Winterizing Pond - Heaters

[MC]

After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions are:

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi

[Roy]

On 28 Sep 2004 13:21:03 -0700, (MC) wrote:

>===<>After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>===<>floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>===<>pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>===<>escape. My questions are:
>===<>
>===<>1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>===<>it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>===<>it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>===<>wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>===<>
>===<>2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>===<>it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>===<>anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>===<>"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi


No, an aquarium type heater is not going to burn anything inside a
pond enclosure, and your liner should be safe. There is just too much
mass that acts like a giant heatsink along with outside temps for thr
heater to reach any temps capable of hurting fish, liner etc. Look at
it this way, your gas furnace or even your electric furnace gets
pretty darn hot, but air ocming out of it is nowhere near the temp of
what the air is after its heated in the furnace combustion chambers
plenum or goes across the heating elements all due to the quanities
and masses of the duct work etc, same thing for the aquarium heater,
it will never get caughtup to a tmp capable of doing pond any damage,
expecially in cold weather.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[George]

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> escape. My questions are:
>
> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>
> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
>
>
> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi

You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking
of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more
efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the
surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all
the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more
information on pond de-icers:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

The one I have is the green one.

Good luck.

[Janet]

--

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> escape. My questions are:
>
> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>
> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
>
>
> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi

I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the
solar blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice
at all. The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use
a stock tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going
to do it...
Janet in Niagara Falls

[George]

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> --
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
>> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> escape. My questions are:
>>
>> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>>
>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>>
>>
>>
>> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>
> I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar
> blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all.
> The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock
> tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do
> it...
> Janet in Niagara Falls

The de-icer worked great for me.

[Derek Broughton]

MC wrote:

> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond.
I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of
suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a
pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter.
in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600
gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter
too. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
>After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>escape. My questions are:
>
>1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>
>2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
>
>
>FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Gareee©]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> MC wrote:
>
>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.


How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.


--
Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net)
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Derek Broughton]

Gareee© wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> MC wrote:
>>
>>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>>
>> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
>> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
>> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.
>
>
> How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
> number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.
--
derek

[MC]

I had a pond deicer last year. It didn't work in Chicago. I wound up
having to bring the fish in at the last minute. Also, I believe
Chicago is too cold for a pond of my depth without a heater. A decicer
does nothing to the water temperature at the bottom of the pond where
the fish are. Koi do not hibernate. Ultra cold water is not good for
them.



"George" > wrote in message >...
> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
> > After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> > floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> > pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> > escape. My questions are:
> >
> > 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> > it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> > it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> > wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >
> > 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> > it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> > anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> > "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>
> You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are asking
> of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more
> efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the
> surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on all
> the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more
> information on pond de-icers:
>
> http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>
> The one I have is the green one.
>
> Good luck.

[MC]

Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations.
Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate.

"George" > wrote in message >...
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "MC" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> >> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> >> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> >> escape. My questions are:
> >>
> >> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> >> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> >> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> >> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >>
> >> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
> >
> > I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the solar
> > blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at all.
> > The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock
> > tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do
> > it...
> > Janet in Niagara Falls
>
> The de-icer worked great for me.

[Gareee©]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Gareee© wrote:
>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> MC wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>>>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>>>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>>>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>>>
>>> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
>>> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
>>> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.
>>
>>
>> How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have
>> a
>> number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.
>
> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
> with
> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
> 6-12" below the waterline.

Thanks, Derek. I'll save this, and try that this year. We didn' get near as
much snow as I thought we would last year, but we've had a ton of rain this
year, so we might get more cold, and more snow as well.

--
Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net)
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Janet]

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can
be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very
suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls

--

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
> Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
> allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations.
> Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate.
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > "MC" > wrote in message
>> > om...
>> >> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> >> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> >> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> >> escape. My questions are:
>> >>
>> >> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>> >> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>> >> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> >> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>> >>
>> >> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> >> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> >> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> >> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>> >
>> > I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the
>> > solar
>> > blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at
>> > all.
>> > The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a
>> > stock
>> > tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to
>> > do
>> > it...
>> > Janet in Niagara Falls
>>
>> The de-icer worked great for me.

[Gareee©]

> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...

>> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>> with
>> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
>> 6-12" below the waterline.

Will a fountain run winter long, and also help add oxygen as well?

We have a 2 ft tall gargoyle fountain that might help prevent ice formation,
and increase oxy flow...


--
Gareee© (Gareee "at" Charter "dot" net)
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/ellison/86/mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

[Lt. Kizhe Catson]

Derek Broughton > wrote in message >...
> Gareee© wrote:
>
> > "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> MC wrote:
> >>
> >>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >>
> >> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
> >> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
> >> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.
> >
> >
> > How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
> > number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.
>
> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
> 6-12" below the waterline.

Or go for the belt AND suspenders approach, and use both.

My pond is shallow enough to freeze solid in Ottawa, so for heating I
use a 60'/300W length of eaves de-icing cable (available at HD). I
just spread it roughly around the bottom when I "close down" the pond,
then plug it in when it starts to freeze. I also bought about the
biggest aquarium air pump I could find, and run that straight out the
end of the plastic air-line (I don't use an airstone; I don't know
honestly know whether getting max flow or finer bubbles is more
important). The end of the airline is threaded through a brick so it
sits near the bottom. The hole still sometimes freezes over during
January cold snaps (I'm not too worried, as I figure if the air is
going in, it must also be coming back out somewhere....). Note that
my objective isn't to keep the entire pond open: just to prevent it
from freezing all the way to the bottom, and have one hole for gas
exchange.

-- Kizhe

[MC]

A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.

Derek Broughton > wrote in message >...
> MC wrote:
>
> > 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> > it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> > anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> > "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.

[MC]

I plan on definitely using a air pump to provide oxygen. I tried
suspending one below the surface 2 years from a floating piece of
foam. When it got really cold, it froze and didn't keep a hole open.

One thing that helped keep a hole open and was cheap to run was my
submersible halogen pond light. I suspended it a little below the
surface and it it generated enough heat except in the very coldest
part of winter.



wrote in message >...
> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
> suspend it from something over the pond.
> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of
> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a
> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter.
> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600
> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter
> too. Ingrid
>
> (MC) wrote:
> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> >escape. My questions are:
> >
> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >
> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >
> >
> >
> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[MC]

-25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the
wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How
does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing?

Derek Broughton > wrote in message >...
> Gareee© wrote:
>
> > "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> MC wrote:
> >>
> >>> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >>> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >>> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >>> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >>
> >> 40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
> >> your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
> >> freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.
> >
> >
> > How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
> > number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.
>
> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
> 6-12" below the waterline.

[MC]

I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
cover down to the bottom of the pond.

wrote in message >...
> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond liner. or,
> suspend it from something over the pond.
> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find some way of
> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket filter with a
> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the winter.
> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the winter. my 1600
> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days all winter
> too. Ingrid
>
> (MC) wrote:
> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> >escape. My questions are:
> >
> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >
> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >
> >
> >
> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[RichToyBox]

Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting
stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature
of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are
functional year round.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"MC" > wrote in message
om...
>I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
> night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
> full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
> cover down to the bottom of the pond.
>
> wrote in message
> >...
>> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
>> liner. or,
>> suspend it from something over the pond.
>> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find
>> some way of
>> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
>> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
>> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
>> filter with a
>> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
>> winter.
>> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
>> winter. my 1600
>> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days
>> all winter
>> too. Ingrid
>>
>> (MC) wrote:
>> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> >escape. My questions are:
>> >
>> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>> >
>> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>> www.drsolo.com
>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Rick]

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> escape. My questions are:
>
> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>
> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>
>
>
> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi


I am no expert at this. In fact I am a first year ponder. I have been
lurking in this group for six months or so and have read several book on
ponding. So for what it's worth here is my advise.
I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like
the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the
pond from freezing over completely. I live in central MO 1200 gallons 26"
deep, don't know the zone. I have been told that you should not run the pump
in the winter it will mix all the different layers of water disturbing that
warm layer at the bottom. Yes the warm water is at the bottom. If it where
on top the pond would freeze from the bottom up. This is also why you only
put the bubbler about six " below the service. As fare as the filter you
really don't need it either, you stop feeding the fish at a water temp of 45
degrease . so there is little to no litter from them that the bubbler can't
handle and algae is not going to form at those temps either. The fish stay
at the bottom where the water is warmest and seam to do OK even the Koi.
Don't start to feed the fish again before the water temp goes above 45-50
degrease and will stay there. Fish don't digest food under 45 degrease and
the undigested food can harm, or even kill them.
What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal
and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond.
The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about doing
this?

