Goldfish and Fantail sitting on bottom not feeding - HELP

[Fuzzy Orange]

A little history
I have a 36x12x15 fish tank with a fluval 2+ filter and air stone, which
had 3 large goldfish and a fantail in (all 4 years old)

1 of the large goldfish unfortunatly died shortly after moving house - I
found that the power had gone off and the airstone had stopped working
- it died during the night

All was well for a while..

Now I recently purchased 3 more young fantails (grey colour) and added
them to the tank
I seem to be having problems since

One of the goldfish developed 3 white "spots" on its mouth and seemed
less energetic than normal
I assumed this was a mouth fungus so I put some fungus treatment into
the water

Then the 2 large goldfish and fantail started just sitting on the bottom
They have been like this now for a week - they hardly move, just lay on
the bottom and very rarely eat
I just soaked some food in water for a while and dropped it in and
they've completely ignored it

A few days after they stopped moving around one of the new fantails was
found dead - unsure why but its been removed from the tank

The 2 other NEW fantails seemed fine swimming around happily and they
still feed although one does seem to have some red patches on its tails..

Im at a loss as to what to try - I noticed their poo has had a white
stringy bit too it and has been floating around - I cleaned most of it
out but it didnt help

I also removed 60% of the water from the tanks and replaced with fresh
and that still hasnt helped

Ive been treating them with swim bladder treatment fluid every 48 hours
for 3 days and still no change

The large fantail and the 2 large goldfish are all huddled around the
filter on the bottom 24 hours a day now and its really worrying me

Sorry for the long post - Any help would be very much appreciated

- Phil

[disco]

Phil,

Take those fisheez to the glue factory, they are done for!

Stop drinking from your tank also, that helps.

Finally, buy a dog, much less hassle and equally as expensive.

Flame OFF

[Fuzzy Orange]

disco wrote:
> Phil,
>
> Take those fisheez to the glue factory, they are done for!
>
> Stop drinking from your tank also, that helps.
>
> Finally, buy a dog, much less hassle and equally as expensive.
>
> Flame OFF


Cheers your mum said the same thing to me last night!

[Szaki]

You have high Nitrite or Ammonia in the tank, from over feeding or some
other reasons. 60% water change don't do it, if it's high. Change the water
completely or few water changes, 3/4, 1/2,1/2, than 1/4 water changes, same
day. Check your water quality at petstore, free, or buy a kit. It's much
better if you learn how.
High Ammonia or Nitrite will kill your fish within a day, also stresses it
out, that's why they get diseases.
Can you picture it, if I lock you in a room, for months, nothing comes out,
only food goes in.
Your waist, breath, CO2 just accumulate in there. Wouldn't you get stressed
out after a while?

Julius

"Fuzzy Orange" > wrote in message
...
> A little history
> I have a 36x12x15 fish tank with a fluval 2+ filter and air stone, which
> had 3 large goldfish and a fantail in (all 4 years old)
>
> 1 of the large goldfish unfortunatly died shortly after moving house - I
> found that the power had gone off and the airstone had stopped working
> - it died during the night
>
> All was well for a while..
>
> Now I recently purchased 3 more young fantails (grey colour) and added
> them to the tank
> I seem to be having problems since
>
> One of the goldfish developed 3 white "spots" on its mouth and seemed
> less energetic than normal
> I assumed this was a mouth fungus so I put some fungus treatment into
> the water
>
> Then the 2 large goldfish and fantail started just sitting on the bottom
> They have been like this now for a week - they hardly move, just lay on
> the bottom and very rarely eat
> I just soaked some food in water for a while and dropped it in and
> they've completely ignored it
>
> A few days after they stopped moving around one of the new fantails was
> found dead - unsure why but its been removed from the tank
>
> The 2 other NEW fantails seemed fine swimming around happily and they
> still feed although one does seem to have some red patches on its tails..
>
> Im at a loss as to what to try - I noticed their poo has had a white
> stringy bit too it and has been floating around - I cleaned most of it
> out but it didnt help
>
> I also removed 60% of the water from the tanks and replaced with fresh
> and that still hasnt helped
>
> Ive been treating them with swim bladder treatment fluid every 48 hours
> for 3 days and still no change
>
> The large fantail and the 2 large goldfish are all huddled around the
> filter on the bottom 24 hours a day now and its really worrying me
>
> Sorry for the long post - Any help would be very much appreciated
>
> - Phil

