Weird well water

[Dan Cutter]

I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling" routine.
My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and alkylinity
are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This is
well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from an
established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan

[Billy]

"Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
...
|I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
| cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
routine.
| My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
alkylinity
| are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
is
| well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
| attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
an
| established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan

With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.

What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....


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[Peter Ashby]

Billy > wrote:

> "Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
> ...
> |I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
> | cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
> routine.
> | My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
> alkylinity
> | are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
> is
> | well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
> | attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
> an
> | established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan
>
> With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
> water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.
>
> What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....

Or that high pH and hardness is screwing the bacteria. I would be very
careful with well water without an analysis, might have something nasty
like high copper levels in it. One woman my wife works with is on
borehole water and can't drink or wash in it because it is so acid it is
leaching so much copper from the pipes.

Peter

--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[NetMax]

"Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
...
> I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
> cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling" routine.
> My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and alkylinity
> are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This is
> well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
> attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from an
> established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan

Your well water doesn't look weird to me. Get a proper titration test
kit to determine where your gH and kH are, as this will influence your
fish selection. Unless you have masochistic tendencies you need to work
out, or will be breeding fish from the Amazon, I would not plan to lower
the pH at this time. Figure out what you have and what kind of fish you
will be getting first. There are fish which naturally originate from
hard well water.

Cross-seeding bacteria with old gravel is a good idea, though my
understanding is that some aged filter material would be much better.
Note that bacteria do better in alkaline water than acidic water, so you
know that is not a problem.

The nitrate readings are usually typically from agricultural run off (ie:
cow patties ;~). Unless the level goes high or changes much, it might
just be something to get used to. You can always discuss this with your
municipality. Rural UK has a higher threshold for tolerating NO3 than
most places in rural North America. High levels are associated with
blue-babies and other problems. Even at low levels, it will influence
your ability to decrease the nitrate levels which accumulate in your
tank, as your water changes will have a residual NO3 level in them. For
well planted tanks, this should not be any kind of an issue.

Have your water tested for the other nasties periodically (e.coli etc),
as the presence of NO3 suggests a shallow water table, and/or proximity
to sources of potential diseases which might bear closer scrutiny. UV
filtration might be a consideration (for you, not the aquarium). Doesn't
hurt to have your water checked out.

--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dan Cutter]

(Peter Ashby) wrote in message >...
> Billy > wrote:
>
> > "Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > |I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
> > | cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
> routine.
> > | My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
> alkylinity
> > | are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
> is
> > | well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
> > | attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
> an
> > | established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan
> >
> > With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
> > water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.
> >
> > What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....
>
> Or that high pH and hardness is screwing the bacteria. I would be very
> careful with well water without an analysis, might have something nasty
> like high copper levels in it. One woman my wife works with is on
> borehole water and can't drink or wash in it because it is so acid it is
> leaching so much copper from the pipes.
>
> Peter

I'm using two bio wheels and activated carbon. If my water tests
safe for metals and such, can I add acid to try and nuetralize the
situation? Or is water that hard going to resist a ph change. Dan

[Peter Ashby]

Dan Cutter > wrote:

> (Peter Ashby) wrote in message
>...
> > Billy > wrote:
> >
> > > "Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > |I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
> > > | cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
> > routine.
> > > | My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
> > alkylinity
> > > | are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
> > is
> > > | well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
> > > | attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
> > an
> > > | established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan
> > >
> > > With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
> > > water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.
> > >
> > > What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....
> >
> > Or that high pH and hardness is screwing the bacteria. I would be very
> > careful with well water without an analysis, might have something nasty
> > like high copper levels in it. One woman my wife works with is on
> > borehole water and can't drink or wash in it because it is so acid it is
> > leaching so much copper from the pipes.
> >
> > Peter
>
> I'm using two bio wheels and activated carbon. If my water tests
> safe for metals and such, can I add acid to try and nuetralize the
> situation? Or is water that hard going to resist a ph change. Dan

Your hardness will make that very difficult, I would try a softening
pillow to try and get it down prior to pH adjustment. Is this your only
source of water? If so you will need a separate system to treat the
water for water changes. Unless you are trying to keep African Cichlids
or something that likes those conditions. I wouldn't try keeping neon
tetras in it though. Just a thought, boiling the water might be a good
way of getting those hardness levels down, old brewing trick.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[sophie]