[2pods]

"Rick" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
<Snippage>
> What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my Marginal
> and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the pond.
> The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
> doing
> this?
>
I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got it
before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost

Peter

[[email protected]]

I kept a hole open all winter with:
small maxi 1000 water pump with hose running water just over one of those flat
aluminum bird bath heaters http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/mypond/winters/pondheater.html
the pond is a small preformed 220 gallon.
I have kept a hole open with two large round airstones on a kmart double outlet air
pump positioned right above a 100 watt heater.
my problem is when the electricity goes out. that is why I went to the covered pond.
then I decided I didnt like my fish going without food that long. that is when I
bought the 500 watt.
now AES is on BACK ORDER. !!!!!
Ingrid

(MC) wrote:

>A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
>Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.
>
>A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
>gallon pond as a rule of thumb. I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
>That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
>I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
>insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[S. M. Henning]

(MC) wrote:

> My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
> cover down to the bottom of the pond.

Snow and ice float.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[Derek Broughton]

MC wrote:

> A bubbler won't do anything in really cold weather. The water freezes.
> Even running a waterfall, it will freeze in really cold weather.

You're kidding me? I could have sworn I had a hole in the ice surface all
winter. A bubbler will work in any weather I've had to encounter in zone 6
- for you, you might have to resort to something else for three or four
days.
>
> A 300 watt heater will raise the water temp 10 degrees for a 300
> gallon pond as a rule of thumb.

That might just barely work in an aquarium in a house, where you're not
dealing with a solid-gas phase change. Remember, it takes 40 times the
energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water
1 degree.

> I am planning on 2 300 watt heaters.
> That should raise the temp about 15-20 degrees with the solar cover.
> I would expect at 30 inches below ground with the ground acting as an
> insulater, It will keep the temp above 40.

Even if I were to accept your numbers, 600W x 24hours x 50days (my guess at
the number of sub-freezing days you're going to be faced with in Zone5) =
720KWh to run those heaters over the winter. Considering that I currently
have an _annual_ electricity consumption of about 500KWh, and your average
household uses 100-200KWh, monthly, that sounds completely out of whack.
--
derek

[Jerry Donovan]

"Rick" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like
> the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the
> pond from freezing over completely.

Actually, it doesn't even need to keep a hole open in the ice.
The main purpose of the bubbler is to make sure that gases
from rotting vegetation and other wastes do not become
trapped and build up some concentration level of those gases.

If bubbles are being added to the water and they are escaping
somewhere (like around the edges), then they will take the gases
with them.

If the gases are not escaping, the the pond will build up pressure
until it explodes. Stand back! :-) (not really)

Unless your fish need slightly warmer water (and it will only be
slightly), the heater is totally unnecessary and a waste of energy.

I live in northern Colorado. On my little pond the bubbles create
interesting volcano type mounds. When it gets really cold, those
close up and the gases escape around the edges somewhere.

Jerry

[Derek Broughton]

MC wrote:

> -25C is about -13F. You must get great sun and be protected from the
> wind. I've seen 4 foot high waterfalls freeze in temps that cold. How
> does a small air bubbler keep the water from freezing?
>
>> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>> with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones,
>> suspended 6-12" below the waterline.

I don't have a clue :-) I do know that they use bubblers in the Great Lakes
to keep marina berths ice free, and for some of the ferries on Lake
Ontario.

I did have great sun, but I wasn't protected from the wind. In stormy
weather you'd sometimes get enough slush to block the hole faster than the
bubbler could clear it, so it requires a little manual assistance, but it's
storms (generally at close to freezing temps) not extreme cold that are the
bigger problem with the bubbler.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Gareee© wrote:

>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>>> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>>> with
>>> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
>>> 6-12" below the waterline.
>
> Will a fountain run winter long, and also help add oxygen as well?
>
> We have a 2 ft tall gargoyle fountain that might help prevent ice
> formation, and increase oxy flow...

I shouldn't think so. A fountain just provides a bigger air-contact
surface, and encourages quicker freezing. A bubbler will create a very
small hole - mine was always in the 2-6" range.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

about 80 times
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/wsFALL2004/matter/states_of_matter.html
Ingrid

Remember, it takes 40 times the
>energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water
>1 degree.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Heather]

Hi Rich:

What is the coldest you get and for how long? We are considering covering
the pond this year. Partly to keep it warmer but mostly to keep six months
of dust, dirt etc out. Should make spring cleaning easier even if it's not
so pretty in the winter.

Heather


"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
news:2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01...
> Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
> dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
> blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
> the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly
sheeting
> stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
> maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature
> of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters
are
> functional year round.
> --
> RichToyBox
> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
>
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
> >I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
> > night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
> > full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
> > cover down to the bottom of the pond.
> >
> > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
> >> liner. or,
> >> suspend it from something over the pond.
> >> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water.
find
> >> some way of
> >> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
> >> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
> >> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
> >> filter with a
> >> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
> >> winter.
> >> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
> >> winter. my 1600
> >> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few
days
> >> all winter
> >> too. Ingrid
> >>
> >> (MC) wrote:
> >> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> >> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> >> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> >> >escape. My questions are:
> >> >
> >> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> >> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> >> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> >> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >> >
> >> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> >> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> >> www.drsolo.com
> >> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> >> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> >> endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> about 80 times
> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/wsFALL2004/matter/states_of_matter.html
> Ingrid
>
> Remember, it takes 40 times the
>>energy to change ice to water as it does to raise the temperature of water
>>1 degree.

drat. It's been way too long since high school.
--
derek

[George]

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
>I had a pond deicer last year. It didn't work in Chicago. I wound up
> having to bring the fish in at the last minute. Also, I believe
> Chicago is too cold for a pond of my depth without a heater. A decicer
> does nothing to the water temperature at the bottom of the pond where
> the fish are. Koi do not hibernate. Ultra cold water is not good for
> them.
>

That is why ponds should be dug to at least six inches below the frost line - to
insure that they don't freeze completely solid. As for ultra cold water, I
don't know what you mean by this, as water freezes at 32 F. My pond, with a
de-icer, only had about 1/16th of an inch of ice on if for about two days last
year, and that was only at one end of the pond. The water below the surface
never got below 39 degrees, and my Koi, goldfish, and channel catfish all did
just fine. I didn't lose any fish at all. My pond is 45" deep (18" above
ground, 27" below), while the frost line here in Louisville is at 22". Koi will
stop eating below a certain temperature (some say below 50-54 degrees F). Mine
stopped eating below 50 F. So while they may not hibernate in the sense that a
bear will hibernate, they do become lethargic, and greatly reduce their
activity. This is normal behavior for temperate fish in winter.

