Winterizing - Again

[Bill Stock]

I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
are maxing out my tanks.

So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.

Opinions please.

BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.

[John Bachman]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
wrote:

>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
>are maxing out my tanks.
>
>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.
>
>Opinions please.
>
>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>
>
Why bother with the styrofoam and plywood? If your pump sends
bubbles to the surface so that an opening is in the ice all winter you
will be fine.

I run a line from my compressor in the garage to a PVC tee-shaped
contraption that spans the pond with a leg dangling into the water. A
cap at the end with small holes drilled into it makes a nice bubbler.

I am also in zone 5b in NH.

JMHO

John

[W Dale]

I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight. As
long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
Anyone else?

Bill Stock wrote:

>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
>are maxing out my tanks.
>
>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.
>
>Opinions please.
>
>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>
>
>
>
>

[rtk]

John Bachman wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
>>are maxing out my tanks.
>>
>>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
>>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
>>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.
>>
>>Opinions please.
>>
>>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.

You seem to be trying to warm the fish a bit, which isn't needed. Their
problem in freezing weather is dying from excessive gas which can't be
released through ice. If there is a hole in the ice, they will be fine
semi-hibernating away from the heat you provide. The hole can be
maintained with a small round rather flat heater, made for that purpose,
which only turns on below 32 degrees or by leaving the waterfall on. It
doesn't heat the water beyond a small circumference. That's just fine.
I assume you have goldfish, koi, or other coldwater, not tropical, fish.

Ruth Kazez

[Roy]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 05:37:50 -0600, W Dale >
wrote:

>===<>I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight. As
>===<>long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
>===<>Anyone else?
>===<>
>===<>Bill Stock wrote:
>===<>
>===<>>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
>===<>>are maxing out my tanks.
>===<>>
>===<>>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
>===<>>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>===<>>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
>===<>>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.
>===<>>
>===<>>Opinions please.
>===<>>
>===<>>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>

It does not take long to do in submerged plants fromlack of sunlight.
I lost a few nice containerized plants during Ivan when I made a tent
to cover over the wifes 1/2 barrel. Since time was a major
consideration, the barrel half was covered a day before Ivan hit, but
the pump / filter remained inoperation until the ower went out, and it
may have been covered yet 10 or so more hours after Ivan left until we
got around to uncovering it, but in the meantime we used generator
power so it had filtration during this time....and my plants still got
awfully yellow pretty darn fast.......The cat tails, arrowheads and
ribbon grass all kicked the bucket in that short time frame.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[Derek Broughton]

W Dale wrote:

> I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight. As
> long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
>
They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered Ontario
pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.

Generally, tropical plants need sunlight year-round. Some will pull through
as house plants, some can't even get enough light that way in most houses.
Temperate plants usually expect a dormant period, and whether they get
little or no light makes no difference to them once they've shed their
leaves. Lilies put out tiny little indicator leaves that trigger growth
when the amount of sunlight picks up.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

I am zone 5 sorta b too. for me the problem is the length of time my fish are
"down".. that is, the water temp drops below 50oF and their immunity is down and they
dont eat. with just the air stone and a pump running the temp was below 50 for 6
months of the year, from Oct 15th or so to April 15th or so. Too long, too harsh.
after the pond froze over the second year when the electricity went out I decided to
put a lean to over the pond.
last year I also put in a 500 watt aquarium heater and the temp stayed above 50o for
all but one month.
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/winters/winter.htm
the fish looked a lot better this spring. I was very careful feeding them, only a
little bit, and not every day and checking ammonia all the time.
I sure would like a web cam in there to watch my fish, I just dont know where to
start. Ingrid

"Bill Stock" > wrote:
>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor cousins
>are maxing out my tanks.
>
>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put one
>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a couple
>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar heating.
>
>Opinions please.
>
>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[S. M. Henning]

Derek Broughton > wrote:

> > I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight. As
> > long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
> >
> They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered Ontario
> pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.

But an ice covered pond is cold. This pond is going to be covered and
insulated and heated. If you have heat, you need light. Heat promotes
activity. Living things need a balance. Any heat should only be
applied when the water temp is threatening to freeze over the top of the
pond. Otherwise it should be off.

An air pump would do this job much easier than a heater and a water pump.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[Derek Broughton]

S. M. Henning wrote:

> Derek Broughton > wrote:
>
>> > I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight. As
>> > long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
>> >
>> They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered Ontario
>> pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.
>
> But an ice covered pond is cold. This pond is going to be covered and
> insulated and heated. If you have heat, you need light. Heat promotes
> activity.

You're right - I didn't read closely enough.