[Fuzzy Orange]

Szaki wrote:
> You have high Nitrite or Ammonia in the tank, from over feeding or some
> other reasons. 60% water change don't do it, if it's high. Change the water
> completely or few water changes, 3/4, 1/2,1/2, than 1/4 water changes, same
> day. Check your water quality at petstore, free, or buy a kit. It's much
> better if you learn how.
> High Ammonia or Nitrite will kill your fish within a day, also stresses it
> out, that's why they get diseases.
> Can you picture it, if I lock you in a room, for months, nothing comes out,
> only food goes in.
> Your waist, breath, CO2 just accumulate in there. Wouldn't you get stressed
> out after a while?
>
> Julius

If you say I have high nitrite or ammonia and these will kill my fish
within a day then why have they been sat at the bottom but very much
alive for over a week

The water was completely fresh 3 weeks ago when I moved into my new house

[Szaki]

"Fuzzy Orange" > wrote in message
...
> Szaki wrote:
> > You have high Nitrite or Ammonia in the tank, from over feeding or some
> > other reasons. 60% water change don't do it, if it's high. Change the
water
> > completely or few water changes, 3/4, 1/2,1/2, than 1/4 water changes,
same
> > day. Check your water quality at petstore, free, or buy a kit. It's much
> > better if you learn how.
> > High Ammonia or Nitrite will kill your fish within a day, also stresses
it
> > out, that's why they get diseases.
> > Can you picture it, if I lock you in a room, for months, nothing comes
out,
> > only food goes in.
> > Your waist, breath, CO2 just accumulate in there. Wouldn't you get
stressed
> > out after a while?
> >
> > Julius
>
> If you say I have high nitrite or ammonia and these will kill my fish
> within a day then why have they been sat at the bottom but very much
> alive for over a week
>
> The water was completely fresh 3 weeks ago when I moved into my new house

Have you checked the water quality?
Guppies are very sensitive, for example. Once I had very high nitrite in my
tank, also had some ammonia. Bought a few guppies, by the next morning they
were dead. Than, I begin investigating what happened by testing the water.
Ammonia can rise very fast, mostly in new tanks. 3 weeks is a long time and
if the fish is all ready sick, you have to treat them with medication.
You have to keep your Nitrite under 40pm and try to keep it around 20 ppm.
Ammonia should be 0 ppm.
In 3 weeks, if you over feed the fish, can go to 100 ppm, means have to
change all the water out.

Julius

[Fuzzy Orange]

Szaki wrote:
> Have you checked the water quality?
> Guppies are very sensitive, for example. Once I had very high nitrite in my
> tank, also had some ammonia. Bought a few guppies, by the next morning they
> were dead. Than, I begin investigating what happened by testing the water.
> Ammonia can rise very fast, mostly in new tanks. 3 weeks is a long time and
> if the fish is all ready sick, you have to treat them with medication.
> You have to keep your Nitrite under 40pm and try to keep it around 20 ppm.
> Ammonia should be 0 ppm.
> In 3 weeks, if you over feed the fish, can go to 100 ppm, means have to
> change all the water out.
>
> Julius
>
>


Thanks I will do a FULL water change tonight and get a testing kit
tomorrow to check the new water is ok

- Phil

[sophie]

In message >, Fuzzy Orange
> writes
>Szaki wrote:
>> You have high Nitrite or Ammonia in the tank, from over feeding or some
>> other reasons. 60% water change don't do it, if it's high. Change the water
>> completely or few water changes, 3/4, 1/2,1/2, than 1/4 water changes, same
>> day. Check your water quality at petstore, free, or buy a kit. It's much
>> better if you learn how.
>> High Ammonia or Nitrite will kill your fish within a day, also stresses it
>> out, that's why they get diseases.
>> Can you picture it, if I lock you in a room, for months, nothing comes out,
>> only food goes in.
>> Your waist, breath, CO2 just accumulate in there. Wouldn't you get stressed
>> out after a while?
>> Julius
>
>If you say I have high nitrite or ammonia and these will kill my fish
>within a day then why have they been sat at the bottom but very much
>alive for over a week

because the build-up is gradual...
>
>The water was completely fresh 3 weeks ago when I moved into my new house