>
> "George" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "MC" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> > floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> > pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> > escape. My questions are:
>> >
>> > 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>> > it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>> > it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> > wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>> >
>> > 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> > it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> > anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> > "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>>
>> You'd have to have one hell of an aquarium heater to do the job you are
>> asking
>> of it. On the other hand, there are products out there that do the job more
>> efficiently. I use a pond de-icer. It only raises the temperature at the
>> surface to a level that will keep most of the pond ice-free, so it isn't on
>> all
>> the time, and saves on the electrical bill. Check out this web page for more
>> information on pond de-icers:
>>
>> http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm
>>
>> The one I have is the green one.
>>
>> Good luck.

[George]

"MC" > wrote in message
om...
> Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
> allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations.
> Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate.

Below 50-54 F they will stop, or greatly reduce their feeding (most of the
microbes that aid in digestion go dormant under winter conditions, so unless the
food is easy to digest, they won't get much benefit from it anyway) and greatly
reduce their activity. Whether that is called hibernation or not, it is a
normal reaction of temperate fish to winter conditions. Mine did just that, and
they managed last winter just fine. If the water temperature was above 50 F, I
threw in a little food. If not, I left them alone. Fish can go for weeks
without eating in winter because of their reduced metabolism. They are, after
all, cold blooded. As for the de-icer, I agree that they don't work in all
conditions. But they certainly will not work efficiently in most any cold
region if the depth of the pond is above the recommended depth for a given
region (usually six inches or more below the frost line). That is a
design/construction issue. If this is the case with your pond, then you may
have to spend more money on alternative heating systems, which can be expensive
both to purchase, and to operate. Either that, or be prepared to remove your
fish from the pond and bring them inside for the winter (not a good choice, but
maybe the only one in some cases).

> "George" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > "MC" > wrote in message
>> > om...
>> >> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> >> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> >> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> >> escape. My questions are:
>> >>
>> >> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>> >> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>> >> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> >> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>> >>
>> >> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> >> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> >> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> >> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>> >
>> > I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the
>> > solar
>> > blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at
>> > all.
>> > The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a stock
>> > tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do
>> > it...
>> > Janet in Niagara Falls
>>
>> The de-icer worked great for me.

[George]

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
> do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can be
> a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very
> suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
> Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls
>

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/over-wintering.asp
The metabolism of koi and goldfish is controlled primarily by water temperature.
As the water cools, pond fish require less protein in their diet. When koi and
goldfish are fed high-protein food in cool water, the excess protein is excreted
as ammonia from the gills. The microscopic organisms that make up the biological
filter (and consume ammonia) also slow down in cooler water. Improper seasonal
feeding can lead to a build-up of toxic ammonia, which stresses fish and reduces
their winter survivability. When the water temperature drops to approximately
65° F, start feeding with Spring & Autumn Pond Food. This type of fish food is
better suited for the dietary requirements of pond fish in cool water and won't
pollute the water with excess ammonia. Some water gardeners continue to feed
their fish until they no longer come to the surface. I stop feeding my pond fish
when the water falls below 42° F.

There is no need to worry about "frozen fish" if a section of the pond is at
least 18 inches deep. Pond fish will seek the deepest part of the pond and
over-winter there until the water warms in the spring. If your pond is less than
18 inches deep, the fish may freeze during a harsh winter. Check with your local
pond supplier if you live in an area with harsh winters. Water gardeners with
shallow ponds can keep their koi and goldfish in kiddie pools or aquariums set
up in a cool basement or garage. All that is required is an aquarium air pump or
small fountain to provide oxygenation. The fish are fed infrequently, if at all,
depending on the water temperature. pH, ammonia and nitrite should be monitored
weekly, especially if the fish are fed. Small water changes (20%) each month
will keep the water in good shape until spring. Koi are "jumpers"-so be sure to
cover the pool with bird netting!

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pdmaintwint.htm

Fishes: Koi, goldfish, natives and other cold-water fishes may over-winter in
your system; providing that some of the surface

area does not freeze over completely. If your fishes are fat and healthy in the
fall, their metabolisms will be depressed enough accordingly to prevent
mortality. The rule with dealing with livestock especially during the winter is
the less disturbed the better. Instances of high mortalities are almost always
attributable to poor design, overcrowding or inadequate cleaning before the cold
season; or handling them after.

Livestock should not be fed below a temperature of 50 degrees F.; The fish may
seem interested and eat, but be unableto use the food and consequently the water
will be fouled. Partial water changes should be of small volume, if any,
infrequent and literally dripped refilled. Prior to cold water hibernation your
fish(es) should have been well fed, checked for disease and disinfected if
necessary.

Here is a link to some folks who overwinter their koi in Ontario:

http://backyardpuddle.aaquaria.com/season.html


> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Again, if the combination of your climate and depth of your pond
>> allows, a deicer is great, but I don't think it fits all situations.
>> Contrary to what many people think, Koi don't hibernate.
>>
>> "George" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > "MC" > wrote in message
>>> > om...
>>> >> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>>> >> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>>> >> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>>> >> escape. My questions are:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
>>> >> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
>>> >> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>>> >> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>>> >> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>>> >> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>>> >> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>>> >
>>> > I'll agree with George here. We have a pool and last winter we left the
>>> > solar
>>> > blanket underneath the black winter tarp. It's didn't lessen the ice at
>>> > all.
>>> > The solar blanket just froze intot he ice. I'm in zone 6b and I use a
>>> > stock
>>> > tank de-icer in the pond. I don't think the aquarium heater is going to do
>>> > it...
>>> > Janet in Niagara Falls
>>>
>>> The de-icer worked great for me.
>
>

[Derek Broughton]

Janet wrote:

> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.

No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never my
problem, herons were.
--
derek

[Roy]

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:05:10 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>===<>Janet wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
>===<>> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.
>===<>
>===<>No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
>===<>both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never my
>===<>problem, herons were.


I dunno about Koi not doing good in cold waters. When I lived up north
in Pennsylvania, I often went to Hershey Park and they have thousands
of Koi in thir various ponds and streams and that water gets cold.
Same thing for Knobels Grove, near Elysburg Pa. There stream that goes
into th park is a just plaian cold and it freezes along the edges etc
during winter. They have some of it diverted to go through thre park
grounds and evenm on the hottest day of summer that waster was like
ice.......and their koi have always done great.....perhpas the
supplement of Popcorn, candy apples and french fries, hot dogs and ice
cream cones has something to do with that, as they sure consume a lot
of it at those two places during the summer months ;-)
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[RichToyBox]

I am zone 7a/7b. Richmond VA. Temperatures don't fall enough before
Christmas to stop feeding if you don't heat or cover. The ice forms on
others ponds for a couple of days to a week at a time, during late January
and February. The ponds are back up to about 50 by early April. The covers
give me enough solar heating to keep the pond above 50, or I think it would.
I may be trying a reduced heating cycle this year, and let the pond go to 50
degrees after the temperatures get cold enough for the pond to go down once
and stay down. I don't like the cycling up and down.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Heather" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Rich:
>
> What is the coldest you get and for how long? We are considering covering
> the pond this year. Partly to keep it warmer but mostly to keep six
> months
> of dust, dirt etc out. Should make spring cleaning easier even if it's
> not
> so pretty in the winter.
>
> Heather
>
>
> "RichToyBox" > wrote in message
> news:2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01...
>> Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
>> dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
>> blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
>> the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly
> sheeting
>> stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
>> maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a
>> temperature
>> of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters
> are
>> functional year round.
>> --
>> RichToyBox
>> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
>>
>>
>> "MC" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> >I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
>> > night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
>> > full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
>> > cover down to the bottom of the pond.
>> >
>> > wrote in message
>> > >...
>> >> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
>> >> liner. or,
>> >> suspend it from something over the pond.
>> >> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water.
> find
>> >> some way of
>> >> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold
>> >> snow.
>> >> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
>> >> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
>> >> filter with a
>> >> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
>> >> winter.
>> >> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
>> >> winter. my 1600
>> >> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few
> days
>> >> all winter
>> >> too. Ingrid
>> >>
>> >> (MC) wrote:
>> >> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
>> >> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>> >> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>> >> >escape. My questions are:
>> >> >
>> >> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would
>> >> >imagine
>> >> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I
>> >> >suspend
>> >> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>> >> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>> >> >
>> >> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>> >> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>> >> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>> >> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>> >> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>> >> www.drsolo.com
>> >> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>> >> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>> >> endorsements or recommendations I make.
>>
>>
>
>

[Bill Stock]

"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "MC" > wrote in message
> > om...
> <Snippage>
> > What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my
Marginal
> > and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the
pond.
> > The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
> > doing
> > this?
> >
> I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got it
> before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost
>
> Peter
>

Where are you located Peter?

