Pebbles or Sand ?

[2pods]

I'm setting up a Jewul Rio 400 for goldfish/shubs.
would I be better with pebbles or sand ?

I'm not going to use a UGF, and so far have only the inbuilt Jewul Jumbo
filter.

The only pebbles I've seen in LFS are small coloured ones, and the bags of
sand seem very small (as tank is 400l ).

Our pond has rocks and large pebbles from the local garden centre, but If I
use stuff like that for the tank, I'd worry about the weight on the stand.

Any good sources of supply in the UK ?

Peter

[sophie]

In message >, 2pods
> writes
>I'm setting up a Jewul Rio 400 for goldfish/shubs.
>would I be better with pebbles or sand ?
>
>I'm not going to use a UGF, and so far have only the inbuilt Jewul Jumbo
>filter.
>
>The only pebbles I've seen in LFS are small coloured ones, and the bags of
>sand seem very small (as tank is 400l ).
>
>Our pond has rocks and large pebbles from the local garden centre, but If I
>use stuff like that for the tank, I'd worry about the weight on the stand.

the water will weigh an awful lot more than they do. goldfish tend to
suck gravel up and spit it out and apparently it can get stuck in their
mouths. and all that yeurch that comes out of the goldfish ends up in
the gravel, so cleaning it is an ongoing task.
sand. I have sand but I'm aware that most people with gf _don't_ and I
have it largely for the benefit of weather loach who like it. I also
haven't had it long and am pretty much a newbie, so I couldn't advise
you on it yet one way or another (though so far I like it).
lots of people who have goldfish advocate a barebottomed tank with the
odd rock/pebble/plant in pot.
I think it's probably your call...
>
>Any good sources of supply in the UK ?

a decent aquatics shop ;-)

where are you?
--
sophie

[Geezer From The Freezer]

2pods wrote:
>
> I'm setting up a Jewul Rio 400 for goldfish/shubs.
> would I be better with pebbles or sand ?
>
> I'm not going to use a UGF, and so far have only the inbuilt Jewul Jumbo
> filter.
>
> The only pebbles I've seen in LFS are small coloured ones, and the bags of
> sand seem very small (as tank is 400l ).
>
> Our pond has rocks and large pebbles from the local garden centre, but If I
> use stuff like that for the tank, I'd worry about the weight on the stand.
>
> Any good sources of supply in the UK ?
>
> Peter

Go for pebbles mate, and not too many.

Good sources for supplies? www.aquariumsuperstore.co.uk cheap as chips for
equipment!!

[2pods]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, 2pods
> > writes
..
> sand. I have sand but I'm aware that most people with gf _don't_ and I
> have it largely for the benefit of weather loach who like it. I also
> haven't had it long and am pretty much a newbie, so I couldn't advise you
> on it yet one way or another (though so far I like it).
> lots of people who have goldfish advocate a barebottomed tank with the odd
> rock/pebble/plant in pot.
> I think it's probably your call...
>>
>>Any good sources of supply in the UK ?
>
> a decent aquatics shop ;-)
>
> where are you?
> --
> sophie

West of Scotland
I don't think the mail order thing will work for that much sand or pebbles.

Postage would be mega ;-)

Peter

[2pods]

> Go for pebbles mate, and not too many.
>
> Good sources for supplies? www.aquariumsuperstore.co.uk cheap as chips for
> equipment!!

Homebase and cornish cobbles it is then.
Just as well it's 10% day on friday ;-)

Peter

[John Cuthbertson]

Hi Peter,

West of Scotland? Hmm. Are you near Glasgow? When I lived in Rutherglen
(now in California) there was a great pet store in Howard St near the St
Enoch Center. There was also a local guy just off of Rutherglen Main St
who was also pretty good. I also used to pop in to the PetsMart on East
Kilbride Road. They were reasonably cheap IIRC.

If you are not going to have an undergravel filter or rooted plants then
you can get away with a largish size of gravel or smallish pebble. I used
to use black mexican river rock that were around 2 inches round but fairly
flat - I got them from the local B+Q for use in a fountain.

Goldfish are relatively messy and the less gravel you have to move when
doing water changes means a lot more muck is siphoned out the tank.
Goldfish also like to root about in the sand/gravel and the tank can get
murky if you use sand. Another danger is that the sand may clog
the media of whatever filter you are planning to use.

