Black Discoloration?

[E Riehle]

I'm new to this group AND to maintaining an aquarium, so pardon my
intense ignorance.

I have a small five gallon tank with two fish, one a fantail goldfish,
about 1". We had a pH spike a few weeks after setting up the tank, and
before I was educated about toxins in the water by the local "expert",
I had successfully killed a number of additional fish, including an
iridescent shark and another smaller calico fantail, I'm assuming from
the pH shock. The two original fish not only survived, but seemed very
healthy and active through it all, with one exception; The fantail
developed what appeared to be black "bruises" inside her gills and a
black ring around her lips. Can I assume this to be a chemical burn?
Everyone I've talked to had never heard of such an eventuality, and
after a slow treatment of sodium biphosphate the black has faded
almost completely. She now, however, is losing her color altogether,
though she's still otherwise as active as ever...The pH is back to a
normal level (7.0).

I started the aquarium with bottled spring water, as our tap water is
VERY high in iron and run through a softener. Today I drove to a local
lake and collected three gallons of water, tested it with a Jungle
Labs freshwater test strip--Everything tested "ideal" with the
exception of a slightly high pH, which I treated before putting in the
tank. I replaced approx. 2 gallons.

Water temp. is kept at 75 deg. F...

Anyone with experience or knowledge concerning black discoloration
please respond...and thanks.

[Billy]

"E Riehle" > wrote in message
om...
| I'm new to this group AND to maintaining an aquarium, so pardon my
| intense ignorance.
|


My thoughts tossed out in random order...the way they are created,
really<g>........

A five gallon tank is too small for most goldfish, much less goldfish
*and* other fish. The ecosystem is just too small to support it.

Have you read http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html ???
Awesome place for the noob aquarist.

Tell us more about your tank setup. Filtration is provided by what?

75 degrees may be a bit cool for tropicals like the iri shark.

What are the water parameters, such as ammonia and nitrate?

Did you let the tank "cycle" before adding all those fish?
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

Mixing goldfish with tropicals is a recipe for disaster in most
cases. Goldies are, (no offense to goldie fans) filthy creatures
compared to tropical fish. They are little poop machines, causing
water quality that doesn't bother them, but is rough for more
delicate fish.

Are you sure the discoloration was black and not dark purple?? Sounds
like a symptom of bad water quality. (slow asphyxiation)

Lake water is VERY risky, you could be introducing millions of
bacteria and parasites that your tank-raised fish have never
encountered. You could invest in a Reverse-Osmosis unit, or buy
drinking water at the grocery.


Summary, you've tried to move too fast, with too many fish, in too
small a tank.



best of luck...keep posting.....hope this helps a bit....ask if you
need claification....:)


billy



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[Sue]

Forget messing with the pH - goldies are pretty toterant of high levels but
can't stand sudden changes.
The black discolouration is Ammonia burn - your tank is too small to
properly cycle.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling.htm

Goldies should have at least ten gallons of filtered water each to thrive.


> Anyone with experience or knowledge concerning black discoloration
> please respond...and thanks.

[E Riehle]

"Billy" > wrote in message >...
> "E Riehle" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> A five gallon tank is too small for most goldfish, much less goldfish
> *and* other fish. The ecosystem is just too small to support it.

Yes, I'm learning this...I actually did the 'net research AFTER
posting here. My wife was under the impression that a fishtank would
be a nice, low-maintenance way to introduce the kids to taking care of
pets...The panic button was pushed this morning and hence the
back-asswards approach to getting quick info...

> Have you read http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html ???
> Awesome place for the noob aquarist.

Not yet, but I've added more than a dozen bookmarks since the initial
post. The faq is an inevitable eventuality.

> Tell us more about your tank setup. Filtration is provided by what?

Well, like I said, an insufficient five gallon acrylic tank with an
Aqua-Tech 5-15 gal. power filter (activated carbon), an Acura 1000
50-watt heater, assorted synthetic plants, rock features, and an
air-pump driven cutsey-thing the wife just had to have...Oh, and a few
pounds of colored arregate I wish we'd thought twice about...As much
as we rinsed the stuff the color still wants to bleed a bit...

> 75 degrees may be a bit cool for tropicals like the iri shark.

Yep, and I was told this, but was also told that 75-79 degs would be a
happy medium for mixing species, that 75 was more than tolerable for
the shark...When the temp was at 79 degs, the other fish spent a lot
of time at the top of the water, presumably looking for air...(?)

> What are the water parameters, such as ammonia and nitrate?

Ammonia I don't know, but the nitrate level (which actually triggered
the mad dash for answers) was off the color-coded scale (over 200
ppm), prompting me to check the lake water...Nitrites were also off
the scale. Is there a simple test for ammonia? And besides
water-changes, a neutralizer?

> Did you let the tank "cycle" before adding all those fish?
> http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

This is now part of the new plan. Though we thought we had an easy
pastime ahead of us in keeping fish, and are learning otherwise as we
go, we've found that we really LIKE having a tank. The problem is the
fish funerals, and if you have kids under 5 you'll understand...So
after some more reading and asking stupid questions I think we'll not
only keep the current tank but get a larger one as well.

> Mixing goldfish with tropicals is a recipe for disaster in most
> cases. Goldies are, (no offense to goldie fans) filthy creatures
> compared to tropical fish. They are little poop machines, causing
> water quality that doesn't bother them, but is rough for more
> delicate fish.

Roger that. I'm assuming that the pH spike had something to do with GF
feces festering in the aggregate (the fish were originally overfed out
of sheer ignorance). The more exotic varieties we'd like will inhabit
a separate environment when the time comes...

