compete,
but a BORG (Petsmart) should have them both. Service was both young and
inexperienced. I actually overheard one of them give poor treatment advice
to a customer for ick. The customer perfectly described ick although he
didn't know what it was and I doubt the staff person knew either. At an
appropriate time (staff member gone) I interjected and not only indicated
the proper medication but suggested other non-medicinal solutions. It was
not uncommon to find dead fish in a tank. Or for that manner, several
tanks. Bottom line, only shop here if I NEED to.

BORG 2.. Ahhh....At least a selection of marine along with the fresh
albeit a small selection. Staff still needed some experience. I went in
looking for a particular brand of food once, patiently waited for them to
finish with the previous customer (no complaints there, good service) and
once the staff member got an idea of how much I knew and was "doing fish" he
started asking me some questions. The first was if his advice to the
previous customer was correct (which it was, I thought) and the last one was
if I wanted a job running the fish department. (Already had a job that paid
better though). Made me feel better about shopping there even if the
selections weren't all that great. They may not have a lot of experience
but they (or at least this guy) cared enough and was eager to learn.

In the end, I prefer LFS shopping over BORGs. The LFS will usually have a
greater variety beyond the normal stuff and if you feel out a good one, they
also have greater experience to answer your questions. Overall, most people
in an LFS are genuinely interested in fish rather than their counterparts
typically found in the BORGs who just needed a job.

Justin


"Dan White" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've had just a little experience with buying fish lately, but I've got a
> lot retail experience, and from both sides of the checkout counter I might
> add. Dances with Ferrets and some others were answering my question
> regarding the obligation of the retailer to "stand behind their fish", be
it
> healthy or sick.
>
> I have been taking stock of my experiences at the fish stores I have
> frequented, and here's what I can report, for what it is worth. I should
> also note that I am looking at these places as "Joe Public." Is the place
> clean? Do the fish look healthy? Is the staff helpful? I'm also
comparing
> the little guys (LFS) to the BORG (Big Oppressive Retail Giant) who
> assimilate everything in their path:
>
> LFS 1: This place was around 35 years ago when I was a little more than a
> toddler. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, and amazingly, it is
> still in business! This store had the best selection of freshwater fish I
> have seen. Is isn't fancy. They just open the doors in the summer and
let
> the tanks heat that way. I was told that it was cheaper to heat the whole
> building and/or leave the doors open than it is to heat each tank. Makes
> sense I guess. The owner appears like he doesn't really want to be there,
> and has things to do so you better get your fish fast so he can go back to
> doing whatever it is that is so important. He actually lost about $10
worth
> of sales from me because after I bought that gourami (now sick?) I was
> trying to get some ideas on plants (and I'm a quick, low maintenance
> customer, too!) ... So I figured if he doesn't want my money I won't give
> it to him. I asked him how he recommends acclimating the fish: "Float
the
> bag for half an hour, add some water from your tank, then put him in." I
> dunno, I would have thought there to be a little more to it than that, but
> maybe he is right after all. Maybe tropical fish are tolerant enough...he
> knows better than I. I have been adding 1/4 cup (1 shot glass) of water
> every 15 minutes 4 times, then putting them in after the final 15 minutes.
> I originally took longer than that, but then thought I might be stressing
> the fish more by leaving them in the bag for too long.
>
> LFS 2: This is another place that has been around forever, but did move
> down the street two decades ago. The fish selection was average, with a
> rather large assortment of cichlids. The tanks didn't look that well
> maintained, the place and tanks (algae) could have been cleaner (similar
to
> LFS 1), and there were some dead fish in the tanks. The help was two
young
> guys who seemed to know their stuff, but I'm not so sure of that. Their
> answers were a little too along the lines of "It doesn't really matter
that
> much." (I guess it mattered to those dead fish.) They did have a couple
of
> nice show tanks stocked with either discus or cichlids.
>
> LFS 3: This is the place where they advertise their employees to be
> students at some oceanographic institute. You go in and everything
appears
> to be first class. Clean, neat, well staffed, trendy neon lights, etc..
> When someone didn't know something about a plant, they told me they didn't
> know and found someone who did. They had a bigger marine selection than
> fresh, but their fresh selection was good, and I think had quite a few
> interesting species. I think if I had a tank of semi aggressives then I'd
> have more to shop for there. I think the place isn't cheap, but I haven't
> done much direct shopping. They said they only use one supplier for
> cardinal tetras because he's the best and most careful with the fish,
> quarantining them at the wholesale level it appears. The wholesaler lost
40
> out of 50 cardinals on his last shipment and didn't have a good stock, so
> this LFS went without until next time. Bottom line, these guys were still
> on the young side, but they were "All bidness" as they say. I don't know
> what their return policy is. The only problem with a place like this is
> that you can never really make the displays they have unless you get up to
> your armpits in aquarium technobabble and devote your evenings and
paycheck
> to the hobby. Sometimes I just want a fish and some plants, not a PhD!
All
> in all, the best of the stores I have seen.
>
> BORG - This is PetSmart. The fish section is clean and neat, the plant
> selection is small but OK I guess, and the fish are nicely displayed. The
> fish selection is not impressive. None of the help knows much except one
> person who may be the manager of that section. She seems to know and love
> the hobby. I did notice that their angels were twice as big for the same
> price as at LFS1, but it could be because they were different types. The
> one I bought was a little marbled and had a yellowish head. The ones at
> PetSmart were just marbled. Prices of other stuff seemed good. I know
how
> the BORG can be factories and not tend to the needs of the fish, but the
> general lack of customer support and store cleanliness at 2 of the 3 LFS's
> makes me wonder. Also, the clean presentation of the fish makes up for
the
> lack of sales person knowledge. I guess fish just look more healthy in a
> clean, well lit tank in a big bright space than in a tank with some algae,
a
> crooked light, and wet smelly carpet nearby.
>
> All in all, I've bought fish from all the places above, and none have
died.
> The gourami may kick off (from LFS 1) but we'll see. I have to say that
the
> biggest factor I have been looking at, and what is most important to me
is:
>
> 1. First impression of the store and fish tanks- clean and healthy,
> 2. Good selection of fish,
> 3. Knowledgeable sales people.
>
> Having said the above, if I find a fish I really like in a crappy store
with
> kids running it, I will probably still buy it and put it in my still
> to-be-formed quarantine tank.
>
> OK so that ends my ramble for those who stuck with it. I don't have any
big
> ending, just that the fish biz doesn't seem that much different from any
> other -- you have good and not so good small retailers, and you have the
> BORG with their cheap prices undercutting everybody.
>
> Thanks,
> dwhite
>
>

