New 18g tank: advice please

[Vicki PS]

Hi all

I'm a newbie to the group, and a new, rapidly becoming obsessed, fish owner.
I acquired a new 24"x12"x15" tropical tank set up 8 days ago -- running a
Resun Magi-200 internal power filter. I filled the tank with tap water
treated with AquaMaster Chlorine Neutral, let the filter run for a day, the
added the recommended new tank dose of Cycle. The tank doesn't have live
plants, just plastic/silk plants plus some resin rocks, and a small gravel
substrate.

Four days later, I introduced 1 male and 2 female platys, and a further dose
of Cycle. The platys weren't real happy at first. Water tests next day
showed pH above 7.6 (not knowing better, I only got a narrow-spectrum test
kit), ammonia 1.0ppm, nitrates 0.3ppm. I haven't got test kits for GH/KH,
but the LFS tested and said the water is pretty hard. Our local water
supply has a high pH straight from the tap: not sure about hardness, but the
city was originally called Limestone! (Just a mild complaint -- test kits
here in Australia are quite expensive. And I wish I'd read up about
fishless cycling sooner).

Water yesterday -- pH: still >7.6, NH3/NH4: 0.5<1.0ppm, NO2: 0.1ppm. I did
a 25% water change and added 1/2 tsp pH-Down. pH afterward was 7.2.
Today's tests show pH back up, ammonia under 0.5ppm and nitrite 0.3ppm. The
platys are happy and eating well (tropical flake). I'll retest in 2 days.

I hope someone wouldn't mind answering a couple of questions or giving some
sage advice:

1. From what I've read, it seems like opening a big can of worms to try and
adjust the pH with pH-Down or other additives, especially before the tank
has cycled. (I understand that the pH will tend to acidify somewhat as the
cycle completes anyway, is that correct)? I figure I'd be better off
concentrating on fish species that will tolerate alkaline conditions, rather
than messing too much trying to get a lower pH.

2. The tank water smells like cat pee! (And no, the cat hasn't been peeing
in it, to forestall the obvious first question :) Is this normal? Any
thoughts? I wondered if this could be an effect of adding Cycle, or maybe
the tank decorations. Everything was washed well in plain tap water before
adding to the tank, and nothing had an obvious cat-pee smell.

3. Am I correct in thinking that the tank is still cycling, since ammonia
has dropped but nitrite risen slightly? Should I fork out more $$ for a
nitrate test kit? I should mention that the weather here has been quite
warm, up to 27 - 28 deg C during the day, if this has any influence on the
cycle. As it's too late to try fishless cycling, will 3 little platys be
sufficient to provide the biological load to keep the process going without
too much distress to them?

4. Has anyone had any experience with Geoliquid: is it worth using?

5. My thoughts on stocking the tank (focusing on small, hardy, peaceful,
alkaline-tolerant species):
a pair of dwarf blue or honey gourami
4 or 5 platys (including the 3 I've already got)
1 molly or 1 female betta
5 or 6 glolite or flame tetras, or else some WCM minnows
For the bottom: maybe a couple of bumblebee gobys, or else a peacock
gudgeon (if I can find one).

Does this sound reasonable? I'd appreciate advice on time span to
progressively introduce further fish, and whether it's best to introduce
them in any particular order?

Thanks in advance for your help. I've been reading as much as I can in this
and other groups, FAQs, aquaria web sites etc and am learning heaps,
especially about the fundamentals of the nitrogen cycle, and the importance
of good maintenance and regular partial water changes! I just hope I'm not
making too many huge blunders along the way.

Vicki PS

[TYNK 7]