I brought my Water Hyacinth inside today and it doesn't look too bad. Also
brought the Hornwort inside, boy did it do well in the pond. I'm in Toronto
BTW.

Damn bird netting isn't keeping the leaves out though. Time for Plan B.

[2pods]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
>> > What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my
> Marginal
>> > and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the
> pond.
>> > The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
>> > doing
>> > this?
>> >
>> I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got it
>> before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost
>>
>> Peter
>>
>
> Where are you located Peter?
>
> I brought my Water Hyacinth inside today and it doesn't look too bad. Also
> brought the Hornwort inside, boy did it do well in the pond. I'm in
> Toronto
> BTW.
>
> Damn bird netting isn't keeping the leaves out though. Time for Plan B.


Unfortunately I'm in Scotland.
My water hyacinth has long gone :-(

My netting is the same, though I saw really fine netting at the local garden
centre last weekend which looks as if it might be better.

What's Plan B, and should we be worried ;-) ?

Peter

[Janet]

--

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Janet wrote:
>
>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
>> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.
>
> No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
> both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never
> my
> problem, herons were.
> --
> derek

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but not koi. Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

[Janet]

Responses in post...

--

"George" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
>> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make
>> it but it can be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state
>> they are very suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
>> Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls
>>
>
> http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/over-wintering.asp
> The metabolism of koi and goldfish is controlled primarily by water
> temperature. As the water cools, pond fish require less protein in their
> diet. When koi and goldfish are fed high-protein food in cool water, the
> excess protein is excreted as ammonia from the gills. The microscopic
> organisms that make up the biological filter (and consume ammonia) also
> slow down in cooler water. Improper seasonal feeding can lead to a
> build-up of toxic ammonia, which stresses fish and reduces their winter
> survivability. When the water temperature drops to approximately 65° F,
> start feeding with Spring & Autumn Pond Food. This type of fish food is
> better suited for the dietary requirements of pond fish in cool water and
> won't pollute the water with excess ammonia. Some water gardeners continue
> to feed their fish until they no longer come to the surface. I stop
> feeding my pond fish when the water falls below 42° F.
>
> There is no need to worry about "frozen fish" if a section of the pond is
> at least 18 inches deep. Pond fish will seek the deepest part of the pond
> and over-winter there until the water warms in the spring. If your pond is
> less than 18 inches deep, the fish may freeze during a harsh winter.

This *may* be true in some areas but definitely not true in zones 4-7
without heating the pond!


Check with your local
> pond supplier if you live in an area with harsh winters.

This is almost too funny to actually respond to, most pond stores know
absolutely nothing about actually keeping fish, let alone koi or what it
takes to have a proper koi pond..<sigh>...


Water gardeners with
> shallow ponds can keep their koi and goldfish in kiddie pools or aquariums
> set up in a cool basement or garage. All that is required is an aquarium
> air pump or small fountain to provide oxygenation.

What about filtration???? There is a reason koi are nicknamed pond pigs.


The fish are fed infrequently, if at all,
> depending on the water temperature. pH, ammonia and nitrite should be
> monitored weekly, especially if the fish are fed. Small water changes
> (20%) each month will keep the water in good shape until spring. Koi are
> "jumpers"-so be sure to cover the pool with bird netting!
>
> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pdmaintwint.htm
>
> Fishes: Koi, goldfish, natives and other cold-water fishes may over-winter
> in your system; providing that some of the surface
>
> area does not freeze over completely. If your fishes are fat and healthy
> in the fall, their metabolisms will be depressed enough accordingly to
> prevent mortality. The rule with dealing with livestock especially during
> the winter is the less disturbed the better. Instances of high mortalities
> are almost always attributable to poor design, overcrowding or inadequate
> cleaning before the cold season; or handling them after.
>
> Livestock should not be fed below a temperature of 50 degrees F.; The fish
> may seem interested and eat, but be unableto use the food and consequently
> the water will be fouled. Partial water changes should be of small volume,
> if any, infrequent and literally dripped refilled.

We know that the term "hibernation" is no longer true in regards to koi...

Prior to cold water hibernation your
> fish(es) should have been well fed, checked for disease and disinfected if
> necessary.
>
> Here is a link to some folks who overwinter their koi in Ontario:
>
> http://backyardpuddle.aaquaria.com/season.html
>
>

This my absolutely favourite part.... I happen to know these folks from a
respectable koi forum. She's actually quite amused that you would try to use
their site to support keeping koi in an unheated pond, especially because
that pond in the pics is a 24 inch watergarden, not a koi pond. They bring
their fish in for the winter. She is now adding information to that site so
that their position on this issue will be clear to all who view that site. I
would suggest though that the Canadian koi keepers check out the link page
on that site for their commercial site, it's one of the best (if not only!)
for some speciality items in Canada.

MC, come over the http://www.koiphen.com and ask your questions about
keeping your koi outside over the winter. Personally I don't think they will
do well if they happen to make it through. 30 inches isn't deep enough for
zone 5. I won't even get into the 6 koi in 500 gallons, I think you already
know that is far from an ideal situation for koi. The folks from the website
George posted above post there as well as several very knowlegable
koikichi's. Most are heading off to Japan shortly for the fall harvest so
talk to them before they go. :o)

Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

>>>> > "MC" > wrote in message
>>>> > om...
>>>> >> After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool
>>>> >> cover
>>>> >> floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
>>>> >> pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
>>>> >> escape. My questions are:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would
>>>> >> imagine
>>>> >> it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I
>>>> >> suspend
>>>> >> it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
>>>> >> wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>>>> >> it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>>>> >> anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>>>> >> "heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
>>>> >

[Bill Stock]

"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> > What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my
> > Marginal
> >> > and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the
> > pond.
> >> > The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
> >> > doing
> >> > this?
> >> >
> >> I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got
it
> >> before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >
> > Where are you located Peter?
> >
> > I brought my Water Hyacinth inside today and it doesn't look too bad.
Also
> > brought the Hornwort inside, boy did it do well in the pond. I'm in
> > Toronto
> > BTW.
> >
> > Damn bird netting isn't keeping the leaves out though. Time for Plan B.
>
>
> Unfortunately I'm in Scotland.
> My water hyacinth has long gone :-(
>
> My netting is the same, though I saw really fine netting at the local
garden
> centre last weekend which looks as if it might be better.
>
> What's Plan B, and should we be worried ;-) ?

It involves a plasma weapon and the neighbour's small leaved tree. :)

Or maybe I'll just build a frame (5x9) and cover it with window screen.