I eventually gave up on goldfish and went with a river tank with native
species: rudd, roach, bitterling, dace, rainbow dace, and gudgeon.

John Cuthbertson

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:06:29 +0100, 2pods wrote:

>
> "sophie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In message >, 2pods
>> > writes
> .
>> sand. I have sand but I'm aware that most people with gf _don't_ and I
>> have it largely for the benefit of weather loach who like it. I also
>> haven't had it long and am pretty much a newbie, so I couldn't advise you
>> on it yet one way or another (though so far I like it).
>> lots of people who have goldfish advocate a barebottomed tank with the odd
>> rock/pebble/plant in pot.
>> I think it's probably your call...
>>>
>>>Any good sources of supply in the UK ?
>>
>> a decent aquatics shop ;-)
>>
>> where are you?
>> --
>> sophie
>
> West of Scotland
> I don't think the mail order thing will work for that much sand or pebbles.
>
> Postage would be mega ;-)
>
> Peter

[2pods]

"John Cuthbertson" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Peter,
>
> West of Scotland? Hmm. Are you near Glasgow? When I lived in Rutherglen
> (now in California) there was a great pet store in Howard St near the St
> Enoch Center. There was also a local guy just off of Rutherglen Main St
> who was also pretty good. I also used to pop in to the PetsMart on East
> Kilbride Road. They were reasonably cheap IIRC.
>
> If you are not going to have an undergravel filter or rooted plants then
> you can get away with a largish size of gravel or smallish pebble. I used
> to use black mexican river rock that were around 2 inches round but fairly
> flat - I got them from the local B+Q for use in a fountain.
>
> Goldfish are relatively messy and the less gravel you have to move when
> doing water changes means a lot more muck is siphoned out the tank.
> Goldfish also like to root about in the sand/gravel and the tank can get
> murky if you use sand. Another danger is that the sand may clog
> the media of whatever filter you are planning to use.
>
> I eventually gave up on goldfish and went with a river tank with native
> species: rudd, roach, bitterling, dace, rainbow dace, and gudgeon.
>
> John Cuthbertson
>
Hi John

I'm 20 odd miles west in Gourock.
As you would probably guess, it's raining but at least it's too cold for
midgies :-)

I'm going to keep the plants in small pond plant pots.
Obviously I'd like to use nice big flat rocks a la my pond, bought I'm
worried about the weight.

What size of pebble am I looking at ? The stuff I used for the pond was
"Cornish Cobbles" from homebase (were they clatty or what !) and ranged from
an inch to three inches across.

Peter

[Geezer From The Freezer]

2pods wrote:

> Hi John
>
> I'm 20 odd miles west in Gourock.
> As you would probably guess, it's raining but at least it's too cold for
> midgies :-)
>
> I'm going to keep the plants in small pond plant pots.
> Obviously I'd like to use nice big flat rocks a la my pond, bought I'm
> worried about the weight.
>
> What size of pebble am I looking at ? The stuff I used for the pond was
> "Cornish Cobbles" from homebase (were they clatty or what !) and ranged from
> an inch to three inches across.
>
> Peter

Sounds fine. I use small and large pebbles in mine!

[SkyCatcher]

I have (& am) using both gravel & sand (though not mixed).

What I like about the sand is that the cr*p can't get into it unlike the
gravel. I have an external on it and there is never any mess in the tank.
The sand was playsand from B&Q (washed to within an inch of its life!).

I guess it comes down to a matter of taste!

Sky
"2pods" > wrote in message
...
> I'm setting up a Jewul Rio 400 for goldfish/shubs.
> would I be better with pebbles or sand ?
>
> I'm not going to use a UGF, and so far have only the inbuilt Jewul Jumbo
> filter.
>
> The only pebbles I've seen in LFS are small coloured ones, and the bags of
> sand seem very small (as tank is 400l ).
>
> Our pond has rocks and large pebbles from the local garden centre, but If
I
> use stuff like that for the tank, I'd worry about the weight on the stand.
>
> Any good sources of supply in the UK ?
>
> Peter
>
>

[2pods]

"SkyCatcher" > wrote in message
...
>I have (& am) using both gravel & sand (though not mixed).
>
> What I like about the sand is that the cr*p can't get into it unlike the
> gravel. I have an external on it and there is never any mess in the tank.
> The sand was playsand from B&Q (washed to within an inch of its life!).
>
> I guess it comes down to a matter of taste!
>

How do you keep them seperate ?