>ubject: New 18g tank: advice please
>From: "Vicki PS"
>Date: 9/26/2004 6:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi all
>
>I'm a newbie to the group, and a new, rapidly becoming obsessed, fish owner.
>I acquired a new 24"x12"x15" tropical tank set up 8 days ago -- running a
>Resun Magi-200 internal power filter. I filled the tank with tap water
>treated with AquaMaster Chlorine Neutral, let the filter run for a day, the
>added the recommended new tank dose of Cycle. The tank doesn't have live
>plants, just plastic/silk plants plus some resin rocks, and a small gravel
>substrate.
>
>Four days later, I introduced 1 male and 2 female platys, and a further dose
>of Cycle. The platys weren't real happy at first. Water tests next day
>showed pH above 7.6 (not knowing better, I only got a narrow-spectrum test
>kit), ammonia 1.0ppm, nitrates 0.3ppm. I haven't got test kits for GH/KH,
>but the LFS tested and said the water is pretty hard. Our local water
>supply has a high pH straight from the tap: not sure about hardness, but the
>city was originally called Limestone! (Just a mild complaint -- test kits
>here in Australia are quite expensive. And I wish I'd read up about
>fishless cycling sooner).
>
>Water yesterday -- pH: still >7.6, NH3/NH4: 0.5<1.0ppm, NO2: 0.1ppm. I did
>a 25% water change and added 1/2 tsp pH-Down. pH afterward was 7.2.
>Today's tests show pH back up, ammonia under 0.5ppm and nitrite 0.3ppm. The
>platys are happy and eating well (tropical flake). I'll retest in 2 days.
>
>I hope someone wouldn't mind answering a couple of questions or giving some
>sage advice:
>
>1. From what I've read, it seems like opening a big can of worms to try and
>adjust the pH with pH-Down or other additives, especially before the tank
>has cycled. (I understand that the pH will tend to acidify somewhat as the
>cycle completes anyway, is that correct)? I figure I'd be better off
>concentrating on fish species that will tolerate alkaline conditions, rather
>than messing too much trying to get a lower pH.
>
>2. The tank water smells like cat pee! (And no, the cat hasn't been peeing
>in it, to forestall the obvious first question :) Is this normal? Any
>thoughts? I wondered if this could be an effect of adding Cycle, or maybe
>the tank decorations. Everything was washed well in plain tap water before
>adding to the tank, and nothing had an obvious cat-pee smell.
>
>3. Am I correct in thinking that the tank is still cycling, since ammonia
>has dropped but nitrite risen slightly? Should I fork out more $$ for a
>nitrate test kit? I should mention that the weather here has been quite
>warm, up to 27 - 28 deg C during the day, if this has any influence on the
>cycle. As it's too late to try fishless cycling, will 3 little platys be
>sufficient to provide the biological load to keep the process going without
>too much distress to them?
>
>4. Has anyone had any experience with Geoliquid: is it worth using?
>
>5. My thoughts on stocking the tank (focusing on small, hardy, peaceful,
>alkaline-tolerant species):
> a pair of dwarf blue or honey gourami
> 4 or 5 platys (including the 3 I've already got)
> 1 molly or 1 female betta
> 5 or 6 glolite or flame tetras, or else some WCM minnows
> For the bottom: maybe a couple of bumblebee gobys, or else a peacock
>gudgeon (if I can find one).
>
>Does this sound reasonable? I'd appreciate advice on time span to
>progressively introduce further fish, and whether it's best to introduce
>them in any particular order?
>
>Thanks in advance for your help. I've been reading as much as I can in this
>and other groups, FAQs, aquaria web sites etc and am learning heaps,
>especially about the fundamentals of the nitrogen cycle, and the importance
>of good maintenance and regular partial water changes! I just hope I'm not
>making too many huge blunders along the way.
>
>Vicki PS
>
>
>

First thing you should know is that product "Cycle" will not help cycle your
tank. It's bunk. "Snake Oil" as some would say.
The other products on the market that are "cycle starters" also do not work, as
they all have the wrong type of bacteria in them.
The only product that does have the corrct type, is marineland's Bio Spira.
It's harder to find because it needs to be kept refrigerated and not all shops
want to find space for the mini frige the company sends with it.
Non of my local shops carry it, but a major chain store does, PetLand.
Here's the link for the product:
http://marineland.com/science/nspira.asp
You can learn about the correct bacteria in the info.
It amazes me that the other ones can still legally claim they "cycle" the tank
when it's wrong stuff.
Anyway, you tank is smelling a little like "cat pee", as you said because of
the building ammoina in the tank.
Hopefully, the Platies you bought were healthy and strong so that they can
survive the cycle period.
I would not suggest buying any more fish until the process is complete (unless
you can find Bio Spira in stock).
After the cycling period is over you can add new fish, only 1-2 at a time. Let
the nitrifying bacteria build up to the new tank load (newly added fish means
the bacteria colony has to create more of themsleves).
I like to wait 2 weeks between fish being added. Some folks wait 1 week.
Being that the tank is cycling, you must not slack off on the water changes.
If you do, the ammonia / nititrite levels can rise to a toxic levels and kill
off your fish.
I do a 20% water change weekly, and every other week a light gravel vacuum.
Don't worry about removing the "good" bacteria with a water change, because
they're not just floating around in the water...they're sticky and stick to
every surface available in your tank. Gravel, plants, the tank wall, anything.
Feed daily, but lightly, as normal.
If after feeding, if there's a tank floor full of flake food...you fed too
much. Trust me, so many newbies make this very common mistake figuring the fish
will eventually eat it up. Not so. It will simply decay and pollute the tank.
As for messing around with the pH, leave it be. It's fine.
You can actually cause more havoc on your tank's water chemistry by trying to
"fix" it.
I am not familiar with the product you asked about..Geoliquid. What is this?

