Hard acid water - newbie needs advice

[NetMax]

"OldTownSta" > wrote in message
...
> I've come back into the fishkeeping hobby I enjoyed as a kid. All this
water
> chemistry stuff is new to me -- back then we tracked ph & temperature &
that
> was about it.

Welcome back.

> My tanks seem to be doing fairly well (mixtures of fresh water
tropicals), but
> I'm trying to figure out the chemistry & tweak it if needed. My tanks
tend to
> read as follows:
>
> Nitrate: 80 (I realize that's a bit high; using 25% water changes
weekly.)
> Nitrite: 0
> Hardness: 150 (sometimes up to 300) - too high?
> Alkalinity (kh): 40 (Not sure what this is, but understand it should
be
> higher?)
> pH: usually around 6.2. For my mixture of fish, I'd prefer closer to
7.0.
> Ammonia: One of those little ammonia gauges always reads 0.

In order to comment intelligently, I'd need to know what the gH, kH and
pH of your tap water is after standing 24 hours in a glass. Your numbers
are a bit out of sync with each other, so to help determine the source of
influence, you need to compare the readings to your source (tap) water.
On there own, your kH is a bit low and everything else is reasonable.
Whether your gH is high or low depends on what fish you are keeping,
whether they were born in this, are they acclimated and whether your gH
is constant (or changes with water changes, which I don't think is your
case). Without knowing for sure, I suspect you are suffering from a bit
of old tank syndrome. I'd expect your kH/pH to have been higher,
otherwise.

> I'm testing with that combination test strip, so not very
sophisticated, I'm
> sure.
>
> Any suggestions? Or should I leave well enough alone?

Leave it alone, and try to figure out what is happening first. Removing
or controlling the source of your acidification would imo, be your first
step.

> From what I've read, I was tempted to add limestone or a bag of coral
sand to
> the filter to gradually increase the pH, but understand that would also
> increase the hardness. I'd prefer to add a long term buffer like that
to the
> filter rather than fiddle with adding powders & potions on an ongoing
basis if
> possible.

After establishing root cause (above) then adding a natural source of
calcium carbonates is a good idea, but *not* adding it before you figure
out what is happening.

> Speaking of powders & potions, when I first started, I tried one of
those pH
> Neutral powders that was sposed to level off pH at 7.0. It noted not
to use
> with live plants, so I discontinued early on, even tho I couldn't tell
any
> problems with plants. Anyone know how bad that stuff is on plants, and
if it
> would be adviseable in my situation?

pH buffers should generally be avoided for various reasons, which I could
list if you were really interested.

ps: *alkalinity* is the same as kH, carbonate hardness, 'buffer', and for
all practical purposes - temporary hardness. When water goes *alkaline*,
it is going 'base', above 7.0pH, the opposite of acidic. Alkalinity and
alkaline are different words and meanings. This confusion was probably
brought to us by the same people who thought to name two different
nitrifying bacteria, nitrite and nitrate.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> Thanks in advance! -- Jim
>

[OldTownSta]

I've come back into the fishkeeping hobby I enjoyed as a kid. All this water
chemistry stuff is new to me -- back then we tracked ph & temperature & that
was about it.

My tanks seem to be doing fairly well (mixtures of fresh water tropicals), but
I'm trying to figure out the chemistry & tweak it if needed. My tanks tend to
read as follows:

Nitrate: 80 (I realize that's a bit high; using 25% water changes weekly.)
Nitrite: 0
Hardness: 150 (sometimes up to 300) - too high?
Alkalinity (kh): 40 (Not sure what this is, but understand it should be
higher?)
pH: usually around 6.2. For my mixture of fish, I'd prefer closer to 7.0.
Ammonia: One of those little ammonia gauges always reads 0.

I'm testing with that combination test strip, so not very sophisticated, I'm
sure.

Any suggestions? Or should I leave well enough alone?

From what I've read, I was tempted to add limestone or a bag of coral sand to
the filter to gradually increase the pH, but understand that would also
increase the hardness. I'd prefer to add a long term buffer like that to the
filter rather than fiddle with adding powders & potions on an ongoing basis if
possible.

Speaking of powders & potions, when I first started, I tried one of those pH
Neutral powders that was sposed to level off pH at 7.0. It noted not to use
with live plants, so I discontinued early on, even tho I couldn't tell any
problems with plants. Anyone know how bad that stuff is on plants, and if it
would be adviseable in my situation?