> An air pump would do this job much easier than a heater and a water pump.

You're even more right :-) It's easier _and cheaper_. Heaters are
expensive to operate. Most of us would never even notice the cost of the
electricity needed to run a bubbler.
--
derek

[Ka30P]

Another sign of winter coming - the iris seed pods
on the island opened and dropped their red seeds into the pond. I've had a few
volunteer iris grow this way on the sod sides of the pond.
And the lizard's tail leaves are changing color.

Off we went to niece number three wedding
in Idaho past weekend (three down and one to go, next summer, for their mom and
dad).
Then drove north to visit grandma, lots of fall color out.
Saw an old wood stove standing alone in a field with its oven door open and a
sign that read:
OPEN RANGE





kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[Bill Stock]

"John Bachman" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
> wrote:
>
> >I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor
cousins
> >are maxing out my tanks.
> >
> >So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put
one
> >of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
> >tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a
couple
> >of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar
heating.
> >
> >Opinions please.
> >
> >BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
> >
> >
> Why bother with the styrofoam and plywood? If your pump sends
> bubbles to the surface so that an opening is in the ice all winter you
> will be fine.
>
> I run a line from my compressor in the garage to a PVC tee-shaped
> contraption that spans the pond with a leg dangling into the water. A
> cap at the end with small holes drilled into it makes a nice bubbler.
>
> I am also in zone 5b in NH.

Neat idea. But my compressor is only 3 gallons, so it would probably run all
the time. Not to mention it's in the basement, so sleep could be an issue.
:)


> JMHO
>
> John
>

[Bill Stock]

"Hal" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
> wrote:
>
> >I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor
cousins
> >are maxing out my tanks.
> >
> >So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put
one
> >of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
> >tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a
couple
> >of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar
heating.
> >
> >Opinions please.
> >
> >BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>
> My favorite plan for wintering a pond where it freezes and stays
> frozen is to keep the water level high until after the top freezes
> solid, then make a hole in the ice with a small pot of hot water or a
> cordless drill. Pump out about an inch of water and the layer of ice
> will insulate the pond and keep it from freezing again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hal

I've read about the "Sweedish solution", sounds intriguiging. I gather you
still run a bubbler or are you saying that your hole will not freeze over at
all?

[Bill Stock]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> S. M. Henning wrote:
>
> > Derek Broughton > wrote:
> >
> >> > I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight.
As
> >> > long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
> >> >
> >> They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered Ontario
> >> pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.
> >
> > But an ice covered pond is cold. This pond is going to be covered and
> > insulated and heated. If you have heat, you need light. Heat promotes
> > activity.
>
> You're right - I didn't read closely enough.
>
> > An air pump would do this job much easier than a heater and a water
pump.
>
> You're even more right :-) It's easier _and cheaper_. Heaters are
> expensive to operate. Most of us would never even notice the cost of the
> electricity needed to run a bubbler.
> --
> derek

I think I agree with you original thoughts Derek. Light certainly would not
be an issue for the plants, as I only have Lillies and Iris. I doubt that
much snow penetrates the snow and ice in any event.

[Bill Stock]

"rtk" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> John Bachman wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor
cousins
> >>are maxing out my tanks.
> >>
> >>So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put
one
> >>of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
> >>tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a
couple
> >>of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar
heating.
> >>
> >>Opinions please.
> >>
> >>BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>
> You seem to be trying to warm the fish a bit, which isn't needed. Their
> problem in freezing weather is dying from excessive gas which can't be
> released through ice. If there is a hole in the ice, they will be fine
> semi-hibernating away from the heat you provide. The hole can be
> maintained with a small round rather flat heater, made for that purpose,
> which only turns on below 32 degrees or by leaving the waterfall on. It
> doesn't heat the water beyond a small circumference. That's just fine.
> I assume you have goldfish, koi, or other coldwater, not tropical, fish.
>
> Ruth Kazez

I wasn't really thinking of keeping the fish active, but also don't want
them to freeze their little fins off. I don't imagine a 100 watts would keep
them too warm when it's -30. I was hoping that a cover would reduce the
maintenance required to keep the air hole open. The down side is that snow
makes a very good insulator.