In regard to your stocking wish list:
The Gouramis you've listed...I don't know the specifics on those two types, but
with Gouramis, if you're going to get a pair, just make sure it's either 2
females or male and female. 2 males will harrass each other for territory.
The Molly is acutally better off in Brackish water (half salt half fresh
water).
WCM minnows do better in cooler tanks.
BumbleBee Gobies are brackish fish. They're not going to do so well in
freshwater.
The Peacock Gudgeon sounds like a lovely fish. I've read that it's freshwater,
and that it's brackish. So...somebody with better knowledge of the species will
have a better answer for you.

[Vicki S]

Hi Vicki! Nice to see another one. I can't say it better than Tynk7
did except to say that perhaps more than one 20% water change a week
till your tank is cycled. Good luck and don't give up on your new fish.

Vicki


"It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow fond of it."

~ Robert E. Lee~

Visit me on line at
http://shamrock4u.250free.com

To send e-mail delete webtv.net and add msn.com
(put to Vicki in subject line or my spam filter will discard)

[Sean]

I agree that Cycle does little to shorten the cycling of the tank. Bio-Spira
however does. You can talk to Bernie at FishGeeks (Http://FishGeeks.com) about
this product.


Sean
http://FishGeeks.com
http://FishBanners.com
http://FishClubs.com

[Vicki PS]

Thanks to TYNK 7, Vicki S and Sean!

I've read up on Bio-Spira, and the critiques of Cycle. Unfortunately, I
haven't found any Australian sites that mention Bio-Spira, so I'm guessing
that it's not available here. Damn. And unfortunately I don't know anyone
with a mature tank to beg some gravel or filter media from. So, I'll stick
with your advice, and let the cycle complete naturally before adding any
more fish.

I'm testing every second day, and everything looks okay so far. Will do 20%
water changes at least weekly, more often if the ammonia and nitrate get
much higher. My 3 little platys are still doing fine, healthy and active
and eating.

> I am not familiar with the product you asked about..Geoliquid. What is
this?

I haven't tried it yet: thought I'd ask if anyone here was familiar with it.
It's actually a range of similar products formulated for different
environments, but basically it's a Japanese mineral extract known as
"Bakuhanseki liquid". I understand it supposedly works by colloidal bonding
with minerals, chemical contaminants and bacteria, to clear the water and
help establish the bacterial filter. It's marketed in Australia by Avico
International as Flex Geo Liquid Mineral Magic.

Regarding my "wish list", I'm now trying to decide whether to set up the
tank for brackish water species only. Most of the fish on my list that are
common locally have been bred in freshwater conditions and should be
acclimated, although I understand that most are supposed to benefit from
added salt. So I might be better off opting for all brackish species. I'm
thinking now about:

Brackish tank:
- a couple of dwarf corys (c. rabauti) or bumblebee gobies
- 5 platys
- a molly or female betta
- 3 celebes rainbows or Pacific blue-eyes

Freshwater:
- 2 bronze, albino or peppered corys
- platys (as above)
- molly, swordtail or betta
- a dwarf coral/neon blue gourami and a couple of pearl danios OR 3 dwarf
neon rainbows.

(I'd still like a peacock gudgeon, though!)

Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know how I'm getting on.