Peter

[John Cuthbertson]

Hi Peter,
>
> I'm 20 odd miles west in Gourock.
> As you would probably guess, it's raining but at least it's too cold for
> midgies :-)

Ah - Doon the watter. My Aunt still lives in Largs. Yip I still remember
my run ins with the typical West of Scotland midgie. Talk about "big
nasty teeth".

>
> I'm going to keep the plants in small pond plant pots. Obviously I'd
> like to use nice big flat rocks a la my pond, bought I'm worried about
> the weight.

I wouldn't worry too much about the weight. The amount of rocks compared
to the amount of water is low so the water is the dominant weight factor.
I think the typical filled tank weighs around 10 pounds per US gallon
(taking rocks into account) - that is around than 1 1/4 kilos per litre of
water (capacity). If your floor is sound then it should stand up to it.

>
> What size of pebble am I looking at ? The stuff I used for the pond was
> "Cornish Cobbles" from homebase (were they clatty or what !) and ranged
> from an inch to three inches across.

These would be great. Sound like my river rocks - which were perfect for
goldfish. And if Homebase is selling them for pond use then they should be
OK for tank use. It's up to you how deep you want to make the rocks but I
expect only a couple of layers would suffice.

Cheers

John Cuthbertson

[sophie]

In message >, John
Cuthbertson > writes
>Hi Peter,
>>
>> I'm 20 odd miles west in Gourock.
>> As you would probably guess, it's raining but at least it's too cold for
>> midgies :-)
>
>Ah - Doon the watter. My Aunt still lives in Largs. Yip I still remember
>my run ins with the typical West of Scotland midgie. Talk about "big
>nasty teeth".
>
>>
>> I'm going to keep the plants in small pond plant pots. Obviously I'd
>> like to use nice big flat rocks a la my pond, bought I'm worried about
>> the weight.
>
>I wouldn't worry too much about the weight. The amount of rocks compared
>to the amount of water is low so the water is the dominant weight factor.
>I think the typical filled tank weighs around 10 pounds per US gallon
>(taking rocks into account) - that is around than 1 1/4 kilos per litre of
>water (capacity). If your floor is sound then it should stand up to it.
>
>>
>> What size of pebble am I looking at ? The stuff I used for the pond was
>> "Cornish Cobbles" from homebase (were they clatty or what !) and ranged
>> from an inch to three inches across.
>
>These would be great. Sound like my river rocks - which were perfect for
>goldfish. And if Homebase is selling them for pond use then they should be
>OK for tank use. It's up to you how deep you want to make the rocks but I
>expect only a couple of layers would suffice.
>

just out of interest, how does cleaning work like that?
--
sophie

[2pods]

"John Cuthbertson" > wrote in message
...
>
> These would be great. Sound like my river rocks - which were perfect for
> goldfish. And if Homebase is selling them for pond use then they should be
> OK for tank use. It's up to you how deep you want to make the rocks but I
> expect only a couple of layers would suffice.
>
> Cheers
>
> John Cuthbertson

Well, they say "for use in water features" but we've had them in the pond
since July and they seem ok.
I'll have to really wash them with predjudice though, as we had some foam
etc.

How would some of the decorative slate chips go ?
They're larger than gravel, but not as big as the cobbles so would make a
nice contrast.
If severely pressure washed, do you think they'd be safe to use ?

Peter

[Aquarijen]

> How would some of the decorative slate chips go ?
> They're larger than gravel, but not as big as the cobbles so would make a
> nice contrast.
> If severely pressure washed, do you think they'd be safe to use ?
>
Slate is inert and will not leach. It is safe for in an aquarium.
-Jen

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Aquarijen" > Spake Unto All:

>> How would some of the decorative slate chips go ?
>> They're larger than gravel, but not as big as the cobbles so would make a
>> nice contrast.
>> If severely pressure washed, do you think they'd be safe to use ?
>>
>Slate is inert and will not leach. It is safe for in an aquarium.

Sortof... Slate is fossilized clay, and clay is high in, yes,
silicates. It really is quite difficult to get away from silicates.
In aquaria you can go with RO-water and peat, or RO and
carbonate-based rocks. Pretty much everything else contains silicates,
and will leach some. Like, for instance, clay pots. Or lava rock. Or
the glass of the aquarium.