[Bill Stock]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > S. M. Henning wrote:
> >
> > > Derek Broughton > wrote:
> > >
> > >> > I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight.
> As
> > >> > long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
> > >> >
> > >> They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered
Ontario
> > >> pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.
> > >
> > > But an ice covered pond is cold. This pond is going to be covered and
> > > insulated and heated. If you have heat, you need light. Heat
promotes
> > > activity.
> >
> > You're right - I didn't read closely enough.
> >
> > > An air pump would do this job much easier than a heater and a water
> pump.
> >
> > You're even more right :-) It's easier _and cheaper_. Heaters are
> > expensive to operate. Most of us would never even notice the cost of
the
> > electricity needed to run a bubbler.
> > --
> > derek
>
> I think I agree with you original thoughts Derek. Light certainly would
not
> be an issue for the plants, as I only have Lillies and Iris. I doubt that
> much snow penetrates the snow and ice in any event.
>

That should be... I doubt that much light penetrates the snow and ice in
any event.

[John Bachman]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:43:57 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
wrote:

>
>"John Bachman" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:56:25 -0400, "Bill Stock" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I'm going to leave the fishes in the pond this year, as their indoor
>cousins
>> >are maxing out my tanks.
>> >
>> >So the plan is to leave the pump going beneath the surface (1') and put
>one
>> >of the 100 watt heaters within a couple of feet of the pump. I'm also
>> >tempted to cover the pond with 2" of stryofoam sandwhiched between a
>couple
>> >of sheets of plywood. Perhaps paint the plywood black for the solar
>heating.
>> >
>> >Opinions please.
>> >
>> >BTW: I'm in zone 5b, pond is roughly 4x6 and 30" deep.
>> >
>> >
>> Why bother with the styrofoam and plywood? If your pump sends
>> bubbles to the surface so that an opening is in the ice all winter you
>> will be fine.
>>
>> I run a line from my compressor in the garage to a PVC tee-shaped
>> contraption that spans the pond with a leg dangling into the water. A
>> cap at the end with small holes drilled into it makes a nice bubbler.
>>
>> I am also in zone 5b in NH.
>
>Neat idea. But my compressor is only 3 gallons, so it would probably run all
>the time. Not to mention it's in the basement, so sleep could be an issue.
>:)

An alternative is to run a simple aquarium bubbler. pump. I tried
that and it worked fine until the temp got so low that the pump
diaphragm stiffened so that it could no longer create enough pressure
to overcome 3 feet of water. I raised the bubbler and all was good
but my compressor (in the detached garage so no noise problem) works
fine.

Do not worry about heat, mother Earth provides plenty. Our frost
line was nearly 4 feet deep last year but there was only about 15
inches of ice on the pond. The heat comes from the earth below. The
pond water can move, unlike soil, and therefore carries the warmth
from below to the upper regions. That keeps the ice thickness down so
that the bubbler can keep a hole open. The fishes will be fine. I
lost two fry last winter because they got trapped in the skimmer,
everyone else was fine.

John

[Derek Broughton]

Bill Stock wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> S. M. Henning wrote:
>>
>> > Derek Broughton > wrote:
>> >
>> >> > I have heard that your fish and sunken plants still need sunlight.
> As
>> >> > long as you do not completely cover the surface of the pond ...
>> >> >
>> >> They get perilously little sunlight in an ice- and snow-covered
>> >> Ontario pond, whether it's covered or not, so I'd say no.
>> >
>> > But an ice covered pond is cold. This pond is going to be covered and
>> > insulated and heated. If you have heat, you need light. Heat promotes
>> > activity.
>>
>> You're right - I didn't read closely enough.
>>
>> > An air pump would do this job much easier than a heater and a water
> pump.
>>
>> You're even more right :-) It's easier _and cheaper_. Heaters are
>> expensive to operate. Most of us would never even notice the cost of the
>> electricity needed to run a bubbler.
>
> I think I agree with you original thoughts Derek. Light certainly would
> not be an issue for the plants, as I only have Lillies and Iris. I doubt
> that much [light] penetrates the snow and ice in any event.

Yes, but SM was correct too. _if_ you cover, insulate, and heat this pond
you run the risk of not letting the plants get properly dormant. OK, you'd
have to pour a lot of heat into an Ontario pond to accomplish that, but the
point's still valid - forget the heater and use a bubbler. Let it cool
down and don't fight it except to keep a little breather hole open.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

John Bachman wrote:

> An alternative is to run a simple aquarium bubbler. pump. I tried
> that and it worked fine until the temp got so low that the pump
> diaphragm stiffened so that it could no longer create enough pressure
> to overcome 3 feet of water. I raised the bubbler and all was good
> but my compressor (in the detached garage so no noise problem) works
> fine.

Yes, but that's probably as expensive to run as a heater. My aquarium pump
ran 15W, and there's no reason to have it in 3' of water anyway. I had the
same problem, initially, and ended up suspending it at 6" (much less than
actual ice thickness). I did have to replace the diaphragm twice every
season.
--
derek