> Peter
>
>

[2pods]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "2pods" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> What's Plan B, and should we be worried ;-) ?
>
> It involves a plasma weapon and the neighbour's small leaved tree. :)
>
> Or maybe I'll just build a frame (5x9) and cover it with window screen.

can I have the plasma weapon ?
We already have the neighbour's tree ;->

Peter

[Derek Broughton]

Janet wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Janet wrote:
>>
>>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
>>> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.
>>
>> No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
>> both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F.**Weather*was*never
>> my
>> problem, herons were.
>
> Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
> but**not*koi.*

Check your facts. Koi _are_ carp.

> Most*of*the*vigor*has*been*bred*out*of*koi*over*th e*last
> couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
> don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
> that are greenhouses...**Post*some*of*these*theories*on*som e*of*the*koi
> forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
> theories and myths point by point...

Which _theories_? I've cited two facts no koikichi could argue with. Koi
are closely related to goldfish (I'd even say those carefully bred Japanese
koi are a lot more hardy than the carefully bred Chinese goldfish, but that
can be safely classed as a theory). They can even interbreed (and produce
sterile offspring - an indication of the closeness of the relationship).
And, Koi _can_ do fine in water under 40F. I kept koi in an unheated pond
in zone 6 for years. Admittedly, it was 5' deep at its deepest and I would
hesitate to suggest an 18" deep pond in zone 5. I also never owned
expensive koi - I wouldn't risk them through an Ontario winter, either.

It's true that you have to be careful with them in the spring as the water
warms up and the fishes immune systems are slow to react - but that problem
exists between 40 & 50F too.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

YES!!! that is when fish really get into trouble.
I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5 and
colder. Ingrid

"RichToyBox" > wrote:
I don't like the cycling up and down.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Janet]

--

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Janet wrote:
>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Janet wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
>>>> absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.
>>>
>>> No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and
>>> they
>>> both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never
>>> my
>>> problem, herons were.
>>
>> Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
>> but not koi.
>
> Check your facts. Koi _are_ carp.

Yes Derek, koi are carp but they definitely are not wild carp...<sigh>...
>
>> Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
>> couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
>> don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
>> that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
>> forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
>> theories and myths point by point...
>
> Which _theories_? I've cited two facts no koikichi could argue with. Koi
> are closely related to goldfish (I'd even say those carefully bred
> Japanese
> koi are a lot more hardy than the carefully bred Chinese goldfish, but
> that
> can be safely classed as a theory).

Any self respecting koikichi will tell you that koi are not closely related
to goldfish....

They can even interbreed (and produce
> sterile offspring - an indication of the closeness of the relationship).
> And, Koi _can_ do fine in water under 40F.

Any koikichi will tell you there is a huge difference between koi making it
though a winter in an unheated pond and koi doing well or even thriving over
the winter... Have you read any of Peter Waddington's work or Steve Childers
or any other of the really superb, well known koikichi's??? I have my copy
of koi2kichi coming, do you?


I kept koi in an unheated pond
> in zone 6 for years. Admittedly, it was 5' deep at its deepest and I
> would
> hesitate to suggest an 18" deep pond in zone 5. I also never owned
> expensive koi - I wouldn't risk them through an Ontario winter, either.
>
> It's true that you have to be careful with them in the spring as the water
> warms up and the fishes immune systems are slow to react - but that
> problem
> exists between 40 & 50F too.
> --
> derek

Janet in Niagara Falls

[Janet]

Thank You Ingrid!!!! I was waiting for you to wade into this one! ;o)
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

--

> wrote in message
...
> YES!!! that is when fish really get into trouble.
> I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
> and
> colder. Ingrid
>
> "RichToyBox" > wrote:
> I don't like the cycling up and down.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

Janet wrote:

> Any self respecting koikichi will tell you that koi are not closely
> related to goldfish....

For heavens sake, then they'd be wrong. No amount of breeding changes the
relationship. See
http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=163342

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

> Any koikichi will tell you there is a huge difference between koi making
> it though a winter in an unheated pond and koi doing well or even thriving
> over the winter... Have you read any of Peter Waddington's work

Yes. It would all depend on how well you _want_ them to do. If I'm trying
to raise a show quality meter-long koi, I'd treat it a darn sight better
than if I am trying to keep half-a-dozen mutt koi. They thrived. They
didn't become beauties, and I'll freely admit they might not even have
looked quite as good in the spring as they did in the fall, but by June
they were in fine shape. There are people here who are raising
show-quality koi, and they have different needs, but most of us are just
keeping ponds.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
> and
> colder. Ingrid

But six months? I doubt even your climate is that bad. In zone 6, S.
Ontario, I had (usually) three months of real cold - ie, when there was any
amount of ice on the surface. Sometime in December (sometimes not 'til
January) until mid-March.
--
derek

[MC]

Water is a better insulater than air. That aside, I have an odd shaped
pond with ground on some sides and raised flower beds on another. This
would make a raised cover much more difficult than throwing a couple
of boards together to make a frame.

"RichToyBox" > wrote in message news:<2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01>...
> Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
> dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
> blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
> the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting
> stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
> maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature
> of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are
> functional year round.
> --
> RichToyBox
> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
>
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> om...
> >I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
> > night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
> > full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
> > cover down to the bottom of the pond.
> >
> > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
> >> liner. or,
> >> suspend it from something over the pond.
> >> I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find
> >> some way of
> >> suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
> >> you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
> >> If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
> >> filter with a
> >> pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
> >> winter.
> >> in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
> >> winter. my 1600
> >> gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days
> >> all winter
> >> too. Ingrid
> >>
> >> (MC) wrote:
> >> >After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
> >> >floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
> >> >pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
> >> >escape. My questions are:
> >> >
> >> >1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
> >> >it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
> >> >it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
> >> >wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?
> >> >
> >> >2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
> >> >it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
> >> >anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
> >> >"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> >> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> >> www.drsolo.com
> >> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> >> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> >> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

MC wrote:

> Water is a better insulater than air.

Er, 'fraid not. Consider - how long do you think you could survive
outdoors, minimally clothed, at 0C/32F? We have it happen often enough
that we know most people will survive overnight. They usually end up in
hospital for hypothermia, but they survive. Now consider how long you will
survive in the ocean at that temperature - 10 to 30 minutes would be about
right. Last week we had somebody die near here who was in the water for
less than that, and it's about 5C right now.

Water's a good conductor, ice less so, and snow is a pretty good insulator
(better than air).
--
derek

[George]

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Responses in post...
>
> --
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi absolutely
>>> do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make it but it can
>>> be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state they are very
>>> suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
>>> Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls
>>>
>>
>> http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/over-wintering.asp
>> The metabolism of koi and goldfish is controlled primarily by water
>> temperature. As the water cools, pond fish require less protein in their
>> diet. When koi and goldfish are fed high-protein food in cool water, the
>> excess protein is excreted as ammonia from the gills. The microscopic
>> organisms that make up the biological filter (and consume ammonia) also slow
>> down in cooler water. Improper seasonal feeding can lead to a build-up of
>> toxic ammonia, which stresses fish and reduces their winter survivability.
>> When the water temperature drops to approximately 65° F, start feeding with
>> Spring & Autumn Pond Food. This type of fish food is better suited for the
>> dietary requirements of pond fish in cool water and won't pollute the water
>> with excess ammonia. Some water gardeners continue to feed their fish until
>> they no longer come to the surface. I stop feeding my pond fish when the
>> water falls below 42° F.
>>
>> There is no need to worry about "frozen fish" if a section of the pond is at
>> least 18 inches deep. Pond fish will seek the deepest part of the pond and
>> over-winter there until the water warms in the spring. If your pond is less
>> than 18 inches deep, the fish may freeze during a harsh winter.
>
> This *may* be true in some areas but definitely not true in zones 4-7 without
> heating the pond!