Vicki PS

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: New 18g tank: advice please
>From: "Vicki PS"
>Date: 9/28/2004 5:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thanks to TYNK 7, Vicki S and Sean!
>
>I've read up on Bio-Spira, and the critiques of Cycle. Unfortunately, I
>haven't found any Australian sites that mention Bio-Spira, so I'm guessing
>that it's not available here. Damn. And unfortunately I don't know anyone
>with a mature tank to beg some gravel or filter media from. So, I'll stick
>with your advice, and let the cycle complete naturally before adding any
>more fish.
>
>I'm testing every second day, and everything looks okay so far. Will do 20%
>water changes at least weekly, more often if the ammonia and nitrate get
>much higher. My 3 little platys are still doing fine, healthy and active
>and eating.
>
>> I am not familiar with the product you asked about..Geoliquid. What is
>this?
>
>I haven't tried it yet: thought I'd ask if anyone here was familiar with it.
>It's actually a range of similar products formulated for different
>environments, but basically it's a Japanese mineral extract known as
>"Bakuhanseki liquid". I understand it supposedly works by colloidal bonding
>with minerals, chemical contaminants and bacteria, to clear the water and
>help establish the bacterial filter. It's marketed in Australia by Avico
>International as Flex Geo Liquid Mineral Magic.
>
>Regarding my "wish list", I'm now trying to decide whether to set up the
>tank for brackish water species only. Most of the fish on my list that are
>common locally have been bred in freshwater conditions and should be
>acclimated, although I understand that most are supposed to benefit from
>added salt. So I might be better off opting for all brackish species. I'm
>thinking now about:
>
>Brackish tank:
>- a couple of dwarf corys (c. rabauti) or bumblebee gobies
>- 5 platys
>- a molly or female betta
>- 3 celebes rainbows or Pacific blue-eyes
>
>Freshwater:
>- 2 bronze, albino or peppered corys
>- platys (as above)
>- molly, swordtail or betta
>- a dwarf coral/neon blue gourami and a couple of pearl danios OR 3 dwarf
>neon rainbows.
>
>(I'd still like a peacock gudgeon, though!)
>
>Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know how I'm getting on.

Good job Vicki!
I did some research on that Peacock Gudgeon and they are lovely!
I want one too!!! ::stomping my feet in tantrum::
I've just never seent hem out here (Illinois, USA).

[MarAzul]

Cory's are NOT a brackish fish!! They are strictly freshwater.

" Fish like Cory's, Clown Loaches, characins (Tetras) and Rams I've found
out through experience don't like salt."
http://www.corydorasworld.com/kensalt.html

Here's a forum discussion on it..
http://www.corydorasworld.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4428

They should also be kept in groups of at least 6.

--
Mar
-----------------------
Total Fishkeeping
http://totalfishkeeping.co.uk/index.php?

The Blood Parrot Forum
http://www.bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist.com/forum/

"Vicki PS" > wrote in message
...
>
> Brackish tank:
> - a couple of dwarf corys (c. rabauti) or bumblebee gobies
> - 5 platys
> - a molly or female betta
> - 3 celebes rainbows or Pacific blue-eyes
>
> Freshwater:
> - 2 bronze, albino or peppered corys
> - platys (as above)
> - molly, swordtail or betta
> - a dwarf coral/neon blue gourami and a couple of pearl danios OR 3 dwarf
> neon rainbows.
>
> Vicki PS
>
>

[Vicki PS]

Thanks for that, Mar.

Somewhere in my internet searches, I came across the idea that C. rabauti
was one cory that liked, or at least was okay with, a little salt. But I
didn't bookmark the page, and do you think I can find the reference again?
Or maybe I just had a "senior moment" -- again.

Never mind: scratch c. rabauti. (BTW, I was possibly incorrect in talking
about a brackish tank. I was thinking more of small amounts of added salt
for the benefit of the platys and molly -- like one teaspoon per gallon).

Vicki PS

"MarAzul" > wrote in message
news:2Up6d.36626$aW5.33220@fed1read07...
> Cory's are NOT a brackish fish!! They are strictly freshwater.
>
> " Fish like Cory's, Clown Loaches, characins (Tetras) and Rams I've found
> out through experience don't like salt."
> http://www.corydorasworld.com/kensalt.html
>
> Here's a forum discussion on it..
> http://www.corydorasworld.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4428
>
> They should also be kept in groups of at least 6.

[MarAzul]

Cory's don't do well with any amount of salt. Some cory guru's even
recommend taking cats of any kind out of a tank before treating illness with
salt. Another thing with corys (and cats in general) - when treating with
meds, you usually cut the dose in half. They're sensative little fish, but
with proper care and maintenance, they rarely get sick.

Mar
-----------------------
Total Fishkeeping
http://totalfishkeeping.co.uk/index.php?

The Blood Parrot Forum
http://www.bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist.com/forum/

"Vicki PS" > wrote in message
...
> Never mind: scratch c. rabauti. (BTW, I was possibly incorrect in talking
> about a brackish tank. I was thinking more of small amounts of added salt
> for the benefit of the platys and molly -- like one teaspoon per gallon).
>
> Vicki PS
>

[ManWorld42]

[deleted]
>
> 1. From what I've read, it seems like opening a big can of worms to try and
> adjust the pH with pH-Down or other additives, especially before the tank
> has cycled. (I understand that the pH will tend to acidify somewhat as the
> cycle completes anyway, is that correct)? I figure I'd be better off
> concentrating on fish species that will tolerate alkaline conditions, rather
> than messing too much trying to get a lower pH.