If none has been changed for three weeks after moving house this might
be your problem; also if you added three new fish you've doubled the
bio-load on an already overstretched system (your stocking levels are a
fair bit higher than recommended) and the filter isn't coping with the
extra waste. Did you notice vaguely cloudy white water at any point?

Basically, your water has been getting slowly more toxic over the last
three weeks. You should probably do fifty percent water changes daily
(and do use something to get rid of the chlorine) for a while and then
keep a close eye on your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels. If you do
intend to keep all those fish in that tank (which no-one here will
recommend, btw!) you're going to have to be absolutely religious about
water changes and you will need to under- rather than over-feed.

The white spots could be Ich, I'm not sure - you'd need someone who
knows more about stuff than me to deal with that one...
--
sophie

[Kellbot]

Fuzzy Orange > wrote in message >...
> If you say I have high nitrite or ammonia and these will kill my fish
> within a day then why have they been sat at the bottom but very much
> alive for over a week
>
> The water was completely fresh 3 weeks ago when I moved into my new house


3 weeks ago?! It definately needs changing. Your fish are at teh
bottom because they can't breathe. Get an ammonia and nitrite testing
kit, and start doing water changes at least once a day until your tank
gets better.

[Szaki]

PetsMart sells or can be bought on line, water testing kits. One I like, has
5 small pads on it, (Quick Dip 5-N-1 Test Strips) Made by Jungle, testing 5
different conditions, including Nitrites. You don't have to be rocket
scientist, just match the colors. Cost about $12, mine lasted all most 2
years, depends how frequently do the test.

Julius

"Fuzzy Orange" > wrote in message
...
> Szaki wrote:
> > Have you checked the water quality?
> > Guppies are very sensitive, for example. Once I had very high nitrite in
my
> > tank, also had some ammonia. Bought a few guppies, by the next morning
they
> > were dead. Than, I begin investigating what happened by testing the
water.
> > Ammonia can rise very fast, mostly in new tanks. 3 weeks is a long time
and
> > if the fish is all ready sick, you have to treat them with medication.
> > You have to keep your Nitrite under 40pm and try to keep it around 20
ppm.
> > Ammonia should be 0 ppm.
> > In 3 weeks, if you over feed the fish, can go to 100 ppm, means have to
> > change all the water out.
> >
> > Julius
> >
> >
>
>
> Thanks I will do a FULL water change tonight and get a testing kit
> tomorrow to check the new water is ok
>
> - Phil

[Fuzzy Orange]

Szaki wrote:
> PetsMart sells or can be bought on line, water testing kits. One I like, has
> 5 small pads on it, (Quick Dip 5-N-1 Test Strips) Made by Jungle, testing 5
> different conditions, including Nitrites. You don't have to be rocket
> scientist, just match the colors. Cost about $12, mine lasted all most 2
> years, depends how frequently do the test.

Bit more expensive in the UK

But theres a local pet place that does free water testing
Took some today and the guy said that the ammonia was ok -slightly above 0

But said the nitrate or nitrite was too high
came up mid way on his scale instead of 0

He told me not to change the water because that would make it worse??
Just told me to leave it for a week and then change 20% of water and to
hoover all the old food and fish poo from the stones...!

Does that sound at all right?