Which is why I suggested in another post that hweating the pond may be the only
alternative to bringing the fish inside in some area. Having said that, not
everyone lives in those zones. Even so, according to The 2003 US National
Arboretum "Web Version" of the 1990 USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map, I live in
zone 6a (which covers much of Kentucky, where I live), and I've never had any
trouble whatsoever keeping Koi outside. I don't know anyone in my area who
raise Koi who has had serious problems. But then, I know how to raise fish.
I've been raising fish for 35 years. My oldest one is a Phillipines Maroon
Clown fish (Premnas Biaculeatus) that I have in my salt water tank (the female
of the only breeding pair in Kentucky, according to the Kentucky Aquarium
Society). She's 15 years old.

As for my Koi, they do fine in winter conditions. No problems. And I expect no
problems this winter. I use an aerator and a de-icer. But like I said, if it
gets colder where you live, or if your pond is too small or not deep enough, by
all means heat it or bring the fish inside. No one wants frozen fish.

>
> Check with your local
>> pond supplier if you live in an area with harsh winters.
>
> This is almost too funny to actually respond to, most pond stores know
> absolutely nothing about actually keeping fish, let alone koi or what it takes
> to have a proper koi pond..<sigh>...

I'm actually surprised you said this. But then, where I live there are a number
of dealers, and all of them are quite knowledgeble, but I suppose that isn't
true everywhere.

>
> Water gardeners with
>> shallow ponds can keep their koi and goldfish in kiddie pools or aquariums
>> set up in a cool basement or garage. All that is required is an aquarium air
>> pump or small fountain to provide oxygenation.
>
> What about filtration???? There is a reason koi are nicknamed pond pigs.

This is a general guide. Most guides assume that the person reading it has a
general knowledge of how to do these things. But I agree that you should have
filtration if you are going to keep the critters out of the pond for any length
of time. Water changes work for a while, but you risk the fish developing
diseases.

>
> The fish are fed infrequently, if at all,
>> depending on the water temperature. pH, ammonia and nitrite should be
>> monitored weekly, especially if the fish are fed. Small water changes (20%)
>> each month will keep the water in good shape until spring. Koi are
>> "jumpers"-so be sure to cover the pool with bird netting!
>>
>> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/pdmaintwint.htm
>>
>> Fishes: Koi, goldfish, natives and other cold-water fishes may over-winter in
>> your system; providing that some of the surface
>>
>> area does not freeze over completely. If your fishes are fat and healthy in
>> the fall, their metabolisms will be depressed enough accordingly to prevent
>> mortality. The rule with dealing with livestock especially during the winter
>> is the less disturbed the better. Instances of high mortalities are almost
>> always attributable to poor design, overcrowding or inadequate cleaning
>> before the cold season; or handling them after.
>>
>> Livestock should not be fed below a temperature of 50 degrees F.; The fish
>> may seem interested and eat, but be unableto use the food and consequently
>> the water will be fouled. Partial water changes should be of small volume, if
>> any, infrequent and literally dripped refilled.
>
> We know that the term "hibernation" is no longer true in regards to koi...

Read my earlier post regarding this issue.

> Prior to cold water hibernation your
>> fish(es) should have been well fed, checked for disease and disinfected if
>> necessary.
>>
>> Here is a link to some folks who overwinter their koi in Ontario:
>>
>> http://backyardpuddle.aaquaria.com/season.html
>>
>>
>
> This my absolutely favourite part.... I happen to know these folks from a
> respectable koi forum. She's actually quite amused that you would try to use
> their site to support keeping koi in an unheated pond, especially because that
> pond in the pics is a 24 inch watergarden, not a koi pond. They bring their
> fish in for the winter. She is now adding information to that site so that
> their position on this issue will be clear to all who view that site. I would
> suggest though that the Canadian koi keepers check out the link page on that
> site for their commercial site, it's one of the best (if not only!) for some
> speciality items in Canada.

Not everyone lives in Canada, or needs to have their koi pond heated, in case
you didn't notice. I don't live in Canada, but we do have tough winters here
sometimes. And I've never had any trouble keeping my Koi outside in the winter
using these, or modifications of these guidelines. And do note that since she
wrote the information on the web page, if she thinks it is so amusing and
doesn't trust what she wrote, then perhaps she should laugh at herself for
posting it there for others to read and refer to in the first place.

[zookeeper]

MC, check out RTB's raised cover at his web site. A board or PVC pipe frame
may not be as difficult as you might think. There are other web sites that
demonstrate functional frames for different types / sizes / shapes of ponds.
Try Googling rec.ponds or the web. (If I hadn't been hit with a couple
viruses over the past 2 years, I could give you lots of links, but ...)
Actually skip the googling, and check BV's web site,
http://www.iheartmypond.com . [BV: send commission royalties fees to Zk,
;-) ]
HTH
--
Zk
Oregon, USDA Zone 7
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies

"MC" wrote in message
om...
> ... That aside, I have an odd shaped
> pond with ground on some sides and raised flower beds on another. This
> would make a raised cover much more difficult than throwing a couple
> of boards together to make a frame.
>
> "RichToyBox" wrote in message news:<2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01>...
> > Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
> > dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator ...
> > --
> > RichToyBox
> > http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

[[email protected]]

I would say that koi are to wild carp as Toy Poodles are to wolves. yeah, they can
interbreed but there aint no way a toy anything is going to make it "in the wild" and
I agree.... our koi are putzes and dont do great left out in the cold for 6 months of
the year which is why I am heating my pond to keep the temp even and warm for 10-11
months.
the long fin or butterfly koi were the result of an attempt to breed Indonesian carp
into koi and bring in some vigor. I do think the butterfly koi grow faster and seem
heartier. Ingrid

"Janet" > wrote:

>Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
>but not koi. Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
>couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
>don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
>that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
>forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
>theories and myths point by point...
> Janet in sunny Niagara Falls
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

fancy GF can over winter outside in zone 4-5, but there is attrition. the longer the
fins, the rounder the body the less likely they are to survive winter.
they can produce much like a horse and donkey can produce a mule, but they are
different species. Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.
http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=180090
we are both in the family Hominidae
Ingrid

>Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
>Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
>Both belong to the family Cyprinidae


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

I kept record of last time I fed above 50oF, oct. 15 and first time water above 50oF,
april 15. it is the pits. and I live in Milwaukee right next to the lake is more
moderate. INgrid

Derek Broughton > wrote:

wrote:
>
>> I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
>> and
>> colder. Ingrid
>
>But six months? I doubt even your climate is that bad. In zone 6, S.
>Ontario, I had (usually) three months of real cold - ie, when there was any
>amount of ice on the surface. Sometime in December (sometimes not 'til
>January) until mid-March.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

air is better insulator. that is why our jackets have pockets filled with feathers
hold dead air and not pockets filled with water. in air the molecules are very far
apart and dont conduct well. makes em good insulator. Ingrid


>Water is a better insulater than air.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

yes
yes
no

>Water's a good conductor, ice less so, and snow is a pretty good insulator
>(better than air).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I have one comment (at this time) to add to this thread and that's
regarding bio-media dying when temps go below 50F. My understanding from my
KHA class was that our bio-media stay active (granted less so) down to 40F.
At 40F they, like our koi, go dormant (for lack of a better term), the
bacteria supposedly make a protective film and wait for better times.