I read that higher pH will make the NH3/NH4 more toxic. It sounds
like your water have a lot of buffering given that you are living in
Limestone, so trying to get it down may not be easy non sustainable.
>
> 2. The tank water smells like cat pee! (And no, the cat hasn't been peeing
> in it, to forestall the obvious first question :) Is this normal? Any
> thoughts? I wondered if this could be an effect of adding Cycle, or maybe
> the tank decorations. Everything was washed well in plain tap water before
> adding to the tank, and nothing had an obvious cat-pee smell.

I think 1 ppm of NH3/NH4 is high. I keep my tank under 0.25 ppm.
Currently I have to do water changes twice a day to keep it that way.
The fish are doing great. The scales of the Danios are SO shiny, they
are just beautiful.
>
> 3. Am I correct in thinking that the tank is still cycling, since ammonia
> has dropped but nitrite risen slightly? Should I fork out more $$ for a
> nitrate test kit? I should mention that the weather here has been quite
> warm, up to 27 - 28 deg C during the day, if this has any influence on the
> cycle. As it's too late to try fishless cycling, will 3 little platys be
> sufficient to provide the biological load to keep the process going without
> too much distress to them?
>
Your low fish load and cat pee smell after such a short time suggests
to me that you are over feeding.

> 4. Has anyone had any experience with Geoliquid: is it worth using?
>
I use Amquel+. Probably a mistaken. Really difficult to cycle when
the chemical you use for removing chlorine also remove ammonia, NO2
and NO3.

> 5. My thoughts on stocking the tank (focusing on small, hardy, peaceful,
> alkaline-tolerant species):
> a pair of dwarf blue or honey gourami
> 4 or 5 platys (including the 3 I've already got)
> 1 molly or 1 female betta
> 5 or 6 glolite or flame tetras, or else some WCM minnows
> For the bottom: maybe a couple of bumblebee gobys, or else a peacock
> gudgeon (if I can find one).

I thought Gouramis and Bettas love sof****er. Molly requires brackish
water. I read that tetras are not that hardy. I would stick with
Platys and Danios. That is what I have. I also have ONE blue
Gourami. You are asking for trouble if you keep more than one, they
tend to beat the crap out of each other.
>
> Does this sound reasonable? I'd appreciate advice on time span to
> progressively introduce further fish, and whether it's best to introduce
> them in any particular order?

I would do more research if I were you. You have have hardwater, so
you have to get the right fish. If I were to be in your shoes, I will
stick with Danios and Platys.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help. I've been reading as much as I can in this
> and other groups, FAQs, aquaria web sites etc and am learning heaps,
> especially about the fundamentals of the nitrogen cycle, and the importance
> of good maintenance and regular partial water changes! I just hope I'm not
> making too many huge blunders along the way.
>
Go to your library. There are some great books on Tropical Fishes.
Some list the pH and hardness requirements. Oh, btw Bettas need high
temperature and still water. You probably don't want to keep them
with your other fish because of that.

One more thing. Get a 50g tank. 18g is a lot of work. It is too
small and too unstable. I have a 36g tank and really wish I got a 50g
instead.

> Vicki PS

[Vicki PS]

"ManWorld42" > wrote in message
m...
> I think 1 ppm of NH3/NH4 is high. I keep my tank under 0.25 ppm.
> Currently I have to do water changes twice a day to keep it that way.
> The fish are doing great. The scales of the Danios are SO shiny, they
> are just beautiful.

Ammonia is now staying at 0ppm or very close to. Nitrite between .1 and .3,
and I do a 20% water change if it gets to .3ppm. Nitrates are 5ppm.

> Your low fish load and cat pee smell after such a short time suggests
> to me that you are over feeding.

I should have mentioned that the cat pee smell was there even before I
introduced the first fish, which made me suspect the Cycle or the fake
plants. But you could be right about overfeeding -- I'm still learning to
judge more accurately how much is enough. Hard to tell sometimes how much
is actually eaten in a couple of minutes, as the flake or brineshrimp
disperses pretty quickly.

> One more thing. Get a 50g tank. 18g is a lot of work. It is too
> small and too unstable. I have a 36g tank and really wish I got a 50g
> instead.

I wish! A two-foot tank is all I have space for at the moment.

Thanks for the good advice! Cheers

Vicki PS