[sophie]

In message >, Fuzzy Orange
> writes
>Szaki wrote:
>> PetsMart sells or can be bought on line, water testing kits. One I like, has
>> 5 small pads on it, (Quick Dip 5-N-1 Test Strips) Made by Jungle, testing 5
>> different conditions, including Nitrites. You don't have to be rocket
>> scientist, just match the colors. Cost about $12, mine lasted all most 2
>> years, depends how frequently do the test.
>
>Bit more expensive in the UK
>
>But theres a local pet place that does free water testing
>Took some today and the guy said that the ammonia was ok -slightly above 0
>
>But said the nitrate or nitrite was too high
>came up mid way on his scale instead of 0
>
>He told me not to change the water because that would make it worse??

if I were a cynic, I'd say he was hoping you'd be back in a week to
replace your dead fish.
He has a point in that if the tank is cycling, removing part of the
water will slow down the cycle. Marginally, I believe, but I'm willing
to be corrected ;-)
HOWEVER if your fish are suffering you should do regular, large water
changes. The tank _will_ cycle anyway, and you will probably save your
fishes lives.
You are going to need to do frequent water changes as a matter of
routine even once the tank has cycled, and you should certainly be
vacuuming the bottom regularly (if you have gravel you have to make sure
to work the bottom of the widget all the way down to the base of the
tank); otherwise you might as well not bother changing the water.

With your fish-load I think you'd need to change near to 50% of the
water weekly to be sure. Don't take me for an expert, I'm not; but I did
have to find out a lot about tank hygiene in a hurry earlier in the
year.

best of luck,
--
sophie

[Szaki]

What was the exact Nitrite reading, in PPM? Did he tell you?
You see, that's why I do my own test and learned about ammonia cycle, 'cause
fish stores like PetsMart and like hire all these kids, don't know crap,
they just sales man.
Every time I walk into these places, different person runs around in the
fish section, they come and go in the job.
When you change your water do a test, what is the PH reading?, What is the
Nitrite reading? I learned by testing, that a half tank water change didn't
reduce high Nitrite or if it did a bit, in a few days it was back high
again, because the gravel and filter also can hold fish waist or left over
food, converts over ammonia, nitrate and nitrite in short time.
When I found out my Nitrite was 70-80 PPM, I had to do 3/4 water change,
than 2x 50%, than one 1/4 tank water change and I had acceptable 20-30 ppm
Nitrite in my water. Than I found out, my city, tap water all ready has
about 15 ppm Nitrite in it to start with. So you should check that also.
5-6 fish can cost $15-$20 and they can be dead in a few days if the water is
not right. You could've invest that money into a water testing kit, last a
few years and have healthy fish and minimum loose.
Read this web sites about Nitrite poisoning!

http://www.angelfire.com/blues/fish_problems/NITRITEPOISONING.html
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/nitritepoison.htm

Julius

"Fuzzy Orange" > wrote in message
...
> Szaki wrote:
> > PetsMart sells or can be bought on line, water testing kits. One I like,
has
> > 5 small pads on it, (Quick Dip 5-N-1 Test Strips) Made by Jungle,
testing 5
> > different conditions, including Nitrites. You don't have to be rocket
> > scientist, just match the colors. Cost about $12, mine lasted all most 2
> > years, depends how frequently do the test.
>
> Bit more expensive in the UK
>
> But theres a local pet place that does free water testing
> Took some today and the guy said that the ammonia was ok -slightly above 0

>
> But said the nitrate or nitrite was too high
> came up mid way on his scale instead of 0
>
> He told me not to change the water because that would make it worse??
> Just told me to leave it for a week and then change 20% of water and to
> hoover all the old food and fish poo from the stones...!
>
> Does that sound at all right?

[Bill Stock]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Fuzzy Orange
> > writes
> >Szaki wrote:
> >> PetsMart sells or can be bought on line, water testing kits. One I
like, has
> >> 5 small pads on it, (Quick Dip 5-N-1 Test Strips) Made by Jungle,
testing 5
> >> different conditions, including Nitrites. You don't have to be rocket
> >> scientist, just match the colors. Cost about $12, mine lasted all most
2
> >> years, depends how frequently do the test.
> >
> >Bit more expensive in the UK
> >
> >But theres a local pet place that does free water testing
> >Took some today and the guy said that the ammonia was ok -slightly above
0
> >
> >But said the nitrate or nitrite was too high
> >came up mid way on his scale instead of 0
> >
> >He told me not to change the water because that would make it worse??
>
> if I were a cynic, I'd say he was hoping you'd be back in a week to
> replace your dead fish.
> He has a point in that if the tank is cycling, removing part of the
> water will slow down the cycle. Marginally, I believe, but I'm willing
> to be corrected ;-)
> HOWEVER if your fish are suffering you should do regular, large water
> changes. The tank _will_ cycle anyway, and you will probably save your
> fishes lives.
> You are going to need to do frequent water changes as a matter of
> routine even once the tank has cycled, and you should certainly be
> vacuuming the bottom regularly (if you have gravel you have to make sure
> to work the bottom of the widget all the way down to the base of the
> tank); otherwise you might as well not bother changing the water.
>
> With your fish-load I think you'd need to change near to 50% of the
> water weekly to be sure. Don't take me for an expert, I'm not; but I did
> have to find out a lot about tank hygiene in a hurry earlier in the
> year.
>
> best of luck,
> --
> sophie