With this in mind, last year I left one of my bio-chambers in operation
thru the winter with the small pump I use to circulate during the winter to
keep open water. When spring came and I started up the other chamber using
the big pump. I saw only a tad of ammonia for 2 weeks, that I treated with
a tad of Amquell, after which the filter was up and running. I didn't even
use BZT to jump start it. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[[email protected]]

I would think so too. in spring the bacteria are the main culprits for disease.
functioning is all about the temperatures at which enzymes can function. while there
are optimal temps, most enzymes can function with quite a wide range. that the
biobugs arent functioning all that well in ice cold temps is illustrated by teh fact
that the string algae seems to thrive only in spring.. in my ponds and in the local
streams. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:

>I have one comment (at this time) to add to this thread and that's
>regarding bio-media dying when temps go below 50F. My understanding from my
>KHA class was that our bio-media stay active (granted less so) down to 40F.
>At 40F they, like our koi, go dormant (for lack of a better term), the
>bacteria supposedly make a protective film and wait for better times.
>
>With this in mind, last year I left one of my bio-chambers in operation
>thru the winter with the small pump I use to circulate during the winter to
>keep open water. When spring came and I started up the other chamber using
>the big pump. I saw only a tad of ammonia for 2 weeks, that I treated with
>a tad of Amquell, after which the filter was up and running. I didn't even
>use BZT to jump start it. ~ jan
>
>
>See my ponds and filter design:
>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.
>
http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=180090
> we are both in the family Hominidae
> Ingrid
>
>>Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
>>Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
>>Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
anyway).

I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
they're still more colorful.
--
derek

[George]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> about the same relationship as between chimps, gorillas and humans.
>>
> http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=180090
>> we are both in the family Hominidae
>> Ingrid
>>
>>>Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
>>>Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
>>>Both belong to the family Cyprinidae
>
> And Janet could have called me on the relationship of carp to goldfish -
> you're right, it's not that close, but they _can_ interbreed. I've never
> heard of a case of interbreeding between hominids, but it might just be
> that they're all more picky. otoh, someone was promoting the theory
> recently that H. Neanderthalensis never died out, it was just absorbed
> through interbreeding with H. Sapiens (of course, they were the same Genus,
> anyway).

Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with modern
humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_779587.html

> I'll go so far as to take your analogy and say that Koi might bear the same
> relationship to wild carp as Golden Retrievers to wolves (taxonomists might
> still argue, but some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).
> Golden Retrievers are not ideally built to live wild, but occasionally they
> do so anyway, and it only takes a generation of random breeding (and
> selection) to breed right back to a perfectly capable wild animal. Those
> of us who keep Koi in unheated ponds year-round, have almost certainly got
> second-generation Koi that are indistinguishable from wild fish except that
> they're still more colorful.
> --
> derek

[Derek Broughton]

George wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>
Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.
--
derek

[Roy]

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 11:41:11 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>===<>George wrote:
>===<>
>===<>>
>===<>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>===<>> ...
>===<>>
>===<>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>===<>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>===<>>
>===<>Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
>===<>claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
>===<>can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.


Following that scenerio, I know exactly where and who the "missing
link" is....I swear, the person I know has to be that missing link'
he is just one of a kind, just to see him walk and work and the way
he carries himself and his way of thinking he just has to be
it..........and no he is not handicapped in anyway.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[George]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> George wrote:
>
>>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>
> Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
> claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
> can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.
> --
> derek

Oh, that has been one of the standard arguments for quite some time. And some
still hold to it. Truth be told, I don't think all of the evidence completely
eliminates the possiblity, but the DNA evidence is pretty convincing.

[MC]

Even if air is a better insulator than water, you are ignoring the
fact that the water is insulated by the ground and the water on the
top of my pond will not be colder than the air right above my pond.
To insulate with cold air vs. warmer water is the comparison. Another
factor regarding insulation- the water/cover is, in fact, "leak-proof"
since it is resting on the surface. Any barrier you build is going to
have some outside air seeping in.


wrote in message >...
> air is better insulator. that is why our jackets have pockets filled with feathers
> hold dead air and not pockets filled with water. in air the molecules are very far
> apart and dont conduct well. makes em good insulator. Ingrid
>
>
> >Water is a better insulater than air.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>
>Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
>claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
>can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.

Derek you give up too easily. ;o) The website posted just said "probably
never" and the word "theory" was tossed around, no proof there. Personally
all I have to say is the proof is in "Monday Night Football", imnsho. Then
there is always "The Clan of the Cave Bear" theory/book. :o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Crashj]

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 03:51:13 -0400, "George" > wrote:
>"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>> George wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>>
>> Yeah, I never believed it either :-)
<>
>Oh, that has been one of the standard arguments for quite some time. And some
>still hold to it. Truth be told, I don't think all of the evidence completely
>eliminates the possiblity, but the DNA evidence is pretty convincing.

Well, according to Science Daily we got close enough to catch crabs
from them.
http://snipurl.com/9kci
or head lice at least.
Crashj "Uggh, I don't see how you could be attracted to those lousey
N'andy girls!" Johnson
--
Crashj

[[email protected]]

oh.. they are same species. I was talking about "looks" and ability to survive in
the wild. lots of feral dogs make it in the wild. and wolf-dog hybrids are common.
Ingrid

Derek Broughton > wrote:
some do claim wolves and dogs are the same species).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[George]

"Crashj" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 03:51:13 -0400, "George" > wrote:
>>"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>>> George wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>>>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>>>
>>> Yeah, I never believed it either :-)
> <>
>>Oh, that has been one of the standard arguments for quite some time. And some
>>still hold to it. Truth be told, I don't think all of the evidence completely
>>eliminates the possiblity, but the DNA evidence is pretty convincing.
>
> Well, according to Science Daily we got close enough to catch crabs
> from them.
> http://snipurl.com/9kci
> or head lice at least.
> Crashj "Uggh, I don't see how you could be attracted to those lousey
> N'andy girls!" Johnson
> --
> Crashj

You can get head lice from sleeping in the same place where someone who has them
last slept. And just because people have slept in the same place, doesn't mean
that those persons had sex together. The fact is that the DNA doesn't indicate
that there is a close genetic link between the two species.

[George]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>>
>>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>>
>>Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
>>claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
>>can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.
>
> Derek you give up too easily. ;o) The website posted just said "probably
> never" and the word "theory" was tossed around, no proof there. Personally
> all I have to say is the proof is in "Monday Night Football", imnsho. Then
> there is always "The Clan of the Cave Bear" theory/book. :o) ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Ugh!

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>>
>>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>>
>>Yeah, I never believed it either :-) I just remember hearing someone
>>claiming it _could_ have happened. Since I can't even remember who, I
>>can't say how much credibility the guy would have had.
>
> Derek you give up too easily. ;o)

Oh, in that case... (troublemaker :-))

--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Crashj wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 03:51:13 -0400, "George" > wrote:
>>"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>>> George wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Recent genetic evidence suggests that Neanderthal never interbred with
>>>> modern humans. The DNA is too dissimilar.
>>>>
>>> Yeah, I never believed it either :-)
> <>
>>Oh, that has been one of the standard arguments for quite some time. And
>>some
>>still hold to it. Truth be told, I don't think all of the evidence
>>completely eliminates the possiblity, but the DNA evidence is pretty
>>convincing.
>
> Well, according to Science Daily we got close enough to catch crabs
> from them.
> http://snipurl.com/9kci
> or head lice at least.

Yeah, caught that on "As It Happens" on the CBC last night.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

George wrote:

> You can get head lice from sleeping in the same place where someone who
> has them
> last slept. And just because people have slept in the same place, doesn't
> mean
> that those persons had sex together. The fact is that the DNA doesn't
> indicate that there is a close genetic link between the two species.

It's called the "smoking louse", and it is actually H. Sapiens and H.
Erectus that are involved. I didn't get all the details, but the point was
that head lice are _extremely_ specialized parasites. You can catch head
lice from another person a lot more easily than sleeping in the same bed,
but I believe they said that you can't catch head lice from a chimpanzee.