Thanks in advance! -- Jim

[RedForeman ©®]

|| I've come back into the fishkeeping hobby I enjoyed as a kid. All
|| this water chemistry stuff is new to me -- back then we tracked ph &
|| temperature & that was about it.
||
|| My tanks seem to be doing fairly well (mixtures of fresh water
|| tropicals), but I'm trying to figure out the chemistry & tweak it if
|| needed. My tanks tend to read as follows:
||
|| Nitrate: 80 (I realize that's a bit high; using 25% water changes
|| weekly.) Nitrite: 0
|| Hardness: 150 (sometimes up to 300) - too high?
|| Alkalinity (kh): 40 (Not sure what this is, but understand it
|| should be higher?)
|| pH: usually around 6.2. For my mixture of fish, I'd prefer closer
|| to 7.0. Ammonia: One of those little ammonia gauges always reads 0.
||
|| I'm testing with that combination test strip, so not very
|| sophisticated, I'm sure.
||
|| Any suggestions? Or should I leave well enough alone?
||
|| From what I've read, I was tempted to add limestone or a bag of
|| coral sand to the filter to gradually increase the pH, but
|| understand that would also increase the hardness. I'd prefer to add
|| a long term buffer like that to the filter rather than fiddle with
|| adding powders & potions on an ongoing basis if possible.
||
|| Speaking of powders & potions, when I first started, I tried one of
|| those pH Neutral powders that was sposed to level off pH at 7.0. It
|| noted not to use with live plants, so I discontinued early on, even
|| tho I couldn't tell any problems with plants. Anyone know how bad
|| that stuff is on plants, and if it would be adviseable in my
|| situation?
||
|| Thanks in advance! -- Jim

First, take this with a grain of salt, because there are others who know
more and might correct or add to what I say... which is what I'm hoping...

First, avoid any chemicals that buffer your water, such as the neutral pH
powders...

Second, your 6.2 is a bit on the low, but still average for most fish... if
you bought them locally, they're probably from the same water unless you're
on a well system....

Last but not least, crushed coral would do wonders for your tank over
time... nothing quick and dramatic about it, but it would help keep
stability in your pH and kH, which is always good....

btw, your hardness fluctuated because of the powder and residuals left in
water after waterchanges.. you'll be ok to avoid the powder...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[Sue]

I discovered at a trade show yesterday that one brand of test kits has
erroneously got kH marked at alkalinity!
These are probably what you are using.
So you have GH ( TH) 150 ppm & kH of 40 ppm.

Your ph should be higher with this much buffer present so there is something
acidifying your tank.
What does your tapwater measure?
What decor?

Sue

[OldTownSta]

Thanks Red & Sue for your helpful responses!

>Your ph should be higher with this much buffer present so there is something
>acidifying your tank.<

I probably wasn't clear in my original posting. It's been 7 months since I
used any buffer, (and then only for a couple weeks) and readings have been
pretty consistant in these ranges since then.

I guess my bottom line question is should I try to fiddle with my readings (and
if so, how?) or leave well enough alone?

>What does your tapwater measure?
>What decor?<

Not sure on the tapwater measure. Main 120 gal tank has a large piece of
Malaysian driftwood as a centerpiece, which I assume would lower pH, and I
would expect would soften the water a bit? (If I understand correctly?) It's
been in place for about 6 months.

However, the pH in my 55 gal & 3 - 20's runs a bit acid too, without driftwood,
just sandstone & slate rocks, plants, plastic plants & gravel, so I don' think
it's all due to the driftwood. Also, the wood isn't softening the water as
much as I'd expect, (if the hardness is actually a problem?)

>btw, your hardness fluctuated because of the powder and residuals left in
>water after waterchanges.. you'll be ok to avoid the powder...
>

I'll take your advice to avoid the powder, but it's been months since I
experimented with it. Water has continuously tested hard (150 to 300).

>I discovered at a trade show yesterday that one brand of test kits has
>erroneously got kH marked at alkalinity!<

Yep, I think that must be the test kit I have. It lists this measure as both
"kH" & "alkalinity", which I didn't understand, since I thought the pH was the
measure of alkalinity/acidity. What is kH? My test kit shows 120 to 180 as
ideal for freshwater tropicals. Does my tank reading of kH 40 present any
serious problem, and if so, what can be done about it?

>Last but not least, crushed coral would do wonders for your tank over
>time... nothing quick and dramatic about it, but it would help keep
>stability in your pH and kH, which is always good....<

That appeals to me. Should I worry about the crushed coral further increasing
the hardness of the water?