I believe water in the UK has high Nitrates right out of the tap, something
like 60 PPM, so water changes may not help much.

[Fuzzy Orange]

sophie wrote:
> If none has been changed for three weeks after moving house this might
> be your problem; also if you added three new fish you've doubled the
> bio-load on an already overstretched system (your stocking levels are a
> fair bit higher than recommended) and the filter isn't coping with the
> extra waste. Did you notice vaguely cloudy white water at any point?
>
> Basically, your water has been getting slowly more toxic over the last
> three weeks. You should probably do fifty percent water changes daily
> (and do use something to get rid of the chlorine) for a while and then
> keep a close eye on your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels. If you do
> intend to keep all those fish in that tank (which no-one here will
> recommend, btw!) you're going to have to be absolutely religious about
> water changes and you will need to under- rather than over-feed.
>
> The white spots could be Ich, I'm not sure - you'd need someone who
> knows more about stuff than me to deal with that one...

Are you serious?

The tank is nearly 3 foot long and has 6 fish in it - it looks nearly
empty!!

[sophie]

In message >, Fuzzy Orange
> writes
>sophie wrote:
> > If none has been changed for three weeks after moving house this might
>> be your problem; also if you added three new fish you've doubled the
>>bio-load on an already overstretched system (your stocking levels are
>>a fair bit higher than recommended) and the filter isn't coping with
>>the extra waste. Did you notice vaguely cloudy white water at any point?
>> Basically, your water has been getting slowly more toxic over the
>>last three weeks. You should probably do fifty percent water changes
>>daily (and do use something to get rid of the chlorine) for a while
>>and then keep a close eye on your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels. If
>>you do intend to keep all those fish in that tank (which no-one here
>>will recommend, btw!) you're going to have to be absolutely religious
>>about water changes and you will need to under- rather than over-feed.
>> The white spots could be Ich, I'm not sure - you'd need someone who
>>knows more about stuff than me to deal with that one...
>
>Are you serious?
>
>The tank is nearly 3 foot long and has 6 fish in it - it looks nearly
>empty!!

'fraid so. (it's a _really_ common misconception, if that's any
consolation; I made exactly the same mistake. only worse!)
your tank is about 28/29 US gallons. goldfish out to have - wait for it
- 10 US gallons per fish, due in part to the amount of waste they
produce which is gigantic compared to most other fish. It's really hard
for an aquarium to have a relatively stable ecology with a high
goldfish-load. (I think plecos are pretty bad, too) The other reason for
this is that you need to bear the adult size of a healthy goldfish in
mind, which can be a foot. Six foot-long fish in a three-foot tank would
be kind of unkind...

I like the idea of space in the tank (crowds give me claustrophobia),
but on the other hand I've chosen to out three goldfish in a four foot
tank. I could fit in another one and a half (!) if I wanted to, but
instead I've got a small school of WCM minnows, which are sweet, and
have weather loaches in quarantine waiting to join them for a bit of
variety. They also make the tank look more interesting, not to mention
fuller. Goldfish purists will disagree with me, I think, but this works
_for me_.