Their theory wasn't that the two species had had sex, just that they had to
have lived in close enough proximity to pass each other the lice, and that
they had to be genetically close enough to share the parasite.
--
derek

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 Derek Broughton > wrote:

>It's called the "smoking louse", and it is actually H. Sapiens and H.
>Erectus that are involved. I didn't get all the details, but the point was
>that head lice are _extremely_ specialized parasites. You can catch head
>lice from another person a lot more easily than sleeping in the same bed,
>but I believe they said that you can't catch head lice from a chimpanzee.
>
>Their theory wasn't that the two species had had sex, just that they had to
>have lived in close enough proximity to pass each other the lice, and that
>they had to be genetically close enough to share the parasite.

Right, so to check into it further, regarding hanky panky, they going to
see if crabs show the similar signs as the head lice. Pretty interesting
around about way to figure out what possibly happened long ago and far
away.

Personally, besides the solid evidence of Monday Night Football, we also
have the nervous sheep in Nevada. ;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Crashj]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:08:05 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>George wrote:
>
>> You can get head lice from sleeping in the same place where someone who
>> has them
>> last slept. And just because people have slept in the same place, doesn't
>> mean
>> that those persons had sex together. The fact is that the DNA doesn't
>> indicate that there is a close genetic link between the two species.
>
>It's called the "smoking louse"
<>
>Their theory wasn't that the two species had had sex, just that they had to
>have lived in close enough proximity to pass each other the lice
Yeah; "Honey, honest I never had sex with that, errrm, woman. We were
just conserving warmth. Really."
[cue the Taxi themesong]
--
Crashj

[MC]

I am now thinking, given the shape/situation of my pond, I may be able
to sink a bucket filled with stones with a PVC pipe sticking out of
it. I would then drap plastic over it and at the side of the pond, use
bricks or something to hold down the plastic. This would be a lot
easier than trying to build some kind of structure over my pond.

"Jerry Donovan" > wrote in message >...
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > I'm using a bubbler and a stock tank heater as a back up if it looks like
> > the bubbler can't handle the job. Remember you are only trying to keep the
> > pond from freezing over completely.
>
> Actually, it doesn't even need to keep a hole open in the ice.
> The main purpose of the bubbler is to make sure that gases
> from rotting vegetation and other wastes do not become
> trapped and build up some concentration level of those gases.
>
> If bubbles are being added to the water and they are escaping
> somewhere (like around the edges), then they will take the gases
> with them.
>
> If the gases are not escaping, the the pond will build up pressure
> until it explodes. Stand back! :-) (not really)
>
> Unless your fish need slightly warmer water (and it will only be
> slightly), the heater is totally unnecessary and a waste of energy.
>
> I live in northern Colorado. On my little pond the bubbles create
> interesting volcano type mounds. When it gets really cold, those
> close up and the gases escape around the edges somewhere.
>
> Jerry

[scubadiverld]

Gareee© wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
MC wrote:

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.

40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at all,
your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.


How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We have a
number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.

In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open with
a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
6-12" below the waterline.
--
derek

Derek,
I just created a pond (rather late in the season) in Hamilton ON.
How do you keep your air pump from getting wet? My max depth of my pond is about 4 1/2 feet. Will 6-12" below the water line be sufficient for me too?
I was looking at the pond de-icers and I am hesitant about running it with the cost of electricity these days if I don't need to. I have about 30 gold fish between 3-5 inches.
Thanks
Lawrence

[Derek Broughton]

scubadiverld wrote:

> Derek Broughton Wrote:

(wow, that was an age old post - I don't remember when I wrote it, but I bet
it was last winter).
>>
>> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>> with
>> a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
>> 6-12" below the waterline.

> I just created a pond (rather late in the season) in Hamilton ON.
> How do you keep your air pump from getting wet?

I just kept it under an upturned bucket. The biggest problem is keeping
water out of the air line. Keep the hose straight, and preferably sloping
downwards all the way from the pump.

> My max depth of my
> pond is about 4 1/2 feet. Will 6-12" below the water line be sufficient
> for me too?

Should be. I was outside St. Thomas. You might be slightly warmer -
depending whereabouts in the Hamilton area you are.

> I was looking at the pond de-icers and I am hesitant about running it
> with the cost of electricity these days if I don't need to. I have
> about 30 gold fish between 3-5 inches.

With 4 1/2' depth you don't even _have_ to have a hole in the ice. You've
got a lot of water for only 30 fish, so I'm confident that the bubbler will
do the job for you.
--
derek

[CanadianCowboy©]

I wouldn't buy a de-icer with the cost of energy these days.
It may be on all the time during those January-February nights.

I keep my pumps running and disconnect any hoses. This way water flows
underneath and generates enough water motion to keep a small hole in my
pond throughout the winter (Toronto, Ontario)


scubadiverld wrote:
> Derek Broughton Wrote:
>
>>Gareee© wrote:
>>-
>>"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...-
>>MC wrote:
>>-
>>2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
>>it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
>>anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
>>"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.-
>>
>>40? _That_ is some amount of heat. If an aquarium heater works at
>>all,
>>your surface temperature is going to be within a degree or two of the
>>freezing point. Forget the heater, use a bubbler.-
>>
>>
>>How big a bubbler should we get for a 12x12 pond, 2-3 foot deep. We
>>have a
>>number of small goldfish, but nothing bigger then 5 inches.-
>>
>>In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>>with
>>a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
>>6-12" below the waterline.
>>--
>>derek
>
>
> Derek,
> I just created a pond (rather late in the season) in Hamilton ON.
> How do you keep your air pump from getting wet? My max depth of my
> pond is about 4 1/2 feet. Will 6-12" below the water line be sufficient
> for me too?
> I was looking at the pond de-icers and I am hesitant about running it
> with the cost of electricity these days if I don't need to. I have
> about 30 gold fish between 3-5 inches.
> Thanks
> Lawrence
>
>

[[email protected]]

I live in Milwaukee, WI zone 5 rarely more than -15oF. I have tried various things
which worked as long as the electricity WAS ON. And then came the electricity to the
whole house was off, or the circuit blew, last year the brand new air pump ($279
reciprocating air pump!!!) simply quit at 2 months of age, the ponds froze shut (3'
and one was 5.5' deep) and I lost all my fish.
Then there is the problem with keeping fish healthy when not fed for 6 months or
longer and having to go thru up and down temp swings and having to go thru low oxygen
in spring, etc. etc.

That was when I decided to cover my ponds.
http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/winters/winter.htm
Just putting plastic (bubble wrap cover is better) over the pond about 1 foot
(slanted or hooped to keep the snow off the cover) keeps the water open with just an
air pump (put air stone just below the surface 3-5 inches) and running the water
pump. I use a bucket filter and let the hose come out just below the surface so it
doesnt shoot up so much as "boil" the surface of the water.

my pond, which is 1.5 feet above ground, 2.5 feet below has a 500 watt "tank" heater
in a casing that protects the liner. that heater is like running 5 light bulbs.
that keeps the water above 50oF for all except 1 month in winter. and my fish eat
(not every day, not as much) all winter long. my lily doesnt die back completely
either. and even if I lose the electricity completely the pond would barely skim
over (in below zero weather) before the electricity comes back on. it is simply
easier on the fish, and my pond was built FOR my fish. Ingrid


>> In S. Ontario, with temperatures down to -25C, I could keep a hole open
>> with a 15W aquarium air pump and one of the long (6") air stones, suspended
>> 6-12" below the waterline.
>> --
>> derek
>
>Derek,
>I just created a pond (rather late in the season) in Hamilton ON.
>How do you keep your air pump from getting wet? My max depth of my
>pond is about 4 1/2 feet. Will 6-12" below the water line be sufficient
>for me too?
>I was looking at the pond de-icers and I am hesitant about running it
>with the cost of electricity these days if I don't need to. I have
>about 30 gold fish between 3-5 inches.
>Thanks
>Lawrence



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