In message >, Peter
Ashby > writes
>Dan Cutter > wrote:
>
>> (Peter Ashby) wrote in message
>...
>> > Billy > wrote:
>> >
>> > > "Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > > |I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
>> > > | cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
>> > routine.
>> > > | My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
>> > alkylinity
>> > > | are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
>> > is
>> > > | well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
>> > > | attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
>> > an
>> > > | established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan
>> > >
>> > > With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
>> > > water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.
>> > >
>> > > What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....
>> >
>> > Or that high pH and hardness is screwing the bacteria. I would be very
>> > careful with well water without an analysis, might have something nasty
>> > like high copper levels in it. One woman my wife works with is on
>> > borehole water and can't drink or wash in it because it is so acid it is
>> > leaching so much copper from the pipes.
>> >
>> > Peter
>>
>> I'm using two bio wheels and activated carbon. If my water tests
>> safe for metals and such, can I add acid to try and nuetralize the
>> situation? Or is water that hard going to resist a ph change. Dan
>
>Your hardness will make that very difficult, I would try a softening
>pillow to try and get it down prior to pH adjustment. Is this your only
>source of water? If so you will need a separate system to treat the
>water for water changes. Unless you are trying to keep African Cichlids
>or something that likes those conditions. I wouldn't try keeping neon
>tetras in it though. Just a thought, boiling the water might be a good
>way of getting those hardness levels down, old brewing trick.
>

isn't hardness a measure of mineral levels in the water? how does
boiling reduce rather than increase that? (I'm not being funny, just
genuinely curious)
--
sophie

[Peter Ashby]

sophie > wrote:

> In message >, Peter
> Ashby > writes
> >Dan Cutter > wrote:
> >
> >> (Peter Ashby) wrote in message
> >...
> >> > Billy > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > "Dan Cutter" > wrote in message
> >> > > ...
> >> > > |I set up a 75 gallon tank two weeks ago at which time I added a half
> >> > > | cup of pure ammonia as I am attemping the "fishless cycling"
> >> > routine.
> >> > > | My test kit shows ammonia at 3ppm, ph at 8.5, hardness and
> >> > alkylinity
> >> > > | are maxxed out. There are no nitrites and a bit of nitrates. This
> >> > is
> >> > > | well water and it tests the same (besides the ammonia). Should I
> >> > > | attempt to bring the ph down? How about importing some gravel from
> >> > an
> >> > > | established tank? Thank you for any help. Dan
> >> > >
> >> > > With well water, people frequently have to turn to bottled or RO
> >> > > water, or stick to inhabitants that can handle the conditions.
> >> > >
> >> > > What filtration is there? Something is screwy with the cycle....
> >> >
> >> > Or that high pH and hardness is screwing the bacteria. I would be very
> >> > careful with well water without an analysis, might have something nasty
> >> > like high copper levels in it. One woman my wife works with is on
> >> > borehole water and can't drink or wash in it because it is so acid it is
> >> > leaching so much copper from the pipes.
> >> >
> >> > Peter
> >>
> >> I'm using two bio wheels and activated carbon. If my water tests
> >> safe for metals and such, can I add acid to try and nuetralize the
> >> situation? Or is water that hard going to resist a ph change. Dan
> >
> >Your hardness will make that very difficult, I would try a softening
> >pillow to try and get it down prior to pH adjustment. Is this your only
> >source of water? If so you will need a separate system to treat the
> >water for water changes. Unless you are trying to keep African Cichlids
> >or something that likes those conditions. I wouldn't try keeping neon
> >tetras in it though. Just a thought, boiling the water might be a good
> >way of getting those hardness levels down, old brewing trick.
> >
>
> isn't hardness a measure of mineral levels in the water? how does
> boiling reduce rather than increase that? (I'm not being funny, just
> genuinely curious)

It's the same principle by which kettle elements fur up in hard water
areas, but at this time of night the exact chemical mechanism escapes
me. I have watched it happen in a pan of London tap water while boiling
it prior to brewing a batch of beer. It might have something to do with
an effect of hot metal surfaces, either as nucleation points or
catalysts.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

sophie wrote:

> isn't hardness a measure of mineral levels in the water? how does
> boiling reduce rather than increase that? (I'm not being funny, just
> genuinely curious)

Hardness is, very roughly speaking, the concentration of certain ions in
the water, mainly calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++). The hardness can
be "temporary" or "permanent".

Temporary hardness means that the counter ion is bicarbonate (HCO3-), if
the water is heated part of that is converted to CO2 (carbon dioxide)
and water:

Ca(HCO3)2 <=> CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O

The carbon dioxide is driven out of the water, the calcium carbonate is
insoluble in water and precipitates as "kettle stone". Thus temporary
hardness can be reduced by boiling, hence the name.

Permanent hardness is caused by heat stable counterions, like sulfate
(SO4--). CaSO4 (plaster) or MgSO4 (bitter salt) for example can not be
precipitated by heating.

Usually you have a mixture of both in natural water. You can get test
kits in your LFS to measure these params, as well as others (pH, nitrate
(NO3-), nitrite (NO2-), ammonia (NH4+) and phosphate (PO4---) are the
most important, for a planted tank also iron (Fe++). This is a usefull
investment if you want to keep your fishes healthy but keep the
chemicals out of reach of children.

If you have problems in your tank and ask for help on this NG it would
help if you gave these measurements, the size of your tank and the kind
of fishes you keep. That gives experienced aquarists a good idea of the
situation.