Have you been introduced to the nitrogen cycle at any point? if not, it
would probably help your understanding.

hth,

--
sophie

[Fuzzy Orange]

sophie wrote:
> In message >, Fuzzy Orange
> > writes
>
>> sophie wrote:
>> > If none has been changed for three weeks after moving house this might
>>
>>> be your problem; also if you added three new fish you've doubled the
>>> bio-load on an already overstretched system (your stocking levels are
>>> a fair bit higher than recommended) and the filter isn't coping with
>>> the extra waste. Did you notice vaguely cloudy white water at any
>>> point?
>>> Basically, your water has been getting slowly more toxic over the
>>> last three weeks. You should probably do fifty percent water changes
>>> daily (and do use something to get rid of the chlorine) for a while
>>> and then keep a close eye on your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels. If
>>> you do intend to keep all those fish in that tank (which no-one here
>>> will recommend, btw!) you're going to have to be absolutely
>>> religious about water changes and you will need to under- rather
>>> than over-feed.
>>> The white spots could be Ich, I'm not sure - you'd need someone who
>>> knows more about stuff than me to deal with that one...
>>
>>
>> Are you serious?
>>
>> The tank is nearly 3 foot long and has 6 fish in it - it looks nearly
>> empty!!
>
>
> 'fraid so. (it's a _really_ common misconception, if that's any
> consolation; I made exactly the same mistake. only worse!)
> your tank is about 28/29 US gallons. goldfish out to have - wait for it
> - 10 US gallons per fish, due in part to the amount of waste they
> produce which is gigantic compared to most other fish. It's really hard
> for an aquarium to have a relatively stable ecology with a high
> goldfish-load. (I think plecos are pretty bad, too) The other reason for
> this is that you need to bear the adult size of a healthy goldfish in
> mind, which can be a foot. Six foot-long fish in a three-foot tank would
> be kind of unkind...
>
> I like the idea of space in the tank (crowds give me claustrophobia),
> but on the other hand I've chosen to out three goldfish in a four foot
> tank. I could fit in another one and a half (!) if I wanted to, but
> instead I've got a small school of WCM minnows, which are sweet, and
> have weather loaches in quarantine waiting to join them for a bit of
> variety. They also make the tank look more interesting, not to mention
> fuller. Goldfish purists will disagree with me, I think, but this works
> _for me_.
>
> Have you been introduced to the nitrogen cycle at any point? if not, it
> would probably help your understanding.
>
> hth,
>

Thankyou - I appreciate your help so much because I am a beginner to all
this - Ive had fish for a while but never this seriously

The 2 goldfish are 3" long
And one fantail is the same size

Then there are 2 very small fish which a friend bought me only about 1"
long and i've no idea what they are hehe
And then 1 new fantail which has survived from the 3 I bought and this
is only an inch long at the most

I was planning on moving the goldfish next summer to the pond outside
that my neighbour has - as he has a few goldfish in there that are
roughly the same size and they seem quite happy

I've just found a site on the nitrogen cycle - reading it now

- Phil

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Fuzzy Orange wrote:
>
> sophie wrote:
> > If none has been changed for three weeks after moving house this might
> > be your problem; also if you added three new fish you've doubled the
> > bio-load on an already overstretched system (your stocking levels are a
> > fair bit higher than recommended) and the filter isn't coping with the
> > extra waste. Did you notice vaguely cloudy white water at any point?
> >
> > Basically, your water has been getting slowly more toxic over the last
> > three weeks. You should probably do fifty percent water changes daily
> > (and do use something to get rid of the chlorine) for a while and then
> > keep a close eye on your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels. If you do
> > intend to keep all those fish in that tank (which no-one here will
> > recommend, btw!) you're going to have to be absolutely religious about
> > water changes and you will need to under- rather than over-feed.
> >
> > The white spots could be Ich, I'm not sure - you'd need someone who
> > knows more about stuff than me to deal with that one...
>
> Are you serious?
>
> The tank is nearly 3 foot long and has 6 fish in it - it looks nearly
> empty!!

yep - you need a 60 gallon tank for 6 goldfish - they are extremely messy fish
and give off lots of ammonia. Water changes should be done at least once a week.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Bill Stock wrote:
>
>
> I believe water in the UK has high Nitrates right out of the tap, something
> like 60 PPM, so water changes may not help much.

Not in my water it doesn't!!