Thanks again! - Jim

[Sue]

The kH - carbonate hardness is a measure of your buffer! It can be from many
sources not just what you've added.
This site may help - http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm

Th or GH is a measure of disolved ions in the water .
pH is acid/alkali

Driftwood can release tannic acid ( + others) which will lower pH. It won't
soften the water though.
HTH
Sue

[Peter Ashby]

Sue > wrote:

> The kH - carbonate hardness is a measure of your buffer! It can be from many
> sources not just what you've added.
> This site may help - http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm
>
> Th or GH is a measure of disolved ions in the water .
> pH is acid/alkali
>
> Driftwood can release tannic acid ( + others) which will lower pH. It won't
> soften the water though.
> HTH
> Sue

Tannic acids can soften the water, much the same was as the tannic acids
from peats do. They chelate ions (grab them) and not let go causing them
to precipitate out of solution. That's the basis of the peat in the old
nylon trick. Of course modern softening pillows use ion exchange resins
but your bogwood will (while newish) help to soften the tank.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[Toni]

"OldTownSta" > wrote in message
...
> Any suggestions? Or should I leave well enough alone?
>


A very helpful first step would be to draw out some tapwater and let it
simply sit out overnight while being aerated, then do a full range of tests
on it. It helps a great deal to know what you're starting with.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

[OldTownSta]

Thanks for the responses & references! I think I'm slowly but surely educating
myself on this with your considerable help.

As NetMax & Toni suggested, I tested my tap water after sitting overnight,
along with my two larger tanks, this morning. The Big Tank 120 gal has
driftwood decor, the Medium Tank 55 gal does not. Here's my results:

Nitrite: Tap - 0; both tanks - 80 (due for their weekly water change
tommorrow)

Nitrate: Tap & both tanks - 0

GH hardness: Tap & both tanks - 150

KH: Tap - 40; Big Tank - 40; Med Tank - 20

pH: Tap - 6.8; Big tank - 6.4; Med Tank - 6.2

Test kit is Jungle Lab multi-test strips.

Advise, please. My preliminary conclusions, based on your advice & references:

* Generally things seem to be ok (at least no immediate crisis?).
* The KH seems quite low, but I'm not sure if it's a problem?
* My water is hard, but that apparently is not much of a problem.
* pH is within acceptable range from most fish, a bit acid but probably not a
problem.
* I could raise the pH a bit by adding a bit of limestone decor or bags of
crushed coral, but doesn't seem necessary. Also, I'm not yet clear on whether
that would increase hardness, or if increased hardness would be a problem.
* I won't be tempted to use quick buffering powders.

Did I get it right? Am I missing anything?

Here's more supplemental info than you probably want to know:

120 GALLON TANK - malaysian driftwood, sandstone, gravel, live & plastic plant
decor.
Two large dual chamber/dual wheel Penguin filters.
About 75 inches of fish, including:
- 5 clown loaches
- 9 neon tetras
- 4 killifish (pair Rachovis, pair panchax)
- Lesbian breeding pair of angels (infertile batches of eggs, about once a
month)
- 3 homegrown mollies
- one 7" pl*co
- one 5" black ghost knife
- dojo loach
- cory
- Raphael cat (never seen, but there)
- Upside down cat (seldom seen)
- pictus cat
- a few stunted baby swordtails (kept so I'll have something smaller than neons
for the angels or bgk to eat to let me know they've outgrown this tank - so far
so good, no losses.)
- 2 glass cats*
- 2 homegrown zebras*
- 1 hatchet fish*
- 2 Boesmani rainbows*

* I know these last several species would be happier in schools, but these
guys are survivors of earlier less successful set ups, & I don't intend to
continue keeping those species once these guys have had their runs.

55 GALLON TANK: Slate, plastic(?) artificial driftwood, gravel, live &
plastic plant decor.
One dual chamber dual biowheel Penguin filter.
Primarly a grow-out tank for livebearers, (guppies, mollies & swordtails), and
probably a bit overloaded. Estimate maybe 50 juveniles, 10 adults various
livebearers; plus a pair of Chinese sucker fish.

ALSO: A pair of Kribensis that showed early signs of wanting to breed, but
never came thru. They have been shuttled through both tanks above, plus a 20
gal breeding tank w/ no success (they got along w/ eachother best in the large
community tank, in the 20 w/ a couple dither fish they don't get along at all).
I use another 20 gal for livebearer babies, and another 20 for a quarantine
tank.

FOOD: Morning Tetramin flakes & frozen brine shrimp. Evening Tet flakes &
frozen bloodworms. Supplemented a couple times a week w/ zuchinni slice, a
boiled shrimp, & algae disks or spirulina pellets. Occassionally frozen
beefheart & frozen daphnia. Rarely frozen tubifex.

WATER CHANGES: about 25%, usually weekly, occassionally missed. Python from
tap w/ Prime added. Temperature on tanks kept at 76-78 F. I vacuum the gravel
when siphoning out for water changes.

RECENT PROBLEMS: Ich showed up on the clown loaches just after they were
bought about a month ago (not long enough in quarantine tank). Successfully
treated over 2 week period with malach. green / formalin (1/2 strength due to
loaches, corie, & neons), followed by carbon added to filters. No losses from
ich or treatment.
A couple hatchet fish died this week w/ localized swellings in abdomen (no
porcupining of scales tho).