Silicate sand is about (but not quite) as inert as glass.

The take-home message isn't that one should avoid everything, but that
there's no point in avoiding silicates. Pretty much all of us have
high levels of silicate in our aquaria, but most of us don't suffer
from diatom blooms - because the silicate isn't what's limiting the
diatoms. Most wouldn't see more diatoms even if they dosed sodium
silicate to the aquarium.

[sophie]

<snip>

>The take-home message isn't that one should avoid everything, but that
>there's no point in avoiding silicates. Pretty much all of us have
>high levels of silicate in our aquaria, but most of us don't suffer
>from diatom blooms - because the silicate isn't what's limiting the
>diatoms. Most wouldn't see more diatoms even if they dosed sodium
>silicate to the aquarium.

what _are_ diatoms??
>

--
sophie

[SkyCatcher]

No - I don't mix the sand or gravel in the same tank.


"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>
> "SkyCatcher" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I have (& am) using both gravel & sand (though not mixed).
> >
> > What I like about the sand is that the cr*p can't get into it unlike the
> > gravel. I have an external on it and there is never any mess in the
tank.
> > The sand was playsand from B&Q (washed to within an inch of its life!).
> >
> > I guess it comes down to a matter of taste!
> >
>
> How do you keep them seperate ?
>
> Peter
>
>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

sophie wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >The take-home message isn't that one should avoid everything, but that
> >there's no point in avoiding silicates. Pretty much all of us have
> >high levels of silicate in our aquaria, but most of us don't suffer
> >from diatom blooms - because the silicate isn't what's limiting the
> >diatoms. Most wouldn't see more diatoms even if they dosed sodium
> >silicate to the aquarium.
>
> what _are_ diatoms??

Diatoms are brown algae, although diatoms are not vegetation like normal algae
they are small tiny "animals"

[John Cuthbertson]

Hi Sophie,

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:22:05 +0100, sophie wrote:
>
> just out of interest, how does cleaning work like that?

Are you talsking about the pressure washing or cleaning the rocks in the
tank?

If it was the pressure washing then I imagine that Peter was going to do
this for the initial cleaning of the rock before placing in the tank to
get rid of any dust, fluff, etc. High pressure car washer hose attachments
are fairly common in the UK. My brother has one.

If you are refering to gravel cleaning pebbles in the aquarium then I
found moderately sized pebbles/river rocks (between 1 to 2 inches round -
but flat) to be very easy to clean with just a siphon. I used the siphon
to move the pebbles to one side and get underneath them. The filter took
care of any detritus I stirred up but didn't manage to catch.

John Cuthbertson

[John Cuthbertson]

Hi Peter,

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:28:00 +0100, 2pods wrote:

>
> How would some of the decorative slate chips go ?
> They're larger than gravel, but not as big as the cobbles so would make a
> nice contrast.
> If severely pressure washed, do you think they'd be safe to use ?
>
> Peter

I've never used slate in any of my aquariums but large pieces of slate are
typically used to weigh down driftwood decorations - so it should be OK.
The word "chips" turns me off though. I've never been a big fan of having
sharp edges in the tank. As an example - grab a handful of the chips and
squeeze. If the points dig into your hand really painfully then imagine
how a catfish or pleco will feel lying on it all day. Though the dark
color will make the goldfish colors stand out a bit more. Its your call.

John Cuthbertson

[2pods]

"John Cuthbertson" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Peter,
>
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:28:00 +0100, 2pods wrote:
>
>>
>> How would some of the decorative slate chips go ?
>> They're larger than gravel, but not as big as the cobbles so would make a
>> nice contrast.
>> If severely pressure washed, do you think they'd be safe to use ?
>>
>> Peter
>
> I've never used slate in any of my aquariums but large pieces of slate are
> typically used to weigh down driftwood decorations - so it should be OK.
> The word "chips" turns me off though. I've never been a big fan of having
> sharp edges in the tank. As an example - grab a handful of the chips and
> squeeze. If the points dig into your hand really painfully then imagine
> how a catfish or pleco will feel lying on it all day. Though the dark
> color will make the goldfish colors stand out a bit more. Its your call.
>
> John Cuthbertson

John
I tried squeezing, but seems ok.
The slate is not really chips, more like flat pebbles as you said.

Toni
I used a standard Bosch pressure jet to clean them, and once they're in the
tank, I'll use a Python.

Peter