[Victor Martinez]

Here's my $0.02

LFS 1 - Best in class. Always healthy and great looking fish, both fresh
and marine. Best plant selection and they even sell marine invertebrates
(corals and stuff). Most knowledgeable staff, hands down. They will
spend as much time as needed to talk with the customer. Prices are a bit
higher, but worth it for me because I won't be paying extra for
medications later on.

LFS 2 - Lots of freshwater tanks, huge selection of cichlids. Always
dead fish all over the place, a good 10% of the tanks at any given time
being medicated and all of them could use a good cleaning. Every time
I've gotten fish from there, they either die or become sick. Good
prices, but not worth it IMO.

BORG 1 - Once bought goldfish for my pond, most died but there's a
couple still left over after several years. Out of principle I won't buy
fish from them, I go there to get litter for the cats and some canned
food my LPS doesn't carry (darn cats, why won't they eat the
super-premium food?).

BORG 2 - On emergencies, I've bought medications from them. Way cheaper
than LFS. Everything else is more expensive than BORG 1.

OFS (On-line Fish Store) 1 - Love it! Get bulk fish and plant food from
them all the time. Great prices and good service. Wouldn't buy CF bulbs
anywhere else.

OFS 2 - Ditto.

Bottomline: I'll buy as much as I can from LFS, avoid BORG if I can, and
get the expensive stuff at OFS. If I were rich, I'd probably just buy it
all at the LFS.


--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Danya]

this sounds like fun...

LFS 1--great selection, most tanks are very clean, and fish appear
healthy. large freshwater selection, a couple different marine types,
and even marine invertebrates (i love the bubble coral). i've
boughten a total of 12 fish there and not 1 is dead...yet. sometimes
hard to get help because the younger girls seem to be a bit lazy.
they don't know that much, but seem to know which fish get along with
others in community tanks. not many fish supplies though (i.e.
medications, foods, ornaments)

LFS 2--finally visited this place just last week. nice and clean.
have their aquariums in a sort of "back room" that is dark with just
the aquarium lights on. good variety of freshwater fish. again, not
that many fish supplies, especially when it comes to fake plants.

LFS 3--i would never ever buy from this place. dead fish in the
tanks, angel with the worst case of fin rot ever and crickets jumping
all about. they have a nice selection of fish supplies though...

BORG 1--i've boughten quite a few fish from here and i'd say probably
just about half of what i've bought altogether have died. 1 died
before i had it even 24 hours! okay selection, and nice helpful
people. also, great selection of fish supplies!

BORG 2--okay selection of freshwater fish. clean tanks. and great
selection of fish supplies. bought 1 fish from this place then
realized it was a "painted" fish. :(

all in all i'd say LFS 1 is my favorite fish store to go to. they
have so many fish, it's just fun to walk around and look at all of
them.

[Aquarijen]

> In the end, I prefer LFS shopping over BORGs. The LFS will usually have a
> greater variety beyond the normal stuff and if you feel out a good one,
> they
> also have greater experience to answer your questions. Overall, most
> people
> in an LFS are genuinely interested in fish rather than their counterparts
> typically found in the BORGs who just needed a job.
>
> Justin


But a BORG sometimes gives you a rather expensive fish for very litle. I
got a fire eel from a kid at a BORG for $3 - Neither of us knew what he was.
I did research on the internet and am getting a 135 gallon tank coming in
this weekend (bought second or third hand).

I called a brand new LFS here in my small town. The owners had no fish yet
(but had a shipment coming in from Florida this week and will officially
open next week, but they have reptiles now and will let me come in and shop.
They were very excited). I asked them about the fire eel. It seems this
eel is somewhat a litmus test for aquarium people. He said it was very
aggressive and should be kept with Lake Malawi Cichlids. Ouch. I don't
think so - I have read in many places that he should not be kept with fish
smaller than himself, but *not* with aggressive Cichlids...

Turns out the store will only be stocking cichlids in their freshwater
section.

When I go to a BORG, I don't expect them to know anything. I also don't
expect to pay much. When I go to a LFS, I want them to be more knowledgable
and for that I would pay more. But I don't know about this new place. They
would have put my eel in danger. I don't care about the other fish. I care
about my eel and I'll be going with larger not-so-aggressive fish in his
tank with the only cichlids being angles or fairy or lemons.

Sorry to ramble so... It just struck me as disconcerting to have a brand
new pet shop already turn me off like that.

Be Well,
Jen