Sorry to go on so long, but I really appreciate the willingness of the folks on
this forum to help & realize that full info on my tanks may be useful. Thanks
again! - Jim

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

OldTownSta wrote:
>
> Nitrite: Tap - 0; both tanks - 80 (due for their weekly water change
> tommorrow)
>
> Nitrate: Tap & both tanks - 0

Looks like you are not completely cycled yet. The ammonium gets
converted to nitrite, but further processing to nitrate (note the
different spelling!) does not happen. Both ammonium and nitrite are
toxic for fish, while nitrate is - within reason - harmless.

One quick solution would be to add live plants to the tank, as they take
the ammonium as fertiliser. Or do more frequent water changes.

[OldTownSta]

wrote:

>OldTownSta wrote:
>>
>> Nitrite: Tap - 0; both tanks - 80 (due for their weekly water change
>> tommorrow)
>>
>> Nitrate: Tap & both tanks - 0
>
>Looks like you are not completely cycled yet. The ammonium gets
>converted to nitrite, but further processing to nitrate (note the
>different spelling!) does not happen. Both ammonium and nitrite are
>toxic for fish, while nitrate is - within reason - harmless.
>

Doh! My apologies, especially after you took the time to wade thru my lengthy
response & offer helpful advice.

I switched the numbers in my posting. I SHOULD have posted:

NitrAte: Tap - 0; both tanks - 80 (due for their weekly water change
tommorrow)

Nitrite: Tap & both tanks - 0

I guess that's better? I mentioned at the start of this thread, I'm still
trying to sort this water chem stuff out, & obviously I'm still learning.

My understanding is that the NitrAte readings of 80 in the tanks are a bit
high, but not a major problem? Thanks for the response! - Jim

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

OldTownSta wrote:

> NitrAte: Tap - 0; both tanks - 80 (due for their weekly water change
> tommorrow)
>
> Nitrite: Tap & both tanks - 0
>
> I guess that's better? I mentioned at the start of this thread, I'm still
> trying to sort this water chem stuff out, & obviously I'm still learning.
>
> My understanding is that the NitrAte readings of 80 in the tanks are a bit
> high, but not a major problem? Thanks for the response! - Jim

Yes it is a bit high. The advice however is the same: More frequent
water changes or life plants.

[Dick]

On 21 Sep 2004 15:51:18 GMT, (OldTownSta) wrote:

>I've come back into the fishkeeping hobby I enjoyed as a kid. All this water
>chemistry stuff is new to me -- back then we tracked ph & temperature & that
>was about it.
>
>My tanks seem to be doing fairly well (mixtures of fresh water tropicals), but
>I'm trying to figure out the chemistry & tweak it if needed. My tanks tend to
>read as follows:
>
>Nitrate: 80 (I realize that's a bit high; using 25% water changes weekly.)
>Nitrite: 0
>Hardness: 150 (sometimes up to 300) - too high?
>Alkalinity (kh): 40 (Not sure what this is, but understand it should be
>higher?)
>pH: usually around 6.2. For my mixture of fish, I'd prefer closer to 7.0.
>Ammonia: One of those little ammonia gauges always reads 0.
>
>I'm testing with that combination test strip, so not very sophisticated, I'm
>sure.
>
>Any suggestions? Or should I leave well enough alone?
>
>From what I've read, I was tempted to add limestone or a bag of coral sand to
>the filter to gradually increase the pH, but understand that would also
>increase the hardness. I'd prefer to add a long term buffer like that to the
>filter rather than fiddle with adding powders & potions on an ongoing basis if
>possible.
>
>Speaking of powders & potions, when I first started, I tried one of those pH
>Neutral powders that was sposed to level off pH at 7.0. It noted not to use
>with live plants, so I discontinued early on, even tho I couldn't tell any
>problems with plants. Anyone know how bad that stuff is on plants, and if it
>would be adviseable in my situation?
>
>Thanks in advance! -- Jim

Check to see what range of pH is acceptable for the fish you have in
your tank. My tap water pH is 7.8. I tried adjusting the water and
managed to kill several fish when the pH went way acid within minutes.
I avoid all chemical alteration of my tap water. I make two 20% water
changes weekly in my 5 tanks using municipal water from the tap.
Unless you are devoted to making chemical adjustments for the rest of
your life, adjust the tank population to fit your water.

I even quit using charcoal (for 4 months so far). I have robust low
light plants and 15 varieties of fish. My 75 gallon tank has been
setup for two years. In my opinion regular weekly water changes is by
far the best thing to use your time maintaining fresh water tanks.

dick