> Are you sure the discoloration was black and not dark purple?? Sounds
> like a symptom of bad water quality. (slow asphyxiation)

Nope, black. It is virtually gone now, leading me to believe that what
I've been reading is true about the healing process of a chemical
burn.

> Lake water is VERY risky, you could be introducing millions of
> bacteria and parasites that your tank-raised fish have never
> encountered. You could invest in a Reverse-Osmosis unit, or buy
> drinking water at the grocery.

The lake this water came from may not be the perfect choice, but I
actually read up on the quality at a DNR website, and it seems to pass
their muster. I understand about the bacteria and parasites, but I
also remember keeping a pair of black moors thriving for years when I
was a small kid by changing the LAKE water weekly. The lake in
question is the second in a chain of creek-fed lakes and has very
little development and no farmland abbutting it. I was only going to
use it if it passed the test-strip, which it did. We had used bottled
spring water, which apparently is NONE too clean itself...Now that the
deed is done, however, we'll have to wait and see, at least for one
more day...Can you recommend the BEST water source?

> Summary, you've tried to move too fast, with too many fish, in too
> small a tank.

They didn't mention the learning curve at the petstore, of course
they're SELLING stuff, now aren't they? Funny they should tell me that
I could put as many as 10 fish in that tank...

> best of luck...keep posting.....hope this helps a bit....ask if you
> need claification....:)
> billy
>

Thanks, it does, and I will.

Eric

[Billy]

"E Riehle" > wrote in message
om...
|
| > Have you read http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html ???
| > Awesome place for the noob aquarist.
|
| Not yet, but I've added more than a dozen bookmarks since the
initial
| post. The faq is an inevitable eventuality.

I'd put the Krib FAQ at the top of your list. JMO. I *still* refer to
it now and then.
|

|
| Ammonia I don't know, but the nitrate level (which actually
triggered
| the mad dash for answers) was off the color-coded scale (over 200
| ppm), prompting me to check the lake water...Nitrites were also off
| the scale. Is there a simple test for ammonia? And besides
| water-changes, a neutralizer?
|

There *are* chems that will neutralize ammonia, nitrite, and such,
(Amquell Plus) http://www.novalek.com/korgd28.htm but I'm a bit of a
purist. I avoid putting chems in my tank if there is a
naturally-occuring process to take it's place. Keeping the nitrogen
cycle going takes care of ammonia and nitrite, having live plants or
doing partial water changes on a regular schedule takes care of
nitrate. As far as an easier ammonia test, I have used 3 different
brands, and they all were pretty simple; fill vial with water, add 3
drops of stuff, look at color. There *are* little indicators that you
can buy at many LFS's that you stick on the glass inside the tank,
and are supposed to tell you if ammonia is rising.



| more day...Can you recommend the BEST water source?

Sure, already did, a Reverse-Osmosis\Deionization (RO\DI)
http://www.aquaticreefsystems.com/About_Reverse_Osmosis.htm unit.
They cost 150 bucks on up, but I've never regretted it, but I'm into
marine aquaria as well, and it's almost a nessecity. With freshwater,
it's not so much. Usually I'd tell you to use tapwater and treat it
for chlorine and chloramine, (amquel+ is good for this, one of the
only times I use chems) but from what you said in your OP that may
not be an option. Going with bottled water, or the filtered water you
can get from the machines at the grocery should be fine and spiffy.

|
|
| They didn't mention the learning curve at the petstore, of course
| they're SELLING stuff, now aren't they? Funny they should tell me
that
| I could put as many as 10 fish in that tank...
|

Many people never seem to grasp that it's not wise to get all your
advice from the person who wants you to buy stuff from them...it's
like asking the car salesman if you think the car he's trying to sell
you is a good deal. Not to say you can't get good advice from a
quality LFS, just temper it with some common sense.

As far as the advice about ten fish in the tank....that's a
*******ization of the freshwater rule of thumb, which is "one inch of
fish per gallon". Meaning, a ten gallon tank *could* have 10 one-inch
fish. This rule assumes many things however, like an established
filter with a good colony of nitrifying bacteria, that the fish were
added gradually, and the filtration unit moves enough water to
compensate for the load. Goldfish do not fit this model at all. I'd
say a fantail should have at least 5 gallons to itself, others will
say 10.


Sounds like you're doing a good job of fixing your errors, and they
were made due to simple misinfo, which is reversible.<bg>
--
---
billy
AIM: gordygord2003
MSN:

"Life's tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."
-- John Wayne


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[E Riehle]

"Billy" > wrote in message >...

> Many people never seem to grasp that it's not wise to get all your
> advice from the person who wants you to buy stuff from them...it's
> like asking the car salesman if you think the car he's trying to sell
> you is a good deal. Not to say you can't get good advice from a
> quality LFS, just temper it with some common sense.

Actually, the advice came from three separate sources, one a friend
who has kept an aquarium for years (though hers is a 100 gallon
behemoth, and I don't think she's ever had one smaller). The girl at
the LFS is also a large-tank owner, and likely has a utopian idea of
what a small tank environment is like...

> As far as the advice about ten fish in the tank....that's a
> *******ization of the freshwater rule of thumb, which is "one inch of
> fish per gallon". Meaning, a ten gallon tank *could* have 10 one-inch
> fish. This rule assumes many things however, like an established
> filter with a good colony of nitrifying bacteria, that the fish were
> added gradually, and the filtration unit moves enough water to
> compensate for the load. Goldfish do not fit this model at all. I'd
> say a fantail should have at least 5 gallons to itself, others will
> say 10.

Adjustments will be made accordingly, and I thank you and Sue for your
input. I would someday like to delve into the world of a marine tank
(I love anenomes and clownfish), but I have some freshwater fish to
concentrate on for the present...